I have a very large concern about the future of Paganism and would be interested in hearing your opinions………………..

Paganism is diverse, and seems to become more so by the day, and modern Pagans range from quiet introspective thinkers, through all shades of personality and ability; who follow and borrow from diverse paths and sources as suits their own spiritual paths. We are in short a varied coalition and there is of course a small ‘lunatic fringe,’ be they charismatic would be leaders or troubled fantasists.

We live in a land where the dominant religion is Xtianity, it is 2000 years old, treasures orthodoxy, believes itself to be the only ‘truth’ and is in short a part of the establishment, and in many quarters is openly hostile to our beliefs. The population is institutionally brainwashed from birth (which of us was not co-opted into the school nativity play?) to believe that Xtians are fundamentally good people, and the Church has the PR apparatus and influence to limit any damage done by hypocritical/exploitative/perverted/thieving/lying members of the priesthood or congregation.

On the other hand Paganism has no strong public image, be that positive or negative, and certainly has no effective PR apparatus.

Now here is my concern; suppose a charismatic member of our ‘lunatic fringe’ was to gain influence over a group of impressionable fantasists and persuade them to commit some outrage (use your imaginations here; burning the Arch Bishop of Canterbury in a wicker man, human sacrifice, or ‘fertility rites’ with underage teen witches – the more lurid your imagination the better). This is then picked up upon by the tabloids…….

….Now imagine the headlines, baptist ministers screaming about devil worship, condemnation of all Pagans from self seeking polititians and the self righteous press etc etc. and then the government passing a sort of ‘Dangerous dogs act’ against Pagans, to curry public favour. Scary!

How can this scenario be prevented? Is it time that Paganism gave itself a positive public face, and if so what should it be? Is the term Paganism too broad, and should we try to use words like Druid and Wiccan in preference? And would it really matter if something like I have just detailed did come to pass?

Or do you think there is a greater threat?

I look forward to hearing your views, Steve.

Call me blinkered but I don't think this is likely, Steve. Christianity is declining in power all the time. There is a mood of tolerance and a welcoming of diversity in the English speaking world. I would worry more about bird flu.

i can see from your point of view but saying that i think our country is more open minded to a degree now and we are all mostly aware of not listening or believing everything we read in the tabloids. There is a new movement in spirtuality and more relgions are excepting of others so i am lead to believe in today's society !

Personally for me i dont make a big issue of my spirtual path just in case of others reactions but with a young family i would feel like this reagrds of which path i choose !

The world is a much smaller place with the use of the internet and other technology
and people are learning new ways perhaps from other cultures which we didn't have the chance maybe a few years ago! this in turns opens peoples minds to new views and ways of life including religion.

I think we do not need a representative for pagans or one voice for the public to hear as for me the reason i am pagan is the freedom which i have been given to be who i am and live and let live no other pagan could speak for me or give my views for me. i myself am still learning about my path and would be mortified if their was a spokes person as i would feel the need to adhere to their ways or not be a true pagan and for me thats the whole point of this path !

Hope that makes a bit of sense or maybe i am just rambling

BB Sarah

IMO, paganism itself is so fluid that the actions of one nutter could not do much to affect the lives of members of specific pagan belief systems; there are already plenty of people out there who believe that pagans are baby-sacrificing evil-doers as it is, but they are balanced by plenty of people who realise that anyone talking about human sacrifice and underage sex as expressions of belief is a very sick person and should be supervised from the point of view of their being a threat to their community rather than as a religious leader representing pagans in the wider community.

To be honest, I believe the largest 'threat' to paganism in terms of public image and presenting a good face from the point of view of PR, is pagans themselves. Because Pagan is an umbrella term encompassing beliefs far more disparate than those under the banner of, for instance, Christianity, it is virtually impossible to identify a single set of values, beliefs or ethics that can be used to provide a PR-friendly simple depiction of 'pagan'.

What she said in the last paragraph (shakes fist in comedic manner at Blackie Fen for beating her to the point). There will always be someone who wants something that is slightly against the grain of mainstream paganism, and unfortunately people nearby will get sucked into their jetstream as they get wound up about perceived insults. It spirals out of control, communities get ripped apart and have to put themselves to gether again, character assassination is rife...

Sorry, pet bug bear of mine...

El, in search of some dried frog pills.

Read "Omega" by Stewart Farrar! It's a very scary novel, but I think any intelligent person knows how easy "the people" are manipulated. As Agent K said "a person is intelligent, people are stupid".

If the powers that be did decide they needed a scapegoat, then yes, there is every chance that pagans could get picked upon. However, there are lots of other easier scapegoats at the moment.

