As some may have gathered I am at a stage of my spiritual joureny where I am trying to reconcile my christian faith with my innate paganness (is that a word?!)
Am i chasing an illusion or is there a possible path here?

Hello Eagledance,
to try to answer your deliberation is a very difficult thing as well all hold very wide views about such. Paganism encompases such an enormaty of belief systems, it is a term used to derive anything not seen as orthodox in this modern world. Christianity can also claim a similar concept in that it also encompases many other fractions. To fight with yourself over what you should be accepting of makes the whole thing a bit of a mokery. I believe you should try to identify with what you are and what you believe and then examine the beliefs you have been indoctirined into and pull away at the fluff that surround them and see what you are left with

this sounds so vague, even to me, but it is the way to go, I wish you luck with your endeavours xx

Hey hon, thanks for starting the new thread

Well, as I've said before, as one who's been there, I don't believe you can be both Pagan AND Christian. And I say this as someone who for a fair few years tried it but it made me really unhappy After many years of soul-searching I reached an inevitable truth (so far as I see it).

If one accepts the Father in the Trinity as being "the Divine", then the Bible is quite clear. I'm paraphrasing very slightly but if I recall correctly the verse says "I am the Way, the Truth and the Light. No-one gets to the Father except through Me". IE, through Jesus. To be a Christian you have to accept Jesus as your saviour and with that acceptance comes the explicit belief that your path to the Father will be through Him.

The Bible (OT) does mention other Gods (I'm thinking of Baal in Exodus with Moses etc) so there is an acceptance that there are other Gods, as there is in the Commandments (Thou Shalt Have No Other Gods Before Me) .

The belief in "one divinity" etc is a neo-Pagan belief. Our pre-Christian ancestors had no concept of this and there was absolutely no question of there being one homogenized concept of deity, the Gods were absolutely distinct and discrete.

Either way (polytheism or monotheism), so far as the Bible goes, that's it. No ifs, buts, or work-rounds, it's pretty clear. If you're a Christian you have to believe in Jesus and Jehovah. Anything else is idolatrous, blasphemous and basically just not on. You cannot have it both ways, the Bible is absolutely clear.

It's all very well saying that you don't believe in every bit of the Bible, but then, which bits do you pick and which bits do you leave out? And do you leave the bits out that are the "core" beliefs?

It's possible, I think, to do your God's work in the natural world, to see his hand in everything, and strive to do his bidding to preserve his handiwork. To admire the wonder of the world you believe he created, the creatures therein, to take care of them as was prescribed in Genesis etc. And to still believe utterly in Jesus as your saviour.

But that doesn't make your beliefs Pagan.

I'm sorry, but I honestly and utterly believe, from personal experience, that Paganism and Christianity are parallell lines and they can definitely, and should definitely, get on together, but the beliefs are as opposite as, say Judaism and Shintoism.

I don't envy you Eagledance. I've been there, many of us have here, and with peer pressure, society etc, it's a tough and rending admission to make. I don't even say it is a decision, because being Pagan isn't a decision, it's an acceptance. But it doesn't mean that everyone else accepts it. Unfortunately.

steping away from the comfort o your god is a bugger....its up to you an your faith an beliefs.

How much do you trust your own judgment?

Tis to easy to sit on the fence an hedge your bets...but do what you will. , its up to you at end o day.

you only have yourself to reconsile against...but you make sure you can back it up to yourself as real...or it mean jack shit

Rain

Sorry Eagledance, even if you summed up "God" in terms of the "Great Spirit" or "Creator" it does not share the idea of the "original sin" rather must understand the cosmic cycles in the sense of evolution. There are no absolutes in this concept let alone perfection other than physical law. There may be prophets, but they are a very humble breed who may be honoured but never sanctified. Nature is ambivalent in testing out its various forms of realization.

