Hi everyone,

I've been looking at some things in my practice of the Path and reviewing various aspects of it and when I came to look at the correspondences of the Circle I started to look at the elements and the way the are paired to the cardinal points.

Because my Path is following a Greek line, I looked at how the elements were percieved and found info on how Aristotle, Plato etc views them and I have also studied a diagram that shows how they had them all balanced. When I tried to make this fit to the structure of a standard circle (partly out of curiousity) I found that each time, I could only either get 3 of the 4 elements to balance according the Ancient Greek model OR I ended up with an element not where most people would think of putting it.

That lead me to think on why the elements are placed where they are by most people. I have looked into some of the reasons and agree with the whys and wherefores but back to my doodles and scribblings I have ended up with a circle layout like this:



I can make my reasons and understand them for having Fire in the East as the Sun rises there and the sun is about as fiery as you get. But when I've come to consider the possibility of having Air in the South, I can't quite come up with anything that I'm certain of. So far my main avenue has been to link Air/South with the Greek Wind Notus who was the south wind and bringer of the storms...I was sure I'd read somewhere about some traditions having Fire and Air in the East/South but I think I was confusing myself with the Athame/Wand being moveble between the East/South.

I'm open to all avenues of thought on whether Air (or any other elements for that matter) can't be put in other "quarters". Does anyone else here use a different structure with the elements? I've gone as far as my brain can with this at the moment so I'm hoping some fresh thinkers in the mix might open up new avenues and give me some food for thought!

Thanks in advance!

Kenn

If i remember right, I think Robert Cochraine used that method in his trad. I am also amazed at why the Artavus is seen as related to Air as the blade is forged within fire and wands being from trees are more suited to Air. I myself use this method in my compass rounds . Hope this helps . Wassail...wolverine.

as far as i understand it different paths place the elements in different positions, also which side of the equator you are on has an effect. i guess it must be something to do with where water/ the sun rises, in relation to where 'the craft' is being practised.

Ive always just accepted this as the general rule, but then again i very very rarely practise so it is little matter to me

Magical space is different to literal space. The elements can be in any direction you want them to be. If I’m standing next to a holy well on my right, facing literal North, no reason Water can't be in the East, makes more sense at that moment in time. Magic is beyond the boarders of physics: time and space are malleable.

I've always considered air-east to be linked to Europe and the mainland - lots of French people sitting in street-side cafés gassing away The dry air of the land rather than the wet air of the sea. The sun illuminates the sky (fire south being the equator).

Give whichever reason you like and turn them around. Being visually able to associate with what you're doing because the anchors are next to you may even help.

Slip into a realm where nothing exists, even the element. Stand on the sacred ground of your own two shoes - it's a state of mind

As all of the five elements are in everything, turning to greet them in different directions is just a formality in some traditions and religions, the rest of the time we recognise them as one.

Do it the way you want to do it or follow the precepts of your chosen path, in magical space it's inconsequential. Unless you're an RM, then everything is highly consequential and you'll probably give yourself a coronary before you're 50

Best wishes,

Marion.

I don't bother with directions. After all the air and earth are everywhere and fire can just as easily be up as south. As for water, well that depends on the weather.

But then I don't do circles either as such.

sometimes my freinds and i take directions before we call the quarters and we call as we wish so two or more can call same element any left out we all call together normally only when wiccans represent do we call quarters as calling quarters is a very wiccan thing to do, so north and west can be called air at same time

all other times we invite as applicable because there are more elements than quarters, if we need an element we send an invitation using that element.

fire write invitation on paper and burn.
water invite using water and so forth.
balance depends on whether you believe the elements can be balanced.

That can work well too if you use personalities. If you have four or more people whose personalities strongly identify with particular direction traits, they can call/represent those directions wherever they stand.

Best wishes,

Marion.

If you're going along the path of the Sun rises in the east etc etc then shouldn't Air be at the top and earth be at the bottom???

I can see logic to the elements being that way round as they are opposite their opposites ..

Water and Fire,
Earth and Air....

It would seem to give a better balence IMO.

TD.x.

ive always taken the elements as:

earth in the north where the mountains i love in scotland are,
fire in the south where its hot
water in the west where the atlantic are
air in the east cos its the only one left

but im not strict about it, mostly when you join other people for a circle, where some sense of formality helps focus the group.

when i was younger i remember getting in a tiz about not being able to put my alter facing the 'right' direction, read too much scott cunningham back then.

hmm.. you've started me pondeing may come back to this

luv elfdream

Some interesting points and views.



