Hey. I'm new to this place so please don't batter me, but I want to gather opinion. Is there an existing thread about solitary Wicca?
I feel I am Wiccan and have been for many years but recently found some seriously angry Wiccans on an American forum (I didn't participate, it was WAY too angry for me) who were really having a go at someone for stating they were a solitary Wiccan who had not been initiated by someone who'd been initiated by someone who'd been initiated by someone etc etc all the way back to Gerald Gardner. They had dedicated themselves to the Goddess and God and felt that that and their intention were enough.
This was something I'd never even worried about (I am not formally initiated) and I always felt fine about describing myself as Wiccan. Now I'm nervous about saying that I am what I always thought I was in case someone gets all lairy about it.
If there's an ongoing thread please point me at it (I did look but maybe am blind), if not then has anyone else come up against this? XX

I reckon if you feel Wiccan then you are Wiccan. You keep doing whatever it is you're doing.

Those others you refer to seem to be putting the church before the faith. They're focusing on the dressing instead of the substance.

OK the nasty bit first:

Wicca was created in the mid 20th century and is a synthesis of various religious ideals and practices. It is a coven based religion with a requirement for initiation and for the coven members to work through a series of degrees. All Covens, and therefore all Wiccans, should be able to produce a verifiable lineage back to Gardner's original Coven.

These are the facts.

.
.
.

Except that over time disagreements arose and variations on Gardner's ideals and practices came to result in schisms and so various different traditions of Wicca arose. However each coven could still trace its lineage back to the point where it broke from the Gardnerians and thus back to the dawn of Wicca.

These are also the facts

.
.
.
But.....

Some Wiccans either chose not to honour the vows of secrecy at the heart of their traddition, or perhaps in some cases their coven did not hold with them and so no vows were ever sought. Whatever the cause some books were written claiming to expose the workings and rituals of Wicca, which in turn lead to a plethora of books on how to become a Wiccan. As a result of this, and particularly the number of books claiiming that self initiation was valid and that covens were not essential a great many solitary practitioners came into being. Note these are solitary practitioners and not hedgewitches - don't believe everything you read in the books.

Now these solitaries are not Wiccan as they are not coven based and have no lineage nor recognised initiation. This is what ires those Wiccans who were initiated into a lineaged coven and did not work to obtain the degrees and recognition of their peers.

They object to these 'pretenders' describing themselves as Wiccans in the same way that an Oscar winning Shakespearian actor would object to someone who once appeared in a crowd scene in EastEnders describing themselves as an actor. Basically they feel that they have not earnt the right to call themselves Wiccan. And to be honest in many ways this is true.

Nice bit coming up.

However, In my opinion if you follow the ideals and principles of Wicca with true dedication and seriousness and do not make claims to titles, lineage or history that are false then you have every right to expect to be able to call yourself a Wiccan. After all there are many 'recognised' traditions of Wicca out there and they all do things a little different, so why should you be excluded.

Remember the Wiccan rede - an it harm none do as you will. As long as you make not claims to degrees and lineage and respect those that do and also follow your faith with sincerity what harm are you doing. However can the same be said for those that do have the right to make these claims but then jump to the attack?

Now if you learn your Wicca from a book and claim to be a third degree high priest/ess in a tradition reaching back to the dawn of time. Well then you get what your deserve (and probably 3 times over )


Some other threads you might feel useful are: Wicca vs wicca , Wicca And Why I'm Not A Fan, Gerald Gardner did not know everything, Wicca, somethings been bugging me! and Wiccan Snobbery?


Kev

you see I wouldn't call you Wiccan.

but that doesn't mean I don't respect what you believe in and what you do, I just would't say Wicca is the right word for it.

you can definitely believe in the teachings and practices of Wicca without formal initiation, but I would hesitate to call it Wicca without that formal recognition.

there's nothing wrong with it for it not being Wicca though.

there's hundreds of paths out there. some people find a real sense of freedom when they realise that they don't have to pay lip service to any of them, and describe themselves as Pagan.

I know for a fact Wicca is not for me. too much dogma.

Have to say I agree with Galena and most of Cos's post.

On another forum, the consensus amongst the Wiccan (as in, initiated) was that there's only one way to become a solitary Wiccan:


Join a coven
Be initiated
Leave.

