Outline · [ Standard ] · Linear+ Explaining Paganism..., ...to those who are scared

Hi all,

I would like some advice on how to deal with explaining paganism to, basically, those who are scared and are convinced that we worship the devil!

My Dad recently said he was fascinated in Druidry (coincidentally, I'm exploring that path at the moment) so I lent him my book on Pagan Paths by Pete Jennings last night, as well as a back issue of Pagan Dawn which has an article on Druidry in it. Now, I know he'll leave the book and magazine lying around (he never puts anything away!) and I know that his Christian girlfriend will notice them. She has already told my Dad that finding out about Druidry is "dabbling in the occult" and I think she will be even more alarmed to find articles about witchcraft in the magazine! I'm planning ahead here, as I know it will lead to debates between her and my Dad and that she may also approach me about it, probably concerned that I'm leading a wayward path and won't get to heaven, etc. etc.

So, my question is, has anyone dealt with such people before successfully and if so, how? Or if you haven't, how do you think you would go about it? My goal is to show her that paganism is nothing to be afraid of, that I'm not in any spiritual danger, and that I simply have a different set of beliefs to her's. BTW, she is a fundamentalist Christian who believes the Bible to the letter, i.e. doesn't believe in evolution, tells my Dad off for gardening on a Sunday (!) etc.

Thanks in advance for your opinions and views,

Suzanne

Sorry hon, you haven't a hope in hell - pardon the pun.

While most xtains will be happy and interested to enter into a debate, and can accept our point of view.. it's just not in the vocabulary of a fundamentalist.

You can talk until you're blue in the face and she will still believe that you are being led astray by the Devil, whether you believe in him or not. Such xtains believe the Devil is just making you believe he doesn't exist. And how on earth does one go about arguing against that??

After all if she won't accept scientific theories... do you really think she's going to be amendable to spiritual ones that her understanding of the bible will tell her are completely wrong. Far as she's concerned you are going to hell.. and if your father continues to "dabble" probably him as well.

You can explain all you like that Witchcraft is based around learning skills.. and has nothing whatsoever to do with religion.. but she won't hear of it. You can explain the ideas behind the various pagan paths and she simply will not listen.

I'm afraid you'll just have to accept that - until something shakes her utter belief a little, she will not even consider for a moment anything that is in contridiction of her religion.

Suzanne, Very is right. The only possibly course of action you can realistically take is recommending your dad's girlfriend to a good psychiatrist!

I just hope, for your sake, that she doesn't try and convert him - because the "path" of fundamental christianity is definitely one of crazy paving!

Othila

Hi all,

I would like some advice on how to deal with explaining paganism to, basically, those who are scared and are convinced that we worship the devil!

My Dad recently said he was fascinated in Druidry (coincidentally, I'm exploring that path at the moment) so I lent him my book on Pagan Paths by Pete Jennings last night, as well as a back issue of Pagan Dawn which has an article on Druidry in it. Now, I know he'll leave the book and magazine lying around (he never puts anything away!) and I know that his Christian girlfriend will notice them. She has already told my Dad that finding out about Druidry is "dabbling in the occult" and I think she will be even more alarmed to find articles about witchcraft in the magazine! I'm planning ahead here, as I know it will lead to debates between her and my Dad and that she may also approach me about it, probably concerned that I'm leading a wayward path and won't get to heaven, etc. etc.

So, my question is, has anyone dealt with such people before successfully and if so, how? Or if you haven't, how do you think you would go about it? My goal is to show her that paganism is nothing to be afraid of, that I'm not in any spiritual danger, and that I simply have a different set of beliefs to her's.  BTW, she is a fundamentalist Christian who believes the Bible to the letter, i.e. doesn't believe in evolution, tells my Dad off for gardening on a Sunday (!) etc.

Thanks in advance for your opinions and views,

Suzanne

Ok, so if she is a fundamentalist Christian then the best course of action is to meet her where she is at. There is no way that she will be able to accept that Pagan practise is anything BUT of the devil whilst holding to her scriptural teachings. So she isn't likely to change her beliefs on that, and a respectful approach would not try to change her beliefs. However, there are aspects of her beliefs that can be used to reduce the stress levels and modify how she brings those beliefs into her behaviour to others.

