Hello,
I realise I am new here and hope you will bear with me but I have been reading the topics with great interest for a couple of weeks now as a guest and felt I needed to register to be able to get any answers that I needed.

I dearly hope I have not missed my opportunity.

I started my path about 10 years ago, when someone bought me Titania Hardie's book...yes fluffy i know ok, but it was all i had to go on at that time, since then, I have tried to read as much as I can about witchcraft and the like.

What I see here on these forums is many differences of opinons, which is great! we all have somethin to contribute..but..how can i put this as a newbie..ok

having read what the arrddhu people have to say and the ravening people and all the others who either support or oppose them...i personally have no problem with being told I am not Witch, even though I thought I was. I have followed someting within me and if they tell me it's not witchcraft then my question would be, well, ok, what is it then.

I don't need to have a name to be what I am, but would love to learn more about what it is to be a "Witch", if it is one true "teaching" or "being" then I am quite prepared to listen and take on board what I might not yet know. If I get to the end of their "teachings" and decide they have told me nothing..then I will walk away wiser, but to not ask...0h I cannot do that.

Hi and hello to all of you as newbie to the forum..but not to the path

Hope to have very many more discussions with you all

May the force be with you!!

Spirit xx

ooopsee hi moderators..if I have put this in wrong bit then please feel free to move it..sowweey

Welcome

A witch is a witch in heart an essence, who give a toss what name you give yourself, at the end o the day the only thing that matter, is 'what a witch can do, an what a witch can't do'.
It all goes back to the land, an if you aint up to scratch' you will be outed from there, without a doubt.

The land pick an choose...be there or be square

Rain

sounds about right rain!

[cool, that is good to know..but I am interested in what "witchcraft" involves. I have no problem with what I am, or what I know..well so far that is, but it seems there is a lot more knowledge than what i have, well according to these threads anyway. I am not afraid to ask or to be proved wrong with what I have learned so far. I am also not afraid of not being a witch if that is the right way to put it, but again to learn what they have intrigues me.
Also Pomona, having read what you write, you are from Scotland, yes? which is where my "bloodline" is from, so would love to hear more about your path andl.....yes....before everyone starts jumpin on me..I have read the threads a nd know bloodline does not mean hereditary...i am just talking about my family link...who have never claimed to be witch
thank you again

Dear Rain,

"The land pick an choose...be there or be square "

Very true. And no group of people have sole claim to speak for the land, or the Gods.

Did you say earlier that you go lamping in the woods? That's a hell of a way of discouraging casual curiosity .

Best Wishes,

John Macintyre

Dear john,

You spot on...no bugger has the right to speak on behalf o the land...an more fool them if they do. I go lamping with me dogs (pre hunting law an all ) .

To know the land an become part of the native essence in the woods is to be part of the land.

The great hunter crawl on his belly ...tis lore.....Herne knows the score...its hardcore

Rain

Hey hon, I've just noticed this. I will reply, but not immediately, simply because I have to go and pick up a no-doubt furious (and sleepy) cat from the vets and placate her!

Hello nature spirit

If I may offer a thought

You are in control of your own destiny, you can be whatever you want to be, the only one who can stop you is yourself. If the Witch within you is dreaming or awakening, then follow your intuition and you wont go far wrong.

[Thank you for that, It is pretty much what I have been doing for all the time I have been a "Witch"...the reason I questioned it was because it seems to be claimed, and if I am muddling up who said it then I apologise, that what we on here are doing is following "a path" but it is not "Witchcraft". Whilst I have no problem with that, I am happy with what I do or am, I am intrigued to know what this path of "Witchcraft" entails and how it is so different to what we here are doing.

I'm not upset or offended if someone thinks I am not Witch...I have no need of label, but am open to hearing from others. If there is only one Witchcraft then it would be nice for it to be explained so the rest of us can see where we are differing and encorporate it into our own practice, if that is appropriate.

Hope that makes sense

It does make sense natures spirit, but I dont think it was I who said that.

witchcraft is something anyone can do, by its very definition it is the craft of the wise. Although Witch may make use of a craft he or she is wise in, it isnt the practice of witchcraft that makes someone Witch.

ahhh so you can use witchcraft but not be a witch...but a witch is a witch..am I understanding that right?? if so then what is it that makes a witch unique..and what do they do or have that nobody else does even if they are using witchcraft

HUH?? that doesnt make any sense at all! sorry spirit! but how can someone practice witchcraft and not be a witch?

HUH?? that doesnt make any sense at all! sorry spirit! but how can someone practice witchcraft and not be a witch?

