I've just been reading the transcript of the JK Rowling interview that was broadcast on Radio Four recently. This quote really stood out for me:

"I remember being in America a few years ago and Halloween was approaching and three television programs in a row were talking about how to explain to children it wasn't real. Now there's a reason why they create these stories and we have always created these stories and the reason why we have had these pagan festivals and the reason why even the church allows a certain amount of fear. We need to feel fear, and we need to confront that in a controlled environment, that's a very important part of growing up I think. And the child that has been protected from dementors in fiction, I would argue, is much more likely to fall prey to them later in life in reality. And also, what are we saying to children who do have scary and disturbing faults? We're saying that's wrong. And that's not natural and it's not something that's intrinsic to the human condition that they're in some way odd or ill."

I'll admit I never thought of Halloween that way, but it's a very valid psychological point.

It also got me thinking about the view of paganism among the mainstream public... are the "muggles" afraid of us? Is that what lies beneath the "you're going to hell" attitudes of a hardcore few or even the superstitions of those who say we shouldn't be dabbling in the occult, as they might put it? And if so, how do you think we can best redress the public view of paganism? In fact, do we want to? Do you prefer to confront such attitudes head on or do you, as do many of JK Rowling's wizards and witches - like to simply stay out of sight of the muggles wherever possible?

Obviously it depends on the individual, but I would say it's pretty obvious that anyone who denies and condemns something as fervently as some of the more fundamental "muggles" do with any religion but their own lives in fear of it. I was brought up to believe that people fear what they don't understand, and lash out in attack when they are afraid. Look at the way wild animals behave towards humans - they stay hidden most of the time; usually the only circumstances under which they attack are if they feel threatened, or feel their cubs are threatened.

Also, I would say the role of stories, and in modern times film, is without question to give people experience of things they aren't exposed to in their everyday life, and to teach them to confront their fears. (I was discussing this exact point with my mother last night...) I read a great many horror stories as a child and although I had a lot of nightmares when I was young I learned to challenge and analyse them, using the symbols in the stories to help me, and now there is not much I am afraid of - and anything fearful that does crop up in my life, I have plenty of practice in knowing how to deal with.

I find the idea that children have to be convinced of the unreality of Hallowe'en, more scary than anything. It's about control through denial, and I'm not entirely convinced that fundamentalists deny other people's reality through fear. There is also an element of control. Does a fundamentalist group that (say) tries to subjugate women, actually fear them, or is it that they want to be in charge and control their lives? THEY then create the fear, in order to hold others in thrall.

If a fundamentalist or other group is trying to rigidly control something, in my view that very need for control has fear at its root. If (as in your example) they are trying to control women, deep down may it not be because they fear what women will do if they are not controlled? Because they don't understand, and therefore cannot rationalise, the power that women might possess over them? Desire for control may be the flower, but the seed is fear of either chaos, or of being controlled themselves.

This is an excellent thread I think it's more that the muggles are afraid of what they think we are. There is so much superstition about paganism and the occult that anything out of the ordinary gets the gasp of horrified shock from the muggles. I myself like to point out misconceptions but as with all fanatics not all people are willing to listen and some even are less willing to attempt to understand. I would and do feel it is crucial that the public view of paganism is addressed but it's how to do it, after all we have the 'wonderful' red dressing-gowned one who's raising the profile of witchcraft how are we to compete with the media tarts who are outlandishly pagans in the press since it's always the loony who gets the best coverage when it comes to 'cults'.

Going back to JKRowlings words, we need to feel fear as children just sometimes, like within adult life we end up being hurt or falling before we learn the lesson. Like today within schools, this utterly stupid mentality of there not being any 'losers' everyone is a winner. Hell coming last every single bloody time in games didn't do me any harm, I tried my best, I suceeded top of the class in other subjects, to understand that in life there are some areas that you just can't win in is truthful and honest. Therefore to face dementors is something that can only strenghten you, to face your biggest fears is to be able to face them and cope with them, deal with them, learn from it and move on. The one thing I like about the Harry Potter books is that Harry is often afraid and out of his depth but he will do what is right. To (mis!)quote Dumbledore in film 4, You must do what you think is right or you must do what is easy.