The Christian faith would suggest that if she stays firm in her trust of Jesus then she will be safe. So she has nothing to fear personally. That's the first stage to keeping her calm.

Second stage- Ephesians 6:10-18 describes the Armour of God, what Christians symbolically 'wear' when engaging in Spiritual warfare (don't be surprised that she will see the situation as one requiring spiritual warfare because she will believe the devil is at work with his deceptions). Ephesians 6:10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. quite clearly indicates that the warfare is not directed against people. So invite her to pray if she is concerned, and suggests that she demonstrates a living witness rather than enters into conflict as '2 Timothy 2:23Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.' clearly suggests a more constructive approach to discusing and addressing matters if they must be discussed. After all, Francis of Assissi was known to have said “Preach the Gospel often, and when necessary use words.�

That is how I would deal with the situation anyway. But don't bring any of it up unless you have to.

Hope that helps.

BB

Mike

I would go with Cern's suggestion (as someone who runs the Pagan and Christian Moot website I definitely bow to his knowledge in knowing how to handl this one!), but I would prepare yourself for a reaction like the one Very has outlined unfortunately

I think all you can do, if it comes to it, is explain what paganism means to you, and if she insists on proselytizing to you, explain that you respect her right to her beliefs and would be grateful if she would do you the same courtesy. And agree to disagree and hopefully, leave it at that.

How odd!! I was telling Cern just last Tuesday that I have a friend who doesn't believe in evolution too

He is a lovely guy, but when I tried to explain evolution to him, he just laughed at me and told me it wasn't real after that I was so stunned that I couldn't think of anything else to say??

I agree with the others - you're never going to change her mind and it would be nice if you could respect each others paths. I find to respect someones path you have to know a little about it first ... you may want to suggest this is what your dad is doing with you and your path??

TD.x.

I don't think that there is anything that you can say, I think its a case of actions speaking louder than words. I've worked with along side a great many commited Christians who struggle to accept that I am a Pagan because of the propoganda that has be dished up about what Pagans are and do.

I think that over a period of time, when people get to know me, they have to re-evaluate what they think they now about Paganism. The image of me running about in the nud, making burnt offerings of babies really doesn't tally.

Eventually they get interested in asking what it is I actually believe, then usually we can get into some sort of meaningful dialogue. Timing is everything, people have to be ready to be open about a differing views on spirituality, otherssie you might just as well be shouting in the wind.

Q

He is a lovely guy, but when I tried to explain evolution to him, he just laughed at me and told me it wasn't real    after that I was so stunned that I couldn't think of anything else to say??


TD.x.

This bit made me almost wet myself

How a human being cannot get his head round evolution , especially when he grew in the womb, and the ability to reproduce is about the evolution and propogation of the next generation ( hope that makes sence , did to me )

Silly man ...Az

I'm afraid i also have to agree that you stand a welks chance in a super nova... I've tried explaining my faith to Fundy christians and you might aswell go and bang your head against a brick wall.

Only a slightly more constructive note, if you can convince her to listen the Church of All Worlds site has a good Q&A section that may be useful for her to read.

http://www.caw.org/articles/cawquest.html

what is a pagan? paganus, latin relating to civilian (hence not a soldier of god). a worshipper of a defunct religious ideal. an uncivilised or uneducated human being.
thats what the dictionary says anyway.

How odd!!  I was telling Cern just last Tuesday that I have a friend who doesn't believe in evolution too   

He is a lovely guy, but when I tried to explain evolution to him, he just laughed at me and told me it wasn't real    after that I was so stunned that I couldn't think of anything else to say??

I agree with the others - you're never going to change her mind and it would be nice if you could respect each others paths.  I find to respect someones path you have to know a little about it first ... you may want to suggest this is what your dad is doing with you and your path??

TD.x.

