When I first started on my path, I was extremely cautious about who I told. I left telling certain members of my family until last, and only told very few close friends, I suppose I was scared of being persecuted in some way for being outside 'the norm'. However, as time went on I realised that Pagans/Witches/Witches etc. weren't as much in the minority as people thought, and over the years this has led to a real sense of relaxation about my path. Now I find it all too easy to just talk about it quite openly without thinking, not as a way of appearing different, to shock or impress, but because to me it's so normal, it's just my way of life. Do you think if we were more open about it (I'm not talking about trying to convert others), it would eventually become more accepted or would we be laying ourselves wide open for trouble?

Well, I live in the states, and am staying in the closet!! lol

People do know I believe in astrology and reincarnation, etc..

Some, sigh, can barely handle that! lol and arghhh.

The Uk just sounds more open-minded, maybe then here.

I just say I'm spiritual and let it go at that.

My own mom, who belives in astrology, reincarnation and even ghosts can't handle that I might be a witch!!... she is a bit psychic herself, but almost fainted when at a used bookstore, I bought my first witchs book, a SRW.. i tried to show it to her, but she couldn't handle it.. Now i hear jesus name, more than ever, aRghhhhhhhhhhh!! and ugh!!

We weren't even raised religious, but in the Unitarian church, which is basically a nothing place, I can't stand it! lol sooo wishy washy!!!

and my xian friends?? i really really wonder, if no matter how long we've been friends, if they actually heard the words pagan and witch.. when we can't even discuss simple astrology (and some believe I'm going to h*ll, sigh), if that wouldn't be just tooo too much for them!! Luckily, they live long distance and can't see my home, with my altar!! LOL

Plus, as my "spiritual" home, is in the deep south, mention the words pagan and witch? I think Not!!! lol

people already think i'm different enough, as it is!! lol
umm being bipolar can do that!

naw, I'm happy where I am. I've got great online friends, who are all pagan/witches and sigh....... that makes it alll Wonderful and sooo much easier!!

Thank goodness, for the net!!! Some of my best friends, I've never even met, but will someday!!

and thank goodness for forums like these!!

Blessings Whispered~

Whispered, which part of the States are you from? It seems to me that the East and West coasts are similar in regard to being out of the broom closet (Oregon excepted, obviously), while the South and Mid-West are Bible-belt country.

As for myself, if someone asks, I'll tell. I wear my pentie at work all the time, now, and have only gotten one odd look thus far. Actually, my customer looked both nervous and paranoid...

Dryad

hi dryad, right now, I'm back on the west coast, sunny san diego ca.

Yet, trust me, theres still alot of xians here. I had a new neighbor who I was becoming friendly with and then all of a sudden, she streaks away.. then I realized she was in my house and must have seen my pentagram I had on a board, deep sigh...

Plus, most people in san diego are from the midwest or other places, some , not all. lol Theres alot of mexican's here who are very Catholic. One of my best friends, is mexican-american, can't imagine telling her!!!

Yeah, right, when living in deep deep bible belt country, I would have been stoned!! LOL

I've always lived in small towns, when I lived in the south, so nooooooooooo way, would I possibly tell anyone or wear a pentacle.

Small towns there, everyone knows everyone, even if you don't! lol

to me, being pagan is soo natural, but here its the devil, deep deep sigh and very very misunderstood. I'm not going to even bother trying to make anyone understand. They can also be very close minded, esp in the south!!!!
ahh well!

You would not believe how many churches and signs, I have to pass, in the south, that are soo religous and self rightous tht make you puke, truly!

Whispered~

Just like you Sulla, when I first started I kept it totally hush hush, didn't breathe a word of what I was studying. A few people knew of my net searches but I do a lot of writing and mostly it was easy to dismiss as book reasearch.
However, the more I got to living my path, the more natural it became to just have stuff around. I nearly always wear my pent. I've always spoken openly about my spiritual views, I love a good debate - but I usually leave out the 'oh, and I practice magick' bit

Recently I told two close friends. It got to the point where I felt I was keeping something from them, as they know nearly everything else about me - our friendship was on such a level of closeness, it was like I was lying rather than just omitting details. So I told them, independently. And they really weren't at all surprised. But I'd only tell someone if I 'had' to, I don't advertise it, I have a few evangelical Xtian friends I don't really want them to go off on a violent conversion kick!

I have replied to a similar topic to this on another forum.