Like Galena said, my own view is that you follow a path based on Wiccan teachings, but without that formal initiation, you're not Wiccan.

Doesn't mean that what you're doing is wrong, or that there's anything wrong with the path you've undertaken, just that, strictly speaking, without that formal initiation, it's not Wicca.

Is my view.

*Removes mod hat, all personal opinions contained herein*

Your angry American friends have a point. No disrespect, but I do feel very strongly that you should not identify yourself as Wiccan. Wicca is an initiatory tradition and if you haven't been initiated and learnt the teachings that are passed down to you during the process, I don't believe that you can or should call yourself a Wiccan. The process is kept confidential for good reason; it's a way of identifying a level of committment to that particular path - not, I emphasise, to your gods or to paganism in general, just to that specific path. Also, unless you've been initiated you won't get all the information you need to carry on your studies and workings at that deeper level under the guidance of a High Priestess.

One of the things that differentiates Wicca from wider witchcraft is that it traces itself to the teachings and writings of Gardner. Now, it's debateable how much of Garder's work should be trusted or can be deemed to be accurate or reliable, and there are questions as to how much of a part the cult of personality has played in the development of Wicca. I personally don't have much time for Gardner, and if I chose the path of a witch rather than a Vodouisant, I wouldn't want to go down the Wiccan route. But still, to call yourself a Wiccan and not be able to trace your lineage back to Gardner or to have studied the Book of Shadows handed down from him is, to me, not practicing Wicca any more than someone who calls themself Catholic without having gone through the catechism process and all it involves is truly Catholic.

There are many types of paganism out there, and many ways to be a witch. Some paths place a high emphasis on initiation, some don't. I personally would call you a witch, not a Wiccan. But as Galena and Cosmic fool have outlined, there's nothing to stop you walking your path and continue to study what Wiccan teachings you have access to and applying them to your life.

Utterly agree with all the previous replies. Sorry Celticstar However don't let this put you off learning more, for if you don't ask or seek information then you can't learn, and that applies to all of us here whether 8 weeks or 18 years down our path

The problem is that there are way too many books out there that tell us that wicca *is* witchcraft and all witches are actually wiccans. Nope, wicca is basically a belief system religion for which a God and/or Goddess are required. Witchcraft does not require Gods, and most witches are not wiccans. In general the Americans rewrote the history of wicca, and actually I'm amazed that it was Americans who corrected you first about Wicca since they usually totally believe the re-written version. A general rule, if you want to read more about actual wicca or witchcraft then avoid books on the LLewellyn label, and remember that one book contains just one authors beliefs, a forum offers you literally loads

And I'll let you in on a secret, many of us here also started as out believing we were wiccan because of what the books incorrectly said too, along the path we found out different

I see it like this, there are Christians and christians - Wiccans and wiccans...you can say you follow the wiccan ways but not that you are Wiccan. I hope thats not totally confusing!

Personally I hate labels and being put into a nice neat compartment, Ive followed a long and winding path starting out with family traditions and teachings which go back for generations, then being a bit of a rebel veered off towards buddhism for a while and am still wandering, learning and probably incorporating bits and pieces along the way.

If you've just started out I would suggest you read a lot, even things that dont seem relevent, open your mind and dont be afraid to change your way if it seems appropriate. I wish you success in your travels.

Edited to add ....

I agree with weatherwitch about the American view of Wicca, they seem to have altered it drastically. I would also add that if you read something that says its the only way or you must is probably wrong!

Absolutely, I totally agree

Thanks all for fascinating (and not brutal!!) replies. Hmmm, loads to think about. I just never questioned what I was since I came to Wicca as a teen (long long time ago now...) with a good friend. We studied together, formed our own little group, just the two of us and learned and practised together. I really just wasn't aware at the time that you had to be initiated by Wiccans who could trace everything back to Gardner. Doh, I have just been going on my merry way missing a HUGE piece of information!
I always had reservations about some of Gardners ideas and teachings, though I did start out reading bits and pieces of his work for guidance, I just felt it was all a bit churchy. OK, silly thing to say maybe as it is a religion, but I disliked a lot of the rigidity.
The thing is I really do identify with the principles and nature based ideals of Wicca and also follow and praise the Goddess and God in various guises. Dilemma.
Now I'm thinking I should not describe myself as a Wiccan at all anymore. But, I do enjoy the teachings. Maybe I'm a witch then? Strange to have to rethink what and who I am at this stage, but it's all about learning and growing so maybe it's a good thing.
As to Llewellyn books, they are generally a bit pants I agree! I started off with some as a girlie explorer but left them behind a fair while ago. I think that's the way for lots of people who start on this road.
So, thanks again everyone, I'm off to reevaluate in a big way! XX

