Has opinion changed regarding "eclectic pagans"? Reading through some stuff it seems that people who haven't chosen a path or such tend to be sidelined or thought of as some how lesser beings.

Is this true or just me misinterpreting books?

My own opinion is that eclecticism does not work, you can't mix Scandinavian norse with Wicca or druidry. You can't call on different deities of different pantheons and mix and match, but then that's MY opinion.

I tend to agree with Starred a little, at the same time I do believe there can be some pick and mixing, if it is done intelligently and with fore thought, and of course, a lot of research.

I do believe one can work with different pantheons, although, I do think it's probably sensible to work with one pantheon at a time rather than mixing dieties together...unless of course one is sure they will work ok together without any clashing.

Ohhh, just thought too, I wouldn't say an ecletic pagan is someone who hasn't chosen a path either, they are simply forging one of their own and there sometimes is an over emphasis llabelling oneself.

I think there's a difference between exploring and learning till the right thing comes along and cherry picking from many different traditions. Iam a polytheist and I do follow a certain tradition, and I do find the crystals and dolphins approach strange. I wouldn't say lesser beings or anything, everyone is entitled to their own belief But to give you an example Feng Shui has grown in popularity, but in chinese culture feng shui is about channelling energy from the spirits of the ancestors so if you don't have that belief system of honuring the ancestors :shrug:
This isn't meant to be cultural elitism but in a world where we can see so much but not experience it there seems to be a tendancy to take what we like and turn a blind eye to what we dont creating a grab bag of spirituality. Sorry for the rambling nature had to take a phone call halfway through and lost my train of thought a bit

Never could see the sense in Feng wotsit, bein as how this is Britain and not Asia, but as you say, each to his own.

Or the ancient chinese art of tidying up.

Is that anything to do with ironing?

Ive a bit of a bug bear with feng shu and reiki, yet i often consult the i ching!

As for being British who genetically is?

As near as dammit! But the land is.

Wasn't sure what you were refering to but I think that I may have phrased that wrong about Britain and the far east. If you are going to undertake something such as Feng shui it sits within a wider spiritual context, as does seidr, the use of dreamcatchers, cranebags etc. This isn't to imply that you need to be of the cutltural background but you do need to understand the spiritual network and sometimes if you divroce them from this them from this embedded position they become meaningless. for example I don't think the Native Americans think you have to be purely Native American but they do object to aspects being cherrypicked.

And if you have an interest with the concepts of energy normally associated with Feng shui there is the concept in Irish Mythology of Faerie Paths

This reminds me of a debate we have in the psychotherapies field to do with different theoretical approaches to problems.

Basically as Hermann says, there is seen to be a difference between exploring until you find something that 'fits'...this is surely a healthy thing to do. Eventually some people find an approach that is right for them....and off you go......

For the rest, there again is a difference between a relatively pragmatic 'pick and mix' approach and what we would call integretive working, which whilst it may draw on different theories , it is cohesive, has an internal philosophy and clear boundaries/rules.

The advantage of the clear or integretive approaches being that there is a certain discipline involved in sticking to it, and a discipline and safety in knowing its boundaries. It recognizes that we are doing more than using techniques, but subscribing to a philosophy.

I think there is an argument for applying the same principles to craft, for me there is a discipline in following a particular approach, its the one for me. However this does not mean that I believe it to be THE ONE TRUE path......its just the right way for me to work. Just like for therapists, these are not just techniques, but beliefs. I personally feel that good craft, like good therapy works best when the witch (or therapist) fits the approach. I would also say though, that even those who apparently subscribe to 'pick and mix' usually have an underlying philosophy that is often just not clearly articulated.

I`m going to stop now I`m tired and have a feeling I`m waffling on...time for bed!

Well put Black Gold - a great pity a lot of folk misunderstand the concept of "faith" and far from rambling, you seem to have put it in a nutshell! Each to their own I say.

A cluttered house is the sign of a cluttered mind!

well my granny used to say that

but I have believed in energies and space clearing for a long time cos it helps me.

I think that's probably the point - do what suits you until you feel natural about the whole thing and mixing pantheons is just too confusing for me.

Being eclectic is not an excuse for expecting eveyone to agree with you. If you want exceptance then you are in the wrong game.

Being true to your own path does not mean everyone else will except it. If you cant back it up with truths an meaning, then dont expect others too.

If you cant stand the heat, then get out the feckin kitchen, because moaners an whiners get short shrift.

We reserve the right to say you are talkin shit, in the same way you reserve the right to say you aint.

fare does init

I have friends from many different beliefs...but non o them call mine invalid, out o respect for me, or me knocking their block off. I dont expect no favours though. I have to put my money where my mouth is, or shut the feck up.

