Whitestone, Hagstone, Arrdhu, Ravening, Moonstone.
It seems that these are all the protagonists in the dance of who holds the true keys of knowledge in traditional british craft. From analysing posts here and information elsewhere I gather the opinion that Whitestone was first, primogenitor in the offering of thirteen moon courses offered as an opening to study of the old ways and then to inner knowledge if accepted.
I understand that there will be disagreement, misunderstanding and dissent in any group, not necessarily about 'power' but certainly in interpretation and thus that offshoots might naturally occur. I also see that those who are not 'initiated' in one or the other group but then start their own using the same or similar material would stand accused of being foresworn of plagiarism and even theft.
In the shadows of the publically available material we have seeming threats of 'dealing with it' or similar statements. We also have some contradictory statements of continued acknowledgement and respect for progenitors, refutation of accusations and the continued proffering of the Courses with what is at least superficially, the same material.
I completed the Ravening Course. I was not rejected, in fact I was told that if I were in the UK, I would be welcomed to inner work. I consider the Land to be the whole earth however and I have had what I will call vision of my own to continue seeking the company of those who believe as I do. Thus I have attempted to follow up and find the body or group that I can work with.
I was accepted for Arrdhu recently and now have been rejected before commencing because I told them I was intending to ask further about the true order of events around the Ravening, Whitestone issues raised by others here and elsewhere. They say it is a betrayal of trust on my part to do this and shows my inability to proceed as my intuition is faulty.
I have stated that I will not release the confidential information I was given by some parties and as I measure my own honour as witch I shall not do so. Some of this I already held from other sources and do not feel obliged to hold confidential, however neither do I wish to start a public flaming match.
Accordingly I ask here that any that have real knowledge and connections that go back to the beginning of this, probably Whitestone contact me privately. I am interested in hearing from Tony Newman also.
I have not heard back from those with a website saying they are Whitestone, either the original or the Maidstone group. I have not sent my email to Ravening yet as other events overtook my careful writing of it, but I shall.
It seems that Whitestone was first, then Hagstone, that Hagstone was distrusted by Whitestone despite statements of continued loyalty, that Arrdhu also came from Whitestone and then Ravening from Arrdhu. Moonstone, I am not sure. And also perhaps Whitestone is not what it once was and has split.
Please listen and note, I do not want to see a public flame war and a spouting of heated opinion raking over and re-igniting old issues and creating more negative energy. To some extent these debates are contained while 'in house' but until they get to truth they can do damage. Certainly to the trust and understanding of those taking the courses or holding alliegance. If any want to do that then they can PM me with the information, however couched! I am sure I will get threats as well but I will stand fast. This is not something just from my 'ego' and from recent threads, it is part of my own work over several years.
jape

To be honest Jape, I think you had a lucky escape with that particular application. You're much better off on your own than with a group like that. You'll learn much more if you're free to ask the questions you want and need to ask than if you're afraid to ask for fear of being dropped from the course.

Whitestone and Hagstone, are they Robert Cochrane, 1734 stuff?

Good luck with your search in the future.

Thanks Elswyth. I don't think it is Cochrane stuff, that is stronger in the States than here I think. I say here as UK although I am in Aus. at present, lol. But I really don't know.

I am fed up and now getting angry with those who purport to hold such inner knowledge stating the usual, 'you are at fault because you don't trust us', or 'you are at fault because you don't know already'! I have seen this too many times.

Trust and respect are a two-way relationship and no true 'Magister' or 'gatekeeper of the portal' etc. etc. would expect the slavering and eyes shut, bow-down respect from any real witch. That smacks of paranoia and control, not protection of inner secrets or wise understanding. Power tripping, not the honest safeguarding and careful vetting of students.

If any of these groups do hold the keys then they are not respecting or trusting the magick, the wyrd, the soul and spirit of the craft.

There are quite a few honest witches, (perhaps uninformed, I conceed that, sort of!) such as myself and some others I know from here, that are capable of accepting leadership of others despite our strong individuality, scepticism, and experience. We are willing to explore and learn and add to our understanding. I am very independant but I recognise the value of community and continuity. That is, especially if the purpose were to truly combine the energy of the few to protect and awake the liminal dreaming of the Land and slowly bring back to balance the consciousness of humankind. I have my own personal beliefs about this, about connection to ancestry and imagination, cycles of life, deity and so on, about how to work it and what it is all about! I also have the ability to forget my own peculiarities of personal belief and offer my will in communion for such as purpose.

I am not an idealist as much as a survivor and I see and feel that to survive as humans with any remnants of the soul of this world, a communion of spirit is required. All I see so far is immature power trips, and unfortunately, some of the best of us caught up in that.

You know, some have power and they have the power to harm you if they are perverse. But those that threaten for no reason are empty jars, rattling in the passing winds of their own fears. I shall keep looking, I have had a vision of a conclave of some kind, a true working in community. I don't want it be just a dream, else this life is indeed the nightmare.

jape

Looks as though you might have to start your own cult, Jape. Sorry to be cynical, but I don't think groups form in the absence of a charismatic leader.

Yuk, me as leader? I ain't charismatic, I'm worse than the others, grumpy, bossy, manipulative and I want adoration about three times a week (but you can take it in turns), sainthood while I'm alive and to be instant deity after I'm gone from here. No burnt offerings though, I like it raw.
Well i'm not looking for a group to join, as much as some witches who have hearts as well as minds, don't bow to wankers and are willing to die for me, sorry, slip of the keyboard, die for what is right.
I wonder if there are anythings we actually all agree on, I might start a thread about that when I have had my noodles.
Or I might start a quest for the real keys, any ideas where to start? Dammit, where is Gandalf when we need him? Off fighting balrogs and getting his hair bleached probably. And as for Arthur, still bloody snoozing.
jape

Do you not think that maybe you're complicating things a bit too much Jape?

