Outline · [ Standard ] · Linear+ How Do You Perceive The Ultimate?, Spirits, God or both?

My personal belief is everything has an individual spirit which can be tapped into and as everything at a fundamental level is the same every spirit in some respects is the same or connected which ultimatly means everything in this amazing world is connected, I find that gives me a nice warm feeling inside

My wonderment of the day is how do YOU perceive the world to be on a fundamental/ultimate level, do you distinguish Spirit from Godess/God or see them in the same light?

My personal belief is everything has an individual spirit which can be tapped into

Agreed

and as everything at a fundamental level is the same every spirit in some respects is the same or connected

Nope. Completely disagree. I see everything as separate and distinct and discrete. And that includes the Gods. And the spirits of the land, rivers, trees, animals, etc. I don't see an ultimate "one" at all - but rather a collection of several which is to me a source of wonderment

which ultimatly means everything in this amazing world is connected

Well, yes, I believe that everything IS connected but more through a kind of web-idea (but without the central point/spider (for which read "one-ness")) Rather like having a group of separate people in a room: the commonality is that they're all in the same place, but they're all completely different and individual.

My wonderment of the day is how do YOU perceive the world to be on a fundamental/ultimate level, do you distinguish Spirit from Godess/God or see them in the same light?

See above!

My personal belief is everything has an individual spirit which can be tapped into

Yep, though I don't necesarilly like the term 'tapped' I prefer 'tuned'

and as everything at a fundamental level is the same every spirit in some respects is the same or connected which ultimatly means everything in this amazing world is connected, I find that gives me a nice warm feeling inside  

I believe that while there is one cosmic spirit and that the spirits of all things are part of this, I also believe that each spirit, being, god, tree, rock, conceptual being is also distinct and self determining.

My wonderment of the day is how do YOU perceive the world to be on a fundamental/ultimate level, do you distinguish Spirit from Godess/God or see them in the same light?

I see the universe as hung on a web spun from the cosmic spirit, each node is a being, god, whatever. The spirit itself is composed of/composes the individual spirits (souls, whatever) but also exceeds the sum of its parts.

All things are connected via the web, gods are seperate distinct beings (though I believe that many gods exist some are known in different forms and by different names accross the many cultures of the world) who are more attuned to the cosmic spirit as a whole, which were mere humans are not equipped to perceive in its whole (we just get little glimpses).

That enough?

Kev

It's kind of hard to articulate... suffice to say that the only thing I can say for sure about existence (given the fallibility of human perception & other such complicating factors) is that everything exists, somewhere. The Ultimate and the Universe are one and the same; infinite, insensate &, in some barely percetible way, alive with the constant state of change. I exist (I must do, in an infinite Universe), and there are bits of the universe that call themselves Eris. Or that I call Eris when I want to believe in something. Er.

Pondering the Infinite doesn't half make my brain hurt.

My personal belief is everything has an individual spirit which can be tapped into and as everything at a fundamental level is the same every spirit in some respects is the same or connected which ultimatly means everything in this amazing world is connected, I find that gives me a nice warm feeling inside  

I have to say that I see and percieve things very differently. I may tap into the energy of the woods, but i most certainly do not tap into my Gods, that almost feels blasphamous! I also do not agree that every spirit or God is the same because in my experience they are not. And as a polythesist there is no way all my Gods are the same God, that's just wrong.

However everything in this world is connected I agree on that

I would agree mainly with Cos. I think yes there is one huge cosmic spirit/energy/divine and everything is connected via that. We, including gods, all have our individual stampmarks within that connection. I don't think gods are " higher " than us in the sense we ordinarily perceive but they have different roles and abilities. Everyone and everything is a necessary part of the system, everything has its role to fulfil. Being a part of something greater and connected doesnt make us all the same, I agree

Part of participating in rituals solitary or otherwise, or working magic, is what I would call touching the divine, tapping into that connection. Use the force, Luke

The web idea has always been my preception too.
For a while I did wonder if the God's etc were just the same 1 or 2 and showed us whichever facet we required, or appeared to us in a manner that would be meaninful to us.

Now tho, I really do lean toward there being many Gods, in part I think its part of the shirking off of xtain thought that seeps into the ole brain cells whether one is xtain or not, and naturally, it just seems right to me. I haven't had any in my face Godly encounters, perahps because I haven't really seeked any out.

