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elswyth


Last night in the pub, I had a rather interesting chat with a lass about Lilith. Not normally my cup of tea, a mentioned link between Lilith and mirrors caught my attention. Now you see, I'm quite fascinated with mirrors and for some reason have never liked uncovered mirrors in my bedroom. No conscious reason but covering them up is something I've always done since being a kid. So anyway, the link to lilith and mirrors was mentioned and my fetid little brain decided to do a little poking around. I found this

QUOTE
The wife brought the mirror and all of the fine furnishings in the cellar to her own home and proudly displayed it. She hung the mirror in the room of their daughter, who was a dark-haired coquette. The girl glanced at herself in the mirror all the time, and in this way she was drawn into Lilith's web.... For that mirror had hung in the the den of demons, and a daughter of Lilith had made her home there. And when the mirror was taken from the haunted house, the demoness came with it. For every mirror is a gateway to the Other World and leads directly to Lilith's
cave. That is the cave Lilith went to when she abandoned Adam and the Garden of Eden for all time, the cave where she sported with her demon lovers. From these unions multitudes of demons were born, who flocked from that cave and infiltrated the world. And when they want to return, they simply enter the nearest mirror. That is why it is said that Lilith makes her home in every mirror...

"Now the daughter of Lilith who made her home in that mirror watched every movement of the girl who posed before it. She bided her time and one day she slipped out of the mirror and took possession of the girl, entering through her eyes. In this way she took control of her, stirring her desire at will.... So it
happened that this young girl, driven by the evil wishes of Lilith's daughter, ran around with young men who lived in the same neighborhood."


'Lilith's cave:Jewish Tales of the Supernatural, edited by Howard Schwartz (San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1988)

Of course, this tale could be a classic tale of warning against the sins of vanity however the first thing I thought of when I read it was the 'Bloody Mary' urban legend. Basically it comes from a kid's dare where a kid goes and stands/sits in front of a mirror in the dark (usually in the bathroom) and says something along the lines of 'Bloody Mary' either 3 or 13 times and Bloody mary is supposed to come out and scratch your eyes out. As with all urban legends, there are variations on the legend, especially the chant and I've heard of both 'Bloody mary, bloody baby' or 'bloody mary I killed your baby' or 'white lady white lady I killed your baby.

Now this may be a completely eroneous connection that I'm making however I find it interesting that there are 3 common threads between the lilith thing and the bloody mary thing.

*the mirror as a gateway
*entry/destruction through the eyes
*the baby reference in some of the chants especially considering the Jewish tradition of male babies being taken by Lilith's offspring the Lilin.

So what do you lot think? Could the bloody mary thing have started as some corruption of Jewish folklore around Lilith? Where do you think the Bloody Mary thing started? Would you want to work with Lilith and if so what does she represent to you and would you ever try calling upon her through a mirror?
Xalle
oooooh! Smashing post.. Im off to give it some serious thought and come back!
jape
I have worked with Lilim but not Lilith herself as that aspect. Refreshing and powerful work, very direct and assertive energy, sexually absolutely unrestrained (which is not what people think it is).

This is femininity with a completely different relationship to male and the adepts make succubi very welcome visitors. Can be a bit messy.
There is also a very nurturing aspect hidden away, Lilim aren't just about unrestrained libido, in fact that side of their reputation is more from the male fears than from reality. A powerful female witch/worker is far more menaingful in terms of true nurturing/balancing with the male psyche as the added concepts of 'support' and need do not exist.

The mirror stuff I hadn't seen described as you report it, that is a great story nor had i ever heard the Bloody Mary chant. Maybe a catholic school background is needed? Mary of course is more Lilith than Eve (Eve wouldn't have fukked an angel or spirit in any guise) and was once the dark lady at times so might even be directly connected in her Mesopotamian origins, but only scholars can really argue that stuff.

It is much more interesting to work experientially and call the energy or work with Lilim.

I used to use mirrors a lot to enter trance, so I would say that with reference to the psyche, the truer aspects of female live int he unconscious and connect with that free energy far more easily on the realms, certainly of the adepts I have met, two of them were able to journey at will. How I first met one of them in fact! the other was able once I welcomed her.