Depends really, elswyth, I do overthink at times when I am sad, brain the size of a planet and all that, spend too much time alone watching nature out here on the edge of the bush maybe. Um, anything in particular you see? I do listen to others and others see things I miss.

I have been working on this for a while; since I found the dreaming of Australia and my own inner landscape and that of others displaced here are not incompatable, I came to various conclusions. One was that the lack of ancestral connection (magickally) coupled with the lack of connection between magickal workers, leads directly to the loss of awareness of connection between others less aware. Words don't express that well. I think it is part of our job and a balance to the gift we are given to keep alive the 'dreaming' but not to fossilise it or hold it static in unecessary tradition. It takes the old wisdom plus aware consciousness of the modern world to keep it dynamic. I also have a couple of visions to follow up that lean in this direction as I try and make sense of them without going insane or too far into unreality (one told me I am half an angel, lol, and no, it wasn't mine!).


This is a work in progress and all perspectives are welcome.
jape

I think the Maidstone group was Whitecroft - not Whitestone. Whitecroft is a Gardnerian Line.

I know their HPS lived in maidstone for a while, but she dies a couple of years back.

Jon/Baph

No there is definitely a Whitestone "coven" in Maidstone, or was. I came across them when I first moved to the area. However, I've not heard anything for years about them.

I thought Tony was in sussex.

I know the "Lady" that whitestone decends from died a couple of years back too... but she was from a small village (not in kent).

There was only ever one whitestone coven, all the others are named traditionally as in named Hagstone, moonstone, gallstone etc....

Shame that ignotus and hagstone fell out.... there could have been some information from there, but now it will be very bitter.

Jon/Baph

Really don't know Jon, I was never involved with them. I was pretty new to paganism so the talk of horned gods and dishing of Wicca and other neopagan religions meant I gave them a wide birth, lol I had visions of demon worship, ritual sex orgies and that kind of thing - there again sounds quite interesting.....

Nah was a newbie and it all sounded a bit scary. So I stuck to reading my nice safe books lol and muddling along on my own.

I "nearly" did the Hagstone/Whitestone course. Was too skint at the time, though .

*stone and red thread aren't Cochranian, although no doubt they take some influence from that path (as most claimed traditional groups do, IME)... Cochrane/1734 is surprisingly big in the UK though, and Sabbatic craft (of various degrees of "originality") is on the up as well.

It does seem, though, that those three sets of groups have all (at the very least) cross-fertilised with each other at some point(s), and gven the uninitiated (e.g. me! ) can see some similarities between the three sets of paths - and I'll admit I've stolen some of the ideas for my own 'great work', as well .

My opinion is that there is no one (or even three) 'Traditional British Craft' - lots of people have been doing lots of different things, no matter how far back you go; I don't really see why that has to be a problem

xF,

...Nick

(no offence intended)

Whem i first read the arrdhu thread, i couldnt help thinking of the game show reeves and mortimer used to do. so was never ever going to take any of it seriously, and with the more i read the more ridicoulous arrdhu sounded.

I agree with you completely here Nick!!!



Now you see, I don't class this as overcomplicating things. To me that's the best way of learning what it's all about. Getting out there and pondering on your own. When I say getting too complicated - starting a quest for the real keys whatever they are. What about just looking for your own way and your own keys and just screwing the rest? It's all well and good going looking at BTW and trying to find this that and the other but as Nick said - lots of people have been doing lots of different things since way back when. What some British trad crafters have been doing down devon somewhere is probably vastly different to what some lass was doing 200 years ago a few hundred miles to the north!

Neither is less valid than the other.

It is in the nature of trad that each trad family is tied in to its own local area, and that local area and its incumbent qualities is reflected in the methods of each family.

Those interested in trad craft could do a lot worse than to study their local environment, local folk practises and local 'myths'. It would make for a good foundation.

BB

Mike

A curious question Jape: Is it just the original "Traditional British Craft" that you seek and how far back do you propose to go for its keys? "British" is a bit too generalized, considering the diversity of breeds and their subcultures that dominated the British Isles even before the Romans arrived.

For example, here in the Rhine Valley, there is a pagan path that has gone back to its roots, performing fertility rites in a place rather like the "Lascaux" caves, much as their distant ancestors (and that with special permission from the archeological authorities here). Of course, these rituals are in worship of the "Earth Mother", (as represented by those same figures found in the ancient temples of Malta)

Of course the groups you mentioned would not approve of your divided interests. In such groups the effectiveness of their magic, they believe, depends on the undivided focus of its participants. They are not looking for "new ways" rather, wish to be totally resolute with what has been laid down as "law". Thus they tend to regard any divisions thereof also as capable of drawing "outside" influences into the "equation" (regardless of accidentally or deliberate) which is why they insist on operating in absolute secrecy.

I am completely ingorant when it comes to these things I ahve to admit but am interested in seeing what people have to say about it and try to work out where they are coming from.

I have a basic probably quite novice question.

What exactly do you mean by "trace" and.. um.. what exactly are you tracing? If you are talking about witches.. what KIND of witches?

The reason I ask, is that I have never belonged to a group or coven, I was lucky in that my great grandmother was a witch, but that was luck of birth more than anything else.. I dont believe being a witch is in the blood as it were.

So these groups are what exactly? Covens that grew into being something else? The tradition here (as far as I am aware) is that witches were solitary, wise women that used magick as well as other methods for whoever needed their assistance. They MAY have taken on an apprentice to pass on their knowledge, but only if that someone showed some inkling to it.
Covens here.. were, when solitarys got together to work BIG magick or to celebrate something.