Well modern xtainity seems to fit in with whatever is in fashion or alternatively will have them labelled negatively. So despite the clear directives in the Bible regarding homosexuals they now have priests that are gay. So, I guess a pagan xtain is the next thing to come along.. just as we have xtain witches. (Oh let me be clear I couldn't give a flying pig if someone is homosexual or not and personally don't see why it should stop one from being a priest EXCEPT the Bible makes it very clear that God ain't that fond of gay people)

I myself couldn't care less if xtain's want to try and incorporate paganism and xtainity together more... I do fail to see how that can be done in line with clear directives in the Bible. And an appreciation of the nature and a sense of sacredness, while often quoted as signs of a pagany nature, aren't really.. many people feel an infinity with nature, love it and enjoy spending time in the wilds or trying to save the parts from destruction etc etc.. and while we may grin and say they have pagan traits... loving nature and enjoying being amongst nature doens't make a person pagan.

And if you're a xtain you believe God created the world, HE created nature, it is his design. Believing that doens't take away the sacredness of nature, after all it's divine, and you can choose to worship your God through the appreciation of his design... that still does not make you pagan.

So what makes a person pagan? Kinda tough really to say as Paganism isn't actually a spirituality or religion... for instance I say I'm pagan for ease, really though I am a witch. Yes I do have a sense of the sacredness of nature, an affinity for her and appreciation and love. I also sense the spirits / gods or whatever you want to call them, that live in the land and while I have a respect I dont' go out of my way to honour or worship any... nor have I noticed any tapping on my shoulder from any diety saying "Hey up". I don't particularly celebrate festivals, the ones I am fond of I'll nod at and make a bit of an effort.. I suppose because I don't feel I need to do ritual and festivals to be "pagan".. it is what I am.. and it's that simple and that complicated. Paganism to me is a state of being, it's how you think, the beliefs you hold, how you view the world as a whole, the way you conduct yourself, the morals and ethics that you develop.. I guess there's a great deal of individualism encompassed in it too.

(Where's Coz when ya need him...)

I think it really does depend on how you define Pagan. I think in some ways it depends what path of Christianity you refer too as well, they are both in a way umbrella terms, there are Anglican Christians, Catholic, Methodist, baptist, Jehovah's Witness, Mormon, to name a few there are probably more, and each one has different beliefs a different way of viewing Christian doctrine.

I think as the first reply said you need to look inside yourself and see what you believe and follow that. work out what you understand Pagan to mean and what Christianity means to you and it may well be that for you the two are very similar in ways. For a large majority who take the bible literally then they are wholly incompatible. Some examples of why have been given above.

It's something that has had me stumped for a long time really is your question because of my own experiences, I know a few Christians (Anglican) who could be classed as having very strong pagan leanings and in fact would be classed as such by some other Christians or maybe they would be classed as Heretical...

Hello Eagledance

As others have said, this is a very difficult position for you to be in. Change is usually difficult. But exciting too perhaps?

I'm thinking something like - would it help to think or look into what christianity is based on? And further to think about where did the contents of the bible really come from? What bits of memories from earlier times set the basis for it? Is it like other mythology and folklore - contains remnants and rejiggings of history? and a lot of inaccuracies and things skewed by the writers? So is it like trying to chuck out the rubbish and get back to the truths that christianity was stuck on top of?

The most difficult aspects of this dilema are to do with labels and the response of respective faith communities to what you say about your beliefs.

In the Christian community (and as has already been indicated, that is a very diverse community with a wide variety of interpretations of the tenets of their faith) there will be many who will point to the concept of 'One true God' and 'No-one comes to the Father but through me' or something like that, and will be concerned about compromising the faith with consideration of other deities. Should that not be an element of what you say about your beliefs they may well bring up various scriptural passages about frowned upon practises such as methods of divination, magic and the like. Mostly from the Old Testament, and mostly aimed at the Israelites as they developed their own 'God given' territory. There is much in the bible that can be interpreted in ways that would preclude the possibility of combining Pagan and Christian beliefs.

Within the Pagan community there is much animosity towards Christianity. Mainly due to the behaviour of followers of Christianity. But that, in turn creates an attitude that can be derogatory about people who wish to combine elements of Christianity and Paganism.

BUT the important thing about spirituality and belief is that u;timately it comes down to subjective feelings, beliefs, experiences. It is often said 'whatever works for you' about people whose beliefs differ from our own. I wonder how much people have actually thought about that in terms of the nature of the divine and our very human interaction with the divine is concerned. I think it is certainly something people should consider.