We've had a few threads on the principles of wicca too recently, you might find them interesting, (three fold law, harm none etc), pagans are as such nature based beliefs and/or magic. I am pagan, I have several Gods, I follow nature and her ways and use for them myself and others, I am a witch but not wiccan. I don't agree with the principles but apply my own morals to my life and any workings I do, but that's in another thread too

Remember also that wicca is not a recognised religion in the UK, (only in the US) however paganism is finally getting proper recognition as a belief system here anyway

And good luck, it is a never ending path of learning, one that can be very hard, but very rewarding, it can make you laugh and cry, but by heck, for me, it's been worth it

Just wanted to say, ta for the links to previous threads Cos (or is it Mr Fool?!), they were really good. Particularly liked the Wiccan Snobbery one, there are certainly a lot of intense feelings about the subject. I think I might just drop all titles for now, I guess I asked the question in the first place because I was questioning the whole situation myself, but maybe didn't realise it. So, the angry Americans have actually helped me, though I have to say don't cross them, they damn scary!! Kind of fundamentalist Wiccans, run away!
I suppose if people have followed some complex rules and doctrine and stuck to the letter of the law, studying under High Priestesses and High Priests etc for ages then I can see why upstarts like myself would pee them off. I think it made me question why I'd want to be labelled in such a strict way... What drew me in the first place was the freedom to worship as I felt fit. Ah, questions questions.
I'll worship and practise and do my own thing as I always have, just without the label. I've toyed with eclectic wiccan (all small letters!) label but why be tied down? I know what I know and I do what I do. That will do me for now.
I have utmost respect for those who do go through the whole coven and initiation thing, I just never thought of it as a requirement. So, onwards people, thanks for the insights XX

I hope you enjoy finding your way.

it's an ongoing process, and it never ends.

Thanks Celticstar for bring this up because i'm in the same situation as you. Until I joined this here web site I was totally at home calling myself a Wiccan. But after reading a lot of what people have to say I'm questioning it too - but you're so much braver than me and actually asked. I on the other hand am a coward and didn't!! However all this has given me a lot to think about now so thanks all. I just have to decide what on earth to call myself now... If i'm not a Wiccan... then that means I'm ... erm... confused!!

if anyone non-pagan asks me I simply say pagan or that I follow the 'old ways' - I dont like labels, never have done. To be honest apart from old family ways which form the basis of my beliefs Ive incorporated odds and ends from many other ways and so now Ive no idea how I would describe myself. Well, perhaps 'weird'?

Coz, Fool, Kev, Oy you I answer to most things

Glad you found the past threads of use. You are right in saying there is a lot of intense feeling, one reason why I don't identify as a Wiccan (big, small or upside down W) but instead I say I that my path is hung on the structure of Wicca but with added bits. Though to be honest my worldview diverted from Wicca some time ago.

Kev

er well for a start you are you as to your path you could always just say it is a wicca based path or just call yourself a Neo/pagan and only go further if asked.

Hmm this little poem of mine might help....

Lonely

I am not Wiccan, Druid, Hellenic or Norse,
I don't follow others I chart my own course.
I'm Pagan I say, when asked of my faith,
But that defines little, so seemingly safe,
Until when they question just where I belong,
My tune although similar is not the same song.
Should I kowtow to them and find a known path?
Why should my views cause them to laugh,
And scoff at my faith that has no tradition?
Do they feel that this is some kind of sedition?
To my beliefs I will keep a firm and tight hold,
Resisting all taunts and not pigeonholed.
But I know I can take it, my beliefs they are strong,
Though I still can't help wishing to feel I belong.
But if I convert to one historically 'real'
I betray myself, and my gods too, I feel.
So rather than join in, I'll stay solo with pride,
And walk my path gladly, my gods at my side

@Kev the Coz 2005



Kev

brilliant poem

That was brilliant Mr Fool (sorry, I like the A team overtones of Mr Fool), a really excellent 'sum it all up' poem. I might copy that in one of my thousand notebooks and read it when I'm feeling a bit GRRR with the definitions and imposed rigidity of life.
Actually, bit of an update, things are moving on apace at a rather alarming rate for me...