So.. (sorry for rambling and if this is totally of thread would a mod please move this to a new topic for me?) What ARE all these groups? What "traditions" are they attesting to? What exactly IS the history you are trying to find out?

Im sorry if any of that comes across as derisory.. it HONESTLY isnt meant to. Im just not sure how to phrase things here

I will reply to Xalle and others over the weekend, just checking emails as I am about to leave the house for the day
jape

I just reread my post and realised that I used the word groups and covens... and it may seem that I am only interested in what, or who these groups are. But I also noticed that Jape used the term craft.. and my post was as much directed to that as to the groups themselves.

What I mean is... Im not aware of the history of the craft coming from a group.. or that the history of it can be trraced that way... when I illustrated earlier about the passing on of the knowledge and the single wise woman I was as much talking of the "craft" as I was the history of the coven/s or their take on the craft.

I've read this three times now and Im still not sure if Im making myself clear.

None of it is clear Xalle, or we wouldn't look, except under 'how to be a witch', in the school library! There is a lot of information and a number of paths that use what is called magick, and that even includes wicca. I am specifically looking for stuff that relates to a number of visions, not just mine, and that have taken place over a couple of years. I had hoped that the more traditional british paths would hold part of it but it seems they won't accept me now, too many questions I guess.
A lot of these terms are general and indeed witch is used so, even by me at times. There is a particular type of 'witch' that I recognise, crossing more than one path. I have met them and usually recognise them. It is difficult to describe as the acceptance is intuitive even if they did not know what they were before we met. It is a kind of psychic link and knowledge that is not backed up by facts or words. It is a connection to deity also but not as worship.
As I go on, I find more and more bits of the puzzle fall into place, but again, not always in words and ideas. It is more like the puzzle is already put together and I know that but don't see it all yet. All I am looking for is clarity and my task, and often against my will it seems, as fate takes me and changes circumstances to fit me into them ( rather, against my consciious will). I am looking for the people that fit the puzzle and I also know I have to work at that, which I do, in various ways.
That must have made it really clear! Not!
I usually remember to answer questions and I try not to get too side-tracked. The history these particular groups attest to is one of direct line of practise, initiation, knowledge and purpose from the witch-mother herself. In some ways they are indeed correct, I feel that intuitively and have connected to that amazing spiral of linked consciousness through time and space, but these groups are too bound in protecting themselves and power rather than the magick and the channels they were put into place to protect. Much like the xtians, they hold or did hold keys but have lost the mystery and mastery.
I believe that beyond the local groups and their sacred places or even particular belief and systems, there was always a knowledge of each other and some unifying understanding. I see little of that in the pagan world.
jape

Actually I think that's very well put and I do know what you mean Jape.

I feel like that sometimes when I hear someone speaking in a different (European) language - that I can get the meaning through the nuances and expression, but the detail, the words and therefore the intricacies are just outwith my ken and sometimes I get a word that makes me know I SHOULD understand more of what they're telling me - but I'm finding it hard. Like straining to hear something just out of earshot.

I find it sad, to be honest, that asking questions would be considered reason to deny you access to knowledge - after all, surely the point of education is to encourage questions and thus learning?

Can I ask though, you're in Australia and you're looking to learn British Trad Craft - why British? Why not the craft of the land you're in?

Ohhh what a fantastic way of putting the sensation I have too Pomona, the one that actually led me to take the risk and get in touch with the Ravening.

I get exactly the same feeling too when reading sometimes, I sense the author is actually telling more than is plainly spoken.. yet I don't understand or can't quite make it out.. it's a sensation that drives me batty to be honest lol.

I do kinda hope there might be some ancient lore.. the cynic in me tho says it's just all romanticism and a desire to make witchcraft somehow more mysterious and I dunno thrilling than it actually is, if you get what I mean?

I do apologise if that doesn't make any sense, I've just woken up from the mother of all weird dreams which is still clouding my mind a bit lol.

Hi Pomona, good analogy that, of the foreign language.
I am not looking to learn anything anymore really, except in the sense that we see and experience new things all the time and that never ends. I don't think I have anything to learn, just to do and be.

That statement will probably trip me up!

I understand what Very says too, sometimes the intuition sends you in a direction, you already know they have something, but do they know it? Well, these Red thread groups think they do but don't understand it, nurture it or sing with it. Too long in the dark has wilted their antennae. There you go, that picture came then, of telepathic plants that sing magickal energy across the universe. Its weird being a witch at times.

I work well with this Land here, it responds to me at times as much as ever in the UK. part of what I am about is a further connection that I seek, to people, particular people of a communion that I know exist, I have met them in dreams and they call to me. We seek one another.
jape

Yeah see thats kinda where Im coming from. I could be entirely wong.. but a Witch mother is not something that I personally think ever existed... and Im not sure about any ancient lore appart from the stuff made up by groups to make themselves seem more "authentic".

I see the craft as something that some people have a gift for and some dont. I believe that everyone can learn to manipulate the energies around us but not everyone will be good at it. Like ... ooh like Ballet... we can all go to the classes and learn the moves, but we wont all go on to become Ms Pavlova's. In relation to the "mother witch" again using the same analogy.. some will go on to be divas, some more famous than others but it doesnt mean that they gave birth to the gift.
I think people claiming otherwise are trying to give themselves providance for whatever insecurities or power over others they feel they need to hold.

That is your opinion, after a few decades of practise you might change your mind. We aren't all insecure or manipulative, that is the basic stuff you deal with when you begin, if you don't, you don't get anywhere except bent!
jape

Come on Jape, you can't say that what Xalle said is a product of being less experienced, I mean do you know that Xalle is less experienced? And it certainly held true with the Arddhu lot!