However, the past few months of travelling, I've become much more aware of nature, noticed animals coming incredibly close to me. I have pictures of New Forest Ponies rifling through the back of my espace looking for food - while I was sat in there! Pictures of squirrels, robins, pigs, ducks, geese, deer and so forth.

The New Forest felt very special to me, and I saw so much wildlife I was stunned. I've woken up with a robin sat eyeballing me on my duvet, I've been thoroughly scolded by a robin - in fact I seem to attract robins! lol.

Whether these animals were somehow Gods, spirits or whatever, I really don't know, I just sat and enjoyed, fed them and loved the feeling of being surrounded by nature once again and that feeling also solidified my sense that yes everything is all connected, life is a balance and one way or the other all things are connected in the production of the whole - but that does not lessen the sum of the parts, nor take away their individuality and autonmony, as paradoxical as that may seem.

Am I the only one who thought the subtitle read 'Spiders, Gods, or both?'

Cuz I gotta tell ya, my first thought was 'yeeeugh'.

Dryad

Spider is nice,
patiently waits
till threads are pulled
and eats you in a trice!

Every thing has a spirit and (in my little world) has the same rights as everything else. When you boil us down to component parts we are all atoms everything is made of atoms so (my view again) everything must have a soul/spirit (even concrete). For me I cant belive that this form I currently inhabit is so unique in the larger picture, If (as I do) you belive that we are all on an path of learning and at one time we were all rocks/concrete.

I know it may sound a bit screwy but I'm signed up to the whole Gia thing we all belonge to the same basic construct.

Walk in light


Moonwolf

Perhaps there are individual entities which, when working together to one end become one divine intelligence or conciousness. They remain individual but their individuality becomes meaningless when they merge in some way. When people or spirits and people connect and interact to bring about an outcome its as if their act of will sends ripples throughout this 'universal conciousness' bringing about a change. Perhaps at the point of joining they become one. I can't see a problem with a duality of individualism linked by an overarching spiritual conciousness which we can choose to tap into or not. Here self-will comes in- we can choose not to participate but we loose our chance to cause change ourselves and must ride out any changes wrought by those that are participating (and have no right to complain if we don't like it!). In this way we are not being punished for not participating, we are just not having our voice heard.

I think that thinking all things are one all of the time is an uncomfortable concept because it feels like we are being robbed of self will and individuality.

As for gods and goddesses with individuality I don't know and I find it maddening as there are so many, they are all very high maintenance, can be pretty threatening and usually require an act of faith, surrender and adoration before even considering letting your crops grow, or not torturing you for all eternity for eating something on the wrong day etc. I am not anti-god(s) and am open to there being a god(s), but many of them are so unlikeable (if anyone can help me with this one.......)

Thanks for reading

I believe that each Goddess and God is separate, their own divine being with their own identity and associations. I like the idea of a connectivity in the spiritual realm, but with so many personalities (do you think Brighid, Hecate and Thoth would sit down for tea together?!), I can't see the Goddesses and God as single entities. But it's all about personal belief, so there's no definitive answer.

As for gods and goddesses with individuality I don't know and I find it maddening as there are so many, they are all very high maintenance, can be pretty threatening and usually require an act of faith, surrender and adoration before even considering letting your crops grow, or not torturing you for all eternity for eating something on the wrong day etc. I am not anti-god(s) and am open to there being a god(s), but many of them are so unlikeable  (if anyone can help me with this one.......)

Thanks for reading

I think that the Gods are a funny amalgamation of their own personalities, and those we impose upon them. And more often than not, the bits we impose upon them are aspects of our own frail human nature. Maybe it's not actually the Gods who demand such stringent devotions, but the desires of man who wishes that they had the power to demand such devotions for themselves?

You could also argue that it's simply the Gods demanding due respect and honour for continuing to help in our lives where we've reached the limit of our own capabilities?? Payment if you like, but with different terms and conditions than we humans use in business dealings with each other...

I've read all your comments and agree with a few of them. I am from a pantheist background and am reading a book called The Field (about the Zero Point Field) at the moment which comes from a scienific angle but ...

... creates a picture of an interconnected universe and a new scientific theory which makes sense of 'supernatural 'phenomena.