It does amaze me how despite the very real bad people within Christianity (think Waco or paedophile priests) it manages to escape with a very good public image, yet the very few bad people drawn to paganism make us all look bad.

bb
Rhiannon

Points to the ones in the tall pointed hats and the man in the orange dressing gown



Well its given that Christianity is the dominant religion, but it is only areligion and not the relgion. Despite its pole position (at the moment) there are other faith groups out there besides Neopaganism - Hinduism. Sikhism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Jainism, Bahá'í, Rastafari and this isn't even mentioning all the atheists and free thinkers. Add to that Judaism and need I mention Islam? So we have a mixed faith nation and while the church can put positive spin on its failings it is not necessarily going to be believed across the board.

Meanwhile, yes Paganism doesn't have a strong public image but there are organisations like the Pagan Federation, Pebble and the Association of Polytheist Traditions who are working to improve this.



So this is forgetting about acts of law passed to guarantee freedom of religion and belief in this country and the international bill of human rights? Yes I can see how the press would jump on such things but that is when the above named organisations can get a chance to prove their worth.

Mind you I can picture crowds of teen-Wicca wannabes decending on No 10, shrieking about witchhunts and the 'burning times' - I don't know what is worse



Yes I think it would be nice for Paganism to be wider known and better understood. In fact I think that it already is much better known than it was 10 years ago and can see this improving as time goes on.

As an example, Christmas morning I was listening to Radio 4 and heard a nice show talking about current events: It had a panel consisting of a Christian, a Jew and a Pagan.


Bush, Blair, Bird Flu (and that is not likely this year), plastic financing....

Kev

Your concerns are shared by many, and many have been working to actively present a positive, and truthful public face for a while now. It is the upfront, honest and open face that is necessary. As you point out, there are some 'lunatic fringe' folks who adopt the Pagan 'label'. Some of them are harmless and I think it is a mark of Pagans ability to be accepting of others that we can acomodate some of the more....eccentric people who self identify. There are a few who are not so harmless though, and you will see public statements by various organised faces of Paganism, respectable and respected members of society, that distance Paganism from the actions of these people. These same 'organised' faces are also working to provide a platform for educating people about Pagan paths and Pagans as people.

There will always be tabloids wanting to leap on the merest sniff of scandal. It happens to members of the Church as well. I'm aware of a few relatively recent cases that have been presented in a way that would, in theory, discredit many Christian chrches that are simply not what has been presented. Such is the nature of the free press.

It never hurts to have more people to join the ranks of those prepred to work at this in a sensitive and considered way though. How about joining the ranks?

BB

Mike

I honestly don't know that people in this country care enough about anything to be that wound up by fundamentalists. As far as most people are concerned a nutter is a nutter whatever religion he's wearing and screams of Satanist just result in a rolling of the eyes

I don't therefore think that it's a great threat and since when did the Government listen to what the people thought

Julia

I agree, no one really cares anymore.

I also agree with Blackie fen and El when they say that the biggest threat to Pagans is Pagans.

I must disagree. Xtianity has more power and influence than just about any other organisation in the UK. By that I do not mean a meglamaniac Archbishop of Canterbury is busy sticking pins in a campaign map at Lambeth Palace. Grass roots Xtian power has long been and remains a vehicle for the mediocre to gain small but significant amounts of power - put enough hours in - be it as an Xtian school governor, local councillor, lay ofsted inspector, police authority member, ditto health authority, and you get the picture - there's a lot you can have your say on - and more importantly, be listened to. Yes, ordinary civvies can go on these committees - but Churches make a point of encouraging their memebers to represent them - so quite often there is a scramble for places. Thus we have lots of petty little empires who give the nod to the authority of the Church, as in Church and State.

The reason if I find the above kind of Xtian activist dangerous is because of the deceptiveness of their being ordinary moderates - In some ways I don't mind the blatantly red-necked fundamentalists - they are readily identifable as way out extremists and can be challenged as such. But when do you hear of the moderate faction of Xtianity criticise their fundamentalist breatheren - very rarely indeed. Most are like the moderate Headteacher interviewed by Richard Dawkins on his TV programme a couple of weeks ago - when challenged in about creationism he responded with that typical smug evaisive laugh and did his best to squirm out of publicly nailing his colours to the mast, even though the school was actually promoting creationism. Conversely they can find their voices readily enough when it comes to challenging unpopular religions like ours.



On another point : I sometimes think that Paganism wouldn't be as much fun without it's detractors. It's a bit like hearing that record you bought as a teenager, being played on Radio 2 - somehow it's not quite the same.

I was surprised to hear Ugly Kid Joe's Everything About You on radio 2 the other day - you're right, it's not the same is it.

Sorry, slight hijacking of topic there.

If you don't have detractors, you don't have anything to fight against or anyone to prove yourself to, and that way lies stagnation. Struggle in this sense is a good thing, it's a catalyst for change.

Hi Steve

The upward path of Paganism, has broken the surface and will rise
(if I + All Pagans have NE thing to do with it) and become Once more the faith of all humanity.