Life choices are ours, we chose to become Pagan, therefore we should also take responsibilty for explaining what Paganism and witchcraft really is to those who don't know or understand, and in order to do this all Llewellyn books should be burnt since they're more misleading than the bible bashers

I have always thought that the discrimination and bad mouthing of pagans has to do with the Christian philosophy. We are often described as devil worshipers, because it's the anthithisis of a 'good' Christian. Many churchs ban the use of fortune tellers, practicing of witchcraft, magic etc and the Catholic church certainly does not like the practice of Yoga. Probably because all of it has to do with differing thoughts or difference of opinion. Also, beliving in hell and the devil is suppose to lead us into living a good life for the promise of a good afterlife???? And being able to blame bad acts on some evil entity.

I like J.K. Rowling rationale, it also speaks to personal reponsibilty and something that can be learned in childhood. Anybody who grew up with the Mother Goose rhythms knows this as well. Jack and the Beanstalk. Accept the consequences or do what you can to get out of it on your own. The old woman in the shoe about poverity (and child abuse ) and sometimes one doesn't get to live happily ever after.

I agree that much of any fear comes from either ignorance or misinformation.

However another factor could also be uncertainty. If for example you believe that your monotheist God is all powerful and that your belief in him offers you protection, why are you scared of someone wearing a pentacle?

I also agree with JKR there. If you look back you will see that fear has always been a useful in the development of good well balanced people; After all without the dark what is there to show the light?

Kev

Fears and stories are useful things.

It is part of human nature to enjoy being afraid, in a controlled manner, from time to time.
For example, in research about the users of roller coasters, the ones who showed the biggest fear factor on the ride were usualy the ones who went back to the q to go again the quickest!

Good stories can use that fear to both educate and entertain.
As JK says, it is better to first face fictional dementors, with the luxury of being able to close the book, than confront the bad things which will come into our lives totaly unprepared.

Where it all starts to go wrong is when fear is used by the powerful to control the powerless.
Dictators can not accept a challenge to their point of view. Only by being the single infalible source of absolute truth can they retain absolute power.
Big brother cannot, by definition, be wrong and must, if necessary, change reality to maintain his shield of infalibility.

Organised religion faces the same problem as big brother.
If it allows other perspectives or beliefs to exist in parallel with it, then how can it profess to be the only, whole truth?
And if it is not the whole truth, then which bits of it, if any, should be believed in it at all?

So, to prevent those other points of view becoming a threat make your 'flock' fear damnation by labling any alternate perspectives as heretical, blasphemous or demonicly inspired.

I think the difference is that we are not seen as sheep, whereas the Christian Church explicitly wants its believers to be sheep, and thus easily led and rounded up.

We're seen as goats!

I think that most of the prejudice comes from ignorance of what it is that we actually do (and a lot of people don't realise the incredibly wide variations in what we do). It's not as though the main religions are noted for promoting a tolerant approach to other beliefs!

I am sure we have all had the following conversation on Paganism with muggles

Muggle: "Oh you don't want to get mixed up with that."{Paganism}

Self: "Why not?."

Muggle: "Erm . . . because you don't. . . . "


Are they afeared of us? Not as individuals - but family member muggles are worried that we might do something or be different enough to make the neighbours think they too were a bit weird by association, and that would never do. "Respectability" as defined by corporate blandness means there is no script to deal with "difference" hence many people find security in never saying or doing anything that the mainstream wouldn't agree with. The soundtrack to their lives would be Easy Listening. They genuinely think Jane Austen actually wrote the scene of Mr. D'Arcy poncing about in a wet shirt in the ghastly 1995 BBC version of P&P.


Should we try and fill in the blanks about Paganism? It's a matter of personal choice. If people are genuinely willing to take on board new information, then yes, why not. However I have seen fixated people unleash a seemingly unending torrent of obsucure information on similar unfashionable subjects in response to a casual enquiry, completely oblivious to the questioner's eyes glazing over, pointed checking of wristwatches, "Goodness me, is that the time, etc?"

Perhaps we should have a competition to sum up Paganism in no more than three sentences!

I agee with Weatherwitch, a splendid thread. Fear is a very elemental issue in this. Pagans have thousands of years of clever and insidious propaganda to overcome before we'll be 'accepted' by the broader community of our neighbours.

I give you 'the white witch' as an example of this. I am uncomfortable with this description as I think it's a sop to people who don't know any better. I also think it's been necessary to preserve people's existences for many years. Are there 'black witches' too?