Rain

Erm I amn't eclectic I'm celtic but i don't expect to be flamed when I'm new to the board.

i think all people can do with respect - or am i in the wrong place for that???

Who's flaming who or am I missing summat.

Just felt Rain was angry with eclectic paths.

i would find it too difficult to keep track if i was eclectic. That's why I'm Celtic but do have an interest in other things too.

You've made an assumption Elbee 7, Rain I believe was merely expressing her opinion on the topic at hand, not specifically at you - I may be wrong of course but that is the way I've read her reply.

I think if someone is replying to your thread specifically, looking at other topics on UKP you will either be named within the reply or part or all of your thread copied.

The thing about eclecticism is that I think if done well, it's perfectly permissable. I also think that to honour the land around you and the spiritual heritage of the land, a certain degree of ecclecticism (or acceptance of and reverance for beings from other cultures) is necessary.

What if every culture that's come and settled here brought and 'left' their Gods and other types of beings here. Suddenly the landscape becomes very 'alive' and there's no point showing favouritism to one bunch over the others.


However if you're just going to chop and change cultures and take the bits you happen to think are cool, then you deserve everything you get.

Indeed some of you who are against eclectic forget that some of us have inherited our knowledge through the intermarriage of several, often diverse, cultures and traditions. Quite frankly, I have travelled enough to discover that these things do have their common factors, that can be integrated satisfactorally- and would much rather do so, than segregate them in ways that could undoubtably lead to multiple-personality-psychosis. Acceptance? Hah! I couldn't give a damn, otherwise I would have long since been a Christian! No way, I conform to me!

Perhaps the distinction should be made between cherry picked ecleticism and true ecleticism that has been well thought out and explored. The main irritation comes from individuals who decided they like this bit of this culture and that bit of that culture and ohh lets marry those two dieties together, without thought for the cultures/the ethos and identity of those cultures or with any understanding what that religion/spirituality etc means and there are some dieties one just wouldn't mix together.

To my mind it shows a lack of respect too.
True ecleticism takes years.

Yeah well when I speak of "inherited" and "intermarriage" I speak of those of us who are geneologically mixed. Though on one side I may be Norse & Celtic and the other side Slavic & Germanic, with Roman somewhere in the middle, I am not apt to wage one against the other, but have left it entirely to where my basic nature takes me. Thus my path chose me rather that the other way around and ended up a shaman driven by Nature Spirits irregardless of what anyone calls them. Is that integral enough?

We probably all are genelogically mixed, I very much doubt there's much in the way of pure bred race these days, except perhaps in the remotest of areas.

I am agreeing with you btw, incase you're not getting that.. I'm merely saying that perhaps for the purpose of this discussion there ought to be clarity in what is meant when we talk of ecelticism.

No problem, it was the reference to marrying deities that I found rather disturbing. I myself couldn't imagine such a thing. Indeed they belong as they are, unless they share a common ancestry, i.e. Greek/Roman and such.

Im not angry, i just swear too much..lol

It were my opinion, no more no less. I have respect for many different beliefs an paths, an that include many a few 'eclectic witches' our own mod 'Weather Witch' for example , i have a good ol mull over some o the things she has to say but that dont mean i have to put up with everyone expecting my exceptance an respect ( im sure they wouldnt want it either)..lol.

If they do then thats sad!

Respect an exceptance is personal.
Its easy to debate a belief system, but eclectic can mean anything, an is different to everyone, so why should anyone just except anything they are told? an why does anyone expect everyone else to just except it, an then moan about it when they dont ?

Rain

Just to put the rat among the dogs.
Is the whole Wicca thing not based on bits taken from here there and everywhere.

Yes.

I don't think there's any real debate about it, I've certainly argued that myself - it is a truly eclectic religion.

But then, if you think about it, so is Christianity, based as it is upon a pick'n'mix book.


Both valid, both worthy, and both to a considerable degree, eclectic.

And so it is!

The other day, my mother celebrated her 80th and the local Protestant vicar came around to give his blessings. We all became embroiled in the most amusing discussion that started when he moaned about the local disinterest in his church. All the villagers, when asked if his church could be of any service to their needs, their unanimous reply was: "I don't need no church, I can go to the forest to talk to my God!"

....hmm, do I detect a long standing tendency to the old Germanic ways here?

I can't comment on eclecticism but I have come across the attitude that if you don't have a specific path and your only claim to paganism is that you respect and revere the natural world, then some pagans don't class you as pagan (not whinging about it, couldn't really give a monkeys ). There does seem to be a certain snobbery about it with some people, but then, I guess you could say that about most things in life

I think like many on here have said it depends on how you define Eclectic.