I think this is a double edged sword that I have mulled over on many occasions and i'm as of yet unsure of the answer- on one hand, one's religious beliefs are personal, and we have the right to divulge as much or as little information as we like, especially if there is potential conflict/predjudice. On the other hand, perhaps if more pagans spoke out about their beliefs and insisted that we AREN'T satan worshippers who drink blood, we'd eventually be more accepted. Maybe we need to go through an "In-Your-Face" phase like other minority groups have.

(Is there a "Pagan Pride" march!!! )

On the whole, I'll say the same thing about religion as I have about sexuality- it's a personal matter and I don't know why there is all this pressure to "come out". Tell those who show an interest. It's uneccesary to shove our personal practices of any nature into people's faces.

There are many paths up the hill but the view from the top is the same.
Valkyrie.

As a rule of thumb, if there's anything you're keeping from anybody,
and somebody else is threatening to tell your secret in order to hurt you, it's better to "out" yourself.

If you "out" yourself, at least you have a chance to put whatever you were hiding in the most favourable light. Plus, you won't be hurting somebody twice by letting them find out something they might not like as well as finding out that you've deceived them. There can still be unpleasant consequences, so it's a good idea to plan what you'll do if the worst happens.

Sorry, back to answering the question:
IMHO it's because people like the Farrars, Alex & Maxine Saunders, Chris Bray etc took that risk that supplies and information are easier to get than they used to be. Thanks to Helen Duncan refusing to claim that her predictions were fraudulent, the Witchcraft Act was eventually repealed. Thanks to people being willing to risk setting up the Pagan Federation, there are now several sources of information and contacts for people who aren't even sure if they might be on one of the many Pagan paths.

If not for people who took the risk then, maybe more than a few people on this board would still be outwardly Christian. but inwardly something else.

IMHO (in the UK at least), it's not as bad "out of the broom closet" as it might be in the USA. Police officers , and other arms of the state & public service employees are not allowed to show any religious bias or other prejudice. When they do, the rogue behaviour is usually rooted out pretty quickly.

Maybe there's a parallel with the gay scene: Come out and have a difficult now for the sake of some distant, easier future; or stay hidden as long as you can but face a more difficult future.<steps off soapbox>

(edited because forgot the spelling of Alex's surname, how embarassing is that?)

I'm going to take that a little bit personally! lol and arghh

You come to the states, to the south and see how much it achieves, being open and pagan.. and see how well, the local police and fire dept response to you!!

What I am open about and educating people on is being bipolar.

I can't and won't do both.. I can get thru to people about being manic-depressive and the importance of meds and therapy..which trust me is Hard, . but being pagan.. umm nooo...

Hard enough dealing with a "mental Illness" and educating people!

So, for me, I'm still achieving something, and yes it takes people courage of convenctions, to state who they are and follow that path.

Great, good for them and for opening the doors, but for those, who are in the closet, hey we have good reasons, to be! I do anyway!

I'm open about believing in ghosts, reincarnation and astrology, i think thats more than alot of people can handle, in some places, LOL

Pagan and witch?? ummm nooo, besides don't ya know, the confederate war is still being fought in the south? Lol

TOTAL different mindset, in the south!!! Until you've really experienced, seen it and dealt with it, ... and understand sweet tea,... then you don't know! sorry but lol

Watched Jeff Foxworthy, think those are just jokes?? umm Noooooooooo, alot of truth in there!!

So, I may not come out and say, the words witch, but astrology , reincarnation sure and yes, I'll still get strange looks, lol.

and maybe I jumped too fast on you, sorry!! lol.. I need chocolate!! wow, what an excuse huh? LOL

always keep a sense of humor about one!

Blessings Whispered~

Hi there

I didn't think I was fully out until I realised people knew anyway.
The final thing was when my Benefits Advisor said goodbye and 'blessed be' to me as I left my appointment with him . I had never given any indication that I was a witch. Ok, so I aren't of the path using that term but he knew I was Pagan, or had a strong idea.
When I started uni all the Pagans there knew.
I now tell anyone who brings up the subject but I don't volunteer the information if it is not relevant at the time. Just as I never did when I was a passive C of E member.
I have however now got a gorgeous pentacle around my neck which is bigger and decidedly noticable than my other small athame pendant. So anyone with any knowledge can tell. *(Cept those who think I am Jewish lol)
If I thought it would interfere with my life when I had other things to consider (Whisperedwind case in point), I would not bother outing. My path is personal to me and I can follow it whether or not people know who or what I am.

luv Sea x

I realise that there are situations where staying in the closet may be safer for the time being. I still think that if you're going to be found out soon it's better to out yourself, on your own terms first.

