Well, I'm not here that much these days, but I saw the whole Arddhu thing, and went to their website. One thing that particularly stuck out to me was the part saying

"ARDDHU condemns the New Age naivety of 'Interfaith' and declares fealty with those who have sworn no reconciliation can ever exist between christian church and Witchdom."

I thought this was interesting - it's almost as if this says that their opposition to Christianity is part of the core of Arddhu. I'm curious, I know that many people see Christianity as "the other side" when talking paganism, but how do people feel about the whole interfaith thing. More to the point, do people feel either way about it at all?

To answer the question from my point of view (only polite, since I asked! ) I'm not always sure about what people mean by "Interfaith" but it strikes me as a non-issue to me. My faith is very, very personal. I don't go for a coven, group, or whatever - it's pretty much just me, the trees, dirt and grass, and any books I happen to like. (And the midges, to be fair...) At the same time, I certainly don't have any problem if people want to bang their heads against the wall getting Christians to somehow "recognise" pagans.

Any thoughts? Maybe the new Arddhu bloke wants to comment?

Interfaith... I don't think is possible for the simple reason the xtain religion says it is the one true way and if you don't believe you're going to hell. They are entitled to believe that, and the majority will accept that I believe differently.

They can pray for me if they wish, they can even have a conversation with me and try and make their point...... just as I can turn around and say "Sorry I don't agree and I'm still going to believe what I do."

Interestingly just had a conversation on the phone with Queenie about this and I agree with her view that in some ways xtainity is disadvantage in that they have doctrine all written down and it doesn't really leave much maneouver..... whereas in paganism we don't have any doctrine, it gives us a freedom that the xtain faith cannot duplicate.

Which is a wordy way of saying "each to their own."

When I was working for the military, my office was at the opposite end of the building from the command chaplains. These two fellows were the most colourfully ironic characters with a very trying job, giving council to so many of the social problems typical of any military community. At the end of the week when they had their fill, they would come down and drag me off to their domain- posting a sign "gone to confession" before they locked the door. Being the "local friendly pagan", I was that "neutral party" to whom they could divulge their most uncanny experiences, and after a good dose of communion wine, we would get into some amusing theological discussions. These discussions were never imposing, rather, a delightful exploration of faiths.

Now if interfaith can work something like that, I can see no problem at all. Its just unfortunate that a few dinosaurs in the Vatican still insist on living in the dark ages, while the rest of us are simply trying to get on with life.

21st century interfaith is possible, with more educated we become the more agnostic we become, less suseptible(?) to religious bias, we no longer need to be told what to think and feel. As well as my polytheist/pagan/witch friends i have muslim, jewish and christian friends too, away from the dogma of the dictotorial faiths we endured throughout school. we are able to share philosophies, music, art, cinema and talk openly (sometimes debate very loudly) in essense share.
all religion is big business those priests, rabbis and clerics need us to spend and believe.

looking at the quote you posted I agree to a certain extent with it, though I am incredibly bias on the matter, due to the fact I spent most of my life being crammed full of christian views and ethics and morales that I can't stand. Though I shant rant on about them, you may be reading for a few days! I suppose when it comes to interfaith it depends on what other faith you chose to follow, I think it would be very hard to have both christian and pagan beliefs, as christians don't really leave much room for pagans, well, no room at all tbh.

I'm abit uncomfortable with the whole anti-christian attitude of some pagans.

But then again, I'm abit uncomfortable with the whole evangelical attitude of some christians.

I would say, for the most part, I find it unnecessary(sp?) to engage in the debate during my everyday life. Cos if I don't inquire (enquire?) about their spiritual life they won't inquire about mine.

Which, in a small community, suits me fine.

It's an interesting debate (exploration of ideas) to be had in safe and neutral circumstances but such conditions are rare.

Should we start by defining 'pagan', 'christian' and 'interfaith'? Erm, we'd best not. That could take a while

'Interfaith' is just like every other Inter-<thing>. What's most important are the attitudes of the people involved. As such, generalisations are difficult .