Xalle said ".. but a Witch mother is not something that I personally think ever existed... and Im not sure about any ancient lore appart from the stuff made up by groups to make themselves seem more "authentic"."

I was defending the belief in 'witch mother' as it is mine as well as that of arrdhu and others. I have had it for a long time and it was formed against my original understanding.

I was not being personal in a derogatory sense. I believe that practise of the craft changes you as you use it, it also changes the way you perceive things including history and time, deity, reality. That is what I meant, Xalle, your experience over time may open you to such things. Many here are inspired by deity and some I know also have experience of personal intervention, guidance or awakening that cannot be discounted.

Personal experience that ties in with 'ancient lore' becomes validated and vice versa. It is subjective but when it forms part of a stated tradition it supports that tradition in part if not in whole. The 'witch mother' is an aspect of a few names of feminine deity and some see that as going back to the first recorded goddesses. The concept is an old one and well recorded but I suppose as usual it needs definition to suit the logically minded. I also objected to that belief and others being slanted as 'trying to give themselves providance for whatever insecurities or power over others they feel they need to hold'

I disagree with Arrdhu and Ravening on some things (as some-one not initiated in either group) but support their riight to claim and believe what they do.

I know what you are saying Jape but.. and mybe this is taking the thread in a slightly different direction.. I dont know if a mod wants me to take this to a different thread then let me know..

Let me see if I can word this in a way Im happy with.

I believe that all energies come from the same thing. That all energies that we work wth are there and always have been. If I need to work with positive life giving energies or negative energies, or chaotic energies, etc etc those are the ones that I tap into. Others may find the way that they can tap into that energy is by seeing it as a god, or a sybol that represents that "type" of energy. Working wth it that way to me gives it form.

I think people have a tendancy to put things into a perspective that they understand. Those of you who work with energies, Im assuming (correct me if I am wrong) work with the various dieties that best suit the path or style of energies that you can and do work with.

Now going back in time... energies were given the form of gods because like i said, people have a tendancy to put something they dont understand into a form that they do.

Now please dont think that Im saying that you are all eejits for working with gods. I dont think that at all.. I do think that energy can be given form and enough of it pulled strongly enough together will, I believe, take the form and personality of the God you choose to work with and in a sense, it is your belief and your power that creates the god.

Saying that there is a validation of ancient lore because it has been written down doesnt really hold water for me. People need to express what they do, what they work with and this form made it easier for most people to grasp. It doesnt make it any more real, if you see what I mean? Just because someone in the past, formed those energies into what they saw as the giver of the gift, the "witch mother", doesnt mean that she ACTUALLY existed.

Thing is Xalle, that might not be particularly respectful of those who believe they have a relationship with numerous deities (polytheism). Sure you might believe differently and even have experiences that suggest differently. But we're talking about something that is rooted in personal belief and personal experience.



That, on the other hand, does have some validity. Something being written down is no real validation except validation that it was written down by that person at that time.

BB

Mike

You are totally right and I have no wish to offend whatsoever. Im being as respectful as I can. This is a delecate topic and I was using my belief as the only way I know how to to illustrate my point about the "witch mother".

They all seem to tie into each other a little and Im not the best with words at times and Im doing my best to illustrate a point. That said, I think that its perfectly possible to have many gods, many energies and personalities of energies to work with. Now people may conversley argue that I DO work with gods I just dont know it, and that they lend me their energies to work with, to do what I do.. I dont know. I dont personally believe in a god or many gods, but I dont see that as a contradiction to allowing that other people do.

Thats allright Xalle, I started this thread and am very happy with the discussion going this way.

I don't care about 'actuality' much any more, the subjective visionary or magickal experience is as real to me as any other that comes in to my view, from my knocking against a tree because I wasn't looking, to getting a letter reminding me I didn't pay my electricity bill!

The point in time when I started accepting 'deity' as a discrete conscious energy rather than as a translation or construct from my own mind, was when they started impinging on my own journey and will. The events that took place were inclusive of other people, were drawn in imagery that I did not create or even know of consciously and were against what I wanted at the time, yet directly rooted in my own ritual. In otherwords, they had a life of their own beyond my control. The rationale to this might be that my 'higher self' was operating on my behalf, or a subconscious construct of mine was controlling events etc. However, as soon as other people report their own experiences and the circumstances are as far as possible ascertained to be linked far beyond co-incidence (because of the causative factors and symbolism), the experience becomes objective. The very fact of others not immediately involved or aware of the purpose and work having these experiences makes it so.
Proof is not required, for me, beyond that. Nor analysis. It is also very convenient to accept an archetypal form to work with for focus and communication and further to that, it accepts the understanding of others into the work by making a shared concept.
The final factor in my acceptance was when I was nudged slowly and grudgingly into changing my mind about quite fixed concepts and behaviours. You could still say that it was all my subconscious, or my higher self, but when we go there we are already accepting controlling factors beyond the conscious self. The interpretation is always personal - some would say it is all demonic if it isn't Jesus for example!
For me, the trick is not to get all religious about it, to worship and accept blindly. These things are contractual!
jape

Jape, it seems to me that you are on a quest to meet up with particular people/beings who have already contacted you in dreams but you don't know how to find them in the day-to-day world.

If that is so, why are you seeking their presence in groups like Arddhu etc, rather than working further on the dream connection? If you regularly took with you into sleep, an intention to meet up with these beings, woulod that not be more likely to establish the relationship you seek?