Whisperedwind, I had hoped people were a little more enlightened about being bipolar. Then again, in the UK having one episode of clinical depression (whther bipolar or unipolar, even if fully recovered and years ago) can badly affect your chances of getting a job

IMHO ridiculous, as most people will have at least one form of clinical depression, at least once, in their lives.

I can absolutely appreciate that there are good reasons for wanting to stay in the closet - as Whispered as said - there are environments which are distinctly hostile and it would be foolish to not recognise that.

I came out of the closet a couple of years ago to my parents and about 18 months ago to my work and to friends. Through choice - I was fed up with keeping a major part of me secret as though I was ashamed of it. And I'm damn glad I did - not long after I came out, my ex decided to "out" me in a newspaper after we split up. It was horrific beyond words (some scars will never heal) but the only saving grace about it was the fact that my friends, and the people I had to work with were already aware of my beliefs and so the newspaper "revelations" didn't come as such a shock...

I don't make it a big thing, don't introduce myself by saying 'Hello, I'm Sarah and I'm a witch' but I don't hide it either. People can take it as they want to as long as they don't get insulting.

"Comming Out" ...these are the times when you find out who your freinds are.

If people should choose to disassociate with you after they learn of your beliefs then maybe they weren't the freinds that you thought they were.

In this instance, how can we be honest with ourselves if were not honest with those around us when asked.

The key being when asked, were not evangelists, our beliefs are personal and if neccessary private.

I have mixed opinons about this.

With all due respect to Whispered, I do think that people make a mountain out of a molehill. Your spiritual beliefs are, first and foremost, deeply personal. There is no reason why you should have a problem keeping things to yourself. The "oops I let it slip" seems attention seeking to me, there is no reason why you can't be honest with yourself and be inconsipcious.

You should be able to share your beliefs with your friends and family, but if you fear your personal safety then either move to somewhere more cosmopolitan or learn to keep yourself to yourself without having a victim complex.



Yep, those evil Christians just look at how they spout their intolerant messages Did it ever occur to you that they might just be sharing their beliefs with others (the way you long to do)? Drop the drama.

I'm starting university next month, I don't intend to be dishonest, but I can't see the topic coming up that often.

Spirited

I never "came out" in a formal sense. I was put in the position of becoming a church goer so that my boys could attend our local (C of E controlled) primary school, it was the nearest to where we live & I wanted them to stay with their friends.
Lets just say that I didn't fit in, I went so far as to become confirmed, but communion!!! I could not get my head round it! The curate was a tolerent soul & we had some good rational discussions on our varying view points & we respected each other. He was too tolerent for some of the evangelical types in the community & they worked to get him out. I felt it was hypocritical to pretend & stopped going to church. Some friends respected this & accepted my beliefs, one suggested that I still came to church as nobody she knew really practised what they preached & that I was more of a christian than most of them.
I didn't go back but began to follow my instincts & became a solitary witch with an insatiable curiosity in other beliefs and a respect for all who try to follow a spiritual path. I don't deny my beliefs if challenged but the christians tend not to want to listen to any explanations, & they usually approach me in Tescos, not the best place to entre into any sort of debate. The best way to deal with it is to be polite, have a sense of humour & never never allow yourself to be backed into the freezers!!

Blessed be

Cloudhare

I'm open about what I am and if asked will tell people and disabuse them of the usual misconceptions, if they don't like it they can lump it, I am generally big enough and nasty enough not to have a problem.

Storm Raven

I'm totally open about it I ave no problems with telling people. I actually get a lot more stick for being gay than I do with being Pagan...most people say Really? thats very interesting and then we end up having huge conversations about spirituality..but i have never been received negatively. But then I have this really freindly face heh

ya know spirited, I never said I felt victimized, I don't.

Drop the drama? and you "should' be able to tell your friends and family..

should is an operative word and drama, means you know nothing about the south, in the states! and I was being factual, and I do share my beliefs,
here in the forums.




Interesting, on your profile, you share Nothing about yourself.. hmm

I don't thinkl its really that im;portant if you tell anybody. Do it if you want to and don't if you don't.

From what I've heard people in the Southern States of America are wise to keep their spirituality quiet. It does sound pretty awful down there, and most people I know over the internet deem it wisest to keep their mouths shut. It is a shame that a country that preaches freedom of speech and religion actually breeds some of the most bigotted and intolerant people.

