I thought it was about time I started a topic (besides my introduction), so here goes...

Judging by the comments made on the various posts, it seems that most people in the Valley are solitaries with a personal interpretation of Paganism.

That's certainly true for me. As many of you know, my interest lies in the Arthurian symbolism, and reading the old legends gave me as much information and insight as any modern book on spirituality. I tend to do lots of reading and find the bits I can relate to.

I'm curious to know if this is the general trend these days. Even if I had the time, I don't think working in a group would be of any great interest to me.

So what do people think? Is Paganism in general moving away from coven / group / grove / tribe / clan-type worship towards solitary interpretation? Is it down to social / logistical factors, or a change in focus of beliefs?

Your observations will be most welcome.

I think that Paganism at present, although the most ancient system of beliefs on the planet, is in a state of re-birth and has been for maybe a hundred years or so now.

One of my initial points when comming to the valley was regarding the authenticity of modern Pagan practices and rites. I don't see that we can truly claim to really know exactly how Pagans practiced two or three thousand years ago let alone befor that. Although we can make a lot of good educated guesses based on Sumerian, Babylonian and Egyptian records, archeological and written, we still know little of ancient british practices. Much of what is known carries a lot of supposition with it, unproven you might say.

For many years we were thought of as a "bunch of nutters", this I think is now moderating slightly, people generally are becomming more tolerant of other views.

We are still a vast minority (I use that phrase purely because it amuses me as a contradiction in terms) which is why we aren't very organised. I'm not sure that a high level of organisation would be of benefit. Such organisation often leads eventually to restrictive dogma and "cult" status.


I'm fully aware that some of my points may be contentious but I don't at all mind playing devils advocate if that will promote serious debate, as debate for me is a great road to understanding.



Personally I think that we are much better as we are.
Sites such as this show the value of our freedoms.
We have many and varied opinions and paths without conflict.

I think the perceived shift is at least partly caused by:
The long hours culture;

more people tending to commute for at least an hour a day instead of working just down the road;

and maybe some people assuming that others are not reliant on public transport + legs when deciding where things will be.

Personally, i think its all down to circumstances, if i could i'd work with my family friends all the time for big stuff, unfortuantely they work and im in uni so this is not always possible....for more personal stuff, well then, hell yeah, i prefere working by myself

Personally having a highly organised Pagan authority to tell all what to do is about as likely as me winning the lottery and I don't play it, we are all to individualistic/strong willed even those who are members of groups/covens, Paganism is a group of religions where you have to think for yourself, thus you are more independent.

Because I am a commuter on public transport it is not really practical for me to work in a group/coven and personally I can do without the compromise and politics that are normally part of a group/coven.

Storm Raven

I'm not sure that paganism is moving away from coven/group practice as such, but I think it is becoming easier to work effectively as a solitary. There have always been solitary practitioners - its easy to overlook their place within the development of paganism because the most easily recognised developments have come about through larger groups such as Golden Dawn, which can tend to give the impression that paganism used to be a group 'thing' but is now becoming 'flooded' with solitary workers.

It used to be that to learn, you needed someone to teach you. Even if that wasn't as part of a coven, chances are they would teach at least one person as well as you and you would, at some point, work together. Recently it has become easier, through printed sources, the internet and increased opportunities for travel, to teach yourself at least the majority of what you need to begin on your chosen path.

And of course, personal preference is a big deciding factor as well. Even when I lived in Wales within easy reach of quite a large number of other pagans and one or two covens I preferred to work alone. I still do.

To paraphrase Pratchett, witches aren't good team players. I like doing the occassional working with a couple of friends but generally I keep magic to myself.

I heard a lecture recently given by Coven members. They believe that coven life is the best way to proceed in knowledge. I can see this, and also see how working with others would be mutually supportive if:

the group dynamics were right
there was a love of ritual and
the committment was there

As the witch giving the lecture put it: "You will find yourself led to your coven - don't fight it, if you go along naturally it will be right."

I am still swirling in the greater Pagan circle. I find this wonderful (I use the word wonder in its full meaning). If I am led further I imagine it will go beyond all my expectations in many senses.