I would say you are right to some extent, but the chant is not a corruption but a recognition of Mary as the dark moon. Witches never used to be frightened of xtianity as a modality, and vice versa.

I wouldn't say it is a corruption so much as that the jewish view, as you call it, of Lilith is the darker one of child stealer/vampire etc. Much like the repression of female menstruation, psyche, birth right, freedom passed down through nastier male god religions all fukked up and frightened of women and their own deep soul.

"Blood is so powerful. the red and the white flowing freely together from the gateways, in both - the liminal expressed and explored, the imagination freed, energy rising and the flocks screaming with shared delight..."

jape
Crow
Great post, Elswyth!

As far as I'm aware, the Bloody Mary urban legend is largely an American one so yes, I imagine it could have sprung from tales told by Jewish emigrants. I wonder, does anyone know the reason why orthodox Jews will cover mirrors in their houses when a death occurs in the family? Is this something to do with folklore or is it purely a symbol that argues personal vanity should be set aside in times of mourning?
Herneoakshield
QUOTE(Crow @ Oct 14 2006, 11:14 AM)
Great post, Elswyth!
I wonder, does anyone now the  reason why orthodox Jews will cover mirrors in their houses when a death occurs in the family? Is this something to do with folklore or is it purely a symbol that argues personal vanity should be set aside in times of mourning?
*




I think that is down to folklore, which goes something along the lines of if anyone looks into a mirror when a death occurs in the house, they will be the next to die. or there is the belief that the soul of the deceased would be trapped in the mirror if it saw itself.
Xalle
With regards to the covering of the mirrors at times of death, I think its actually a little more simple than it being a doorway.

At the time there is a death in the house, mirrors are covered, clocks stopped etc etc because priorities are suppsed to have changed, time is unimportant and how you look is also not suppsed to be important. Also mirrors reflect light and in the same way when there is a death the blinds or curtains in a house are drawn the mirros is covered to keep the place in darkness.

With regards to a jewish link to this, for the same reason that they may not have or use a mirror in the sanctuary of a synagogue, or have a mirror in a room where people will pray. It is considered idolatrous to look at a representation of a human being during prayer, when their thoughts should be directed only to God. Especially at the time of a death when prayers are supposed to be directed to god for the spirit of the person who has passed on.

When it comes to Bloody Mary, I think it is nothing more than an urban legend. Mirrors have been know to be doorways for centuries, and and little bit of knowledge in the wrong hands can be twisted in a nice little way to frighten the bejusus outta kids.

Is it a way to contact Lilith, perhaps it is. Not working with entities like that its a little hard for me to know. I do work with mirrors as a way to scry and "see", and I do believe that spirits are drawn to them, but I havent quite worked out the why on that one just yet... If I do.. I'll be back!
Queenie
QUOTE(elswyth @ Oct 13 2006, 07:33 PM)

So what do you lot think? Could the bloody mary thing have started as some corruption of Jewish folklore around Lilith? Where do you think the Bloody Mary thing started? Would you want to work with Lilith and if so what does she represent to you and would you ever try calling upon her through a mirror?
*



It's a very interesting suggestion that there is a link between Lilith and Bloody Mary.

I know that some researchers into the Bloody Mary myth, have suggested that Bloody Mary might have links to Mary Queen of Scots, being confused with the legends of Elizabeth Bathory (i.e. an aging woman scaraficing young women to bathe in their blood).

I don't know if there are any definitive roots though, the Bloody Mary myths and urban legends have so many variations.

I know that our local myth, involved going into some local woods, known as the Manor, where there was a small raised bank known as Elephant Hill. Our 'Bloody Mary' was referred to as a white lady, and to summon her you had to walk backwards, 7 times around Elephant Hill, saying 'I don't believe in the White Lady'. According to legend she'd be summoned, and then scratch out your eyes for your troubles.

Q
very
And ours was to do with the Woodhead Tunnel in South Yorkshire, although it was big variation, in our scary tale a young woman called Mary was on the train that goes through woodhead tunnel and was leaning out of the door waving to her family when the train went through the tunnel and decapitated her.