[/quote]

Hi Shadow,
Yes that's what I'm trying to clarify...I don't get it either, but hopefully she will be able to help on that one.

Shade...I'm sorry I keep referring to you as a "she" if you are male I apologise

You can be a witch, but you cannot be a Witch...

It's all in the punctuation.

--

To be fair, Wiccans are usually the ones who have come through Gardnerian (or at a pinch, Alexandrian) initiation gateways, while wiccans are those who have chosen other routes.

--

I would probably accept that I am a heathen folk witch, but I certainly wouldn't want anyone to have the bother of writing a capital 'W' every time

--

Jez

In the same way being able to cook doesnt make you a chef!

ok! I see! so how do you know the difference between someone who just practices witchcraft and is witch, and someone who is a Witch? rather than them telling you on line of course.....

I am female not male, and thats fine natures spirit

I think its to do with they way that Witch is defined by them. In the same way that you have Wiccans, and wiccans, they define you as a Witch, if you have had what they see as an awakening (shade, if Im wrong here correct me!).

It doesnt mean that you are not a witch if you havent, and it doesnt mean that they wouldnt classify you as a witch if you never bothered with them ever. But in their vocabulary, you would be a witch, not a Witch. Does that help?

shadowdancer said "how can someone practice witchcraft and not be a witch?"

fair question.

anyone can practise witchcraft, the word means the craft of the wise. If someone walks into a forest, cuts down a tree and fashions it into a chair he or she is using a craft they are wise in to do a job.

Just the same as when someone is stung by a nettle and reaches for a dock leaf or a callendula leaf, rubs it on the sting and relieves it.

these people are using a craft they are wise in, they are using witchcraft.

yet to be able to do these things doesnt mean they are Witch. If this were so then wouldnt everyone be one?

So what is it that sets Witch apart from the rest of humanity?

arrghh noooo lol...oh Im so sorry I just don't get it...you are Witch but not witch..what does that mean?? OK if you practice "witchcraft" then you can either be or not be a witch..fine...but what I want to know is what actually makes you a Witch...what's the difference...there MUST be something....otherwise surely we are all the same

Hi this post went in after shade's when I meant it to go in before..so sorry if it seems disjointed.

but my question is the same as Shade's at the end...what is it that makes you Witch

ok Nature... not sure how Im gonna make this any plainer

Now you have to bare in mind that this is not strictly accurate, but Im trying to come up with a way to explain it.

Lets say you are born into a family here in the UK. They arent church goers as it were, they just.. go when they need to Births, Weddings.. Funerals. In the broad sense of the word, unless you take a different religion, and actively persue it, you are classed by all accounts as a christian, brought up in a christian country... there is a difference between being a christian and being a Christian... what? The matter of being born again. Being baptised seems to be the thingmost people seem to think is necessary..

I think its the same for Witch with regards to the Red Thread path. I am a witch. I consider myself a witch, so does everyone who knows me. But I am not a Witch in the Red Thread sense, I havent been awakened in their sense of the deffinition.

Is that clearer?

Hi Shadowdancer
Just trolled on lol i have read your earlier postings, and i feel its a real shame that the folks from Arddhu. have gone, as they have a lot to offer, I emailed The Magister, about the red thread, and he very kindly explained explained a little more to me.
He told me that the reason he did not post further information up on the red thread, was because like many of the other Arddhu teachings that had been made public there was a chance of it being stolen , and written into other peoples courses.

ah ok..so i can be born into it and not necessarily be it...I can practice it but not be it...but if I walk the path then I am it...ok but that still doesn't help me with what makes it different...or is there a difference?? are those who are wiccan witches still witch because they walk the path...I am thinking this is not what shade is saying. How does the awakening start...what do we do that helps or starts this process? I thank you Xalle for trying to explain, but I still think there are things that are much deeper that we have not begun to scratch the surface on yet...

wicca is not Witchcraft

[quote=natures spirit,Oct 20 2006, 06:22 PM]
[quote=Xalle,Oct 20 2006, 08:14 PM]ok Nature... not sure how Im gonna make

I think its the same for Witch with regards to the Red Thread path. I am a witch. I consider myself a witch, so does everyone who knows me. But I am not a Witch in the Red Thread sense, I havent been awakened in their sense of the deffinition.

Is that clearer?

[/quote]


Xalle that makes perfect sense! I wonder then how you become awakened then in terms of the definition - (Ravenings, I assume?) and who holds the Keys to that awakening? And how does the read thread achieve that? And where do the nine maidens come into it - if at all?

I hope shade would be able to maybe describe this a little further?

But is wicca witchcraft?

--

Jez

I said is it witchcraft, not is it Witchcraft...