I think it also depends on what you hope your path with bring you. I suppose people could class me as eclectic being as I dont really fall into any other category than Witch. Hedgewitch to many, closest to a definition at any rate.

As for using different Pantheons.. I dont know... Im not a person who believes in gods so maybe Im the wrong person to comment here, but I see gods as Avatars, whichever one you want to use to that most closely resembles whatever you want to achive would be the one to use regardless of what tradition it comes from. But I could just have offeneded a lot of people there so I apologise in advance!

Well, I suppose, in terms of spirits, "avatars" is about as close as you can get to tangible representations.

Quaz, I dont know if you are agreeing with me or not! *lol* but I realised after that a little clarification might be best.. when I say Avatar, I mean, the form/god that best represents the energies that you need to work with to achieve what magic you want.

That's where the term 'Bogstandard Pagan' comes in.

Bogstandard Pagans - the unsung heros of the Pagan world.

Yes, exactly. I guess in my terms I would call it "a personification of the forces at work" being as I'm not a witch.

Dear Silvershoe,



Well, it certainly drew on a whole range of influences (or bits, if you prefer) that were undercurrents within Western culture during the centuries prior to its emergence. And is still doing it, filthy mongrel beasts that we are - though come to think of it, some mongrels make pretty good ratters . Ronald Hutton's "The Triumph of the Moon" offers an excellent and thoroughly researched account of this. It's a syncretic tradition.

Can't think of anything in Paganism that isn't syncretic to some degree, because syncretism is inevitable as cultures come into contact with each other and exchange ideas. Cultures that themselves 'originally' came into existence through cultural exchange between smaller groups, and were themselves evolving over time.

Ancient Roman religion emerged from Latin & Etruscan roots, and was absorbing Greek influences (from southern Italy & Sicily) long before the conquest of 'mainland' Greece provided the Roman aristocracy with the greatest wholesale shopping experience before the invention of Tesco . Kept on absorbing 'foreign' religious influences from all over the place (or at least, from everywhere they were in contact with) until Christianity rose to supremacy. They were a bunch of mongrels too, I suppose, and probably wouldn't have conquered most of the known world if they hadn't been.

Snorri's 'Prose Edda' (if memory serves), albeit written in an extensively Christianised time, attempts to provide the Aesir with Trojan ancestry. As people become aware of different cultures, an interesting dynamic of religious syncretism and conservatism emerges. The barriers are usually a bit fuzzy and cultural homogeneity is generally wishful thinking because any culture of significant scale and complexity is itself going to be a tangle of different and by no means harmonious subcultures, at least some of which will be trying to change it into something else.

So yes, Wicca is based on bits that once came from other bits, that once came from other bits, that once came from other bits, and so on back to the trees. Thank you for the compliment .

BB,

John Macintyre

ooh!! isnt the syn word meaning every thing mixes together?its a big word so I forgot how to spell it blush sorry guvnor

Dear Walessheeppink



It works for haggis - or is that a sore subject for sheep?

BB,

John Macintyre

lol John it is a wee bit of a sore point with us sheep,im looking out for any folks that wish to make a wee set of bagpipes out of my lovely pink fur

I wouldn't classify myself as a hero but I do put my hand up to bogstandard paganism - if some folks in the " community " don't see me as a " proper pagan " then frankly that's their tough titty. I couldn't give a flying one. My beliefs and path come from heart, instinct and life experience, and does encompass elements from various other walks of pagan life without necessarily subscribing to them wholesale. And it doesn't come with a " Hey, I passed Pagan School badge ! " either

[
I can't comment on eclecticism but I have come across the attitude that if you don't have a specific path and your only claim to paganism is that you respect and revere the natural world, then some pagans don't class you as pagan (not whinging about it, couldn't really give a monkeys ). There does seem to be a certain snobbery about it with some people, but then, I guess you could say that about most things in life

[/quote]


Well that's me out then cos that's exactly what I do (on my own mainly cos I'm a solitary) yet I've never felt anything other than warmth, friendship and understanding (without being patronised or preached at) by the others on these forums. Any one want to own up to the so-called snobbery?

And that's exactly why the Bogstandard Pagans are the unsung heros of the Pagan world. They just get on with it without the song, dance and crushed velvet (unless they particularly like it ).

You betcha! It's not like us bogsloggers are in it for popularity

If I get the gist of the previous posts. If you combine things in a way which contributes to a path inteligently that is Eclectic. And everyone here is fine with that. It is when different bits are just thrown together without understanding them that gets peoples goat and is eclecticism.

Its kind of the same as the W/w debate.