We do not follow old Estonian religions or any other religions. We do not study system of witchcraft from religions or other schools of witchcraft.
Because old teachings are aged to manage with them today or even grafted through of misleading and enslaving information, then the knowledge about existence had to be brought by ourselves, without relying on any other known teaching.
We bring the knowledge about witchcraft through ourselves from our higher mental bodies. We bring the knowledge and we test does it works in nature where we live. We experience, we practice, we use it in our personal life and then we use it combined with other already tested and attained skills (The 4-system).

This could be misleading, but You can call it Tokroda, because I haven’t think up any better name to name it and our leader, witch Tokroda, calls it just Estonian Paganism. Why this could be misleading is the point that we do not teach personality cult. We teach teamwork and explain why people are divine. With using planet’s systems of nature You can change the world. Existence is made so that one man alone can not change the world. The world works so for the evolution and safety. If a man and a woman (what belongs to the 2-system of nature) want to create something, for example, to give a birth for a child, they have to do it together. That’s the way the world works and so it is with other things in the world too. To create a witchcraft system you need many witches with different parameters because perfect system can be created by combining many different parts what create one perfect system.

For example, to shift the energy columns we needed to use the 20-system of nature. We gathered 20 witches and brought the energy columns into Estonia. These energy columns were shifted away from Estonia in history.

The map of the Estonian energy columns

We pray for nobody. We study from higher, from existence and teach lower ones. This existence, these trees and bushes, this air what we breath and this soil what grows food for us, they need no-one’s prayers, no-one’s slavery. Prayers and praising and slavery are needed by those who doesn’t have the power itself. Religions have the power only then when humankind itself gives them their power away.
We want to make humankind wise, so it would be too hard to enslave humankind.

hmmm well I'd argue that one man may change the world (within mundane as well as magic - Martin Luther King for example) and even if that change is nowt but a shift in attitude it is still a change, however small.

But the thought of so many working together is interesting, though I don't quite understand the concept of the energy columns. You say thay drifted away for Estonia in the past but have now been brought back. Does this mean that there are similar energy columns linked to (but possibly drifted from) other lands or is it a purely Estonian concept?

Does this indicate a specific link between the magic, the people and the Land itself?

I'd better stop with the questions for now

Over to you

K

Really interesting post Pakkaram and I would be interested any anything else you wish to share about your tradition

One thing that interests me is that you seem to equate the worship of Gods with slavery in your tradition - which is fair enough but it makes me wonder how you perceive deity. How is deity perceived in Estonian Paganism?

no questions mate
just like to say thanks for sharing

But Martin Luther King was not alone. He had support from numbers of black people. Unfortunately, I don’t know who were in Martin Luther King's company. I would take some other people for example, who changed the world more than Martin Luther King. They were the king Arthur and Jesus and Napoleon and Hitler who all used 12 people in their main theme as I have heard. Their leader is the 13th. The king Arthur had 12 knights of the Round Table. Jesus didn't achieve this alone too. He had 12 apostels. I have been told that their personalities matched with the 12 different sides of the 12-system (each part has to be different, one from 12).

I do not know if they used 12 system in their team. Ones who know more about history and are interested about it can analyze it on 12-system, if I will write about it. Well, this was a bit other story, but the point is that they had teams and not only teams - they had thousands of people, but only one person was lifted up in front of people.

Well Arthur is a person of some historical dispute and if he did exist the round table and its knights (numbered upto 150 depending on which tales) may not have.

Jesus was (allegedly) the spirit of YHWH incarnate and his apostles were just the tool to propogate his cult after death (and remember that Judas wasn't playing on side)

As for Hitler who were his 12? I know of 4 or 5 but can't place 12



The point still stands though. One man can change the world. Yes they will have support but if they were not there the change would not happen.

Please could you explain where this '12 system' comes from, your post talks of 20 columns and 20 wtches.... and now its concerning 12's

K

Yes, talking about 10th level energy pillars, by my information Earth is divided into 96 territories and each territory has got one set of 10th level energy pillars. There are other type of energy pillars too.


Yes. For example, an energy pillar is energy flow, just like a person is. They must be connected. Just like a person must be connected with his/her physical body to evolve. Magic is part of existance and an elementary instrument for existence and for tolerable evolution. A person is this what is called magic. People realize magic with their own parts and force (well, other ways are possible too). A person can be divine.

It doesn't stand still. I have not stated it. :] I said one man alone. The leader of the group is the one who makes more work than others and needs to be more developed and i agree with what You stated, without him the change would not happen.


There are many systems in nature what you can put together from people too. I just brought another system for example. The 12-system. This system is the system of emotions. If someone puts together 12-system from 12 men, then he/she/it can manipulate with people through emotions.
I still think that Jesus used 12-system. Well, if Judas left and maybe it broke this system, then it's nice to hear that all their plans didn't work so well, if they planned it of course. Why I think that they planned it, is the fact that Christians and many other religions, they manipulate and enslave people through their emotions. You go to church, you get good feeling, but you lose your mind. Their bible is primitive, their philosophy is nonsense - I see nothing exept emotions with what they can manipulate.