It was said if you went into the tunnel and were unlucky enough to meet her you would suffer a similar fate...

There does seem to be similarities between Lilith and Bloody Mary (isn't it interesting a drink is called this!) but I too thought Bloody Mary was mostly an american urban legend?

I don't cover mirrors but I do make sure they can't be seen from the bed.. for the simple reason I scare myself silly if I happen to wake up in the dark and see a "human" shape in one... coupled with bad vision anyway... well one of these days I'll suffer a heart attack. lol. Hence I don't generally watch horrors. Yet oddly I rather like walking around in the dark, I suppose it's more peaceful.

And no I haven't felt an urge to look up Lilith.
elswyth
QUOTE(Jape)
I would say you are right to some extent, but the chant is not a corruption but a recognition of Mary as the dark moon. Witches never used to be frightened of xtianity as a modality, and vice versa.



The chant is nothing to do with Witches Jape, it's something kids do to scare the crap out of themselves when they sleep at their mate's house. It comes from urban legend.

QUOTE
I wouldn't say it is a corruption so much as that the jewish view, as you call it, of Lilith is the darker one of child stealer/vampire


I've not come across any references to Lilith as a vampire in the Jewish texts. Do you have any links for that? I thought that particular part of the Lilith myth was more contemporary and came from role playing games such as Vampire: The masquerade and their 'Book of Nod' which tells the creation of Vampires.

QUOTE(Crow)
As far as I'm aware, the Bloody Mary urban legend is largely an American one so yes, I imagine it could have sprung from tales told by Jewish emigrants. I wonder, does anyone now the reason why orthodox Jews will cover mirrors in their houses when a death occurs in the family? Is this something to do with folklore or is it purely a symbol that argues personal vanity should be set aside in times of mourning


Could there not be more than one reason for it Crow? I'm just thinking about our familial custom of shutting the curtains after a death occurs. Now we close them out of respect for the dead but a few generations back it might have been to stop the dead from re-entering through the window. Maybe the vanity reason is a newer one?

QUOTE(Xalle)
When it comes to Bloody Mary, I think it is nothing more than an urban legend. Mirrors have been know to be doorways for centuries, and and little bit of knowledge in the wrong hands can be twisted in a nice little way to frighten the bejusus outta kids.


It could be that, however the thing that does make me wonder is the fact that so much of our society has been permeated with Judeo-Christian belief and for so long too. Maybe it's from Judeo-Christian tradition that people began to consider mirrors as gateways?

QUOTE(Queenie)
I know that some researchers into the Bloody Mary myth, have suggested that Bloody Mary might have links to Mary Queen of Scots, being confused with the legends of Elizabeth Bathory (i.e. an aging woman scaraficing young women to bathe in their blood).


I don't know. The Bloody mary link to Queen Mary seems too convenient - especially in an urban myth that others have said is predominantly American. The time frame doesn't fit either I don't think. I think the urban legend is much newer.

QUOTE(Very)
There does seem to be similarities between Lilith and Bloody Mary (isn't it interesting a drink is called this!) but I too thought Bloody Mary was mostly an american urban legend?


Yes but it does exist over here too (to a lesser degree) it would seem - probably imported from America....But I do think that what Crow said about there being a high percentage of Jewish immigrants that went to America could explain that.

jape
I don't remember the exact jewish connection Elswyth, I was working from brief notes I made a while back as it is a couple of years since I knew a 'lilim' and took part on the Lilith forum here. I can ask them for derivations and sources if you wish. The reference I made then was to 'lilitu' the 'bloodsucking, night daemon'. I know translations from Mesopotamian and Akkadian sources are disputed.
jape
Xalle
QUOTE
Maybe it's from Judeo-Christian tradition that people began to consider mirrors as gateways?