Interfaith with the 'typical' (from a hard-put-upon pagan's point of view) religiously intolerant 'thou shalt not suffer a witch to live' christian is, of course, difficult/impossible... as is interfaith involving any other rabid group, including rabid pagans

If both sides make an effort, harmony can be achieved - even if such harmony only goes as far as "I think you're going to suffer in hell when you die, but that's your choice" - it's when one side or the other gives up, or becomes unreasonable, that interfaith (or anything else) fails. Two people - or groups - with philosophical differences can live alongside each other with few difficulties, as long as most people are reasonably calm about stuff.

Life would be boring if everyone agreed with each other - we just have to keep petty disagreements like "the fundamental nature of existence", for instance, from affecting us in our day to day lives.

xF,

...Nick

Good point made nick, yes, I think I've just met "Unreasonable" people lol not to great an experince i've had with this sort of thing.

Not so much whether Interfaith is good or bad - rather is there a point to it? The questions anyone wanting to join an Interfaith group might want to ask are these:



If your Interfaith group is an advisory body - who does it advise and do they take any notice?

Who's already in the group? Who put them there, how much power have they got and how do you get rid of them? (Tony Benn's fave questions to put to people in power)

What do you hope to achieve? Is it feasable? Can it be done more successfully through another channel - ie: a specific lobby group.

Do you really represent anyone other than yourself? No reason why you shouldn't but be clear about it.

[quote=evermorelong,Oct 3 2006, 09:50 PM]
21st century interfaith is possible, with more educated we become the more agnostic we become, less suseptible(?) to religious bias, we no longer need to be told what to think and feel.[QUOTE]

I would question whether interfaith would ever be possible with regard to Witchcraft. That does not mean I condemn other belief systems - as you say people are free to believe what they like

The problem is that Witchcraft continues to defy and challenge the very foundations of Christianity and the validity of what it preaches - hence the statement 'there can be no reconciliation'. There is nothing even at a basic level that could enable Witches to work hand in hand with Christianity..

Like it or not many of the new age paths followed today including Wicca come from Christian origins or have Christian theologies woven in - so while interfaith may be fine for those paths it has no place in Witchcraft.

-...I hope that answers the original question....

Dear Nick,

I'm strongly in favour of interfaith and believe that as long as you retain a realistic awareness of its limitations, it can be of significant benefit to both the Pagan community and the wider society. It's important to understand the aim is not to agree with each other, but simply to improve reciprocal understanding and encourage respect.

"If your Interfaith group is an advisory body - who does it advise and do they take any notice?"

Interfaith groups often have an advisory role with local and national government, and other civic institutions. Participation can result in the inclusion of information on Paganism in diversity education resources, improved provision for Pagans in hospital chaplaincies and crematoria, and many other benefits.

"Who's already in the group? Who put them there, how much power have they got and how do you get rid of them? (Tony Benn's fave questions to put to people in power)"

It's important to realise interfaith is not just about talking to Christians. There are also Muslims, Sikhs, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews and other, smaller, faiths out there. Some of them, particularly Buddhists and Hindus will often be sympathetic to Pagans once they understand something about us. Members of civic IF groups are almost always representatives of organisations. They don't have power but can develop degrees of infuence. Getting rid of individuals is something you have to take up with the organisations they represent. Getting rid of entire groups would run counter to the ethos of interfaith.

"What do you hope to achieve? Is it feasable? Can it be done more successfully through another channel - ie: a specific lobby group."

I've already listed some of the benefits. Yes, it's much more effective than specific lobbying because Pagans are a small and much misunderstood religious grouping, therefore we get taken more seriously when operating within an established civic framework.

"Do you really represent anyone other than yourself? No reason why you shouldn't but be clear about it."

People active in this sphere almost invariably represent specific religious organisations with an interest in the civic sphere. Inevitably it attracts the more liberal and open-minded folk from all faith communities, people who don't feel threatened by encountering different religious beliefs. But these liberal wings still connect back to the mainstream of their communities and can sometimes help to influence them.

Again, it's important to keep expectations realistic, but patient and reasoned education/negotiation through the civic interfaith process can achieve significant progress over the years.