Very perspicacious, Julai! They are two different lots, one lot telling me to find the others in this realm. I have actually asked them for an address or to send me an email! The next day the arrdhu thread started; its a bit like follwing clues and putting them together to make sense. Don't know why it never works simply. However I have since received an email invite to join a closed order I was looking for elsewhere and I am following it up.
You are quite right, I shall make more efforts and be more focused in intent. Ii did get a 'dream book' as others once suggested but after a few dreams once again I wake up intending to remember and after a moment while I pick up the pen, it all goes. This has always been a weak point of mine and I do give up too easily, more effort required, thanks.

Just to piggyback off of a few of Xalle's points...

It's interesting that you see all 'divine' stuff as coming from one 'source' (if you like) - I've always had problems with this viewpoint, because the questions of individuality are difficult ones. To give you a few examples...

Are all humans energies which 'come from the same thing'? i.e. are "we" a collective, and so can be considered to be part of one "whole"... or are we simply individuals?

How about the Earth? Much hacking of the Gaia hypothesis leads to the viewpoint of the Earth (and all living and abiotic things, patterns and influences on it) as being a single "organism". so does it make sense to look upon parts of "the Earth" as individuals? Or not? Are you Xalle, or just another part of Earth?

You can extend this viewpoint as far as you want - the solar system, the galaxy, etc...

*We* think that we're individuals because... well, we were brought up like that, I suppose. In my view, both answers are correct - we are individuals (as we can - as far as I can tell - act autonomously... although many scientists are firm believers in absolute determinism, I have difficulty accepting that viewpoint - personal preferences, though ), but we're also part of a greater whole, in that we act with (some?) consideration to the other parts of our "greater body" - other humans, living creatures, even the (possibly living ) rocks, rivers, etc.

So now we go all supernatural and add deities (of whatever form or provenance - personally, I dump them with other discorporate beings and call them "entities"). What's changed? not a lot, as far as I can tell.


Regarding the witch mother concept - and as jape has pointed out, this is something that's seen a lot in (what he calls) British traditional craft (personally, I'd stick a further "s" onto the end of that). 'Red thread', of course, is the belief of descent (not necessarily in a genetic sense, regardless of the Arddhu folks' lack of terminological nonce) from the 'original source' of that particular style of witchcraft. Or whatever. King(queen?)ship was also often believed to be conferred by descent from some form of divinity - IIRC, Germanic guys-in-charge claimed descent from various deities, as an example (Odin comes to mind). The healing touch (cured scrofula?) of English monarchs is also a vestige of that belief.

Not always a 'mother' figure, of course - I believe that Cochranians like Tubal Cain for this sort of thing, whereas Sabbatic craft goes for Lucifer. One would suggest that, if Whitestone do/did this, they would go for a horned god . Who knows, though.

Personally, I see this as being another form of 'initiation'. The difference between it and Wiccan initiations, of course, is that the 'passing of the power' (or bloodline, if you prefer) is done on two levels. First, you need (well, that's debatable but never mind) 'keys' in order to get in touch with $witch_parent; they're provided by the coven you join, probably in some flamboyant ceremony of some sort, which might be confused with an initiation - but isn't. The 'actual' initiation is done by $witch_parent, and - to my mind - is essentially a 'remaking' of the self. Similar to the shamanic death/rebirth.

Of course, saying "you're not a Real Witch™ unless you've met MY witch-<father|mother|genderless construct>" is another matter entirely...

xF,

...Nick

Arrdhu is a male figure but I cannot talk for them.

I like looking at the Land as the Mother and not bothering to separate the aspects usually, with me as a male having the privilege of wandering freely to do her work while she is the centre, nurturing and sustaining. Hmm, that might cause some comment ...


I should just add, the witch mother is seen as just 'half', the 'first parents' is a better concept as both are worked with according to purpose etc. I have worked with both, as either. Teaches a lot, that.

Lucifer and similar angelic deity/daemon, to my mind, would go a step further to a conjoined entity. I have experienced that through invocation, it is a very enlightening experience but not really my way. Strangely, I didn't
feel 'pure' enough to hold it, despite innately understanding the duality from all viewpoints. My self perspective I guess. More work needed as usual.

It is more fun working as male/female to join and raise that energy in selves, but then that might just be my lustful lower self holding back my spiritual development. Until my balls fall off, that is the way I prefer to work.

jape

Hey Nick,

I dont know if this will help, but I will explain where I come from, I've never tried to write down what I believe before so bare with me.

I believe that when the universe began it all came from the singularity. That all energy and matter and matter that is in the universe is already here, whether that universe is expanding or retracting I dont know, but I do believe that everything that there ever was or ever will be is already here. Now being as energy does not dissapate, just transforms, then to my mind all energy, be that of plant, rock or person comes from the one "pool" of energy.

When you tap into energies to do workings (IMHO) you are tapping into the general pool, you, can give that energy personality, or form, or you can just use the traits that the energy already has.

SO if you are asking me are we individuals, then my answer woud be yes, But if you are asking me does our energy belong uniquely to us as an individual, then the answer would be no.. this "train of thought" allowes me to explain, ghosts, gods, reincarnation, magick, in fact, just about anything that people assume to be "supernatural" of outside of what they deem to be nature, to me.. its ALL nature... just not the nature of the planet, but the nature of the universe.

Ahhh, finally someone ventures to see the big picture! Indeed, regardless what planes of existence, they are all integral to that great cosmic mechanism called the Continuum!