It replaces the reductive world view of modern man - a life of separation and isolation - with a view of connection.
It lifts many areas out of the realm of mystery and into the realm of hard science,
It offers hard evidence for what you may always have understood intuitively but could never explain - about the world, about many unexplained phenomenon, about your own extraordinary experiences.

Not my usual reading matter I'll admit, but I'm hanging in there as I hope to learn more about a scientifically proven state (ZPF) identified through Quantum Physics which may explain a lot of what pagans sense intuitively.

Discard this if it adds nothing to your debate.

L,P&L

Hello all

I think NorthStar has raised an important issue with quantum physics.

In QP it is interesting to find that the way in which a scientific experiment is carried out may effect the outcome to such an extent that it is impossible to observe 'reality' at a discrete point at a single moment, and if we dont do the experiment we can't make an observation anyway.

My intuitive side makes me wonder if the way in which we perceive reality is driven by the way in which we try to observe reality. In other words the way we choose to approach 'ultimate reality' drives ultimate reality in a certain (unpredictable) direction. QP also hints at the duality of things or at least the existence of things in multiple states of existence/non-existence (Schrodinger's cat). Here again we can't predict existence or non-existence until we make an observation so up until that point a thing both exists and does not exist, but when we observe that a thing exists it may simply seem to exist because we have looked at it(in a certain way).

So I do wonder if the way in which we look at the universe effects the outcome of reality, and if so this suggests that our every action, observation and approach effects how the dice will land. So we may be connected to a central reality and can influence the reality we observe, which suggests interconnectedness with a 'personal power' to effect reality. We may exist in two states simultaneously- part of the whole and individual at the same time, until we view things from a specific standpoint (perhaps a theological view) where we appear to be one or the other.

I dont' know about everyone else but QP makes my head ache, but I find it interesting and scary at the same time (and I don't get 99.9% of it).

Hi Tacitus,

At the risk of making your head ache more.....

Astronomers have know for decades that there is an all pervading energy field spread throughout the universe - It is the background radiation left over from the big bang (it is at microwave frequency and about 2-3 degrees Kelvin), being all pervading this could easily being seen linking up the universe in a web of interconnectedness.

It might also be interesting to ask; can we tune into this energy field to sense distant events? can we use it to influence events? we might even ask if it has any form of 'consciousness'?.

Ponder on, Steve.

Okay,this is a heavy subject for a newbie to the site such as myself to get involved in but it'll be interesting to finally put my current beliefs to virtual paper,so to speak

Right.....I believe that there is a sentience that has become symbiotic to living matter so it can experience the material world and learn. As a result the souls of all living things are essentially tiny pieces of this sentience-much like the individual cells that make up a whole living creature.
Therefore in essence we are all God and as a result we all are able to tap into the power/ability of this sentience,hence the reason we can do magick,create tulpas,impose our will on reality around us,etc. It is also why we are all connected together and with the living things around us,and why I believe it's wrong to kill other living things unnecessarily,as cutting a life short deprives it of the chance to learn and experience.

And when we finally do die? We go back to the source and are absorbed back into the whole,where our life experiences are assimilated into all the other information,and we're eventually sent out again to live another life,and so the cycle goes on and on.

Anyway,that's the very bare bones of it.I hope my thoughts have been fairly clear and I don't sound too much like a crackpot!

Thanks!

well if you're a crackpot so am I.

My beliefs are not so different from yours. They should be further up the thread (or scattered around the site) but basically everthing has a soul which is part of the soul of the universe. At death they return to source etc..

the only major differences are that I see the cosmic soul as bigger than its components and perhaps though we are all linked to the 'divine' our ability to access it is limited compared with beings up the chain we would call gods

Kev

the only major differences are ...........and perhaps though we are all linked to the 'divine' our ability to access it is limited compared with beings up the chain we would call gods

Kev

Yeah,we'd definitely differ on the latter. I think we are limited only by how much we fully comprehend the truth of our reality,much like the Buddhist concept of enlightenment I suppose.
As for gods,I consider them to be thoughtforms created by human beings,abeit ones that are more well realised and powerful than your average tulpa. I think they have their uses but I'm not sure yet whether I'd credit them with the ability to be entirely sentient and independent from humanity and the collective conciousness that sustains them.

Glad to see that I'm not entirely alone in what I believe in though!