BB
akasha

OxonPagan, I think you've hit the nail on the head with that point. Indeed for myself my learning has been pretty much entirely dependent on book learning. At the very beginning of my step into witchcraft I had the benefit of knowing a local older lady who was herself a witch and who pointed my in the right direction. The rest was left up to me, though she was always available to ask questions should I have any - though most things I was able to deduce for myself.

Certainly my network of like-minded pagan friends/aquintances would be very limited if it were not for the internet, but this in itself would not have prevented me from continuing on my path, simply made things a little more lonely (it's nice to know that you're not alone in your "nuttiness").

From my understanding of covens, I assume that even if two separate covens follow the same "tradition" they will not be exactly identical in their practices and emphases, as everyone is different and interprets things in their own way. Then when you throw the fact that there are loads of different traditions, plus solitaries, the community as a whole will be very hard pushed to make anything organised or cohesive. What can be done is for us to stand together united on the major issues like acceptance rather than derission.

Is there a growing trend of moving away from coven-only practice? Well, like you Stormwolf, on the face of things in such places as this forum, it would indeed appear to be the case - there are certainly more people interested in paganism than covens can accommodate, and when you are starting out you may feel rather cautious about grouping together with some of your mates to form your own coven without any previous experience. The other thing holding people back from "coven-ing" could well be that because everyone has a slightly different take on how things are and should be, they find it hard to find similarly like-minded people with which to coven for more than one event.

BTW, many people who do club/coven together also practice alone for their own enjoyment and development.

Then there are people like me, who started out alone so they could figure out if it was for them, then circumstances made them continue practicing alone (secrecy, lack of network connections) and finally decided that they had developed their own way so far that joining a group permenantly was impossible (because of how they had developed) and ultimately undesirable.

Not sure whether that ramble exactly answers your question, but that's my take on the situation.

I like the idea of meeting fellow pagans socially, but for ritual? no. I wouldn't feel comfortable, I didn't like the ritual in the church and I'm far too much of an individual to be led anywhere I felt ill at ease at.
Formal rituals worry me as I can sometimes feel that there are power issues within the group that detract from the initial true purpose of the meeting in the first place.
So I keep to myself & carry on doing what rituals I do in the harmony of the great outdoors where I feel close to the powers of the Godess & God.

cloudhare

I'm not trying to persuade anyone to do anything they don't want to do - but I want to defend pagan ritual. I take part in most pagan rituals to celebrate the wheel of the year. I find that the differences in pagan ritual from others I've attended are: all are encouraged to participate in the pagan ritual; the pagan ritual is informative and instructive as well as enjoyable (they are celebrations); the pagan rituals are not indoctrinating; and, although there may be a Priestess or Priest taking a role, they are not in control as clergy are - they are participants too.

Blessings

100% solitary. I don't trust other people - many of them are spiritually retentive, emotionally baggage-laden social limelighters.

Don't get me wrong - I'm a very social being Immensely enjoyed my time running a moot with my best friend back at Uni, love to be a team player, think the whole is more than its constituent parts in many cases and spheres of life. But when it comes to magick and 'self' - not a chance would I be putting that in the hands of anyone else without extremely good sense and reason.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge advocate of group meditation and I love open debate and discussion down the pub but the very sad fact of the matter, in my not so humble opinion, is - most people aren't worth working with.

Sorry, guess I'll never get invited to the Covenant of the Third Way's annual alcohol free BBQ this year, but still...

Another aspect to the solitary thing is that people are now beginning to believe their own natural powers. It used to be a case of hoping you would be mentored by an adept with 'magical powers' - now we have discovered we all have 'em! The need to be nurtured by a group or coven is not as great as it was when pagan practices were far more 'occult' than they are now. As was said, you only have to go on the internet for a couple of hours and you can apply for your witchy diploma!

I am still swirling in the greater Pagan circle. I find this wonderful (I use the word wonder in its full meaning). If I am led further I imagine it will go beyond all my expectations in many senses.


BB
akasha

[/quote]


Can i borrow this? its should be everyone's motto.

I personally would love to be able to join with ohs for some celebratory events, but most organized things are too far for me to travel.
I too think that rituals are so personal that to do them with others would distract from their personal meaning to me.

i am open to the idea of groups if i could learn and not have too much in the way of hierarchy. We are all equal.