Is 'white magic' like the electricity used in hospitals to save lives but 'black magic' like the electricity used in prisons to kill people?

We have a long way to go in fighting this kind of accidental/deliberate misinterpretation of who we are and who we believe. We have literacy and communication and we are moving forward, but those with their hands on the levers are not as accepting. Fortunately, we do not rely on the priests for our view of the world any more.

Another, and I believe crucial, issue is that pagans are not for banging on doors to convert people to their beliefs. Even if you don't happen to believe in what, say, the Jehovah's Witnesses believe, many of us will be exposed to their beliefs in some, small way. Can we say that about paganism beyond the bounds of fiction like Harry Potter, Denis Wheatley (doh!) and the rest?

There's a lot of work to be done for those of us who'll reach out.

I am one of those (like many here) who does not accept the term white witch, it has been used by many however to attempt to explain to muggles that magic and witchcraft is ok and that they (the muggles) have nothing to fear from us. However, if this was a real term then I would be both a white & black witch, instead I am neither, I am a mix of both as are all the people I can think of. I will hex if the circumstances require it, I will also sending healing if the circumstances require it. Your example is excellent, electricity is all, kills or saves, so can we, but there is no difference in the title.

I am not white or black nor are they terms I recognise within my witchcraft, and yet I can understand why people call themselves that to muggles. But for them to do so is to belittle witchcraft and all they continue to do is to help the continuation of misunderstandings and misinformation. I do however get very puzzled when people calling themselves 'white witches' turn up on pagan boards, they don't realise what they are really saying about themselves nor what they are really saying to us, other witches or pagans

(hope this makes sense, i'm a bit brain fogged today! )

If I was to self proclaim as a witch I think I would be a " grey bra " witch

I think one of the best ways to counteract the perceptions of paganism/witchcraft is to just be yourselves, live your pagan lives in your normal manner and just arm yourselves with enough well researcehd information to counteract the utter bollocks some non pagan people come out with regarding paganism.

and how about for the utter bollocks some actual pagan people come out with regarding paganism?

Well,
It has been said that if you ask three Pagans for a definitive answer on anything then you'll get at least FOUR different replies.......

However, in defence of utter bollox,

one person's utter bollox may well be another's profound enlightenment

That said, we are such a varried comunity so long as we do not fall into the trap of generalisation, either for ourselves or others outside Paganism, we'll be fine.

When asked about anything, i can only answer for myself.

Utter bollox? Profound enlightenment?

Ghandi once observed that, 'even if you are a minority of one, the truth is still the truth.' It is our responsibility to seek out truth - even if it is uncomfortble for us as individuals.

Or to put it nother way we must learn to believe what we have reason to believe not what we want to believe, only then can we distinguish between bollox and enlightenment.

Steve.

I have been giving somethought to the 'muggles' and Steve's post has confirmed an idea that was forming.

The appeal of having a written, or even oral tradition which offers 'THE DEFINITIVE ANSWERS' is that it frees you from having your own opinion.

This is good if you are a muggle for several reasons.

1. Your opinion will not get laughed at in the pub (or wherever) by the other muggles.

2. You don't get stuck in that nasty moment of silence when another muggle asks your opinion.

3. you don't need to explain your opinion on any given subject , you can fall back on 'the book says so'

The reason muggles do not like people with different opinions is that when we give our opinion we have thought about it first, and can defend it. This leaves the muggle stuck with point 3, but if you repeat point 3 several times you look like an idiot......

Answer?

Make sure any non muggles get laughed at or driven away ( or tied to a tree and burnt if neccesary) before too many of them start asking you why.....

Problem......

A lot of muggles secretly want to be like us but are afraid of standing out from the herd.

Solution

Keep doing what we are doing. It took Ghandi a long time but in the end he WON!

Here here....

I've held off replying to this because I was a bit confused, and didn't want to respond with something cutting and horrible. I've decided instead to just say what's in my head (which can be a bad or good idea).

I dislike the idea that faith could put the fear in others. I know it does, some-times, and people are afraid of what they don't understand- but that applies to all faiths. I don't like the idea that those who choose a different faith than the 'regular' faiths of Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hiduism and so forth are somehow 'scary' or take delight in confusing and frightening others.