BB,

John Macintyre

I'm not sure that 'interfaith' is a valid concept to apply to or about witchcraft, certainly not for me. Faith comes into it, I have faith and belief that it is what I am and what I do and that it works, well it can't not work to my way of thinking.
But I don't have a 'faith' to 'inter' with!
One thing I wonder about, Christianity the religion is often the sh*ts, especially fundamentalist crap, but Christ himself seems to have been a gnostic and that is very close to 'witch'. I saw a great documentary once that reckoned Judas was too and that he was the only one that saw Christ's teaching clearly and helped with the sacrifice. Fits well with my understandings.
jape

Interfaith is an important tool to increase awareness and acceptence of the many varied belief systems. If the group is run on the basis to share knowledge and offer explanations and understandings between the many 'sides' then this is true interfaith and can only be a good thing. John has really said everything I could say (if I was awake enough to think it this early on)

Consider this: how many folks here are tired of being told that Pagans sacrifice babies and worship Satan?
Well interfaith can help to educate people in those matters where prejudice and lack of true info has perpertrated myths like these.

As regards to witchcraft, well there it gets a little difficult. Not all witches work their craft as a faith, and indeed a few that do so might base it around their existing Christian faith (not that they'd tell the Vicar of course). As such it may well exist outside of the remit of interfaith but then again there are witches who worship deities from within their craft so then again maybe it doesn't.

Thing is if interfaith helps Christians (and other religious groups) understand just what witchcraft is and helps at least some of them to put aside their prejudices then where is the harm in that? True, faiths that have the 'one true faith' clause built in are never going to accept any other belief system as being valid, but it is possible for them to live alongside them and leave the judgement to their own God.

As a question to our Arddhu members, I would like to ask where they take the emnity Christianity shows towards witchcraft from: is it a Biblical passage, documented acts of anti-witch action or something else?

K

every religion teaches tolerance and understanding- yet in all religions neo ones included they dont seem to be able to practise what they preach. We are all flawed individuals we only see the universe through our own eyes. should we not be able to look beyond past grievences. i try i fail, i usually apologies, i try again.


"Consider this: how many folks here are tired of being told that Pagans sacrifice babies and worship Satan?"

been accused of that one, and of sacrificing chickens and drinking their blood.

Dear Severedsolo,

"Like it or not many of the new age paths followed today including Wicca come from Christian origins or have Christian theologies woven in"

I see. Could you remind me of the Christian origins of such Wiccan practices as honouring Pagan Goddesses & Gods, empowering women as priestesses, using magic, living by a predominantly humanist approach to ethics, recognising divinity as immanent within the living earth, working skyclad, putting personal responsibility above doctrine, rejecting religious intolerance and celebrating sexuality, amongst others?

I'm afraid it's many years since I went to Sunday school, and I obviously slept through that bit .

Also a little puzzled about the reference to 'new age paths'. While some people would fit all modern Pagan traditions - Arddhu included - into the New Age framework, it makes more sense to view them as a distinct and somewhat older movement. Obviously there are some overlaps, but then the New Age stuff automatically tries to overlap with everything - it's a kind of spiritual universal solvent .

BB,

John Macintyre

Q. How do you tell the difference between a pagan and a new-ager?

A. Throw them both into a river. The pagan will float, whereas the new-ager will sink under the weight of all those over-priced crystals...

More seriously, "New Age" is an interesting concept, since it basically refers to the Age of Aquarius - and so covers people from Aleister Crowley to your ^ stereotypical ^ new-ager. Quite a spectrum, wot?

As to the Christian origins of Pagan stuff... it all got a bit mixed up c.300-c.1500 - anyone who can separate that muddle out and say with absolute clarity that something is christian, with no pagan influence (or even vice-versa) is a braver wo/man than me.

Of course, interfaith isn't really about working 'hand-in-hand' - that's working on a unified theology, which is a whole new kettle of Baha'i fish (I'm almost certain that's not spelt right, but you get the idea).

xF,

...Nick

At last.Do you wish to explain to me here and now why you are cited as the principal source of rumours directed at Arddhu.Perhaps the people here would,like me,wish to see evidence of the claims you make against us.How do you arrive at such conclusion?We do not know you,our sources are the people who betrayed you from the forums you used to attack or mock us.

The new Arddhu bloke says that Interfaith is a tool used to dilute not just witchcraft but all foms of paganism.

Objection.Arddhu is not Pagan nor Modern.

Mod hat on

Can I suggest that if there're going to be any posts relating specifically to Arddhu that a fresh thread be started? And that we keep THIS thread to discussing interfaith?

Mod hat off

Interfaith....