As you say the non-secular nature of the UK gov, is a worry, and the 'silence' from the 'church' over matters concerning 'witchcraft' in the newer african churches, smacks of hypocrisy
( THEY AS CHURCH PEOPLE KNOW FULL WELL WHATS GOING ON AND THEY STILL LET CHILDREN SUFFER, THEY HAVE THE POWER TO INSTRUCT THESE NEWER CHURCHES, BUT CHOOSE NOT TO)

Also there is a growing number of Metal bands who've adopted the upside down Pentagram, (can they really not know what they are invoking??)

I believe they go for it because the churches hate it, although it is not mentioned in the bible. But it has been portrayed by various film companies (Hammer..)

The Masons also use the upside down Pentagram. ( they have members in the highest jobs in the land, ( judges, High ranking police officers and church leaders, military, Govt officials, Schools.... 330,000 in uk alone), as far as I can tell, they don't identify with Paganism, but lean more towards a single god/Angel 'nimrod' or M'ch'zldk. They love their pillars.

I personally try to right the wonky image of Paganism, that we've been brainwashed to believe.

These facts are there for all of us to see! And every year we see more, in this age of aquarius more will be revealed.

I wear a witch badge, and openly display my star, Its in my interest to bring Paganism (got to get a better name)) into the light.

Though fraid capitalism will have to go, or at least be radically changed.

So I say ' if we don't do some radical PR work for ourselves' Paganism will be eroded and We may have to go underground agaiiin.

You're so right. The upside down pentagram known within Wicca as the symbol of a Second Degree coven trained witch How scary is that?

Or do you mean Satanism? Which from you seem to mean appears to be the bible christainised version and not the real one?

And besides who really cares? The bands are simply cashing in on Hollywoods idea of Paganism and Satanism, which as we all know is a total load of bollox in comparision to the real thing. But Paganism and Satanism as they really are don't sell movies, and regardless of how much we educate them all, the world will go on believing what it wants to because that is the way of life. And anyway when those bands get the past of the combined member age of 30 between all five of them then they'll grow up



Goodness me, all by yourself? You are brave



I fear for the image of Paganism now, I really do And you want to rename paganism? Oh come on



Radical PR for Paganism There are many already who work to raise awareness of Paganism within society, some of them are members of here. But of course there is so much more to Paganism than a Pentagram which of course as you should know is not a symbol recognised or utlised by all Pagans since our paths are so varied that it simply isn't relevant.

Nor will we ever have to go "underground" again because we never had to in the first place.

I have no time for activists who don't even know the the right facts. I do however have plenty of time for activists who seek out the truth via real research

The biggest threat to paganism is pagans, and the best example of that is above


(And for those who think that's too much then use the REPORT key - thank you )

You know, I have to agree with WW. The biggest threat to paganism are those who say that they want to "return the people to "the Old Ways"" and have absolutely no interest in finding out that the "Old Ways" they seem so desperate to resurrect - never existed.

The word "Paganism" comes from the Latin "country dweller". I like that name and description, but I do know there are people I would call pagans who do not use the term and prefer things like "pantheist", "polytheist", etc. Short answer is, like it or not, such a diverse collection of beliefs as ours has to have a "catch-all" label and paganism is the one that fits the bill. You don't like it? Fine, let's hear your alternative.

If you want to educate people about paganism, then fine, but please, do the rest of us a favour and get your facts right first.

And you can prove that it was the faith of all humanity to begin with, can you?



And what would you have them do? Either the government remains secular and thus proof of criminal activity must be given before action can be taken (and action has been taken where proof has been offered), or the Church becomes the dominant power and takes over judicial responsibility. Do you want this country to become pagan, or do you want to give more power to the Christian church? You can't try to take power away from the Church with one hand and expect to order them to exercise power with the other. If you're that worried about abuses within African-origin Churches, get off your computer chair and investigate. Go into the community and ask questions - see if you can find the evidence you need. Above all, take responsibility for putting into action that which you want to see happen and stop waiting for other people to do everything for you.



What exactly do you think they're invoking then? Apart from the rage and shock of a few particularly ignorant bumpkins... The inverted pentagram signifies 2nd degree initiation into Wicca, and also the descent of power into Man rather than Man surrendering power to the Gods. Yes, Baphomet is associated with the inverted pentagram and has been associated with Satan, but this association rose out of the persecution of the Knights Templar by Papal inquisitions. If you're going to believe that you might as well say that Jews are all baby-eating well-poisoners. Oh, and that witches are evil devil worshippers...



The freemason's use of the pentagram stems from the pentagram's place as the foremost Pythagorean symbol (five being the number of man - fivefold division of the body, fivefold ancient Greek division of the soul.) It can be, as earlier stated, a symbol of the divinity of Christ descending into the soul of Man (medieval Christian Kabbalah - hence the 'pillar' association), but is more normally referred to as The Blazing Star and in this relates to the Star of Bethlehem.