In the UK, apart from a couple of friends who are teachers, most of my pagan friends are able to be pretty open about our beliefs. None of us go around wearing huge pentacles (cue for major piss take if we did!), nor do we spend all day wafting round in black velvet trying hard to look like pagans and witches. (One interview we did when they asked what we wore, I just happened to be wearing my Versace suit!! That shocked the interviewer.) We just get one with it and treat our religions with respect, but not shouting it from the rooftops. At work I am very open, and I am lucky to work for an employer that actively encourages my pastoral and pagan community work. My partner, Martin, works for a small engineering/manufacturing firm and his company are equally supportive and tolerant. I think if you don't make a big fuss about it then people are puzzled but tolerant.

bb
Rhiannon

when i get to uni i'm gonna become more honest about who i am

my friends know my path and they're not bothered

when i was 16 i discovered paganism, i told my friends but not my parents

i told my mum a year and a half after discovering the path that felt right to me, i was actually brushing my teeth at the time she didn't seem suprised, i then worked out why - her and my dad delete the history and the temp internet files quite often so they knew the places that i was going

it was a bit harder trying to explain to my dad what i wanted to use his credit card for when setting up pagan life again though, but now they don't mind, although whenever a christening is mentioned my mum will always give me a look to remind me that i was once christened, but they don't follow christianity really anyway

i don't go up to people and say straight away that i'm a pagan, but if i'm asked then i'll tell someone because i'm not ashamed of who i am, and if i xtart to get close to someone then i'll mention it because they're bound to find out sooner or later and it could be the end of a friendship because i kept part of myself hidden from them

or at least, that's how i see it

When I was a xtian I didn't feel the need to run round shoving it down peoples' throats, my opinion hasn't changed. If it comes up in conversation then I'll talk about it, and most people are interested in at leasst what being a pagan/witch actually involves. A xtian I was at college with last year was still undr the devil-worshipping baby-eating impression. We had a good chat about it and ended up having some really good conversations about religion.

My family know, my b/f's family know. Mostly they think I'm into herbalism and looking after the planet while being a nice person - not that far from the truth, I obviously just don't talk about hexes

I can see why some people would want to be able to tell everyone, but as my mum's said about people who go on Pride marcches, it's really egotistical to think that there are that many people who care.

Unfortunately, the minority who really do care about who you sleep with, who you love, and what you worship (or don't) can still make life very unpleasant.

Fortunately, most of the time UK law can be used against them, but it often doesn't make their behaviour more pleasant before you've managed to take the matter through the courts.

IMHO the point of the Pagan Pride march (and the Gay Pride parades) is saying "we're a minority, but a large minority so start treating us better".

If you're not mainstream, it can be difficult to find support when you feel discriminated against (or shunned by society). It can be little things, like the home education of your children being investigated more often than any other home educating family in the area. Or finding that your graduation ceremony will be held in a Cathedral.

Or bigger things e.g. -
Children at school being taught about every religion and faith except yours;
Having no legally recognised ministers of religion and therefore fewer chances of getting your passport photo endorsed;
Being told to keep your religious jewellery discreet or hidden (to avoid giving offence) while seeing others wearing very conspicuous crosses and nobody raising an eyebrow.
Finding that all the respite homes and daycentres in your area are set up to cater for monotheists. Polytheists (and Atheists) etc pay council tax too, so if services are to be set up along religious lines, there should be provision for all.

For what it's worth, I was outed by somebody being silly on the phone. They left a message at my parents' home (while I was out) a couple of days after being to an open ritual, and didn't have the sense to not mention that that was where I'd been.

This after being very careful and discreet, keeping everything well hidden. Got me fast-tracked onto the housing list, but really could've done without the hassle.

It's great that you don't feel victimised, I did state "with all due respect" at the top of my post so that you would realise it wasn't a personal attack - obviously I haven't been tactful enough.

I think you've missed my point. I'm saying that since religion is such a private thing, you shouldn't have a problem keeping it to yourself - and if you do feel the need to express it openly then you should move to somewhere you feel safe doing so. I wasn't suggesting that you should "out" yourself to the USA right wing brigade. I'm against the splurting out of your religion to all and sundry, you might want to reread my previous post with that in mind.

I don't really feel the need to fill out my entire profile, if you want to know more about me then you can search for my introduction in the introduction forum (it has Spirited in the title) or you could just ask next time.