Well I no longer really see the point. Through working with born agains, I've found that there is no way on this planet that they'll ever actually accept any other faith and instead of leaving us to get on with our own - they'll do everything they can to try and convert us. I've repeatedly had to tell them at work that I do not want to be prayed for, that I do not wish to convert and that I do not wish to receive biblical text messages. I get preached at, they hint at me converting and I get sent to church with clients at every possible opportunity. There has been nothing said about my beliefs but they are known courtesy of the gossip mill in my company. They knew what was coming to work with them a good 6 months before I arrived. If they were to openly admit they know though, that would be religious discrimination wouldn't it?

Having said that, I've had more tolerance from Hindus, Buddhists and Muslims so maybe they'd be worth a bash. But then again, there's not the same history as between Pagans/Heathens/Witches and Christians.

Ian,

Check your email and stop bringing this up publicly. It's not hard.

Elswyth,

Don't give up hope . Intolerance lies everywhere - but there are some decent (in an accepting-other-religions sense, as opposed to value sense) christians out there. Plenty of bible verses to throw at the ones who aren't "decent", also

xF,

...Nick

There is no hope when dealing with people who might as well be brainwashed NickT

In some cases...

I choose to believe that the majority of people are, at heart, "decent" (if you like) - and act in a particular way because they believe it is the way that is right for them to follow.

Such people can generally be reasoned with.

Then you get... yeah. I've met that sort as well - online and in Real Life™. Including one Christian who had the temerity to lecture me about being a pagan while snuggling up to her "bit on the side"!

It's a funny old world....

xF,

...Nick (love that icon!)

I have replied to it.

Look folks, Arrdhu has been attacked in forums I used to be on, and has had negative press. We all know of that if we have been around a while. I also know from a couple of responses I had from emails to an Arrdhu elder that they can be arrogant, or seem it.

I said once before in the first 'red thread' thread that Very posted, that they have the right to ignore us all, unless we take their course when it is a contract, a magickal contract what is more. They do not have to be fluffy or nice or even friendly. We ask of them, not them of us!

Now we have an opportunity never before seen, to ask questions about the old ways from a Magister of their Path. Let us not spoil that or they will go back to being covert.

I can be antagonistic and rude, even personal at times in my rare moments of passion as some of you know, but I also seek knowledge about what I know I am. I spent many decades dealing with psychic stress and my own ignorance and that of the world. I found little help during those days apart from within, and I found less help on forums when they first started, being ridiculed and insulted because I said I know I am witch. I was told by some I couldn't be witch because I wasn't female, that my views on deity as us, on 'knowing' that witch was a line but not necessarily blood, told that my views were absolute crap. And so-on and so-on. This age of Internet gives us opportunities. Let us take this one and see where it goes. I am toning down my own approach to Ian from respect and a bit of gratitude to see him here as well.

The interfaith question was originally raised in Ian's intro post thread so he should be able to respond as he sees fit. But that is immaterial really, threads often split and get moved around. I watch and wait with interest.
jape

But can we just get back to talking about the pros and cons of interfaith please?

Mmm, I had just typed out a reply to Jape, but decided to pm instead as it's off topic really.

Interfaith - I agree with educational aspect, I agree with learning to respect individual faiths... I just don't see how any religion which teaches it is the one true way can truly engage in interfaith - I don't think that necessarily lends to intolerance at all; but rather an acceptance of differing views and beliefs.

I agree with the educational aspect too Very. We should all learn about each other - and the correct versions too - not the propaganda. But unfortunately that's all the use I can see for interfaith because as you said...they teach that they are the one true way. You can't have interfaith with people that think like that because always at the bottom of everything they believe you're following some evil path that has no place in this world and that it's their job somehow to convert you.

Please can we stick to the subject of interfaith and any Arddhu questions be placed in a thread of their own or taken off site

I would like to see the subject of interfaith continue to be debated as I am a supporter of it.

I would not be a happy Fool if it was decided that this thread had gone too far off beam and needed to be closed.

Kev

Also a little puzzled about the reference to 'new age paths'. While some people would fit all modern Pagan traditions - Arddhu included - into the New Age framework, it makes more sense to view them as a distinct and somewhat older movement. Obviously there are some overlaps, but then the New Age stuff automatically tries to overlap with everything - it's a kind of spiritual universal solvent .