As for the God of the freemasons, freemasonry is neither a religion, nor is it a replacement for any religion. There is a mutual respect among freemasons for the supreme beings that each member professes belief in. This is why the names used for God are different - in order to allow each member to join in prayer whilst remaining faithful to their God.

Very respectful of each other's beliefs, freemasons. A lesson to be learned there methinks...



Trying to impose your image of paganism on others is not necessarily the same as trying to right a wonky image imposed by others.



You contact any PR agency IN THE WORLD and tell them that the best way to create a positive image of a belief system is by publically denouncing all other belief systems, and their laughter will ring in your ears for years to come.

I reiterate what I said earlier - the biggest threat to pagans, is 'Pagans'.

I propose that there is no such thing as paganism and therefore nothing can threaten it. It is no more than a label.

Greeting arcangel,

Keep 'em coming, your evangelistic views make for interesting reading and opportunity for others to engage in critical dissection of your arguements.

Why fear about the future of Paganism? If you push hard, you'll find resistance and your path will go astray. Just be yourself. And do some research on the basics mate (the inverted Pentagram point).

I asked you in a post on a different topic, why exactly do you want to convert the world?

Looking forward to your reply,

Scyld.

With the utmost apologies to Blackie Fen especially since her reply was so fabulous but I read

as PayPay inquistions which left me rather puzzled for a few seconds



It is evangelistic, very peculiar especially when so poorly researched There is no need to fear for the future of Paganism, we have come a long way these last few years we all know that. For me the most important thing is getting the truth and facts about Paganism told, and yet it's quite often Pagans themselves who get the facts wrong (and should know better) yet then they complain about other religions misunderstanding paganism when it's often our fellow pagans who screw up with the information and facts misleading other pagans and non-pagans about us. This doens't help in the slightest. I wouldn't say that pushing hard causes resistance, it's pushing hard but being ignornant about the truth that gets you ignored and laughed at. Respect is earned, not forced.


I would hazard a guess that it is to convert all pagans to his very own brand of paganism ignoring all the many paths within it, and the truth and to be the King of Pagans around the world. Except that the Red Dressing Gowned One is already fighting for that title, mind it makes for interesting viewing

Arcangel though I would really love to dissect your post and debate its finer points I seem to have been beaten to it already.

However it seems to me that you never really seem to answer people when they call you on what appears to be your attempts to proselytize your own views on paganisms.

If you wish to actually engage in meaningful debate, then the ball is well and truly in your court.

Kev

Paganism has always been under some kind of threat, and has been seen as a threat.

When it comes to matters of faith, I think an established religion is the greatest threat to my beliefs.

Religious and 'ethnic' ghettoes also make me nervous.

I wish I was as bolshie as some people here about the future. It's going to take a lot of work to undo centuries of propaganda.

Greetings Scyld
Greetings All

It is I.


You have all written some very interesting things, and begrudgingly I will go orf and check some facts, and then I'LL B Back.

Meanwhile : I will try to Answr a Quest Why do I want to convert all to Paganism.

Why change anything, ( or is it how?)

I want to change the world, My hopes of changing anything are high, I am a double sagittarius, Fire in my heart Fire in my brain, I must get out more often, B4 i go insane.

No seriously. I feel I am uncovering the truth, and I must tell the world!
I'm very happy that the True Xtians do really good work, and there are some in every faith. I've been a Pagan, Buddhist, Christian, Pagan. full circle.


According to Concise Oxford Dict. Pagan means holding religious beliefs other than those of main world religions...

Pagan to me means, The Pagans should be the custodians of the earth.
Our ways are her ways,.

Until I return
BB

there's another group that say the same thing, and look at how that's worked out.

See, the main problem Arcangel, is that one man's truth, is another man's falsehood. Which has been the problem throughout history when each man attempts to "persuade" the other. And how far would you go to persuade people that YOU were the only one telling the truth? We've already established that every Pagan believes something different to the Pagan next to him/her. What makes YOUR paganism the only one?

Your wish to convert is arrogant in the extreme. It makes no allowances for each person finding what is true within their hearts in the way that YOU were allowed that luxury. How dare you decide what each person ought to feel, to think, to believe, to breathe?

"Say not that you have found the Truth. Say rather that you have found A truth" (Kahlil Gibran)

No person has the right to dictate what another should think or feel. Not even if they're Pagan.

Arcangel you've just written more soundbites you haven't really told us why you think people should be converted to paganism or dealt with issues this concept raises:

1. When you say convert to paganism - what exactly do you want to convert these people to?

2. How do you see this conversion happening - do you intend to force people to be pagans? Do you want to see other religions outlawed?