It's literally a couple of days since I came to terms with the fact that I'm not really a Wicca, and bizarrely the sense of freedom and joy has been overwhelming. Really strange I have to say, I thought at first 'oh dear, reevaluation, sheesh, it's been years since I've examined myself that closely, it'll be another 20 years before I know what I am!'. But, it just hasn't gone like that at all. Again, not decrying Wicca at all here, just a major personal revelation time.

I've had a real connection with a particular Goddess this evening, something which just hasn't happened before, which has blown me away and I think if I'd been clinging to my 'right' path it just wouldn't have happened at all. So, I'm finding old books which I forgot I owned (and never read!) this evening and so much stuff is making sense, it's just all happening in a bit of a rush so I'm a teensy bit overwhelmed to say the least.

As to my new and also cofused friend, I'd say open yourself to possibilty and you never know what will happen, who you'll connect with and where it will take you. And I think I need a lie down now! And a large glass of red. XX

Cos you are a star! You don't know how much that poem and bit of advice seems to have helped Celticstar and it has also helped me too. I feel so much easier about the whole thing than I did in my previous "bit" (not sure what the correct term for these are). Thankyou.

Great poem Coz

Fabulous poem, Cos.

This thread has shaken the cob webs from my mind. It was many years ago when I tried to get into Wicca. I had figured out I was a pagan and should therefore do something about it. Starting with Wicca seemed obvious only I couldn't get on with it at all. Trading one set of dogma for another wasn't for me.

Perhaps a solitary wiccan could call themselves an unorthodox wiccan? Yeah, I know, for some (like, Wiccans) that means they simply aren't! Labels labels everywhere. I am what I am (no matter how out of tune).

Merry Meet Celticstar,

After a recent bout of crystal healing I have taken to calling myself and others like me either Lightworkers or Pathfinders and before anyone gets upset both descriptions have multiple uses within the 'pagan' society.

You enjoy your chosen path and dont let anyone tell you who or what you are, your you and your special as are we all


Blessed Be


Moonwolf

Very wise words moonwolf

Kev

Ah, all so lovely! And yes, very wise words indeed. Has anyone ever noticed that certain factions (wrong word? groups/movements/miserable sods??) seem to take stuff soooo very seriously that it feels like they're attacking you for using the wrong label/word/term etc? Occasionally it's so tempting to say , Oh, does it matter what I call myself really, get a life and let me enjoy mine. Oh dear, too much mulled wine has made me vitriolic and slightly mad!! XX

sounds rather sane to me

Well...to some extent it does matter what you call yourself - as has already been said on this thread, you can't adopt a label belonging to an established tradition unless you are part of that tradition - or you are misleading others, misrepresenting that tradition , and inviting those within that tradition to take pot-shots at you.

Other than that - yep, call yourself what you like. "Pagan" is a pretty effective label. If you need one at all.

Yes. I agree with Woodsong, surely its simple respect for the various paths? For me to call myself a druid would be utterly wrong as I've no idea what the path entails.

I am a witch, although, perhaps its more accurate to say I'm in a Witch in training. I am studying the path, learning new skills, I am at the stage where I feel I have a good understanding of what my path means and good grasp of the basics. However, there are still much to learn and I feel regardless of any path we are always learning. I tend to use the label particularly amongst the Pagan community so other pagans know what I am learning and following. It is useful in meeting other witches, they might not have quite the same beliefs as me and their take on magic might be slightly different, or their practise of it, however, its good to meet others that are following a similar path and to learn from them. In many ways I thnk that's probably the only reason to label myself a witch because to me, I am simply who I am and the witchcraft a part of my life which indistinguishable from the rest.