Yep, that's what I thought you meant

It's a train(-wreck?) of thought that I agree with to a great extent; I suppose it's just a question of style as to whether you prefer to "humanise" it all. I would - because (believe it or not!) I relate to people better than I do to formless mass... not that I relate to people very well most of the time, mind

xF,

...Nick

Totally understand the where you are coming from there Nick. I actually find it very hard to personalise it. I think it has something to do with my family upbringing and my utter lack of knowledge of the "gods". I dont know the personalities of them... so when people mention gods here, and their traits, I take them on thir word.. theres a debate on here at the moment on Loki? (havent entered that thread yet.. I tend to avoid debates on specific gods as I dont know enough about them to comment. I'veHeard of him(?) but dont know what personality he is supposed to be imbued with so I wouldnt know if he was someone that was worth worshiping or not.

I supose I would come to a debate like that from the point of view of "would I want to work with that sort of energy?"

Hi Jape, wasnt ignoring you was just trying to find a way to express what I wanted to say.. takes a little time with me.. the cogs turn slowly in this aul brain!

I know what you are saying here... but I purely on a debate level.. and not wishing to insult you or your beliefs...

I understand what you are saying about them impinging on your path, contrary to what you wanted, and I know what you mean when you say this



However the point that I was trying to make that was when a powerful individual begins forming energies, and uses a "god" form to work with them, to an extent they can take on a life of their own, become, to a certain extent concious. Let me see if I can explain.

Lets say you chose to contact a spirit. Someone from your family. The energy that was that person, is out there somewhere. Either in a pure energy form or as a part of something else. (please note.. anyone out there getting agitated with me this is MY opinion and Im not saying its right, Im just saying that since noone actually knows.. give it a little bit of time to consider it) Now lets say you choose to use, I dont know a ouija board to make contact, you concentrate on that person on their personality, their energies. I believe that it is possible to pull together enough of those energies to "reanimate" (as it were) some of that conscience. It is therefore completely possible to contact somone this way.

Now with this in mind, the Image of a god is a very complete one. If you chose to contact lets say.. eh... Thor, or Venus, you concentrate on the image you have of them, their traits and their personalities. Out there.. floating about in the mulitverse, are all the energies that "vibrate" on that level (dont know exactly.. still figuring it out a bit) they come together.. they "form" the god. Now once you have enough of them together in one place, if you do not disaperse them, they stay gelled together in that form. That form, then in a sense has the personality that you have imbued into it, part of the energy it has, is yours, since you created it. It will therefore, naturally, "hang about" you. influencing both you and those around you. It has been given life by you, and accordingly, carries out what the energies it is created from are driven to do.

Thats where Im coming from. Thats what I believe. When it then comes to the Witch Mother, ( and Im refering to this specificaly because it was something you mentioned) I personally feel, that (like the divas I mentioned in an earlier post) the "mother" was some particularly good witch. Someone of notoriety. People can become gods in mans eyes (you only have to look at the Arddhu comment on Boudicca) it doesnt mean that they were actually the 1st, the "font" of the knowledge.

[/quote]


Thats where Im coming from. Thats what I believe. When it then comes to the Witch Mother, ( and Im refering to this specificaly because it was something you mentioned) I personally feel, that (like the divas I mentioned in an earlier post) the "mother" was some particularly good witch. Someone of notoriety. People can become gods in mans eyes (you only have to look at the Arddhu comment on Boudicca) it doesnt mean that they were actually the 1st, the "font" of the knowledge.

[/quote]

This is a fascinating thread

Reading through the Arddhu thread (what little I can understand) I felt Arddhu were talking about the Witch Mother as a very different idea/concept to the other gods and goddesses in their pantheon. So I am not sure I agree with your idea that she was a living person or Witch that was made a God like figure. I sense she is a different of energy altogether. maybe even the source or mother of all witches?

The reason I say this is because one of the Arddhu members talked about goddesses and gods and in particular Boudicca and how she became a Goddess. But appeared to separate the 'witch mother' from the rest?

But just because they differentiate doesnt mean there actually IS a difference.

IMHO There is no "source of all witches" if there were then blood would be the only way for there to be witches currently in the world. Besides, where did she get the powers from if she was the first.. it just doesnt make sense to me. Who made the mother.. its the same question when it comes to gods, who made the gods... There are witches and shamens, and witch doctors and blah blah the world over, even many of those who do not consider themselves witches work with magick *shakes head* no Im sorry, I just cant accept a "witch mother" OR gods it just doesnt make any sense to me.

.. and thus we get to atlantis and angels/daemons, how azazael got his domain, the glass castle of the north, aliens from Sirius and so on! Destined to remain in myth unless some kind, enlightened soul tells us all.

It wouldn't have to be through blood that it is passed on Xalle. That misses the point of um, let us say 'spiritual energy' or soul being outside of this material realm and the time and space of this membrane (to pull in a pyshics term from unified theory and confuse the issue further!)

I agree that sometimes the entitiy we 'talk' to as ancestor or spirit is a re-animation rather than the actual being. Sometimes it isn't though.

I just think the concepts we have are based on linear thinking, the language and symbolism we are shaped by and that we interpret according to that and the abstracts we include in our more metaphysical constructs. Humans are good at pattern, both recognition and creation. I would also remind that we are using a lot of intellect here inthis discussion and the experience of 'energy' in this way, of any entities, can also have a powerful emotional or intuitive reaction in us, thus we get belief and acceptance beyond rational. I believe then we get closer to the liminal state.

Imagination is coloured by the conceptual weighting of 'unreal', fantasy etc. The intepretation of these themes, memes and events when etablished systematically becomes recognidsed as insanity if it falls outside of rational norms, or heresy in religious terms, or again, as the accepted religion if a large groups accepts it.

One thing that I find in most witches that 'I' accept as such, is that the immanence of realisation and the subjective acceptance of metaphysical patterns is respected. The nomenclature and terminology often borrows from memes and acculturation but the shared understanding is through intuition. That usually means a connection beyond the mere will to share. In what part of the unconscious this happens is irrelevant and also outside of a particular belief system.