We are so many faiths, in this group. Do any of us aspire or delight in 'scaring' others? The term 'muggles' is brought forth by Rowling. Some would say she's a very bad writer. I would, actually. but the important point is that she writes 'fantasy'. I just don't see her terms being of any relevance to real faith or religion.

Again, I want to say that I'm not having a go at the original poster of this topic. I just felt I had to say my bit.

The term muggle I have found to have been adopted in several different online communities, on pagan boards they mean 'non magic folk' yet on other specialist boards the term is used to mean 'people who don't understand that specialised subject' ie,. aren't like them.

And err, actually I've had great fun over the years in delighting in scaring others it's what their ignornance is all about I'm afraid, some people are beyond help being so stuck in their ways or opinions

I think the truth will be what people make it, I will never accept the myth of people believing they are otherkin and thinking they really are half human half efl/fairy/housefly, and I intensely dislike that they call 'this' pagan. I don't find it to be the truth, and I'm fairly sure Ghandi would have sent them to the nearest shrink as well, especially when they insist that it's not a spiritual essence but a real life thing, ie, oh yeah, then why doesn't it show up on the DNA then hey?

Re otherkin and DNA, well of course it would not show up in tests.....'cos it's magical.

In the same way the flood of biblical reputation has problems.

like where
A: did all the water come from?
and
B: go away to?

These can be answered by a literal believer with "god just did it that way."

These problems of verification are not unique to otherkin and xtians.

ALL belief systems function purely on faith, and i defy anyone to provide me PROOF of anything related to the devine.

I find the proof for my beliefs in my own heart.

I will only outright challenge someone's expressed beliefs ( including whackier ones) when i feel that damage is being caused by those beliefs.

Are you then saying that the otherkin who claim to be part human, part dragon (and I mean they claim physical parentage not magical essense of) are not damaging paganism?

As for proof of the devine, I couldn't provide it since I don't adhere to or believe in a devine

Short question.....longish answer.

There are many threads, paths or whatever you choose to describe them as within the umbrella term of Paganism.

Off these various strands and ideas most embrace, and if fact utterly depend on, concepts and beliefs which are improbable, unprovable, defy conventional logic and have no validity within the realms of current scientific knowledge.

In fact, from a totally objective viewpoint, the entirity of majik and theology, could be, and in fact are, dismissed as primitive superstition, self delusion and fraud.

As a Pagan i have come to accept other Pagan's paths, whether they are unbelievable to me, as 'real', for them, just as i expect to have my beliefs accepted, without being ridiculed or dismissed.

Perhaps otherkin do not have a place inside Paganism, perhaps they cause damage because of their more lurid descriptions of themselves and can cause ridicule by association with us but who decides?

As a hypothetical, if a group of reconstructionists decided to revive animal or even human sacrifice, in the traditional Pagan manner of my Celtic ancestors, it would be totally Pagan, and totally destructive of us as a society....

That is the sort of damage i would decry.

I personally feel establishing a form of Apartheid of ideas, is not the way forward, and if otherkin first, then who next?.

But, back to the original thread.

Some people who claim to embrace Paganism are obviously doing it for effect.
They wish to rebel against the mainstream and perhaps inspire fear by being 'strange'.
As the more traditional threads of Paganism increasingly become part of 'the establishment' and gain social acceptability those sort of individuals will progress to more extreme forms of non-conformity, such as otherkind, satanism, chaos majic.
That's just life.

But that so far could be said to be exactly the same for the bible & it's 'miracles'



As a pagan I have come to not blindly accept other Pagan paths, and I certainly don't expect others to swallow my beliefs blindly without questioning and learning. To be pagan is not to be naively open minded but to use your brain, learn, seek knowledge and understand.



They have a place - inside a loony bin. Since Pagans suffer badly enough within the media in this country we really don't need outlandlish beliefs stated as absolute fact. They help no-one, pagan, christain or the mental health service alike.



The same problems that affected those societies affect us today. Today the sacrifice is different, the goal different, but people die for their beliefs and/or their goods then as they do now. Today the 'god' certain members of society kill for is 'nokia,' or 'nike' or 'ipod', servants of the god known as Greed

I no more recognise otherkin within Paganism as I do 'majic,' 'magick' or 'magik' there just isn't a place for them.