I certainly wouldn't dream of calling myself Wiccan, despite having read extensively on the subject, simply because I don't practise the religion, nor have I been initiated into Wicca. I suppose I could say solitary wicca, but again I don't follow the rede and so forth, so its is misrepresenting myself. And yeah as Woodsong says, for me to represent myself would be disrespectful to that path and the people who do seriously study and believe it.

But then, surely just about everything in life comes down to respect?

with the proviso as others have said, that no unfounded claims are being made.

Note must pass this on to KFC at some point.


Kev

I did say earlier in the thread in a more rational moment that I don't call myself Wiccan anymore, since I'm not initiated formally into that tradition. Sometimes I just get a wee bit lairy after a glass or two of spiced wine and have a teensy rant. I don't really call myself anything specific at this point in time, other than Witch and that will do me for now. Tonight I am on the mineral water, I will behave and promise not to rant. Well, maybe a little bit... XX

I have to say, this thread and many others on this forum are incredibly enlightening. I thank you all for being so considerate to each other when replying with your opinions and knowledge. So often, threads where strong feelings are expressed on other forums (regardless of the subject matter) turn into heated debates. Here, it seems, thoughts, experiences and knowledge are passed across in a much more "intelligent" way leading to a much more enlightened individual who gets to read it.

I obviously cannot add any of my own thoughts as I know not nearly enough to have formed any valid opinions as yet but, reading yours, most certainly helps those, such as myself, who are at the very beginning of finding out the path they might want to follow in future. Thank you all.

How strange! lol, I'm american, been on a lot of various pagan boards.. and the ones, in the US, I found people didn't seem to care much, if you called yourself wiccan or not..

but over in the Uk.. ack..!!!! watch out, if you hadn't been IN a coven and intiated.. then you certainly were not a wiccan, to their way of thinking...

I really don't care... lol If you think you're wiccan, follow their rules.. then I see no problem with it... calling yourself wiccan. thats just me...

Kinda like I don't think xians have to go to church on sunday, to be xian!

I feel for myself, that i've always been a witch and just didn't know it!
Been on the path 5-6 yrs now.... much to learn and I love it!!

I think you'll know and it sounds like you're doing great, studying, meditating and connecting with a Goddess, all our great things and a way, I think, of the Divine, (to simplify) lol, to let u know you're on your own right path.

and yes, the Uk is a cool board

Blessings
Whisperedwind~

Hi Whispered Wind, hope I didn't offend you with the American thang, maybe it was just a very angry forum I found! But, regardless of the attitudes expressed (or more the manner of expressing them), they did make me question my 'labelling' system and I'm really grateful because it's opened up a lot of stuff for me. I love this site, it's really open and informative and noone is afraid to say what they think, but so far noone has been ruuuude, which is refreshing.

I think Cornfan said it well, that opinions are expressed without too much heat, by and large. Of course, a bit of heat is a good thing or we'd all shrivel up and die of boredom eh!

Actually, thinking about it, wasn't there a great thread a while back on labels, and what we call ourselves, and indeed why we feel the need to call ourselves anything????

I have no idea how to go about finding it tho...... **smiles sweetly at Coz**

Use our wonderful site search function

Link at the top of every page on the site.

Leof all,
Its an interesting thread. Is the Gardnerian word Wiccan a descendant of the Old English word wicce pronounced Witche the male equivalent being wicca pronounced Witcha ? The same development happened to words like Old English sticce - stitch and bicce- bitch.
If so all Witches are using the same word but the Gardnerians are using the ancient spelling..or did he /they not understand the development of the word wicca and mispronounce or recreate it as something else ie Wikka? If so they have created their own word and rites associated with it and theres nothing wrong with that.
To a lot of folk labels are important as it defines who and what they are and what they stand for. So Celticstar you can proudly call yourself Wicce and hopefully pronounce it Witche.
Beoð Gesunde,
Ordric.

I don't think anyone knows for sure where Gardner sourced the word, thoug he did apparently use an alternate spelling at one time - may have been Wicce or Wice, can't remember.

Though this may have been in his fictional work 'High Magic's Aid' rather than as a definite part of his 'new' religion.

Do we have any Wiccan historians in da Valley?