BB,

John Macintyre

[/quote]

It would make sense to class the new age as such if indeed it was an older movement - however much of what is practiced today is modern - By that I mean invented and reinvented since Gardnerian times. I dont see how you can class Arddhu in the same category - - why would we condemn new Age Interfaith if we're new age ourselves!!...mmmm I sense a flaw in your argument here!!

I agree with the earlier statement - Arddhu is not pagan or modern - if we were I think you would find not too many people would have a problem with us being around - and many students coming to us from a heavy Wiccan base struggle with the course - why? because the real concepts of witchcraft are very far removed from what you would find in the shops or at your local pagan Moot.

As for the rest of your question - I will answer as politely as possible as I do not wish to flame anyone's belief system as said before - - I did not say you would find Wicca in the Bible but that many of the concepts found within Wicca and other new age pathways are founded on Christian concepts and then reinvented to suit.....even the very basic stuff found in wicca has been developed and in some cases feminised from a Christian base - for example The Green Man, Three fold law of return, Three Fold Goddess, Wiccan Rede etc etc etc.

Much of this is taught within the Arddhu course so as much as I would like to get into a full blown debate about this - I wont - Polarbeer I hope I have answered your original question -

SS

Cos.. I'm interested, how does that interfaith moot you are involved with work?

Same here Cos.

I think I'd find it too annoying being told constantly that I'm being spiritually deceived

its Pagan & Christian Moot, one of Cern's (many) projects.

Although still titled P&CM we've recently opened it up to other faiths though the take up is a little slow there.

I won't pretend that there aren't disagreements at times but they are few and respect for each faith has been maintained.

Kev

LOL sorry Cos, this may become a 101 question time for you now!

I assume you have xtains that attend the moot, what branch of xtainity are they from and well what do you talk about? I suppose the trick is not to appear to be trying to promote paganism..a nd at the same ensuring the other faiths that attend are purely trying to convert...... or am I being too cynical?

I reckon that we all *really* should get along.

There's no need for religions to hate each other, isn't one of the ideas thats in all religions being 'world harmony and peace'?

I have friends who are from all sorts of religions ranging from Pagan to Muslim, to Satanism and Christianity. We all get on like on relatively big happy family Although i will admit that some of the debates we get up to during our free times do tend to get a little heated.

its a rule - no preaching or poaching.

Things can be said in the Christian section that are very Christian, just as Pagan things hold sway in the Pagan section but both are open to all members and likewise with other faiths.

Many of the Christians seem to be Evangelist or Fundemental, but to be honest I still have trouble telling them apart (they probably still have the same problem with Wiccans and witches)

What do we talk about, well I've been working through books of the Bible with one of the US Christians, mostly double handed but other members have made contributions. We started with Mark and it went on for 405 posts over 41 pages. We took a chapter at a time and I commented on my interpretation, often comparing to the Pagan side of things, while Sir Longpost (you'll see why he picked that nick ) also tried to relate some areas to what he had heard of re paganism. It was a friendly and interesting dialogue. It even survived being transfered across from a broken forum. We've now moved on to Acts and that has lead to a topic exploring the way we experience our gods and other such entities.

We discus topics in the news and specific faith related stories. Festivals and personal experience. To be honest it would be easier to say 'just go and have a look' but I hope that the above has wetted your appetite a little anyway

Oh and there are a couple of 'how to talk to' guides in the rules which I think are rather good

Kev

Thanks Cos that is really interesting. :-) I have taken a quick squiffy at the site, but I'll look more tonight once home.

So I guess the pertinent question really, is what does "interfaith" mean exactly.

My interpretation is about various religions working side by side with respect for individual beliefs...... but is that really what we mean when we talk of interfaith?

Don't mention it, you might even recognise some of the posters




Well my interpretation means that plus working to share and learn from each other.

Mind you I don't expect Churches to host Samhain rites or Druids to give Holy Communion although the thought does raise a smile


K

Dear Severedsolo,

I found the interfaith statement by Arddhu interesting because the language and tone - and some of the underlying assumptions - are very similar to the Comhairle/SAFF pronouncements on the same subject from the early 90's. Brawling about it back then was great fun for those of us on both sides.....