This is a topic that has come up a few times over at the Moot. You might want to take a look through some of the threads over there to see what some of our Christian friends have had to say on the matter too.

BB

Mike

From my point of view, if you feel that you are drifting towards paganism and away from christianity then go with how your inner self is feeling. Do what feels right to you. If that is a realisation that you are a Christian and it makes your faith stronger or gives you a better understanding of god having flirted with paganism then thats good. If it is a realisation that Christianity holds less of the ansewers to life than you thought and that some form of paganism makes sense of the world: then go with it. You have to go with what makes your soul happy and finding that out isn't always a pain free discovery.

".... all the gods are one god, and all the goddesses are one goddess, and there is one initiator? Do you not know that at the dawn of manifestation the gods wove the web of creation between the poles of the pairs of opposites, active and passive, positive and negative, and that all things are these two things in different ways and upon different levels, even priests and priestesses....'"
-DION FORTUNE

I'm going to stick my neck out here and say i DO think people can be xtian/pagan. within certian areas of the trad craft there's a concept called 'Dual Observance' wherein things like xtian saints are seen as avatars of the old gods. then you have some Druidic traditions that incorporate xtian stuff, admittedly not historically accurate- but whose counting?

i fully understand why many pagans get so worked up over xtian upbringings etc- xtianity has delievered us a 'toxic, polluted, over-populated planet', its dogmas have enabled man to rape the planet for profit,encouraged the subjegation of women and caused general unhappiness for thousands of years.

the pagan community and others are rightly very suspicious of xtianity. but if we could seperate the bullshit of organised religion from people's religous experiences we would prob find some similarities between both traditions.
the recent 'da vinci' thing has meant there's now a huge pile of books detailing the early church ,and the religions that came before it, written in a very mainstream (ie accessable to yr grandmother) way. whatever you think of dan brown's story (and i think its bilge) he's done a great service to the pagan community by getting people interested in the origins of xtianity.

in the end it doesnt matter...pagan, christian, druid..are all labels.
a close friend of mine was diagnosed schizophrenic in the 80's because he had 'christ consciuosness' experiences , he learnt that there was a lot of stuff that didnt 'match up' to the picture of 'christ' as given by the church. these days most pagans would take him as a 'fluffy new ager' but i can tell you he's more open-minded than most pagans OR xtians. he would. in no way, describe himself as 'pagan' or anything of the sort- but by most of the discussions we have you wouldnt think that. i think there are things which underlie all religions/traditions, if you can connect to that you shouldn't have much trouble.

i suppose i'm trying to say...TRUST your inner intuitions, there ARE bits of xtianity that are great and no-one would disagree with them (dont murder, feed the hungry etc). just make sure you throw out all the anti-sex garbage

RAMBLE ENDS!!

LUMI

I think that it can be done.

First of all, you have to clear away the labels and the dogma, and be ready to NOT take the Bible as anything more than guidance, instead of the absolute word of truth.

If you are pagan, and happen to take Jesus as your personal deity, it may be a little strange, but not as strange as some deity combinations I've heard about.

Go for it! If it doesn't work for you, no doubt you'll find a better way of following your path.

Listen to your heart, and don't let people tell you what to do or what to believe (myself included!).

With love,

As far as picking and choosing bits of the Bible goes - all Christians do that all the time, so there's no obstacle there.

Rudolph Steiner's anthroposophy, which I was involved with for some years, presents a Christian view of the world that embraces the concepts of reincarnation, the four elements, angels and elemental beings. These are not things your fundamentalist Christian would go along with comfortably, but they work within anthroposophy alongside a Christ-centred view of things.

I think if Christ becomes real for you as a figure of perfect love, you can continue with that relationship even if you discard the guilt and the original sin and the hellfire or whatever some Christians see as essential.

I once did a shamanic journey to meet my guide in the upper world, and when I found my guide it was in the shape of a bishop, and then I realised it was really the Christ. Of course all this is subjective, but the point is that I met with Christian symbology within a pagan framework and it worked for me. There wasn't any 'Sorry love, you shouldn't be here, you should be in Church' - the Christ I know doesn't operate like that. He's a lot more tolerant than some people make out. He says, 'If you want to rattle, you go ahead - and Skunk is one of my messengers anyway' - I feel this to be true in the centre of my being, and that's all any of us can go by.