-------- boring info about me as requested by Whispered Wind -----------

What the heck *takes a deep breath* - I'm nineteen next month, I'm engaged to the most wonderful man, I'm starting university this year (to study Chemistry), I have a border collie puppy called Loki, we live in Exeter, Devon (UK). I'm originally from Scotland, have four siblings, don't get on with my dad or older sister. I'm interested in starting a web design business and I love to read. My favourite books are the Harry Potter series, LotR and His Dark Materials - it seems a tight genre but they are the most loved and thumbed through on my shelves, in reality I'll read just about anything.

Spirituality wise I'm pagan (for the past few years) and an atheist agnostic - I'm more interested in the philosophical ideas surrounding paganism rather than in religious observances and I haven't got a specific name for my path - I draw influences from Druidry, Shamanism, Asatru, Tao and there is probably a smattering of my Christian upbringing. I try to blend my influences together and demand that they have their roots and context in the local land and community.

I haven't filled out my profile because I'm busy as an admin on TeenPagan and a moderator on a multi-faith forum as well as a member of other forums and I get a bit fed up of filling out profiles. Besides I don't think that a profile can really do anyone justice. I can get passionate over certain issues though I tend to see more than one side to an argument. I'm (or trying to be) compassionate, imaginative and honest - I try to walk the line between being respectful and compassionate to others and cutting out the crap for myself. Some folks might recognise me from other sites in my previous name MagickWolf and my real name is Pamela. See.. not that interesting really.

---------------------------------

See what happens when you feel the need to blurt out to strangers your life story. You end up sounding really boring...

As for university, I'll tell people if it crops up, but I don't think it is likely to be a popular topic. I don't feel the need to broadcast my spirituality, and I doubt people are that interested anyway.

While not the most interesting things to read, bios are useful cos they give you some idea of the kind of person you're dealing with. But they're a pain to write cos no matter what you put it never quite seems to encompass who you are.

I don't think anyone should think that someone's trying to hide who they are just because they haven't filled in a profile. But at the same time I think we're all kinda keeping an eye open for potential trolls, so it's almost fair to be a bit guarded about those with no bio until you've got a measure of them.

I feel comfortable keeping my beliefs to myself but have completed an Equal Opportunity Questionnaire stating I was Pagan really because I wanted to be sure I wasn't going to be treated with prejudice. Funnily enough, once I made it part of the record it seems I have been accepted more than before (it was a relief to be so open about it and I know my attitude has changed too).

I still notice that if I wear too much pagan jewelry at one time people get nervous. It might be the clanging of the beads and chains together or maybe the fact that some of the pieces look shamanistic. But most people know I'm "different" without me having to explain what the difference is. So mote it be.



By the way Fuzi, I do agree with you. I added your quote and forgot to mention why.

That's intersting Akasha...the jewellery.

I've had more good conversations with non Pagans about our comparitive beliefs started by their interest in my Jewellery and Tattoes than anything else.

They usually see the Pentogram around my neck and start with a well intentioned christian "do you know what that means ?", Allowing me the oportunity to respond with something along the lines of a humorous 'yes, do you ?' The same applies to a couple of my Tattoes.

I'm still in the position of feeling able to talk to those expressing interest without at all feeling any need to evangelise "at" people.

We have to be totally honest with ourselves whilst being totally honest but diplomatic with those around us.

My second tattoo was a really stylised pentagram, I designed it and the bf paid for it as an xmas pressie the first year we were together. It's not an instantly visable one as I have to make a conscious decision to show it to people as it's kinda inside the knicker-elastic area But even if I don't show it I have no problems telling people. I think it worries some people more than the cute and delicate pentagram that I wear around my neck because it's permanent.

The standard question is "But what if you change your mind about your path?"
I usually point out that it's highly unlikely that my path's gonna change, but if it does then I will have a reminder of what I believed before.

Even though I was raised in a "christian household" my heart has been Pagan since I first "found Paganism" at I suppose the age of around twelve. At 39 I really don't believe my heart will change.

I've got several tattoes all of which appear fairly abstract unless you know the subject matter and all in places that can be covered if the need arises.

People have been telling me for the last twenty years that I'll regret them one day.
So far they're wrong.

Don't Tattoes carrying symbolism and not carrying regret indicate an understanding and acceptance of ones self.

Honesty with ones self, I think is the starting point, the rest follows.

Nice line... maybe we should put it in the 'quotes' thread