Good point.. it would make sense!
elswyth
QUOTE(Jape)
I don't remember the exact jewish connection Elswyth, I was working from brief notes I made a while back as it is a couple of years since I knew a 'lilim' and took part on the Lilith forum here. I can ask them for derivations and sources if you wish. The reference I made then was to 'lilitu' the 'bloodsucking, night daemon'. I know translations from Mesopotamian and Akkadian sources are disputed.
jape


Yes please biggrin.gif I would be really interested to read the vampire link from something that's not....er.....y'know...biggrin.gif
Pomona
I'm going to have a think about the rest of this, but the epithet Bloody Mary was actually applied to Queen Mary, Elizabeth I elder sister. She gained the nickname for her frankly bloody reign when she tried to convert England back to Catholicism. She was pretty universally hated in England - lost Calais, brought the Inquisition to England, along with her Spanish husband, Philip.

Don't know if that has any connection to the mirror thing, but there are a few nursery rhymes and songs relating to Bloody Mary (must dig them out) (and indeed, that apparently is where the drink name comes from).

Xalle
Something interesting?

QUOTE
In folklore and children's street culture, "Bloody Mary" is the name of a children's game in which a ghost or witch of the same name (or sometimes other names, such as Mary Worth) is said to appear in a mirror when summoned. One of the more common ways participants attempt to make her appear is to stand before a mirror in the dark and repeat her name three times, though there are many variations. Some include chanting a hundred times, chanting at midnight, spinning around, or rubbing one's eyes. Most of these are meant to disorient people. In some versions of the legend, the summoner must say "Bloody Mary, I killed your son!" (or "I killed your baby"). In these variants, Bloody Mary is often believed to be the spirit of a mother (often a widow) who murdered her children, or a woman who was murdered shortly before or after her wedding. In stories where Mary is supposed to have been wrongly accused of killing her children, the querent might say "I believe in Mary Worth." This is similar to another game involving the summoning of The Bell Witch in a mirror at midnight. Similar rituals are also used to summon spirits in the movies Beetlejuice (1988) and Candyman (1992). The game is often a test of courage, as it is said that if Bloody Mary is summoned, she would proceed to murder the summoner, often in a quite violent way, such as ripping his or her face off. Other variations say that the querent must not look directly at her, but at her image in the mirror; she will then reveal the querent's future, particularly concerning marriage and children.

Bloody Mary Worth is typically described as a child-murderess who lived in the locality where the legend has taken root years ago. There is often a specific local graveyard or tombstone that becomes attached to the legend.

On the other hand, various people have surmised that the lore about taunting Bloody Mary about her baby may relate her tenuously to folklore about Queen Mary I. [3][4]The queen's life was marked by a number of miscarriages or false pregnancies. Had Mary I successfully borne a child, this would have established a Roman Catholic succession and threatened the continuance of her religious persecutions after her death. Speculation exists that the miscarriages were deliberately induced. As a result, some retellings of the tale make Bloody Mary the queen driven to madness by the loss of her children. [5] It is likely, however, that Queen Mary I provided only her nickname to the Bloody Mary of folklore. She is also confused in some tellings of the story with Mary Queen of Scots. Bloody Mary is sometimes said to have bathed in the blood of her child victims in order to retain a youthful complexion; this would appear to confound her with Elizabeth Báthory.

The mirror ritual by which Bloody Mary is summoned may also relate to a form of divination involving mirrors and darkness that was once performed on Halloween. While as with any sort of folklore the details may vary, this particular tale encouraged young women to walk up a flight of stairs backwards, holding a candle and a hand mirror, in a darkened house. As they gazed into the mirror, they were supposed to be able to catch a view of their future husband's face. There was, however, a chance that they would see the skull-face of the Grim Reaper instead; this meant, of course, that they were destined to die before they married.

The appearance of a ghostly figure in the mirror could be explained quite easily for the more complex rituals, for example spinning around whilst summoning Bloody Mary in front of a mirror lit by candles. The combination of dizzyness, rapid movement and flickering lighting could easily fool the eye into seeing someone, especially when the idea has already been implanted.

elswyth
QUOTE(Pomona)
I'm going to have a think about the rest of this, but the epithet Bloody Mary was actually applied to Queen Mary, Elizabeth I elder sister.