At the end of Brian Bates' book, 'The Wayh of Wyrd', I seem to remember some similar coclusion being reached - that fusion is possible.

Short answer (and my opinion) is no.

I don't see Christianity as being a pick n mix kind of religion, I see it as being scriptural (and accept that some of them interpret Scripture differently from others). There's nothing in their writings that allow Christians to worship other divinities as well, and plenty that specifically forbids it.

If you're drawn to Paganism, then be brave and take the leap, the rewards far outweigh the risks

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

Its hard to step away from whats considered to be normal, its not easy to leave the comfort of the pack to step outside. But in my opinion to try and step part way doesnt work, is it possible that the illusion you are chasing is to stand both inside conformity and outside at the same time?

A number of years ago now I first found myself with a growing interest in witchcraft, and at that time was quite a devout xtian. As my interest in witchcraft grew, and as I learnt and begun to understand witchcraft, begun to understand the wider concepts of paganism I found myself caught between two worlds, xtian and pagan, and it was a difficult time for me, and for a while saw myself as a xtain witch (there are some groups out there). However gradually as I learnt and began to understand more of the world of pagans I found myself drawn more and more into that world, and as my beliefs grew stronger for the pagan world, slowly, but surely my beliefs, those things I had held as truths for over 50 years suddenly were fading from me, then one day it dawned on me that I no longer believed in a xtian world but had stepped into a pagan world. So change doesnt happen overnight, but change I did, realising that I had followed my heart, and that I was firmly in a pagan world and whats more for me at least was meant to be so. Follow your heart, see where it leads you.

I agree with you - no, they don't mix. Having said that, I disagree when you say xianity isn't a pick'n'mix religion! They took pagan festivals and made them xian - Easter, Xmas, Samhain etc. etc. They took their pick, and mixed in the bits they decided could be incorporated as theirs under a thin disguise. They tore down sacred sites and built churches over them. Oh - and lets not forget the burial on unhallowed ground of unbaptised babied etc. etc. And the fact that these innocent wee souls are condemned to Purgatory - although I believe this was under review and may have been changed.
Worse, as we all know, there is implicit in xianity the requirement to follow scripture. "Thou shall not suffer a witch to live." This is VERY clear.
If anyone feels a need to combine a "recognised" [sic] faith with paganism (of any sort) I would suggest they opt for Hinduism. It comes closest in many ways!

Hmmmm...

If I am right, being a christian is about believing that through Christ you find God? That provided that you accept him as the "way" and accept "God" as the only god, then your Christian obligations are met.

I dont see why that has to be mutually exclusive from Paganism. I mean, the thing about Paganism is that like christianity there are many forms. From those who believe in one god to those who believe in many to those who believe in none. What the difference between a prayer and a spell? Whats the difference in seeing nature as something that "your" god created as opposed to another god? The bible is the word of "God" because man says so, no other reason. But if I understand correctly, letting Christ into your heart (as they say) is about a blinding truth being realised. That you know christ, that you become aware of him in an very tangible way.

If thats the case, then worship him and your god how you see fit. Accept that he made the world and the animals, or at the very least, gave the primordial ooze the nudge in the direction it needed to start evolving... and if he made the world and the animals and you accept that prayer works (which is JUST like a spell) then accept that he put that into the world too.

This maybe sounds a bit daft. But ask Christ. Many of us here when looking for an answer to something will contact their gods, will communicate in soem way with them, do that, ask him yourself. Is the worship of God through nature and the seasons acceptable? I cant see why it wouldnt be. But Im not sure that makes is Paganism.. I think it make it new age Christianity.

I think what you are asking is quite difficult, I have been there and tried, but found my whole world view had shifted.

Perhaps the most famous person to have tried this and succeeded is the Catholic Priest Matthew Fox, a member of the Dominican Order for 24 years

http://www.matthewfox.org/sys-tmpl/htmlpage20/

He is the one who rejected the idea of original sin, taught original blessing, led the way in Christian Creation Spirituality and networked widely with pagans in the USA

His writings and those of people like Thomas Berry clearly touch a lot of people who feel that traditional Christianity just does not work.