3. As paganism is an unbrella term for many many spiritual paths are you therefore proposing a new "religion" called Paganism which is based around your beliefs and your version of the Truth?


I'll leave it there as you have a tendency not to respond to post with many concerns in them....

[/quote]


Arcangel you've just written more soundbites you haven't really told us why you think people should be converted to paganism or dealt with issues this concept raises:

1. When you say convert to paganism - what exactly do you want to convert these people to?

2. How do you see this conversion happening - do you intend to force people to be pagans? Do you want to see other religions outlawed?

3. As paganism is an unbrella term for many many spiritual paths are you therefore proposing a new "religion" called Paganism which is based around your beliefs and your version of the Truth?


I'll leave it there as you have a tendency not to respond to post with many concerns in them....

[/quote]

1.
Verily I say to thee Thrice have I layed out checkable proof, for some of my beliefs.

The Existance of a Civilisation over a 100,000 yrs ago, successfully run by Women.
The wrongfull interpretation of the God, As being primarily Male, and the resulting warping of anything other than Christ.
The impending 2012 distaster/Rapture, that even bush has referred to on national tv!!

And as for Pagan Paths, Like you say there are so many...Gaia, Wiccan, Norse.....
I think my witchcraft and Goddess worshipping path is the right one, but many people will think differently. If their choice is not based on ignorance, that's fine, but I personally think people should not follow religions which say we are sinful, born of sin; and that various people are less/ bad/ because of their gender, sexuality, disability, etc.

I personally have problems with Wicca, (I'm not sure how much debate about this there has already been on this or other pagan sites), so would not want people to convert to this - but having these debates in the open is great. Most people need sprituality, faith, something to believe in, but many mainstream religions (and non mainstream) promote hierarchy and the abuse of power. Christianity is an empty box - you can sin all you want and if you ask for forgiveness it'll be alright. But there are still very good people who are Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc, so perhaps it is more about an individual's personal morality, and feelings of connection.


2.
How? By education, The Government are allowing the Creation story to be Taught as Fact, it seems.... but yet I don't want to see other religions outlawed. It should be peoples' choice - but peoples' educated, informed choice.

3.
No.

Ok, minor point, but important to me.. my name is Very not Verily. **shudders**

As for the civilisation run by women 100,000 years ago.. and stating it as absolute fact - I disagree. But that's neither here or there for now. Lets take your assumption, and I believe this to be your assumption from citing this particular theory, that you believe women running society would be much better?

As a woman, I feel almost compelled to say "Oh heck yeah!".. however, much as I appreciate the seeming mystical qualities women are apparently imbued with when it comes to leadership and the belief that women aren't corruptable by power.. well thank you for the vote of confidence, but its a little idealistic don't you think? Women can be just as powermad and hard nosed as any man, if not worst. I am not quite sure where this wonderfully utopic idea that women would make far better rulers than men has come from - yes its fun to joke about it.. but surely the best leadship would be a balanced and shared leadership? Women are just as corruptable as men I'm afraid, it does slightly pain me to admit this.. and it pains me to admit that women are indeed fallible.

The corruption of God into a male from female form. Yes I've read the theories on this too. Very interesting, rather compelling even, and probably a large dose of truth in there, but again this is neither here or there... what interests me is the implicit assumption that there's one God. I don't believe there is one God I believe there are many and I believe in Male Gods and Female Gods as do many Pagans, and even some who don't believe in Gods at all. Not 100% sure what you mean by Perhaps you would care to clarify that point for me.

As for this impending Rapture/Disaster in 2012... oh please! How many times has the end of the world being announced????? mmm.. if memory serves you got this from the the Fingerprints of the Gods or whatever that book is called. Yeah again very interesting book, damn good read.. but look a little bit more closely at the "facts" contained in the book and you'll find they have been very cleverly moulded to fit into his theory.. his books are essentially pretty well researched fiction - well in my opinion - I'll grant you that. I do believe Weatherwitch gave some good info on this within the other thread!

In terms of Wicca I suppose it really depends on which branch you're talking about. There's American Wicca, which has filtered over here to the UK and is mostly what will be found in bookshops and then there's British Wicca, which of course is the forefather of American Wicca. Then there's various evolutions Wicca from Gardner and Alexander days has taken. Wicca isn't for me, and certain variations irritate me highly - however, like with anything you can't just denounce a whole system because of an element that doesn't do it much credit! Look deeper!




Well, not quite, I agree that is the impression given, but everyone still has to face judgement (assuming you accept xtain idea of judegment) and the idea behind repentence is not to keep doing the same sin over, but to learn from your mistakes... now of course many don't actually quite understand this theory - and I'm talking in terms of my own experience of christain which was of the born again flavour, so perhaps not all branches of xtianity see repentence in the same light.. but I guess my point is, you're making a very blanket sterotypical statement.