Thus we have the shamans and witch doctors you mention, Xalle, hopefully recognising something in one-another. The question that arises, is why is the next point so often, war? But that is a digression.

We don't need to know who was the first, who is a deity, at what point the being moves up the scale. Surely that wouldn't be because a bunch of ignorant humans decide to worship them, although that would add energy it wouldn't raise the energy? I prefer to leave hagiography and the multitudes of heirarchical definitions to pedants, catholics and Enochians!

However the immanent experience of connection to that energy encompasses a revelation. I interpret it my way, others will have their own understanding.

This is where the arguments happen, who believes they have the 'one right understanding', along with the secret keys of knowledge and so on.
We value, hold and protect our understanding and immediately we are again separate, individual self. If we join and create groups (such as religions, traditions) to reach again to the communion, we have the paradox of definition, that continues to separate one from another.

I hoped, ideally, that arrdhu in entering the forum was willing at least to describe their understanding as we all have here, perhaps with trepidation but without fear. It doesn't take a lot of intelligence to see that they (and others) fail in their very exclusiveness. They lose what they protect and the power they have is weakened in themselves because ultimately, that powe is not us. We are part, as individuals, and whole when in true communion. We can work as a group or alone, but what we know is not exclusive, it is inclusive.

Sermon for today over, I need a fag and a cuppa.

jape

.. and thus we get to atlantis and angels/daemons, how azazael got his domain, the glass castle of the north, aliens from Sirius and so on! Destined to remain in myth unless some kind, enlightened soul tells us all.

It wouldn't have to be through blood that it is passed on Xalle. That misses the point of um, let us say 'spiritual energy' or soul being outside of this material realm and the time and space of this membrane (to pull in a pyshics term from unified theory and confuse the issue further!)

I agree that sometimes the entitiy we 'talk' to as ancestor or spirit is a re-animation rather than the actual being. Sometimes it isn't though.

I just think the concepts we have are based on linear thinking, the language and symbolism we are shaped by and that we interpret according to that and the abstracts we include in our more metaphysical constructs. Humans are good at pattern, both recognition and creation. I would also remind that we are using a lot of intellect here inthis discussion and the experience of 'energy' in this way, of any entities, can also have a powerful emotional or intuitive reaction in us, thus we get belief and acceptance beyond rational. I believe then we get closer to the liminal state.

Imagination is coloured by the conceptual weighting of 'unreal', fantasy etc. The intepretation of these themes, memes and events when etablished systematically becomes recognidsed as insanity if it falls outside of rational norms, or heresy in religious terms, or again, as the accepted religion if a large groups accepts it.

One thing that I find in most witches that 'I' accept as such, is that the immanence of realisation and the subjective acceptance of metaphysical patterns is respected. The nomenclature and terminology often borrows from memes and acculturation but the shared understanding is through intuition. That usually means a connection beyond the mere will to share. In what part of the unconscious this happens is irrelevant and also outside of a particular belief system.

Thus we have the shamans and witch doctors you mention, Xalle, hopefully recognising something in one-another. The question that arises, is why is the next point so often, war? But that is a digression.

We don't need to know who was the first, who is a deity, at what point the being moves up the scale. Surely that wouldn't be because a bunch of ignorant humans decide to worship them, although that would add energy it wouldn't raise the energy? I prefer to leave hagiography and the multitudes of heirarchical definitions to pedants, catholics and Enochians!

However the immanent experience of connection to that energy encompasses a revelation. I interpret it my way, others will have their own understanding.

This is where the arguments happen, who believes they have the 'one right understanding', along with the secret keys of knowledge and so on.
We value, hold and protect our understanding and immediately we are again separate, individual self. If we join and create groups (such as religions, traditions) to reach again to the communion, we have the paradox of definition, that continues to separate one from another.

I hoped, ideally, that arrdhu in entering the forum was willing at least to describe their understanding as we all have here, perhaps with trepidation but without fear. It doesn't take a lot of intelligence to see that they (and others) fail in their very exclusiveness. They lose what they protect and the power they have is weakened in themselves because ultimately, that powe is not us. We are part of it, as individuals, and whole when in true communion. We can work as a group or alone, but what we know is not exclusive, it is inclusive.

Sermon for today over, I need a fag and a cuppa.

jape

I hoped, ideally, that arrdhu in entering the forum was willing at least to describe their understanding as we all have here, perhaps with trepidation but without fear. It doesn't take a lot of intelligence to see that they (and others) fail in their very exclusiveness. They lose what they protect and the power they have is weakened in themselves because ultimately, that powe is not us. We are part, as individuals, and whole when in true communion. We can work as a group or alone, but what we know is not exclusive, it is inclusive.

Sermon for today over, I need a fag and a cuppa.

jape

[/quote]

I think they did try to do that. I am picking up bits and pieces as I read through. As for exclusiveness, well again I would tend to disagree with your comments here, I know you have a problem with them because they rejected you, and I am sorry for that. One of the members said it was about guarding something very special and I can see why.

[/quote]

I think they did try to do that. I am picking up bits and pieces as I read through. As for exclusiveness, well again I would tend to disagree with your comments here, I know you have a problem with them because they rejected you, and I am sorry for that. One of the members said it was about guarding something very special and I can see why.

[/quote]

I don't have a problem with them, they have one with me and the rest of the world that are not defined by their specific belief.

I was the one who said they guarded something special.

What are you seeing that we aren't?
jape

[quote=jape,Oct 18 2006, 12:12 PM]
[/quote]

I think they did try to do that. I am picking up bits and pieces as I read through. As for exclusiveness, well again I would tend to disagree with your comments here, I know you have a problem with them because they rejected you, and I am sorry for that. One of the members said it was about guarding something very special and I can see why.