THUMP- "Interfaith is a betrayal of True Paganism"
BASH - "Interfaith is an obvious means of working towards equality of respect for Paganism in what is increasingly both a multi-faith and largely secular society."
CHAIR OVER HEAD - "Interfaith means diluting and sanitising Paganism in a doomed effort to suck up to Christianity"
KNEE IN GROIN - "Interfaith involves talking to people in many other religions, not just Christians. It's about explaining *different* approaches to religion, not trying to homogenise us into some kind of one-size-fits-all minestrone. And we're not particularly insanitary thank you!"
ELBOW GOUGE - "It's all a fundamentalist plot to infiltrate our ranks and open us up to a new wave of witch-peresecutions."
SCOTCH KISS - "Interfaith is deeply threatening to religious fundamentalists of all stripes, and by no means just Christian ones. Talking is better than throwing bricks. Anti-Pagan bigotry is a problem, so let's go after it at source. Folk who are confident in their beliefs have no need to feel threatened by talking to other folk who hold different beliefs."

.....but you'll no doubt remember.

"why would we condemn new Age Interfaith if we're new age ourselves!!...mmmm I sense a flaw in your argument here!!"

It used to be called "Welsh Granny Syndrome" but it's a bit of a digression and Pomona & Cos have got their big mod sticks out so we'd better stick to the subject .

"As for the rest of your question - I will answer as politely as possible as I do not wish to flame anyone's belief system as said before - - I did not say you would find Wicca in the Bible but that many of the concepts found within Wicca and other new age pathways are founded on Christian concepts and then reinvented to suit.....even the very basic stuff found in wicca has been developed and in some cases feminised from a Christian base - for example The Green Man, Three fold law of return, Three Fold Goddess, Wiccan Rede etc etc etc."

Politeness is always a good idea. As you say you're not Pagan - and I am - we can get down to a wee bit of interfaith dialogue right here and now. It looks as if someone may have been pulling your leg about Wicca - you have to watch those folk in shops and local Pagan moots as there's no saying what they'll come out with once there's been drink taken .

The Green Man is not a Wiccan concept - foliate heads of various kinds are a form of medieval church decoration. There's a lot of controversy about exactly what they were originally for and like many symbols they get reinterpreted over the years. Nowadays it's pretty much become a Pagan symbol, and indeed why not.

The Three Fold Law does not come from a Christian base, it's simply a reminder that what goes around, comes around - usually when you don't want it to! A well-meaning though perhaps over-idealised interpretation of cause and effect.

The Three Fold Goddess does not come from a Christian base. Christianity traditionally regards the very idea of any kind of Goddesses with horror. If you want to know where the modern (Universal) Three Fold Goddess concept comes from you might take a look at Robert Graves.

The Wiccan Rede does not reflect a Christian understanding of morality, though you may have read rather convoluted attempts to prove it does on the grounds St Augustine may once have said something that sounded similar - let's hope he never called for wine in a bar or a large part of Pagan socialising will no doubt be called into question . The Rede is a basically humanist, situational ethic - and situational ethics are, as I'm sure you realise, very difficult to reconcile with an ethical approach based on obedience to commandments. An approach chillingly summarised by Lactantius as "Virtue is to worship God!".

I won't get into 'feminised' approaches to Christianity as once you start going there, pretty much the whole history of Western thought get's drawn into the argument.

This isn't formal inter faith dialogue of course. Just a friendly conversation between two people from different paths who happened to bump into each other on this web forum, and in the course of it some misconceptions about Wicca got cleared up. Now if that doesn't make interfaith a good thing then I don't know what does .

Peace,

John Macintyre

For me, intellectually speaking, I can’t see how Christian/Pagan interfaith can ever be fully satisfactory. The very nature of Christian doctrine is so consciously and actively opposed to my polytheistic beliefs that I cannot honestly see how interfaith from that direction (monotheistic to polytheistic beliefs) can work.

Although, the point was raised about how far do you take “interfaith”. If it’s just communicating to another your beliefs then that is achievable. If it’s persuading them that your beliefs are as valid as theirs and attempting to get them to see where you’re coming from, then I think there will always be, where ardent Christians are concerned, insurmountable obstacles.