I found myself in that situation on Wednesday night. I work with two born agains and one of them is a preacher. He went mental because I said I thought that evolution was more likely than anything else put forward. He was ranting even though I was like 'look, I'm not being funny but you have your beliefs and I don't agree with them and I never will.' He carried on and so I just went and had a wee because I got bored with it. It made him shut up though. Not listening to them seems to be the best way. He even went and told an 'inspirational' story to another staff member that I pretended to ignore.

What was the inspirational story?

A woman from his church went and did aid work after the tsunami somewhere in one of the countries affected. He was mortified that she wasn't allowed to talk about God or try to convert them (and rightfully so! Anyone will swallow any religious crap if it means they survive). But according to him, the natives 'saw something in her' that they didn't have and they all came to see her all the time and befriended her. Now call me a cynic but I think it was more likely they saw a rich western woman who had the fiscal potential of helping them. I didn't say anything.

The other day he was talking about praying for people and I told him I didn't agree with it...cue explosion . He didn't like the analogy to curses. Just like he didn't like my question about where Cain's wife came from if Adam, Eve and Cain were the only people knocking about at that time.

Suzanne, there is no way of explaining Paganism to people like that. They're too scared of going to hell or coming across anything that might shake their (probably not so strong faith) to even consider things other than what they're told by their preachers or the bible. I've not told people about my beliefs at work because it's not worth it, they'll never understand and I think my reputation may have preceeded me from other work areas - so I think they know through gossip - hence the trying to preach at me thing. But I can still get my hits in, get under their skins and get my little kicks that way

Well...got to have some satisfaction when you get fire and brimstone more or less every shift

He carried on and so I just went and had a wee because I got bored with it. It made him shut up though.

Is it just me or does anyone else here get an image of elswyth urinating on the preacher?

Though Christian fundamentalists are a bit of a brainwashed lot, I found generally the Pagan approach from the standpoint of "natural law" will leave your average Christian in quite a dilemma. As for the nonsense about human and animal sacrifice, I say "hey, that was a thing of the past even in the bible, if you remember correctly". As for the devil, I can see where the old Celtic beliefs could come in conflict with christians, being as the "horned god" is what the old church modelled the devil after. If they have a problem with pantheism, they simply have to bear in mind that the Hindus and Chinese are also pantheistic (no less entitled to religious tolerance!)

Is it just me or does anyone else here get an image of elswyth urinating on the preacher?

Not my bag baby!

Now there's a way to get fired if there ever was one

Hi all,
I would like some advice on how to deal with explaining paganism to, basically, those who are scared and are convinced that we worship the devil!
snip
So, my question is, has anyone dealt with such people before successfully and if so, how?
Suzanne

It is possible. But is it worth it? Be careful. Only with a friend or close acquaintance I think. And it is not for fun. It takes a deep sense of responsibility as you change some-ones psychological make-up drastically. I am not a wiccan and I believe we have powers for purpose and can choose when to use them.

I reached inside one woman who was making her kids ill with such fears of the world and made sure she felt me do it. I told her I was going to do it and had an agreement already in place that even if she thought it was a 'devil's' power, her existing respect for me as a human being until that point would mean that she listened and discussed rather than rejected out of hand.

She was very frightened when she felt my hand in her insides, to the point of shaking and not being able to talk well. However I then moved to a modality similar to reiki and calmed her, she felt that too. I then withdrew my energy and offered her the option to reach into me. Her fear and disbelief acting in antagonism to the psychic reality almost stopped that but lo, she did feel a connection and her intuitive response was one of joy! I felt it in the connection myself and made sure she accepted and recognised it. She was able to do that, as she was deluded by xtianity but otherwise honest.

I pointed out that the natural emotional response to psychic joining should be pleasure rather than fear and discussed the ability to use such a power as healing as much as a negative energy. She grew to accept the premiss that then we have choice and will, from that I discussed how it is more personally empowering to work it out for yourself rather than accept the doctrine of others. It brings you closer to deity if your needs are to have such in your life. We also discussed the 'devil' as an archetype of the subconscious, as a repressed energy and so on. Basic craft discussion for beginners. She is now a healer.