[/quote]

I don't have a problem with them, they have one with me and the rest of the world that are not defined by their specific belief.

I was the one who said they guarded something special.

What are you seeing that we aren't?
jape

[/quote]
sorry jape I must have read what you said wrong. I just see lots of interesting stuff in what they said like 3 ages of witchcraft - never heard of that before and the witch mother. sorry if i offended you

You know, Shadespirit, that's the most illuminating thing I've read about the whole Ardhhu, Ravening, Whitestone etc paths I've read on the forum. Thank you.

[quote=Shadowdancer,Oct 18 2006, 11:20 AM]
I hoped, ideally, that arrdhu in entering the forum was willing at least to describe their understanding as we all have here, perhaps with trepidation but without fear. It doesn't take a lot of intelligence to see that they (and others) fail in their very exclusiveness. They lose what they protect and the power they have is weakened in themselves because ultimately, that powe is not us. We are part, as individuals, and whole when in true communion. We can work as a group or alone, but what we know is not exclusive, it is inclusive.

Sermon for today over, I need a fag and a cuppa.

jape

[/quote]

I think they did try to do that. I am picking up bits and pieces as I read through. As for exclusiveness, well again I would tend to disagree with your comments here, I know you have a problem with them because they rejected you, and I am sorry for that. One of the members said it was about guarding something very special and I can see why.

[/quote]

I dont see it myself Shadow. If they have something to protect, then it should be protected finding the right people to walk the path that they have should not come down to whether or not you are willing to pay £75 and agree to their terms and conditions. I know, for example, that I write my BOS and work my thang, in the knowledge that one day, perhaps, maybe, I might be able to pass it on to someone. If that someone comes along, I will recognise them. You feel it, sense it in others. It wont be via correspondence course and a "please sign here" and agree not to share it with someone else. I personally feel they have diminished what they have by selling it.

Now dont misunderstand, the path I come from... quite willing to accept fees for the work we do.. but it is for the work we do. I personally have never accepted a payment offered, but If my circumstances were different I might. Still that would be for a job done, not for the teaching of my secrets .

Jape... I just dont know what to say, I read what you wrote several times and I still dont really understand what you are saying, I dont mean in a debating sense as in i dont understand where you are coming from, I mean in a literal.. "i havent a clue what you wrote." sense!

So if you dont mind, and with the permission of everyone else here reading this thread.. Im gonna ask you to go thought this with me step by step?

[QUOTE].. and thus we get to atlantis and angels/daemons, how azazael got his domain, the glass castle of the north, aliens from Sirius and so on! Destined to remain in myth unless some kind, enlightened soul tells us all.
[/QUOTE]

eh.. what? How? How do we get here?

[QUOTE]I agree that sometimes the entitiy we 'talk' to as ancestor or spirit is a re-animation rather than the actual being. Sometimes it isnt though [/QUOTE]

How so? What makes you say that?

[quote=Xalle,Oct 18 2006, 12:46 PM]
[quote=Shadowdancer,Oct 18 2006, 11:20 AM]
I hoped, ideally, that arrdhu in entering the forum was willing at least to describe their understanding as we all have here, perhaps with trepidation but without fear. It doesn't take a lot of intelligence to see that they (and others) fail in their very exclusiveness. They lose what they protect and the power they have is weakened in themselves because ultimately, that powe is not us. We are part, as individuals, and whole when in true communion. We can work as a group or alone, but what we know is not exclusive, it is inclusive.

Sermon for today over, I need a fag and a cuppa.

jape

[/quote]

I think they did try to do that. I am picking up bits and pieces as I read through. As for exclusiveness, well again I would tend to disagree with your comments here, I know you have a problem with them because they rejected you, and I am sorry for that. One of the members said it was about guarding something very special and I can see why.

[/quote]

I dont see it myself Shadow. If they have something to protect, then it should be protected finding the right people to walk the path that they have should not come down to whether or not you are willing to pay £75 and agree to their terms and conditions. I know, for example, that I write my BOS and work my thang, in the knowledge that one day, perhaps, maybe, I might be able to pass it on to someone. If that someone comes along, I will recognise them. You feel it, sense it in others. It wont be via correspondence course and a "please sign here" and agree not to share it with someone else. I personally feel they have diminished what they have by selling it.

Now dont misunderstand, the path I come from... quite willing to accept fees for the work we do.. but it is for the work we do. I personally have never accepted a payment offered, but If my circumstances were different I might. Still that would be for a job done, not for the teaching of my secrets .

Jape... I just dont know what to say, I read what you wrote several times and I still dont really understand what you are saying, I dont mean in a debating sense as in i dont understand where you are coming from, I mean in a literal.. "i havent a clue what you wrote." sense!

So if you dont mind, and with the permission of everyone else here reading this thread.. Im gonna ask you to go thought this with me step by step?

[QUOTE].. and thus we get to atlantis and angels/daemons, how azazael got his domain, the glass castle of the north, aliens from Sirius and so on! Destined to remain in myth unless some kind, enlightened soul tells us all.
[/QUOTE]

eh.. what? How? How do we get here?

[QUOTE]I agree that sometimes the entitiy we 'talk' to as ancestor or spirit is a re-animation rather than the actual being. Sometimes it isnt though [/QUOTE]

How so? What makes you say that?

[/quote]

Thats ok I understand what you are saying! I dont understand it all but just commenting on what I can (i think ) unravel from the Arddhu thread.

I agree with you. I did not completely understand what Jape trying to say. I understood the glass castle stuff but the rest was a bit beyond me!
sorry!