Although the OT (Old Testament) does state both that “Thou shalt have no other Gods before me” and mention the God Baal in the story of Exodus (and other gods which I can’t remember off the top of my head) – suggesting that at least in the Old Testament, there is the acknowledgement of other gods but the belief that Jehovah is, for want of a better expression “the main man”. Which is why I think that Judaic/Pagan interfaith could work quite well. However, you get to the New Testament and it all narrows down a fair bit with the assertion that Jesus is “the way, the truth and the light” etc. If memory serves, Paul does mention another god, but I think he makes the point that the other god is false and effectively does not exist. That, combined with the imposition upon “true believers” to spread the word and convert to the “one true faith” does make it difficult to comprehend, objectively speaking, how a fundamental Christian can ever come to an acceptance of pagan and polytheistic beliefs.

Unless of course the Christian doctrine openly and happily accepted the existence of other pantheons of which their god was one.

Now, if someone's pagan beliefs lead them to the understanding that there is one divinity, known by many names and reached by many understandings, then yes, I can see how those and the Christian beliefs can meld to a degree.

So that’s intellectually.

On a personal one-to-one basis, I think interfaith between Pagan and Christian is perhaps more attainable. Rather than being a faceless enemy to be conequered, there’s maybe a better chance of the Christian getting to know the Pagan as a person and seeing that they’re not the pointy-tailed, cloven-hoofed, pitchfork-wielding enemy. Or at least, not during the week.

Dear Elswyth,

"Well I no longer really see the point. Through working with born agains, I've found that there is no way on this planet that they'll ever actually accept any other faith and instead of leaving us to get on with our own - they'll do everything they can to try and convert us."

That's fair enough, but interfaith - almost by definition - does not involve that kind of believer. They would find the formal acknowledgement of others right to different beliefs too threatening to their own. That doesn't mean some monotheists involved in interfaith don't regard other religions as wrong, but by taking part in the process they are recognising that they are sharing this society with other faiths and that ways to promote peaceful co-existance are important.

Again, pretty much by definition, people active in interfaith can usually recognise at a purely human level that while they may not agree with another persons' religion, that religion is as important to the other person as their beliefs are to them. Which creates a degree of empathy. Many people in the monotheistic faiths are, in practice, also quite happy to operate on a live and let live basis. Like others on this forum, I've dealt with - for example, Christian Hospital Chaplains who were very sincere in their own faith, but also concerned to make sure that patients in their hospital received appropriate spiritual care whether that was Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, or - increasingly these days - Pagan.

"Having said that, I've had more tolerance from Hindus, Buddhists and Muslims so maybe they'd be worth a bash. But then again, there's not the same history as between Pagans/Heathens/Witches and Christians."

That's probably true. I've never forgotten a Sikh telling me that 'Religion is the road, but individual religions are like different vehicles on that road. Different vehicles suit different people. Why should anyone have a problem with this?"

BB,

John Macintyre

just like to add that this: is not how interfaith works

I'm very pragmatic about interfaith stuff. Insofar as official bodies use interfaith groups as the source of guidance for policies on education, health care, and other things that us Pagans are very much concerned about, then I'd say that our voice ought to be heard equally loudly as the others.

For the rest of it, I'm not sure whether it isn't just "the people who do interfaith" "doing interfaith" because they find it rewarding. Not harmful of itself, but not beneficial of itself either.

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

even if someone were to engage in interfaith for no reason other than personal satisfaction then they have to be achieving results to feel satisfied and if that's the case surely this in itself must lend to a beneficial end?

k

Dear Ffred,

I didn't know you were here. Good to see you .

"I'm very pragmatic about interfaith stuff. Insofar as official bodies use interfaith groups as the source of guidance for policies on education, health care, and other things that us Pagans are very much concerned about, then I'd say that our voice ought to be heard equally loudly as the others."

Definitely! That's a large part of the civic inter faith process.

"For the rest of it, I'm not sure whether it isn't just "the people who do interfaith" "doing interfaith" because they find it rewarding. Not harmful of itself, but not beneficial of itself either."

I see what you mean, but would still suggest there's some benefit to it. My experience of the process is that it's as much about seeing a little, a very little, of how other faith communities see the world, and through that getting to see them as people rather than as animated doctrines. People with children they worry about, parents and other relatives they care for, jobs they're trying to get done. People who may well live in a different world religiously but who in concrete terms are standing on the same ground we are. Even if the only effect it has is, when some bigot starts shoutings - "All those [insert relligion of choice] out there - they hate us, they are trying to destroy everything we believe in, they are the enemy!", maybe one or two folk will quietly say, well perhaps some are like that but some others we've actually met and spoken with are not like that at all.