So you don't think it is witchcraft or Witchcraft?

--

Jez

oh i beg your pardon
correct

Many paths use similar magikal methods to apply the craft, there are no huge secrets with methods o spell casting.
Witches from the same magikal family may all differ in their spell casting methods too, but they all hold somin in common.

Its the witch that makes the difference. Through process o proving your worth to hold certain keys, you become a witch.
The simple act of doing magik and practicing witchcraft, does not a witch make.

Rain

I have to say I think you are being deliberately obtuse.

Yes there is probably much below the surface that will not be revealed to you unless you choose ot walk their path. DEAL with that.

I would guess that the awakening is different for everyone, in the same way everyones path to paganisim is different.. its just about "feeling" that there is something else that you need ot explore.

Wicca??? where sdid that come from. Like I said before, ya wanna be a wiccan and a witch.. or a Wiccan and a witch... then feel free... but once again, unless you walk their path you wont be a Witch in their sense of the word. Same as most Wiccans will not accept you as a Wiccan unless you have been initiated. And I doubt very much that you could be a Wiccan and a Witch in their sense of the word as their Witch path would clash with being a Wiccan.

Good grief... its not rocket science.

Xalle, I agree with you
attempting to do 'magic' however it is spelled, or witchcraft does not make someone Witch.

Excuuuuuuse Me!! deliberatly obtuse???? sorry thought we were allowed to ask questions.

I am not deliberately tring to be obtuse, i am trying to understand what it is that makes you Witch as oppose to just going out and doing witchcraft. From the last thing that shade put it it seemed to indicate that there is a process involved and being born into a witch family or practising witchcraft doesn't automatically make you Witch. It is this process i am trying to understand and how it comes about within you or us...nobody on this forum has yet answered that question...not even you.

If you think I am being deliberately obtuse then right back at ya! Deal with that!!

and no, you are right...it's not rocket science...its witchcraft...something far more deep and profound!

Relax! It something we all get hot under the collar about at times, seems to be deep in our nature as witch (small w, lol). I have happily gone around in the past saying x y or z aren't witches, there is something in me that knows. These days I just let the magick decide. We all have doubts of ourself and others at times as well, whether we admit it or not. Magick is so lost to the world, even to those that say it isn't to them, that we easily fall into negativity and fights.

At time in this thread and a couple of the others, we have actually approached something and it has twitched a deep chord in some here. I suggest that that is what we all look, strive for - the sense of unconscious intuitive understanding.

By all means defend, react and so on, but let us try and keep perspective and come back in the next day or two in a more open mood, even if you feel you have lost a bit of face or ground eh?

Let us keep the flickering light growing. There has been too much hidden for too long. And for those that believe they are protecting it, let some of the paranoia go. Most here are sincere and would be welcomed in any true gathering of witches.

It is time for change.

Perhaps we can see this forum, or parts of it, as that, a ground where we can slowly approach a real understanding. Community is rare in the pagan world. It is not impossible. We could be starting somethng here, slowly. We have sisters (and the odd bro') of different traditions, and solitaries and hermits - all of magick - discussing our universal beliefs. Let the specifics be debated with care and respect but remember, nothing that is real of magick is able to be harmed by light, even shadow is strengthened when it is balanced.

The schisms between some of you, who started what, who stole what, are actually irrelevant except to those who did those actual deeds and they should answer. These are the 'magisters' and 'mothers', not the children of magick they teach. The elders that are meant to nurture, nourish and teach us. It is their imbalance that is carried on into the wrong place, as it is unhealed. I charge them with this.

The students, the seekers, and others watching and wanting from these discussions, should find they are still all witch before all else. And that is a power we do have and can share and be joyful in. Beloved Company.

The masters have held the 'keys' for too long, it is coming time for them to be freed.

jape

You are right Jape, I never came to this forum to start a fight, but to ask questions of those who just might know the answers. I resent being called obtuse for continuing my search for those answers. If Xalle "gets it" then good for her I am pleased, but she shouldn't dismiss those who don't quite understand all the concepts yet, quite so...well frankly..rudely, and I'm afraid that got my back up. Explanations are good, but don't patronise.

some excellent points here a forum is a place for diplomatic kindly debate,all are here to listen.debate and hold reasonably friendly discussions
running other folks beliefs down when you dont even know them personally aint on, I was simply stating a fact,based on much evidenc, yet i have loads of mates on all diferent paths

And Xelle we all love ya,and we all get hot under the collar towards samhain,sheep included

And as I have explained to you four times now, it is the difference between being a Wiccan and a wiccan, a cook and a chef etc etc. Red Thread call Witch someone who has walked their path. Its a title they give, a name... it could be that when you comeplete whatever 13 moon course with them that they have, witches at the end get called "One of the Great" or a "Pigwidgeon" but its not, the NOUN they use to discribe someone who has walked their path is Witch.