Yes there are, and far more than you realise, I would actually submit that the majority of xtains are good people, similarly with the other faiths, its the fundamentalist few that give the rest a bad image! And yes I get as irritated as the next Pagan when the usual sterotypical garbage is trotted out by xtain grps about us but at the end of the day xtainity is diametrically opposed to ALL other faiths that is very implicit in the 10 commendments! In this ethos of tolerance, this has been toned down and as many people have said on this site there are good groups working to raise the profile of paganism and act as lobby groups to government. But that all aside, surely the problems, intolerances and discrimation all stem from wanting to convert people to what is considered the one true way!

And assuming you got your and paganism as a whole became very evangelical... do you really think it would do us good? I don't think so, we would have, I bet my life on it, radical groups just like every other faith, who commit atrocities because they believe its better than leaving the poor souls "unsaved". It is a very trecherous road to go down! History shows us this time and time again, when one group of people try to impose their philosophy on another atrocities happen!

Also you keep mentioning getting rid of capitalism - why exactly and what would you replace it with?

I do think, when people start believing the world needs to be fundamentally changed things get very dangerous, Lenin thought that in 1917 in Russia... and so Leninism rose from communism - which if you read the theory itself, is fabulous, but ultimatley unworkable, and because that was the case and Lenin essentially believe the proletariat needed a period of transition where he and his vangaard would rule.. horrendous attrocities were committed, a terrible era of paranoi arose, and culminated in Stalinism and the purges of the 1930's... conservative estiimates are 20 million people disappeared and were killed during the Stalin purges, some historians believe it may have been as many as 40 million.

A horrendous situation which lead to a very dangerous world, the USA felt threatened by communisim and this led to the arms race, to the wonderfully terrifying accronym of "MAD" mutually assured destruction. Now of course I'm given a very simplistic round up of a part of modern history.. but look when this was the 1930's! A mere 70 years or so ago, look at Hitler, the Hitler Youth, how close he came to success.. a mere 60 years ago!

There is nothing wrong of course with wanting to change the world, trying to make it a better view, idealistically, its wonderful, its heartwarming and many of the revolutions around the world have led to advances in civilisation.. and some haven't, and merely led to more misery. The problem arises, I believe, when someone thinks their view of the world is better than everyone elses and tries to oppose that view and philosophy on everyone. Unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately, the human race are made of up individuals, we are not homogenous in our philosphy of life/politics and religion - sure there are similarities.. but rather than trying to change people, to convert them, prehaps as history I believe, shows us its more of a time to celebrate those differences and to find a way to work together amicably - and maybe that's idealistic of me....

Is Creationism taught as fact in the UK? I didn't think it was, I believe its taught within RE but evolution is being taught through the science subjects. I know this isn't always the case in the US, and yeah ok, I do find that pretty appalling but again, people do have the choice of moving their children from schools that teach that. And while I'm not overly keen on the idea of kids being indoctrinated in such a way, one has to trust that the majority as they grow older will discover other theories on their own, will question what they are taught and so forth.. as fearful as doctrination is, time and time again people have rebelled against their doctrination and sought out knowledge. I often think its a part of the human pyche this thirst to know.

I would like to see kids taught about paganism as well in schools, as part of the religious education and I suspect in time this may well be the case as Paganism garners more and more acceptance and understanding.

I have no problem whatsoever with educating people.. my biggest problem with your vision Arcangel is I feel you're treading periliously close to becoming dictorial nor do I believe you have considered all ramifications and looked at all sides of the coins!

Really I must have missed some 'all revealing post' somewhere

I presume in that 'all revealing post' I mentioned above you actually posted your sources for this.

Other than Bush that is


Fine that's your opinion, but people who follow such paths are as much entitled to that right as you.
well perhaps you should try reading some of the other threads on this site, you might learn something useful


So how long were you a practising Christian then arcangel? I mean to levy such criticisms I would hope that you had first hand experience. Though its nice to know you don't feel all non-Pagans are bad people.

er...Arcangel in your profile you give a .co.uk as your hompage, I would therefore presume that you are indeed in the UK, so when did we start to teach the Creation as fact in this country?

sorry, but earlier you were advocating, quite strongly, the forced conversion of all others to 'your' paganism.

Just not Wiccan or any faith that you have might have issues with then? Even if people choose of their own educated free will to follow them

I think the Christianity versus Pagan thing is too limited for the 21st century. There is a threat to all freethinking, naturistic belief systems from the more dictitorial monotheistic amongst the human race, however, and that will go on. The only danger I see on the horizon for all non Abrahamic folk is if the Xians and Muslims become more chummy (not likely at present thank goodness). I can't see vicars strapping themselves with bombs just yet )

I have to say Arcangel, I had to clean up my monitor etc after reading your statement about this utopian ancient matrilinear society Wonderful stuff! All complete hokum of course - there is absolutely no proof whatsoever. There is conjecture, but that is all there is. There isn't a credible archaeologist, anthropologist, historian around who would be prepared to say that the society you've described actually existed in real life.