So it can be done. Not by 'pagan' argument using the intellect alone - but by using your own skills and magick as a witch, if you are one, or as a seeker of truth if you are not. Just the 'intent' will do for a start, especially if it is based on your own conviction of the other's worth, of your own balance and is coupled with a sense of responsibility toward the other. In other words I am saying that your will and belief and intent will make it work if you truly want it, where words will always fail. If she is going to otherwise be a valued part of your family, is loved by your father and you respect her, then attempt it.
jape

Or alternatively using your skills as a Witch could just send them even more down the fundie path.

well I'm with the pessimists on this one. My in-laws are Christians, and believe me its a lost cause. Lets face it, you have to be completely close minded to uphold a belief that has so many holes in it, it resembles a sieve. I would go with the approach of not bothering to defend yourself at all, why should you? You don't go around asking Christians to justify themselves everytime you meet them do you?

well I'm with the pessimists on this one

I'll have you know I'm a realist! LOL

well I'm with the pessimists on this one

I'll have you know I'm a realist! LOL

I'm with the realists then!!

I had the same JW come to my flat for about 3 months. Every saturday morning. I used to quite enjoy it.

My best arguement which seems to get them every time goes along these lines.

God ceated all things. Says so in Genisis right? Right. So God is purely good and has no evil in (him) ? Right. So where did the devil come from?

At this point they start to bluster.

They either have to accept one of three things.

A) God did not create all things. ( so that evil is not the creation of god )
That God created all things but is not purely good.
C) That the Bible is wrong.

Either way it seriously blows any arguement in favour of Christianity out of the water.

They either have to accept one of three things.

A) God did not create all things. ( so that evil is not the creation of god )
That God created all things but is not purely good.
C) That the Bible is wrong.

Either way it seriously blows any arguement in favour of Christianity out of the water.

[/quote]

A great way to deal with them

As someone who until quite recently considered themselves to be an evangelical charismatic christian (fundy!) let me add my viewpoint...
I believed that pagans were worshippers of devils and demons and were going to hell. I believed the Bible to be literal truth and didn't believe in evolution (depsite being a biology teacher!) If anyone tried to convince me otherwise I would believe I had to wage spiritual warfare and oppose the lies of the demons!! God, how arrogant eh!
It was only a major crisis of fiath that broke the 'spell' of that mindset, suddenly it didn't make sense any more, it didn't work. I found myself reading about NOah's ark to my 3 year old son and I couldn't continue as I no longer beleived it!
I think this is probably the only way that evangelical christians will change - through a crisis where the construct of the divine they have made no longer works and the dogma comes falling down as it is seen as wanting!!

It was only a major crisis of fiath that broke the 'spell' of that mindset, suddenly it didn't make sense any more, it didn't work. I found myself reading about NOah's ark to my 3 year old son and I couldn't continue as I no longer beleived it!

You're not on your own there - I was brought up as a christian (methodist) but realised during childhood that I didn't believe in it. I, personally, don't understand [/I]'blind faith', but do fully respect the right of others to have this - it's just when they try to 'convert the heathens'[I] I have a problem.

Going back to the topic, the only person I have explained paganism to is my partner and my mom, but I knew they would understand anyway!
I did have some christian friends but they dropped me like a hot brick when I let slip to one of them that I had pagan beliefs! I mean, I had tolerated theirs for 8 years, a little give and take here - sheesh!

You don't say what age group you are. Before anyone begins to rant, if you're still living at home & dad's serious about his lady friend, then you do have a certain duty to him not to "rock the boat" too much. That said, you have a greater duty to be true to yourself - whatever path you may decide to follow. And I include Xtianity in that! Eventually you might end up without anyone and this is where faith can be a help. We are all on our own, at the end of the day. (Gods, that sounds morose and gloomy and pompous - sorry!)
Regarding Herself: I personally wouldn't waste my breath. She won't understand, & worse, she may view you as her special soul to be "saved". Been there, bought the T. shirt. Not worth the effort.
Faith is a very personal thing. Looks like you may need to keep it that way, though your dad sounds nice!
Whatever you decide, good luck. :>)