I hope nobody minds, I have x-posted this from another forum I belong to as I would be interested in the perspective of members here:

Okay call me an old killjoy if you must, but I really can't get into the spirit of Samhain and part of it is because of the arbitrary and in my opinion totally incorrect date. Let me explain:

The current calendar as we perceive it wasn't adopted until the mid to late part of the 18th century, so if we take this as an agricultural celebration then then end of October as the majority of our forebears would have seen doesn't happen this year until about the 11th/12th of November our time. In addition to this, the idea behind the celebration was the slaughter of those livestock which wouldn't make it through the winter; this would have been done with the first frosts and most likely around the full moon, it would have been a long and arduous task so a clear night under a full moon would have been the perfect time, so this year we would be looking at it being around the 4th.

From a magical perspective, looking at the concept of ancestor worship and the thinning of the veil, then the nearest new moon might have been more appropriate (if there ever were such practices) which would put the celebration this year at around the 19th/20th of November.

So does anybody do the dates with a more historical perspective in mind, do you feel it makes a difference to your workings, or are most people happy with an arbitrary date.

I know this doesn't answer the question, but I think you've got that slightly wrong 31st October by the Julian calander (of which they speak) is actually earlier, not later. It would be something like 18th October acording to this online calculator: http://www.geocities.com/atkuala/astro/cal_conversion.html

People were up in arms because they thought they'd lost a week of their lives, seriously caused trouble for the Pope who suggested it.

Best wishes,

Marion.

Nope I am sorry I believe you are incorrect.



from: http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/calendar/

It wasn't adopted iirc by england until about 1750 something by which time we had to actually jump 11 days instead of the previously calculated ten. So for example our October the 4th became October the 16th.

This is why you still see discrepancy to this day in some of the orthodox churches (who only partially adhered to the reform) that celebrate Christmas and 12th night at a later date.

And, to answer your question, I actually wrote an article looking at some local folklore (err, linking in with another post someone's made recently - just browsing through) from my home village, which is known for it's witches and jiggery pokery.

They rededicated the local church from a male to a female saint who has two saint days. The first is 21st June, making her a Solstice icon by the modern Christian calendar, but the other one appears to be later in the year. I found a thesis in the records library that cited references to villagers holding her fete day on October 24th, or the 1st Sunday after 17th October.

Interesting correlation there for a Samhain festival.

I'm about to write another article (time permitting) regarding the concept of time in ethnographics. When asked the year, I’d hazard pretty much everyone here would reply '2006' as a matter of course, but as you say, time is very subjective. In our language we have three tenses, some have five, some have none, which again has a strong psycho-linguistic affect on our concept of time and our place within time. Aboriginal dreamtime is born of a culture without time - often the state many magicians strive to attain in their work. A dreamstate (yes, for those who know me better, still banging on about that ).

'tis fascinating stuff.

Best wishes,

Marion.

Ah, interesting stuff. Thanks for that. I shall go have a read.

Best wishes,

Marion.

Sorry, I’m still struggling with this...



1752 according to the source you've quoted (bottom of paragraph beginning 'The Gregorian calendar was proclaimed...')

But if we came forward by 11 days, that means that the Julian date is behind our present one, not in front, so the end of the Gregorian October cannot be ahead of it in November? Hence, 31st October, Samhain, is 18th October, not 11th November...?

Sorry, please do correct me. I'm totally dipsypraxic and numbers are not my forte at all so if I am missing something just clout me 'bout the head with a brick or summat

Best wishes,

Marion.

Possibly but doesn't really fit with Samhain as we know it, the 24th would nominally make it around about the 14th via the old calendar. MY biggest concern is that people often try and find things and connections that aren't always there and whilst I agree it is all very fascinating, and acquiesce that early Christians probably adopted certain saints days to coincide with earlier more pagan festivals, the festivals we have are not always evidence.

For instance I could easily say that perhap your earlier christian saint might have been Posiedon or Zeus which they then re-designated to a female saint to relieve last vestiges -



Heh but seeing as your from cardiff that might be clutching at straws can you see my point though. I suppose that is why I get a bit concerned about things like adopting arbitary dates Grumpy old reclaimer me I reckon

Oh. I get it Our 31st is their 18th but their 31st is our 11th.