Yeah,we'd definitely differ on the latter.   I think we are limited only by how much we fully comprehend the truth of our reality,much like the Buddhist concept of enlightenment I suppose.

Well I'm not saying we can't know more. Its just that man strait out of the box needs to install some upgrades in order to open our minds to that larger reality. Partly this means keeping the inner child alive as the more we 'mature' through life the smaller the apperture we can experience it through becomes. The rest involves working to ease it open further and learning to focus it.

As for gods,I consider them to be thoughtforms created by human beings,abeit ones that are more well realised and powerful than your average tulpa. I think they have their uses but I'm not sure yet whether I'd credit them with the ability to be entirely sentient and independent from humanity and the collective conciousness that sustains them.

Well I am still open to my gods being mere figments of my subconsious mind, but as I perceive them as real I feel its not a good idea to tell them that to their face

Glad to see that I'm not entirely alone in what I believe in though!

eee its strange how many folk are as mad as I am

Kev

I have always though there was a kind of conservation of energy principle behind life, life-force can be converted or transferred but never destroyed. It works for every other kind of energy so why not life.

As for spirits and gods, I see the spirits of people, animals, plants, places, rocks, rivers, lakes, forests, special objects (swords, staves etc.) as being composed of this life-force. I have always thought of the gods and godesses as individuals who can manipulate this energy at will. I also like the idea that the gods draw their power from belief (as found in Terry Pratchett's Small Gods).

"As for spirits and gods, I see the spirits of people, animals, plants, places, rocks, rivers, lakes, forests, special objects..."

thanks badger bob.... that helps me towards my definition i was struggling somewhat with having to write down my beleifs in the deities!

amongst a collection of what has already been commited to virtual print here (including the universal ball of life force that we all return to) that the souls and spirits and the essence of life that i can feel in everything are all part of the god and the goddess. as am i, hence that is why i am able to connect with them more strongly when surrounded by objects that also carry the essence, therefore outdoor ritual is where my heart lies, however i often fear being discovered by hikers, ramblers and dog walkers!

I believe everything has a spirit or energy, in a similar way to Bob I think but it extends to all things; yes concrete, glass and even plastic although the further away from its natural state somehow there is less energy that I perceive. I believe everything is interconnected.

Despite never having believed in a god or goddess I strongly believe in spirits (as opposed to spirit- hope that makes sense!) but I like Bob's thoughts about gods being able to manipulate the energies, it seems to make a lot of sense to me.

Hm ... what is the answer to life the universe and everything? I think 42 is about as sane an answer as anything else.

We all of us, only have our own senses to tell us about our world and our universe. Including any 6th sense we may have, any soul and any spirit. Because it is against these and against what we have experienced that we measure our own truth about the world. In a sense we all live in our own universe unique to us.

So I would say that the gods are what we have experienced of them, and just because our experiences are all different does not mean to say that any of them are any less valid or true.

what that means for atheists I am not quite sure. maybe in their universes there are no gods.

As to my own little universe Odin Thor Frey Freya Frigg Niord Tyr Hella and Idun seem to have some influence. (among others) But even they cannot escape the web of wyrd.

I don't think you can separate the divine from the physical - for me god/spirit inhabits everything and is inseperable from everything. It sometimes looks separate but deep down it isn't. (In my opinion)

I read something recently about ice-bergs, they look like different lumps of ice from the surface but underneath the water they are often connected. So you can choose to work with god as it appears to you - seperate deities with their own personalities and specialities, or going under the water, with the great soul we are all a part of. I don't think either is better and I think the reason why there are so many myths and tales told about deities is because the soul or us humans need this kind of experience/metaphor.

But to me the idea of exisiting, individual deity certainly is a metaphor, a projection, an archetype - whatever you want to call it. They don't exist in any concrete sense for me - which makes me different to people who worship deities and form a relationship with them as distinct, separate individuals with their own histories and personalities.
Having said that, these metaphors aren't just ways of understanding - as ideas, images and narratives, they are very powerful and contain the same aspect of the divine that I believe everything else does.

It's very simillar to what Hindus believe about the nature of the divine, i think - most Hindus aren't strong polytheists but see deities as a metaphor, or as a projection coming from a larger, ineffable divine.

Good topic!