However, just to highlight the difficulty, he was silenced by Cardinal Ratzinger and expelled from the Dominican Order because of his "heretical" writings.

Of course someone like Matthew Fox was trying to do this from the heart of the Catholic establishment and it came down on him like a ton of bricks.

Whether you can make it succeed depends on your personal determination to make it do so and the kind of church you belong to. Follow your heart always.

I like pick and mix sweeties ta

Yeah - especially the stripey red and black ones - "Satan's balls" I think they were called? It's so long ago, my memory fades...

I know at least three other people who I would label 'Christian Pagan', so yes, it can be done.

But of course, while Pagans can have a take on whether we feel that someone falls within the definition of "Pagan", the only people who can give a ruling on whether someone is a "Christian" are Christians - I certainly don't think it's my business to say what Christianity allows.

I'm not sure whether there are any Christian denominations who would allow this kind of dual allegiance.

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

May I suggest you read some Ronald Sutton.. oh.. and the "not suffer a witch to live".. is a translation that's been mangled over the years.. I do believe it says something quite different in the orginal hebrew.. although I've forgotten what now.. I'm sure someone will be able to jump in and relieve my poor nappy head of trying to remember.............

Suffer a poisioner not to live

Nope. It IS suffer a witch not to live. The confusion comes from a translation from the hebrew into the greek. But if you look at the original hebrew it is definitely witch. However, take a moment to consider cultural approaches. In hebrew culture, when someone is shunned from the community it is as though they symbolically die. The relatives tear at their clothes and mourn the death of the one who is shunned. Physical death? I don't think that was the intention. Shunning and deprivation of livelihood is much more in keeping. If the hebrew text had intended witches to be killed it would have stated how, probably by stoning to death as that seems to have been the most popular way of doing the deed. But the text didn't.

Funnily enough, if you've been a Christian and you become a Pagan you're likely to be shunned by the Christian community. Well they might also shout hellfire and damnation at you. But some Christians can become very excitable at the slightest of things. Poor souls.

BB

Mike

Following the teachings of christ " love one another et al" are a lot different to following the teachings of the organisation.

Not that i do, i think it is possible to be a pagan and a follower of the christ.

Ah ok.. well I knew there was something about that line that isn't quite as clear cut as it appears.. lol.

Although I thought it was something along the lines that witch in hebrew means something different to what it does to us today... really can't remember tho.. nor can I remember where I saw the info.

Dear Evermorelong,



I think that's the answer to Eagledance's question. If religion is viewed as a matter of obedience to the rules of a particular social institution, in this case one of the major Christian Churches, then it would be rather hard to be both a Christian and a Pagan at the same time. Of course some of the minor (formerly) Christian Churches - Unitarians, Quakers and the like - would probably welcome you with open arms, and good for them.

On the other hand, if you see religion as a matter of honouring a particular deity or deities as your heart, experience, and conscience determine, and don't give two hoots whether it accords with the rules of particular social institutions or not, then there's no problem. Or at least no spiritual problem . Dedicated people may belong to deities, but deities do not belong to people and it's a bit impertinent for mortals to seek to dictate how, or by whom, the Gods should be honoured.

BB,

John Macintyre

WHICH OF US SHOULD READ SUTTON - OR IS THIS FOR BOTH FFRED C. AND MYSELF? AND WHY?

But why, Sheepy - why? Did one of the silver haired ones frighten you when you were little? Did they wave their zimmers at you in a threatening manner whilst whistling Vera Lynn airs?

Do you mean Ronald Hutton?

No need to shout hon

Think Very might mean Ronald Hutton (hon, you can correct me if I'm wrong )

He's written some very well researched and well regarded books about the REAL origins of paganism and neo-paganism in Britain today. Much of his research effectively debunks the idea that the Christians "stole" pagan beliefs and in fact, the earliest instances of some of the beliefs we hold as being authentically Pagan do not actually have any recorded instance until mediaeval times, sometimes quite late on in that period. And sometimes even later than that. Which does not mean necessarily to say that the practices, holidays, beliefs are NOT pagan, just that proof of them being Pagan is very difficult to establish.