I know - the lass had a bit of a nasty habit of burning people that wouldn't convert back to Catholicism o_yikes.gif o_bolt.gif

I've wondered about this with the possible Bloody Mary as in Queen Mary but as an explanation - it doesn't feel 'right' to me because of what the mirror is supposed to become in the urban legend - a gateway for bloody mary to come out and scratch your eyes out. And the eye thing too. Aside from a gorey embellishment or two, it's very similar to the Jewish Lilith possession tale. If it was a case of chanting 'bloody mary, I burnt your baby' a few times and she came out and burned you alive or something then I'd probably say it was Queen Mary being Bloody Mary. But going from Queen Mary who burned people and had a few miscarriages to an urban legend about mirrors is a bit of a stretch for me. Am I being confusing here?

That's not to say I'm right, in fact I'm probably completely wrong.


Thank you for posting that article Xalle biggrin.gif. However the Mary Worth variants or the tale of a local young mother sounds to me like making the myth 'their own'. Taking something older and more universal and linking it to the local area ...or something like that ...biggrin.gif

Queenie
QUOTE(Pomona @ Oct 17 2006, 03:05 PM)
Don't know if that has any connection to the mirror thing,  but there are a few nursery rhymes and songs relating to Bloody Mary (must dig them out) (and indeed, that apparently is where the drink name comes from).
*



Mary Mary Quite Contrary and 3 Blind Mice have both been linked to Queen (Bloody) Mary.

Q
Herneoakshield
Here's a version of the Bloody Mary story from Pennsylvania

She lived deep in the forest in a tiny cottage and sold herbal remedies for a living. Folks living in the town nearby called her Bloody Mary, and said she was a witch. None dared cross the old crone for fear that their cows would go dry, their food-stores rot away before winter, their children take sick of fever, or any number of terrible things that an angry witch could do to her neighbors.

Then the little girls in the village began to disappear, one by one. No one could find out where they had gone. Grief-stricken families searched the woods, the local buildings, and all the houses and barns, but there was no sign of the missing girls. A few brave souls even went to Bloody Mary's home in the woods to see if the witch had taken the girls, but she denied any knowledge of the disappearances. Still, it was noted that her haggard appearance had changed. She looked younger, more attractive. The neighbors were suspicious, but they could find no proof that the witch had taken their young ones.

Then came the night when the daughter of the miller rose from her bed and walked outside, following an enchanted sound no one else could hear. The miller's wife had a toothache and was sitting up in the kitchen treating the tooth with an herbal remedy when her daughter left the house. She screamed for her husband and followed the girl out of the door. The miller came running in his nightshirt. Together, they tried to restrain the girl, but she kept breaking away from them and heading out of town.

The desperate cries of the miller and his wife woke the neighbors. They came to assist the frantic couple. Suddenly, a sharp-eyed farmer gave a shout and pointed towards a strange light at the edge of the woods. A few townsmen followed him out into the field and saw Bloody Mary standing beside a large oak tree, holding a magic wand that was pointed towards the miller's house. She was glowing with an unearthly light as she set her evil spell upon the miller's daughter.

The townsmen grabbed their guns and their pitchforks and ran toward the witch. When she heard the commotion, Bloody Mary broke off her spell and fled back into the woods. The far-sighted farmer had loaded his gun with silver bullets in case the witch ever came after his daughter. Now he took aim and shot at her. The bullet hit Bloody Mary in the hip and she fell to the ground. The angry townsmen leapt upon her and carried her back into the field, where they built a huge bonfire and burned her at the stake.

As she burned, Bloody Mary screamed a curse at the villagers. If anyone mentioned her name aloud before a mirror, she would send her spirit to revenge herself upon them for her terrible death. When she was dead, the villagers went to the house in the wood and found the unmarked graves of the little girls the evil witch had murdered. She had used their blood to make her young again.

From that day to this, anyone foolish enough to chant Bloody Mary's name three times before a darkened mirror will summon the vengeful spirit of the witch. It is said that she will tear their bodies to pieces and rip their souls from their mutilated bodies. The souls of these unfortunate ones will burn in torment as Bloody Mary once was burned, and they will be trapped forever in the mirror.
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