I get the principle of Air being in the North and Earth being in the South - makes sense; I'll have to have another play with them, though I imagine I'll end up with at least one element out of balance according to the Greek "Elemental Square". As it is even with Earth/North and Air/South they still have the balance, just not in the way they could also be percieved more physically.



Yep, same problem I'm having is that Air always seems to be the "only one left", lol!



Pondering...very dangerous indeed, lol! It's what got me started!

Brilliant, wished I'd had the sense to discover that shortly after starting out and not some years after When I first started out following the books I found different directions for each element and yet this was meant to be the same path. I then found my 'north' was always where the fireplace is. Later again along my path I find that I ditched directions and mainly only ever work with fire which is only ever infront of me and never at my side or behind, I always face it. After that water is the second element I work with. So directions/quarters do not play a part with me, but the elements as separate elementals do.

I have two fireplaces in the house and a fire in the garden, the energies found in my home and land would if I were to follow compass directions have swung right round again. They are where they are and with good reason, the land strongly dictates which energy rules and different parts of the garden and house are clearly more strongly connected with certain elements. Since my home is L shaped and the garden gate opens straight into the woods the energy here is completely controlled by that. The elements are stronger than ever here and I would not dare to tell them to shift round thataway because they're in the wrong place

I'm beginning to totally get the idea of the elements just "being". How can you pidgieon-hole the primal forces of Nature!? It makes sense to just accept that they're all around us in different forms, quantities and contexts all the time. I think "invoking" or at least acknowledging them in general is far better than facing a direction and trying to visually/psychically "compress" all the Fire energy into the East, South or whatever...more musings for me, but I think I'm getting the idea!

I am curious to know how you fit traditional Greek concepts together with a modern Wiccan-originated schema. Is it possible?

I have been struggling with a way into a magical space for myself, using the air-east, fire-south, water-west and earth-north layout that my local wiccan or wiccan-type people use when they conduct 'open rituals'. Not being initiated into their way of working, I find it hard to relate to this. Calling in the elements? But surely they are here already! And why should an element be related to a direction?

And some 'native-American' influenced groups place the elements in different directions. And now, having been directed by Sophia to the www.newagefraud.org site, I am wondering which, if any, native Americans actually place elements in quarters, as opposed to neo-shamans who want to set up their own system.

Maybe placing elements in quarters is purely a wiccan thing and the rest of us don't need to take it on board at all?

I have a background in Anthroposophy, a huge system of esoteric knowledge formulated by Rudolph Steiner out of Theosophy early in the last century. Anthroposophy is very Greek-derived. The four elements are related to the human bodies: earth relates to the physical body, water to the astral body, air to the etheric body, and fire to the 'ego', meaning the essential spiritual self rather than what Freud said.

Lately I have been trying out a system which doesn't place the elements in the four directions at all. They each have their own 'world' or 'field' and I move through from one to the next. I relate this to my garden, going on an imaginary journey through the arch, across the lawn (which is 'earth'), through a second arch and across the bridge over the pond (water, obviously), through the arch on the far side of the bridge into the orchard where I have a bird table representing 'air', and up to the tigress statue which conveniently represents 'fire' (tyger burning bright, fierceness of the hunt, mother defending cubs etc). We also have a wild corner which represents a fifth element, 'spirit'.

I relate to this more easily than to a circle. It feels like a progression from the densest element to the finest, which makes sense to me if I want to get from the physical into the spiritual.

That's what I endeavour to find out. I'm still very much in the early stages and there's every chance I could be parking up the wrong tree and get absolutely no where.

I've started with the basis and formation of a circle as it is something I am familiar with and was comfortable with. I am attempting to synchrtise as apposed to merely ecclecticise (!) my ideas and I don't doubt that I'm bound to come up against a lot of brick walls before I actually get somewhere.

At the very least, I want to acknowledge the Elements in some way.



I've looked at some of the differing ways the Greek's viewed the elements and am still researching. I've not come across Anthroposophy; maybe it's something I can look into.



That's a beautiful realising of the Elements Julai!



That's what I'm after; exploring different avenues to find what makes sense and what is right for me. I don't doubt that there'll be people who may not agree with what I finally come up with, but when I find what's right, I'll know.