Oak

*takes deep breath*

Ok, I'm a hard polytheist in that I believe that Gods and Goddesses exist as separate beings and not aspects of any Great God or Goddess. In fact the ubiquitous 'the Goddess' winds me up because I think people don't think about it enough and tend to just put it all down to 'the Goddess'. I also sort of think 'well which one?'. I also think that Gods are (maybe) formed of belief and sustained by belief. Which does tend to beg the question, what distinguishes a God from a thought form? Looking at it this way, Jehovah is not only a jealous git but in telling his followers to forsake all other Gods for him, he's pretty much cornering the market on belief and power. Clever move but gittish from a so called 'god of love'.

At the same time, I'm sort of pantheistic too. How do I come to that conclusion? How the hell can anyone be polytheist and pantheist all at the same time? Well this is where it gets more than a little wyrd - I kid you not. Wyrd in one sense is fate, but not in the sense generally held today. Ok so you have things that are going to happen, that the nornir have woven in regardless but generally speaking we make our own wyrd and our own wyrd happens as a result of our orlog (who we are, our past experiences, ancestral memories and you could even say genetics). But in another sense - perhaps a more modern sense (but makes sense anyway), wyrd is also perceived as a web which connects everyone and everything. This would be part of this greater wyrd that the nornir play with. Now in this web, everything, the Gods, us, spirits, wights, ancestors, everything with a soul or mind is in it. So in this sense, a belief in wyrd is sort of pantheistic. To worship wyrd would be like worshipping the 362 bus service to Wigan. It's not open to negociation.

As for where spirits and stuff come in. I think that Yggdrasil is not a literal tree map of the words, I think it's different levels of consciousness and through various methods, those levels can be accessed and you can interact with other beings. I believe that there is another world sort of superimposed over Midgard (middle earth - our reality) and that's the world of spirit and wights and fae and whatever you believe is out there existing on our world but *not*. I believe that we call the shots here on midgard with the dead and these other beings so long as we're not crippled by fear and doubt (how much easier is it to kick something out when you're confident?), however I think that if you end up somehow dragged onto the territory of the dead, this other world superimposed, then I think you don't call the shots and can end up in a lot of trouble.

Right that's enough from me. I bet I've done a right number with the confusion.

In fact the ubiquitous 'the Goddess' winds me up because I think people don't think about it enough and tend to just put it all down to 'the Goddess'. I also sort of think 'well which one?'.

Elsewhere there was an article from Starhawk asking 'What would the Goddess do?"

Well mine would ride out into the field and make bloody war on those that oposed her.

I don't think that's what Starhawk had in mind

It fascinates me how someone as feminist as Starhawk shys away from that particular 'aspect'

I agree with all of the above (yes, seriously) after all, that's what relativity is all about.

oooerr, I found this on a sleepless night....

How do I perceive the ultimate?

Well, I think things in general are separate but they are also connected together into a living breathing system. I think at some level in our consciousness these links can be accessed by empathy, psychicness, dreams and link to one another. I think that this happens often for a lot of us but I think that alot of people ignore this, or bury it or just reject it outright because it seems scary or it just doesn't fit with their view of the world.

I also think that this capacity to link with others can be turned inwards and link with aspects of ourselves that is hidden from us.

I think existence is chaotic, changing and dynamic. How we came to exist is, imo, a product of this chaos.

We don't cease to exist when we die, but we do change, our bodys rot, our energy is released. Does the consciousness go with it? Does that stay intact? I dont know. possibly, I've had a few experiences that suggests that that might be the case. but not enough for me to draw any real conclusions.

Dieties? ooooh that's a tough one for me. I have tried seeing this idea from the point of view of someone who sees dieties as separate distinct individuals and as one ie the goddess. Neither makes a lot of sense to me at an experiential level. and yet there are one or two experiences that says "yes, there could be something in it" and those experiences would tend to make me lean more to dieties as separate individuals. but then could it be an ancestor? And then there is this single experience where I sensed something "all around me". I guess I am still pondering about this whole issue really.

Then there's spirits of the land and such...and well strangely, given all my problems of the above, I don't have a problem accepting that there is some kind of spirit living in forests, rivers and other places cos well I can sense them quite clearly, even though I don't have a particular name for any of them.

well, that helped alot to clear a little of the muddly bits of my mind.

fizz