As for who ought to read them, personally, I think they're a must for all serious Pagans.

pagan religions of the ancient british isles
triumph of the moon
Links to his best. Worth looking at the links just for the reviews

I did indeed mean Ronald Hutton.. darn nappy head.. cheers Pomona.

I've seen a discussion that rendered it "Thou shalt report an unlicenced herbalist to the appropriate authorities"

Not sure that that's how Matthew Hopkins understood it though!

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

Well that isn't exactly hard to do though. Think about the comments concerning trad craft, geography, history and culture. Also think about all that from the perspective of those who aren't practitioners of said craft. The big problem for the Israelites (and they really weren't very good at following the rules they were given. It's all there in the bible how God kept having to smack them about the head to get them to tow the party line. ) is that quite often they wuold turn to the local 'witch' with their problems if the local Rabbi wouldn't help them out. As the local Rabbis were often more interested in their rites and stuff they weren't really accessible to help out in the mundane things like 'She stole my husband' or 'He nicked my goat'. The general concensus I've got from Christians who have really studied passages such as Exodus 22:18 bit is that it was designed to put a stop to that trend and all the accompanying practises that were just a tad too close to a spiritual and social divergence for the comfort of the Rabbis.

BB

Mike

Eagle dance, I've quoted elsewhere, but think you should read about the Gnostics and what they thought about Jesus and John the Baptist etc.
They saw them as part of an ongoing basically pagan beleif system. This included women as equal periestesses to the men and sometimes in higher regard.
It was the later Roman church that changed things to becom masculine and to add the resurrection etc. Dont forget, the Romans beleived in a dying/rising god so this had to be incorportated into any religion that rome sought to use.
Anyway, i put full idea in other post by Dark Rose (I hope lol)!
If you want more info, PM me. I was where you are.

Tree xx

Just browsing, in from work, bliss - then horrors! Discovered that to "shout" in forum-speak must mean using capital letters? Oops, buggrit - sorry Pomona! Me in my blissful ignorance left caps lock on and was too idle to change to lower case. I am familiar with Hutton's writings; interesting, well researched, thought- provoking.
Might I also recommend Peter Redgrove?

I think it can be done. I know two people who were in the same difficult situation as you and ended up being a Pagan but now and then asking God to "forgive them if they are wrong as we are only ignorant humans".

It may seem a round-about solution but I really think it is possible.

Have a go and see what it fees like. In the end it's down to you and I'm sure you will make the right decision. Do what you feel is right and have confidence, because if you are wrong then, lame as it may sound, you weren't to know.

Life is full of mysteries and so much is hidden from us. Mistakes are there to be made, we live and learn.

Good luck!

Caruma

Oh yes i know the joys of this sort of dilema.

On the one hand I love and adore a number of greek gods and on the other hand I got swept away by the beauty and passion of the beloved of Rumi's poetry (A mystical perception of the islamic path).

All I can say is trying to balance pagan beliefs with a monothaistic religion such as christainity is difficult but I think it can be done. God for me is transcendental, loving, firey and passionate and I have no problems with him/her having been percieved in many different ways and as many different beings:

"O Marvel! a garden amidst the flames.
My heart has become capable of every form:
it is a pasture for gazelles and a convent for Christian monks,
and a temple for idols and the pilgrim's Kaa'ba,
and the tables of the Torah and the book of the Quran.
I follow the religion of Love: whatever way Love's camels take,
that is my religion and my faith."-Ibn al-Arabi

I know two people who were in the same difficult situation as you and ended up being a Pagan but now and then asking God to "forgive them if they are wrong as we are only ignorant humans".


To me that is playing at paganism! The attitude of "I'll be pagan but in the end I'll repent, God will forgive so what does it matter?"
but then in MY opinion, pagan christians are about as valid as Celtic Wiccans!

May I just add to my earlier comment?

The reason you are having so much trouble reconciling your beliefs is that you think too much. Christianity is for mindless sheep who want to be led to where they feel comfortable and safe. If that is you then stay a christian and stop thinking! My feeling however is that you think too much for christianity to feel right for you. You are too open to new spiritual paths. So you should either accept that you are a heretic and start your own denomination of nature loving christianity; or open your mind just a degree further and become fully pagan.