I'd love to have a IRL group I could bob in and out of now and again, just to remind me I'm not a complete nutjob and there are others like me out there.
Mind you I do have the Valley again now, although it has been pointed out to me that you may well all be figments of my imagination...
The CHeshire Witches meet up once in a blue moon but I don't think we've ever had every member there at once.
BM
xx

IMO Paganism is no different to any other Path/faith. Or indeed, lack thereof.

It is ultimately up to the individual.

Different strokes etc.

I'm very much a solitary when it comes to my path and how I walk it, but I love camps and moots when you get a chance to mingle with people and realise that you're not 'that' odd really.

Well no more odd than any of the other people there...
BM
xx

Another Solitary here, and despite the difficulty sometimes that comes with working alone, would still much prefer it to the politics and hierachy of coven life. I'm also not a huge fan of organised ritual, honest and simple is what i'd go for.

Plus theres the moots when i've got some free time to actually go to them.

peace,
Mothy

I just have to go downtown to the Highstreet on a Friday night to know that


Marto

Although I generally work on my own, I really love getting involved in estatic group rituals. Though I would have to be comfortable in the group, and know that they were on the same page as me. For example, any magic that relies on heterosexuality (ie. things being created by the union of god and goddess, or male and female energy) is a complete block for me, as it doesn't relate to my experiances (in fact I know women who wern't allowed to participate in group rituals because they wern't hetero! grr).

Community is really important to me, and I feel that when it comes to spiritual matters having a group of friends you can discuss things with and seek advice and support from really helps. Even though I have friends who are much more experianced than me, I never feel like there's a hierachy, even when we go into ritual situation. I always feel like my opinion and thoughts on a subject are just as valid as anyone elses, which is really great. I have been to moots and met people who acted like what they had to say was obviously more important or more worth listening to because they were older than me, that made me angy. It's true that they've probably read more than me, and had lots more experiance, but we all have different experiances and can all learn from each other whatever our ages and the amount of time we've been on our path.

Because of these things, I can be a bit wary of going to a pagan group if I'm not sure what the feeling there is going to be like. However, community is very important to me, both socially and spiritually, and so I crave to be around like minded people for the growth and support of all involved. I probably do live in a bit of a bubble, but at least I'm aware of it, and it suits me well for the moment

Kristofski xx

The way the group I work with operates, we don't 'organise' rituals. Everyone gets to include their own experiences of what is happening in the 'spirit' realm at each point of the ritual. So when we cast a circle (and this is certainly not done in a traditional sense) for example, each person might describe how they perceive that circle and what its purpose is. The same goes for other aspects of the ritual. The aim is to encourage those gathered to reach out to perceive the 'spirit' realm and to enhance their own connection there. I've probably not explained that very well. But after working in a different group where ritual seemed to be a case of going through the motions, following a script (with people more concerned about getting their lines right than what they were supposedly doing spiritually and magically), a group of us decided we wanted to try something different. It already seems to be having a profound effect on those attending. (Samhain is likely to be a real kicker!)

The last ritual we did was a bit different. I led a shamanic journey... maybe not that different though, because everyone was journeying and having their own experiences with the otherworlds (shared later). But it had its roots in my solitary shamanic work. So I'd say I do both solitary and group.

BB

Mike

I think with the increasing ease which information is available out there, people no longer feel the need to seek out others to gain information. This leads to very personalised ideas and beliefs that can be incompatible within a group dynamic.

I think modern society also plays a part. People are more insular. Yes you can be in contact with anyone almost instantly but we are not actually meeting up with people in real life (whatever that is!) as much as we used to. Western culture is still driven by the individual and satisfying the needs of the individual, which again undermines a group dynamic.

As for myself, I have been a member of several groups and occasionally still work with some of them but I find my own beliefs and practises are incompatible with the main stream of paganism, which (in my area at least) is Wicca based. End result I tend to work alone.

On a side note, I'm not sure why Wiccans are forming groups as much as it was kinda the whole idea of the thing - coming together to worship. Probably all of the reasons above...