In social terms, religion is what people make it. I'd be the last person to suggest interfaith's a panacea but if it can help even parts of different faith communities peacefully get along with our own ways of doing things as neighbours in the same society, that's a good thing.

BB,

John Macintyre

Kev earning his P&C Moot admin badge again I see.

Interfaith- should be about education, learning about other peoples beliefs and practises. Acceptance- that is about accepting that other people might believe differently to you and might practise their beliefs in a different way to you.

Interfaith is not about converting one or another to your way of thinking, believing or wotnot. Accepting is not about agreeing with other beliefs or even feeling that those beliefs are ok. I'll clarify that last bit before someone has an apopexsy. People might feel that the beliefs held by others are in some way or other 'wrong', but still be able to accept that others have the right to believe something they feel is wrong. Personally I believe pretty much everyone is wrong in some way about what they believe, including myself. Identifying that 'wrongness' and being able to objectively quantify it is another matter. Interfaith should be able to recognise that objective quantification is rather difficult for ALL beliefs.... that belief simply doesn't conform to what we currently use as our benchmark testers for objectivity, evidencing and the like.

So, interfaith with Evangelicals, Fundamentalists and the like..... can it be done? Well if they are prepared to enter into discussion with a clear understanding of the above, then yes.

Where do the problems lie in interfaith? The biggest problem I've come across is actually people not knowing their own faith very well and not being all that confident in what they believe. Humans have this habit of blustering and getting very stroppy when pushed into a corner with something they are not that certain of but should be. My methods of addressing this kind of situation vary (depending on how much the 'offender' has ticked me off mainly). I either make a little space for them to manoeuvre, usually by offering them something from their own faith to help them out, or I slam them with something from their own faith that they darned well should know, thereby running them out of town so to speak. The latter is not necessarily good interfaith. But I'm human and should be allowed to get a bit ticked off every once in a while.

I've used the latter method to great effect outside the PF conference a few years ago, and in quite a few other situations. I've used the former countless times. It is interesting how respectful people become when you've thrown them a lifeline.

Education leads to empowerment. You become empowered to be able to discuss other peoples faith with them and extend that to how their faith affects everyday life. So often people just make the right kind of noises about their faith being an intrinsic part of their everyday life. I know I've done that in the past, and probably will do in some form or another in the future. Interfaith is all about education. When Tony Blair outlined his gubbins for why the Labour party should be elected, he could have been delivering a rallying call for what interfaith is about 'Education, Education,Education'.

As to comments about Arddhu and their stance on interfaith.... well interfaith isn't compulsory. If they want to set themselves up in opposition to the statistically dominant faith in this country then that's their business. Me, I think I prefer to enter into dialogue with them in the hope that education will lead to us being better understood and perhaps respected.

Oh, and did I mention that interfaith should be about education?

(and there was me contemplating leaving this thread alone)

BB

Mike

Hi John

The question of how to get rid of people is not aimed at banishing unpopular groups - but makes the comparison between the elected and unelected. We have the choice to elect our local and national politicians and come the next polling day we can remove them from office if they don't deliver - but the ordinary man or woman in the street does not have the opportunity to choose who goes on these committees, yet the individuals on them can have input into legislation that will affect or limit peoples' life choices - as in Faith Schools (What if the Faith School is the only one in your area - as can often be the case in rural areas) It's my job to print the minutes of Interfaith committees for our Local Authority, there are indeed representitives of Islam, Budhisim and Hinduism but it is an unequal partnership because they are always outnumbered by the Christian representitives, and however liberal some individuals may be, they show little or no inclination to give up their privilege of numbers. Technically, Humanists (they may not have a faith but other peoples faiths affects them) are not even allowed on the committees - in practice they can be invited at the discretion of other committee members - but this does not lessen the wrongness of the current system.

and no offence has been taken here at all - lol - its good to have a solid debate....I think we will definitely have to agree to diagree on this one!!

Dear John

Thank you for that reply and yes I do appreciate that not all Christians are like Born Agains but they have put me off engaging in any faith based dialogue with Christians full stop. I know that's not really very 'big' of me and I've had good Christian friends before now but quite frankly I'd rather keep our respective faiths out of it.

That Sikh you mentioned is a wise man