A deity is a being who evolves from giving. Being incarnated, he/she is halfly in a physical human body, halfly out from a physical human body, exists as a field. They need to incarnate because through the physical level we change things and evolve, this evolution here is the real work what evolves. But, like we have got humans who doesn’t want to work, who are a bit degenerated, here are some this kind of gods too. They want to create their religion and paradise and live there forever without doing the hard work, without incarnating. How it is possible and why they want to do it: Because normally planet’s nature doesn’t support this nonsense and doesn’t give it’s support. Because of this these gods need people’s support/energy. That’s why they need prayers and slavery and believing. A god should feed people not feed from people. These people pray for corpses, corpses of degenerated gods. If people would take away their support, these gods would collapse and it would make them harmless, but people fear or desire some offering what these gods offer for them and so they pray and slave. This kind of gods are very useful tools for invaders who want to enslave mankind.

I have written about different type of beings in a physical human body here: http://www.mentalworld.eu/viewtopic.php?t=6

I've looked at the website and your explanations here and find all this referring to 'systems' more confusing than resolving.

Re Jesus - he recruited 12 apostles, Judas was intended to betray him. Upon his betrayal Judas commited suicide (he hung himself or threw himself to his death or both depending on who you read ). The other result of the betrayal was Christs death and resurection. So really Judas was being sorely used (or rather his dodgy nature was). However I don't see how the 12 (they did replace him) apostles fit different emotions.

Moving on however I would not call the Bible primitive. Firstly because it is a recognisable chronicle of true historical events (yes we may not believe in some but a lot recorded there in did happen) and secondly because it aims to provide a working guide for future Christians. As always some will miss the point, but if you put work into it (as you should all faiths) then it can give valid and useful guidance today. Furthermore I fail to see how the Christian message can be dismissed as 'nonsense' despite your obvious dislike or misunderdstanding of it, the Christian philosophy has proved itself over 2000 years (give or take a decade or two ) and when applied correctly is as relevant and active today as any other religious or spiritual path.

However I know that some of our esteemed members will be gathering rocks to throw at me for my discource on Christianity here, so instead I'll ask how you relate Tokroda to other pagan and Neopagan paths?

Personally from your description I, personally, would not refer to Tokroda as a Paganism but rather a system of Magic or a Ceremonial Fraternity, but then I could well be missing the point

K

probably of little relevance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_(number)

Ah now you see, you perceive Gods very differently to how I do. Thank you for the explanation

Actually we had a bit of a debate about the nature of Gods recently in this thread here
Why do we look abroad?

It originally started out a discussion about why modern Pagans in this country look to the spiritual traditions of other countries but then moved onto a discussion about just what constitutes a God.

If I talked about Bible, I concentrated on the religion in Bible. I think we had a little misunderstanding here.
Just in case I say my opinion, that it could be a good book of history, but a religion is religion and it should not be justified with some history what it's book contains. We have to look at this religion itself. It would be not a nice result when nowadays history and knowledge would be collected, put into some book and added some religion to this book, and people would praise this religion in the future because of this that this history and other nonreligious things in the book are really true and we can study from this history. Why I am talking about it is the fact that when something about history or other nonreligious things what are mentioned in the bible, are discovered to be true, many people do take this as a proof for this religion to be true.

It could aim to provide a working guide for future Christians, but it doesn’t take primitive out from it.
I know philosophy well and my opinion is still this that Christian philosophy is not philosophy. There has been some philosophers who were Christians and who's talk is not only nonsense, but this is another story.

Again I expressed myself indistinctly. My apologies. With a word religion i meant religion's teatching.

Fascinating thread. Thank you for sharing your beliefs.

About these systems of nature:
We all know that there exist the laws of physics, what form systems. But, there are more laws of nature than these laws of nature. I am talking about the laws of nature what work in this field that people know as the field of witchcraft or spirituality or the astral plane or the mental world.
The laws what are called laws of physics create, form and control majority of our rough material surroundings. These laws about which I am writing create, form and control higher realities and some amount of our rough material surroundings, too and form and control a person. A person’s mental side and supernatural side. You can deal with witchcraft through using Your own parts what exist on higher realities or when using others’ support or other’s enslaved energy. But, if You know these laws of the nature and operate by these, then You can use the support of these laws of the nature. This power is times and times stronger than anyone’s power, these are times and times stronger than the power of the whole humankind. That’s the reason why some true pagans/witches have managed to survive and to be free, despite of the fact that there are so many enslaving religions what gather and use enslaved people’s power to enslave others.

For example, one system of nature is the 20-system. The system of RAKTOBLEER. You can read about the laws of the RAKTOBLEEM under “Magick and Ritual” forum in this board here.
"Magick and Ritual"

Estonian surnames all contain some natural element like mountain or lake or tree. A theory is that it is to remind them to stay grounded and be peaceful, and they are incredibly peaceful. It has meant, unfortunately, that they have been invaded and occupied nearly always.
I learned this on a tour of Tallinn last week and I am repeating what the guide told me. If anyone knows otherwise please correct me.