I've read your subsequent posts, and I'm even more convinced of what I said earlier - any attempt to convert someone else is a gross infringement (Spanish Inquisition not make you think twice about that idea?).

If you want to convert the world to your brand of Paganism, then go ahead and try.

But this particular Pagan will have no part of it.

[quote=weatherwitch,Feb 20 2006, 01:49 AM]
[quote=arcangel,Feb 20 2006, 12:41 AM]

---SNIPPED---

The biggest threat to paganism is pagans, and the best example of that is above


(And for those who think that's too much then use the REPORT key - thank you )

[/quote]


I have been holding off saying that myself and then I read back in the thread and see someone beat me to it

Hail to You Very

[/quote] Perhaps you would care to clarify that point for me.[/QUOTE]

I dont believe in a god, as such. For starters I believe, if there was a God, what right do we have to even try and guess what the deity may or may not like, let alone write a whole Book and then have no way other than point of death for non belief.
My God, has no face, except all the creatures on the Earth. And the way to please it, is very obvious to me.

Christianity got all its idea's from the Bible, which was translated by the Greeks, and then into Latin. History is checkable, when did the common person learn to read.
I know im off track but I have to come from this angle in order to get to the point across.

The fact that the Catholics were burning Wise Women in this country proves the warping of anything other than christ.






Some History is checkable, The Mayans counted in days, as with the Julian time system.



Some History is checkable.
Its used to be law in this country, that to determine whether some one was innocent or guilty, they would have to hold a white hot bar of metal and walk with it for a few yards, they would then be summoned back a week later and if their burn was healed they were innocent, This was Gods judgment, as invented/deciphered by the priests.






Fairtrade, all the land being equally divided including the oceans, waste, water, Social security; Not having to serve the shareholders interest over Humanities Needs, for starters.





CH4 Dispatches Monday 20:00
The New Fundamentalist. Its all about State schools teaching Creation stories as fact.

Would you say that they are like Stalinist's.




My own personal Goddess says I go on a lot, but i'm not a dictator.

To the best of my knowledge neither the Catholics nor the Protestants burned anyone for witchcraft in Britain. Witches in the UK were hanged, not burned.


Yes, it is. Something that's important to take note of when making historical statements...

(edited for typo)

[quote=Cosmic_Fool,Mar 4 2006, 07:12 PM]
[QUOTE]
er...Arcangel in your profile you give a .co.uk as your hompage, I would therefore presume that you are indeed in the UK, so when did we start to teach the Creation as fact in this country? [/QUOTE]

Ch4 Dispatches today at 8:00. Fundamentalist Christians teaching Creation story as fact,' Reg Vardy's Acadamies'

Aha you visitied the sight , What do you think of the Music??,.

Yes I live in the Uk, And i've been to bedford.

Well they were burned in Jersey so ner

wow arcangel, that was a really mature, considered and well informed post even by your magnificcent standards.

Sheesh.

Hang on, Arcangel, you said a couple of posts ago you don't believe in a God, as such.

And yet a couple of posts later you refer to "your Goddess".

Erm, aren't you contradicting yourself a bit there? And if you don't believe in a God, are you going to tell me that it's because you only believe in your Goddess? Or do you not believe in her either? Or is it only female deities you believe in because it fits with your skewed view of some utopian female society? Make your mind up!

You also said that if there was a god, what right do we have to guess what the deity may or may not like. And yet you, who are clearly NOT a god, nor can you seem very clear on whether or not you believe in one, see absolutely no irony in YOU deciding what is best for the world and all those on it. Gosh. By that reasoning we should all be worshipping YOU!! Because you know best! In fact, you know everything!! It's amazing!!!

You know, it's difficult for me to continue to attempt to discuss and debate rationally with you - I normally save that for people who do their homework and research properly - attempting to reason with someone who says "so ner" just makes me realise how futile adult discussion with you actually is. You're a fundie (I would like to say Pagan but honestly, I feel it's besmirching the term), erm... thingy. And that's just as bad as any fundy xtian.

I rather hope that was a typo and you meant to say "so near[by]"Doesn't look like it, though... as LCC and Pomona said, such a response is a long way from furthering your argument. What's the point in trying to hold serious discussions with someone who does the virtual equivalent of blowing a raspberry and sulking?

ACT YOUR AGE.

They aren't exactly 'state' schools, and the fact that such can happen shows what a stupid idea the 'academies' are.

I didn't actually see the show, but then neither had you at the time of your posts but it seems that while they are teaching Creationism they are still also teaching Evolution.