With you now

No you have it correct, we use the gregorian calendar the old calendar was julian, the julian date for today would be something like the 20th/21st. Hmm is that any clearer. My sis is totally dyspraxic and dyslexic and discalculic and can appreciate how awkward it is.

So say we were operating on the old calendar now, today and we were to change over we would have to add 10/11 days. So christams wouldn't happen until new year, see what I am getting at?

If not PM me, I will try and find another way to explain

Naimh
xXx



Yay

Yeah, but we are talking about peasants here mate, most couldn't spell their own name yet alone calculate a calendar that'd been out of date for 200 years. It's most likely a case of local folklore and the feast days of spirits and festivals of local gods that fall into that time of year. I think the rigorous adherence to dates we have today is probably quite a new thing. Standardisation came with agriculture and industry mostly. Before that, around the time some of these traditions were forming, it's unlikely that one half of the country would be entirely sure what the other half was doing, so you get highly topographical events.



Actually, i'm English luv, jumping to a few conclusions of your own there

But anyway, welcome aboard. Will continue this soon hopefully. I'm off to the woods now.

Everyone enjoy their evening.

Marion.

Hmm what time frame are we looking at? There is considerable research about that concurs that as early as the 14th/15th century certain members of the village peasants would have had the ability to read and write and calculate time.



Lol not really your location said cardiff and you mentioned your home village, I assumed a couple of things nothing more



You too I look forward to hearing more about your article, lol coz I don't make my trek to the woods until the 4th hehehehehe (full moon nearest old samhain)

Enjoyed that debate but am not really qualified enough to argue one way or t'other, but to go back to the original question, I'm happy enough with celebrating on the 31st. I like the notion of one month ending and the other one beginning and them being cutting off points for end of summer, beginning of winter. Even if this year's been a bit all over the place with temperature etc. Though I have to say that yesterday (31st) was the first real nip I felt so I was happy enough to go along with the summer's end yesterday. I always felt that November was the start of real autumn/winter anyway, so it makes sense to me.

At the end of the day, I am a modern, (sub)urban pagan, and I celebrate the way that the festivals mean to me - which after all is how the ancients would have most likely celebrated themselves. I'm interested in combining the old with the modern as I see it as the only way that paganism will progress, grow, and move forward.

So I'm happy with an arbitrary date.

I'm the same really, I am a modern pagan, its not so much that I wouldn't celebrate at the same times of year as the ancients its more a case of its more relevant for me to celebrate at the times that I do here and now. I don't really do full rituals and such on the main festivals preferring a more low key introspection on the whole, and that can be done at any time. It is a case of its more convenient in modern society to have a set date on which to celebrate.

I like to tie things in with what the world at large is doing. I'm a decidedly solitary type so joining in with community events at xmas, halloween, easter, harvest fair etc is nice for me.

Take last night, for example, thinking about dead friends and family can be quite emotionally draining so half a dozen mad kids diving into your living room telling bad jokes every 10 minutes is quite a wee tonic for the soul. Their vitality puts your losses in perspective - life goes on.

I suppose I don't have to think about death but it kind of comes naturally at this time of year and if I was to dwell on it every time it popped into my head I'd be bloody miserable. On the other hand pushing those emotions away is also unhealthy so I find it quite cathartic to set one night aside to just give in to it and let the tears flow...

Rambling a bit, sorry...

I don't tend to go off dates for stuff anymore because I don't think calendar dates are accurate now for what's actually going on around us because of climate change.

I do my celebrating when it 'feels' right for me to do so.

I second that, Elswyth. To me the year ends with the Winter Solistice, in all good old wisdom on which stone circles were based.

on the whole julian calendar/11 days thing..

this puts samhain, the 'festival of the dead' on the 11 of nov... a day we mark in britain as REMEMBERANCE DAY. WW 1 'officially ended' on the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month

love is the law..

LUMI

here is a table that compares old/new calender dates.

dav

I find that the current date for Samhain is simply convenient. And as Pomona said so excellently, for us modern pagans who are not slaughtering animals by moonlight, it works.

Obviously, were I to take up livestock farming in a big way I might change my mind on this

as a celtic pagan, samhain is the most important time for me but like elswyth i celebrate it when i feel it is right for me...i shall be having my own ritual this weekend (full moon ) and also because it is close to the date when both my mother and father passed away.