I have known people with this problem. It can be a difficult situation. Of course, some do try to continue to be a Christian while also taking up Pagan practices. At first thought, it is perfectly natural to think of this as a possibility. However, to any thinking individual, it becomes evident that such a middle path is really a trap.

There are many reasons why it is not logical to try to combine these two strongly conflicting religions into one personal observance. The main problem is the impossible task of accommodating directly conflicting fundamental beliefs, as well as so many other pesky problems.

You must decide which way of life you really want. In time, things will become clear to you. When the time is right, select the one path that is the one true path for you. Then travel on that path with your chin held high and with a happy heart.

Well looking into the validity of "Celtic wiccans" and "Christo Pagans" led me to discover this link.

http://www.clannada.org/wicca.php

But i'm not sure what I think about it either.

So i know that some folk don't belive in celtic wicca - does that leave me out in the cold as a Pagan? Am i a pagan?

Whilst am trying to find my own path this thread it a good one. i hope that you find what it is you are looking for.

The point about gnosticism is a good one and is something i've read of in the past.

As for me am still confused so all help welcome at the stirling moot!

BB elbee

I checked out the site you gave and was soooo pleased to discover, for once, a Celtic type site which actually has an academic slant, as opposed to one catering to popular culture. One fly in the otherwise soothing ointment though - the writers use the American term of "mom" which fairly sets the teeth on edge!

Nonetheless, I don't think any of this addresses the Eagle's initial question - how to reconcile Xianity with belief in paganism. Which I STILL believe is totally impossible, given the bible's strict and very clear directions on the subject!

From what I can gather, the basis of christianity is that we are all tainted by original sin and and the only way to clense ourselves from this (as well of the sins of our lives) and avoid going to hell is to accept Jesus as our saviour, as he died to absolve us from sin. Once we do this everything will be fine.

The concept of "sin" is, as far as I know, a completley christian one, and not a pagan one. Therefore if you feel you need to be delivered from sin then you are probably christian, and if not you're probably not. This, however, doesn't stop you from recognising and worshiping/honouring Jesus, in fact other religions, including islam, recognise him as a figure, and also doesn't stop you from worshiping the christian god or recognising the trinity. However, this doesn't make you christian. By the very nature of the paths, I think it's much easier to be a pagan with christian elements than a christian with pagan elements.

At the end of the day you should do what feels right and not worry too much about what you're calling it. I know it's hard, but sometimes the only way to do it is by instinct.

Kristofski x

EDIT: This reminds me of a thing I saw a couple of years ago around christmas time which was a priest (or something similar) talking about the story of Jesus and trying to get to the "real" jesus and work out "what really happened". In the end he stated that there had been absolutely no previous stories of people coming back to life, therefore the only possible reason that it is written as part of his life is that is literally, physically really happened. I couldn't help thinking, what about the folk tales of green gods of the seasons and so forth? They died and were resurected every year! I don't know the timescales of these in relation to Jesus but it definately seems like the idea of rebirth is part of the world anyway, and so in my opinion what he said was quite incorrect.
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Hi Eagledance
You've had some thought provoking responses to your topic and as a recent convert fron xtianity myself I have struggled with the same issues for some time now. I wonder if you have come across a set of books by Neale Donald Walsch called Conversations With God ( an uncommon dialogue) ? Extraordinary books which might help you.
Blessings

I can't see how. Christian means believing in a set of things that you won't really find in many pagan paths from who created the world to what fact that we are born with sin and christ died to save us etc etc etc I mean if you believe that then you are xtian if you don't you are not and
I know the chioce may be hard but trying to mangle the two together lowers paganism in my opinion

Hey - God gave women periods cos they were EVUL. Good way to get rid of the sanctity of blood/the Feminine as revered by pre-xtians/pagans etc...
Good job JC didn't mind bleeding on the cross. Of COURSE the Church would want to embrace THEIR version of blood worship. Doh.
Again: the two beliefs are irreconciliable. Unless you are a sheeple.