To the same extent I am presuming these are a single faith school and not likely to extend accross the multicultural mix of Britain.


Yes I visited the site, but didn't hear any music, if its on autoplay that could be coz I don't have it active on my browser. Too distracting.

My you actually answered one of my questions my life is complete

Kev

[quote=Pomona,Mar 7 2006, 09:08 AM]
[QUOTE]
And yet a couple of posts later you refer to "your Goddess".
[/QUOTE]

I was referring to my Good lady, with whom I have handfasted.

appologies for the ner,.

I am from a line of witches who were from Jersey, I also carry the female gene.

BB

Cheers Kev
Music not on auto play, websites a bit primitive,

All the Best
Arcangel

everyone has at least one X chromasome.

I'm afraid you really didn't get your point across Arcangel, I'm no clearer now than I was before.

As someone coming from an academic historical background I have to say I find your own warping and twisting of historical theory incredibly frustrating.

The only real history that is checkable, as you're so fond of saying, is modern history, and even then it has to continually evolve because new information is coming to light every year - history that is thousand of years old is pure theory... best guess based on the minute amount of evidence we have... and I'm sorry, while historians and archeologists etc have pieced together the puzzle to come up with a viable portrail of life 1000's of years ago IT IS NOT FACT! Its merely probable!

I am quite aware, thank you, of the Mayans Calendar and so forth I am equally aware there is great debate amongst the experts and furthermore, you are only taking those theories that you like and then trying to spin them as fact.

And frankly I can't make my mind up whether you actually believe in all this garbage or whether you're trolling, and I rather hope its the latter.

I don't know where the myth originated regarding the Mayan calendar and the date Dec 21, 2012 the world is going to end. That's not what the Mayan calendar is about and has to do with the long count and short count. (don't exactly understand all of it, but enough to know it has nothing to do with the end of the world) If you want a spiritual interpretation it's here:

"At sunrise on December 21, 2012 ‹ for the first time in 26,000 years ‹ the Sun rises to conjunct the intersection of the Milky Way and the plane of the ecliptic. This cosmic cross is considered to be an embodiment of the Sacred Tree, The Tree of Life ‹ a tree remembered in all the world¹s spiritual traditions.

Some observers say this alignment with the heart of the galaxy in 2012 will open a channel for cosmic energy to flow through the earth, cleansing it and all that dwells upon it, raising all to a higher level of vibration. "

This in itself may be the reason the Mayan's though it important.

First of all, you do notice that it falls on the winter solstace. This is the reason the date is important to the Mayan and has to do with understanding the way they used the calendar. No Mayan prophecy says anything about the end of the world.

As for witches being burned on Jersey and Jersey being part of the UK so the statment of witches being burned in the UK...

Well at various points in its history Jersey has been part of Germany (admitidly that was only Nazi occupation, but they thought they owned it!), France, Spain (again another short lived occupation around the Tudor period) as well as being totally indipendant... Indeed it has spent more time being 'owned' by France or being indipendant than being allied to the UK. So depending on when these burnings took place, Jersey may have been nothing at all to do with mainland England, British law or the European driven witch hunts / burnings.

Just a bit of cheakable history...

Be bright, be bold
Fillionous

O.k. well I'm new to this site so forgive me if i make a mistake but here's my tuppence worth.

Arcangel, it seems to me that you are an ideological communist! . Well, thats fine......in theory. But the world & the human race don't work like that. Communism has been tried before and never worked, simply becouse of human greed. We all want what someone else has got, it's human nature.
As for women running everything, it's been said before women are equally as flawed as men. take Catherine the great, take Thatcher !!

paganism should be what it is, each following their own path without intruding on others. Having said that, yes, I believe we should have a common voice putting across our views. But that "common voice should not be idealists, fundementalists. egotists, or, shall I say the more "flamboyant" pagans? it should be normal everyday people going about normal everyday lives but with a different set of beliefe to the "mainstream"

Hey Bri ,

Don't get stuck in the past.
I'm not having a go, but.

Brush me not with the brush you brush yourself and Humanity with,
for I am not like you..

I do not wish what other folk have,
although I've never had a lot anyway, I'm happy with what i can muster.
In my book nothings, fair in Love & War. what is human nature?
Is it to be defined by those who are not just? or those who cannot control their emotions,
I think not. nor did Socrates or Aristotle, as a Learned Man you'll know what that means.

We are from the Goddess, and to her we shall Return., in the 21st Century
BB

???????????? Sorry, lost me completley there. Who said I was a learned man ? simple & practical that's me.......With years of experience
Those here who know me can testify to that

No but in some of your posts you seem mighty keen that other folk have what you have



Which Goddess in particular, I do like to know where I'm going after all.

Kev

OTHERKIN!

[Brumwolf mode]

Can you lick your own balls?

[/Brumwolf mode]

Drach- who really should know better