How do you get to be a Witch in their eyes? WALK THEIR PATH. Accept their learnings, follow their teachings.

If you are asking what those teachings are, they wont tell you. Its one for those who choose to join and agree to keep their secrecy.

And calling someone obtuse is not being patronising. Nor is it being insulting. Im stating what I believe to be a fact, in the midst of this debate, that I think that you are being deliberately awkward.

And calling someone obtuse is not being patronising. Nor is it being insulting. Im stating what I believe to be a fact, in the midst of this debate, that I think that you are being deliberately awkward.

[/quote]

Well frankly I find it insulting..but there you go...my opinion doesn't matter to you anyway so I'm sure you wont loose sleep over it.

If being deliberately awkward involves asking questions time and time again until the answer emerges then I guess I am. I personally feel that what I am doing is trying to remove the veils that hide something from me. I completely understand that they are not going to just reveal all their secrets to someone on a forum, that is not what this debate is about...if I ask something that they prefer to keep hidden then fine...say that..but if they can answer then great! I am not afraid to keep asking and making myself look "foolish"...perhaps it is those of us that do just that and keep plugging away, unafraid, who will eventually end up with the real keys and knowledge.

and thank you for taking the time to explain it 4 times..that is most gracious of you.

I really dont see it that way at all. You keep asking whats the difference between Witch and witch and you keep getting told. But for some reason, you persist with the question. It baffles me.



Quite right, ask the questions, keep at it, it is the only way to get the answers. But answers arnt knowledge, understanding the answers are.

I do understand your difference between Witch and witch..one has a capital W

But didn't you say to me on another thread that you have had discussions with Jape where you just didn't get where he was coming from...well then allow me that with your opinion.

I might seem as if I am asking the same question over and over, but then again you are giving the same reply over and over. If you really find it so tedious to keep explaining YOUR perception of what the differences are to me..then don't...let somebody else have a go. I might "get" what they are saying

If thats the limit of your perception on this then I dont think that theres going to be many will be able to help you grasp the concept. But sure, fire away.

Ok, so what exactly is it you don't understand? I've got a bit lost.

Oh Xalle, lighten up, it was said lightheartedly. Thanks for all the time you have spent responding to me, although I don't necessarily agree with you, it is appreciated.

Whats to agree with? Im like Tilia, I dont understand what it is you dont get.

You asked a question you were given an answer, there isnt something to agree or disagree with. You may not agree with their perception of what the Witch path is supposed to be, you may not agree with eveerything they believe and thats fine! But you cant disagree with what they define as a Witch, given they are not saying that you or anyone else isnt or cant be a witch of your own definition.

Hi.It appears the capital W is employed to distinguish 'ye olde witchcraft' from that of modern neo-pagan witchcraft or 'Wicca'.Little evidence can be found for a claimed 'Old Religion' existing alongside Christianity and there is no evidence that the claims,or practices of todays organised groups pre-date 1949.It has been well attested elsewhere that Wicca did not exist before Gerald Gardner constructed it.All arguements aimed at proving otherwise,have been,will be untenable an rather embarrasing.
Equally,no evidence is currently available to suggest any continuance of an 'old' witchcraft.For the most part the idea that witches formed covens,secret groups where within an oral tradition was maintained,practised and passed down by way of any bloodline or family link,is a relatively modern notion.
Most sources for the claims can be traced to depository evidences extracted from the so-called Witch Trials.Yet even these have been elaborated upon in order to affix the ideologies onto a framework of revivalism/reconstruction.
I have looked over some of the items relevant to this issue and can find here nothing outside the pattern which is so familiar.
There is nothing wrong with wishful thinking and whilst I cannot accept the claims beyond evidence,I concede these ideas form part of a new religious belief system and I am content with that.
Hope this helps.

I have to disagree with you there Wotan.

Its a little hard for you to fully grasp where this debate has risen from as all the posts regarding this particular group were removed so unfortunately you are at a bit of a disadvantage. That said, the Red Thread group, claim the term "Witch" as a noun to describe someone who has joined their family and walks their path.

Secondly. witchcraft is an oral tradition.



Eh.. I would debate that lack of continuance of an old tradition. Suffice it to say I know where my tradition has come from and would like to point out that not all families are based on blood, and THAT is one of the points that Shade (the Red Thread) was quite clear on making.