Hi Cosmic,
With Gardner using the Male /female variants of wicca/wicce
He may well of known all about the origin and pronounciation of the words.
Do modern Gardnerians call themselves Witcha/Witche?
Perhaps the unintiated mistakenly call themselves Wikkans as thats how the word in modern times "looks" how it should be spoken..
Just a bit of food for thought but however you say it.. enjoy your wiccecræft
Welga!
Ordric.

well if Wiccans call themselves Witchans then I don't see any reason for them to get upset by booklearn Wiccans calling themselves Wikkans.

Though I have yet to see a Wicca book say that it is pronounced other than it is spelt.

Kev

Hi Cosmic,
Just found this browsing the net, think the site is Geraldgardner.com.

Gardner would go
on to lay claim to the word “Wica” using a slightly altered version of the Anglo-Saxon
word for "witch" that was later emended to its correct form of “Wicca.”

So it seems originally he called his Religon (or the Religon passed to him) Wica
which could be pronounced Wika then with later research corrected it to Wicca ..I wonder if the mistake persisted due to people reading his works and thinking wicca was wikka rather than hearing the man himself say Witcha
Interesting thread...How do Modern Witches/Wiccans pronounce it.
Are there any recordings of Gardner himself and how he pronounced it?
In Frith,
Ordric.

Bit more browsing of Wiccan websites..this one is..http://www.wicca.com/celtic/wicca/terms.htm

Wicca:
A modern Pagan religion with spiritual roots in the earliest expressions of reverence for nature. Some major identifying motifs are: reverence for both the Goddess and God; acceptance of reincarnation and magick; ritual observance of astronomical and agricultural phenomena; and the use of magickal circles for ritual purposes.

Wicce:
Synonymous with Wicca. In some circles, Wicce is used for women and Wicca is used for men.

Now I'm getting somewhere...
Ordric.

Well considering he is working from the other side of the pond the author of geraldgardner.com has done quite a good job. Though he does admit to having to juggle conflicting information at times which is probably only to be expected after this time.

I wonder if he saw the same pattern that I did. Namley that Gardner failed to attain the position of head of the OTO in Europe and then resurfaced as the 'father' of Wicca.

hmmm the suspicious amongst us may wonder at that.

Still as I have said before if a religion works don't knock it.

It does seem odd however that it started out as Wica before becoming Wicca.

Re the second site - boy did you do some digging (or may be google struck lucky) so much of that site is devoted to their products I almost gave up and come back for the full URL

Not wishing to dis that site in particular, but any site that gives suggested reading lists for Wicca but does not include Gardner, Valiente or Hutton but does include Silver Ravenwolf is a bit suspect in my eyes.

Still it just goes to show that not everything on the web is true and certain.

You know I must finish reading The Triumph of the Moon and then may be dig out Witchraft Today

Kev

I found Triumph of the Moon to be incredibly enlightening when it came to old GG - as I've said before, I won't knock the man, anyone who can start up a religion that's grown so much in popularity and adherance in 60 years has to have been doing something right, but Ron Hutton really does an astonishing amount of research which seems to have been generally accepted as being absolutely spot on about the real origins of Wicca/Wicce/Wica or however you choose to spell it.

Pah, you had to mention it didn't you WS I was being lazy.. sigh.. caught out again.

Very, I'm sorry, but as a fellow manipulator of the male gender did you honestly think you were gonna get away with that one ?

AAARRG! Wicca, wicce, wikka, witche, witcha, wotcha? I am sooo confused now. So, from this day hence I shall be known as a Whatsit, not to be confused with a Wotsit (cheese flavoured starchy snack based snack food), a Whatnot or a Thingumy, 2 paths that I am diametrically opposed to. There, that's that cleared up then.

or how about Pagan.

most people find it sufficient

Absolutely! There are so many differing terms and opinions, though I am fond of Whatsit. I think Pagan or Witch is easiest, it's what I am and no amount of names are going to ever really express what I am or what I feel. It's been fascinating seeing how many variations there are on the word Wicca though, joking aside, there's such a tangled history of spellings and interpretations. I was particualrly interested in the different spellings used by Gardner himself, ie the changes he made over time. Language is so fluid, it's virtually impossible to pin it down.

Cheesy or BBQ Beef?

Cheesy. Always, no question.