I have found in my (somewhat still limited) experience of talking to other Pagans, that most of them (myself included) are vegetarian. For me, this is because I would feel like a cannibal eating meat, it guilts me and I just can't do it. Is this true for other Pagans?

How do you feel about being Vegetarian and how did it come about?

If you eat meat? How do you feel about that?

Or if you are Vegan, how did that come about?

xx

I'm a meat eater and have no qualms about it. I do try to buy free range or ethically reared meat but that's not always possible.

Having said I am a meat eater, I eat a fair number of vegetarian meals to.

[quote=Son_Of_Samhain,Dec 19 2006, 08:50 PM]
Hiya,

I'm veggie too and have been for about 16 years.

My reason for becoming veggie was simple-as a child when I found out what 'meat' is I refused to eat it! Like you, I didn't feel comfortable with it. It's a personal choice though-most of my friends and family are meat-eaters and I would never try to 'convert' them.

My reasons for staying veggie are more complex and my philosophy has evolved over time. Recently I've been wondering whether or not the developed world's pattern of meat consumption is sustainable with a growing world population. Maybe the planet would be better off if people ate it less frequently?! There are some statistics on this somewhere-I think on the vegetarian society's website...

I eat meat and don't have a problem with it. I care about animals but I recognise that without the meat industry most farm animals would never have existed. Perhaps the fact that my grandfather was a farmer has influenced it. I know my mum has eaten animals that she helped raise, maybe that outlook has rubbed off on me.

I had a friend who would only eat meat if it was game. She wouldn't eat anything that had been farmed because she thought that wild animals had a better and more natural life.

I voted for eating meat.

I used to be vegetarian, many years ago. (I lapsed for two reasons: I was on holiday in Greece in the mid-90's and I was losing too much weight because all there was to eat as a veggie option was omelette ) and I missed sausages!

I stopped eating meat for ethical reasons. In my teens in the mid-80's the concept of ethical meat wasn't really prevalant or affordable then. At least, the latter wasn't to my family. So it was easier to stop eating meat full-stop. Bless my mother who took it all in her stride and cooked different meals for me every night - I've still never said "thank you" to her for that.

Anyway, I eat meat now, but I'm choosy about it. Thanks to programmes like River Cottage etc I've been able to convert Vert, and now we only eat meat where we know that it's come from local, checkable sources, or it's organic or Free Range or certified RSPCA Freedom From.

Somebody said recently (can't remember who it was) that we are of this earth and we need to eat, and I do believe that to be the case.

As Pagans, if not as humans, I believe we have a duty to ensure that the animals we kill and eat are reared humanely and killed humanely too. We owe it to them to make sure that we honour their sacrifice by doing "right" by them in death as in life, so whenever we eat meat in the house I always prepare it with a "thank you" for dying so that I can eat to live.

I know that some Pagans can't even countenance organic, free-range meat, because it came from something which once lived, and that's fine, my dilemma would come because I'm an animist, and believe EVERYTHING has a spirit and life, but I have to eat to live, so what do I do then? To me, vegetables, plants, flowers etc have life, so where's the distinction between killing them to eat and killing animals?

All comes back to recognising the sacrifice and doing that honour.

HEY
Veggie here!..ive only been a veggie for a couple of years tho.
It all happened due to a variety of leaflets i was given during an animal rights protest in town...it showed graphic images of animals being killed and how they were kept before the murder and that put me off. I thought it would just be a whim but anytime meat/fish comes anywhere near me i wana puke simple as.

Oh how i would love to rant on about this for ages lol. pretty much summed up- how would any of us like to be torn away from our families and murdered in a horrific manor eh? and thats the actual killing what about the time before that...couped up not able to move. I mean surely pagans should respect the earth and the creatures on it isnt that the whole basis of us? in which case how are we respectful when we go about killing them?

ok im off my soap box now lol...sorry if i annoyed any1 but hey whats the use of having opinions and not shouting them outloud.

yall should be glad i dint get really into an arguement

xxx

***Hands up*** Meat eater. Pomona you have hit the nail on the head with your post.
*** Nods in total agreement with P!!!***

I have taken a bit of slagging about being of the carnivorous persuasion, but I can't quite get my head around vegans/vegetarians who will eschew meat eating yet wear leather.
Also, I have had the old "If you had to kill them yourself, you wouldn't be able etc etc blah blah yackity." However I have killed fish, beasts, and fowl , prepared them, and thoroughly enjoyed cooking and eating them.
Whatever flesh you eat, I believe you ought to give a thought to the creature that gave its life - and HONOUR it as you eat it. But then, we tend to take so much for granted nowadays. The same "giving honour" I also apply to fruit/herbage gathered or purchased. It had a life force too.
I have no intention of becoming anything other than omniverous just to satisfy some (not all) vegetarians who have their wee soap box out and are too busy spitting their dummies to pause and ponder. Fortunately, they seem to be in the minority!

i regard all living things as equal so if i`m willing to eat an apple i`m also willing to eat moving beast of any description.
as for killing and eating meat no probs `i have and will again.

i don`t think many people on this site have been starving where choice is live or die.

my brother in law used to masturbate into sausage skins when he was a butcher,
so i tend to eat what i can identify

as the saying goes even a fish wouldnt get caught if it kept its mouth shut.

i also apologise to the grass when i`m mowing

On the whole, well said Tas Mania, although, correct me if I'm wrong, vegans don't wear leather. I have several vegan friends who avoid it at all cost, and would be disgusted if a "vegan" were to wear leather.

The only experience I have ever had of a vegan eating meat was when there was literally nothing else to eat, and even then he tried to live off grass and leaves until he eventually collapsed. But that's not on topic is it...

The only vegi thing that gets on my nerves is when a someone claims to be a vegitarian and then says "oh, but I eat fish." Just a little pet hate of mine.

I myself eat meat, but I do apologise to everything. If I feel depressed I even apollogise to the tiny bacteria living on everything I touch. Maybe that's taking it a bit far though *turns red, getting dodgy looks from the crowd*

I also apologise to any plant I harm. I say it outloud, but get quite a few funny looks from the neighbours!

Caruma

I'm an omnivore... former vegetarian but I've never beaten the drum about it... most pagans that I know are omnivorous as well. I am mighty picky about what meat I eat generally ( the odd lapse into KFC a couple of times a year aside ) and would rather eat smaller quantities of good quality, locally raised if possible and ethically raised certainly, than vast quantities of crap meat. I would also rather eat veggie alternatives than crap meat.

And I do agree with the respect and honour the animal you are eating way of thinking. I am not sure I could kill an animal myself at the moment - maybe its something I could get used to if I had to.

That sounds like my menu as well.

Catrina x

You've hit the fork right into the quorn, Ladycatcrimson!

Excellent quality meat, no KFC, no McDonalds.

I still wonder if, when a cow has been killed for it's meat, it watches us enjoy our meal and thinks "I hated them for killing me but I am pleased that somebody is enjoying my side so much." I say thins in a serious way even though it does sound a little perculier.

Caruma

Hah, funny story that. I was a vegiterian for a little over 19 years, I was brought up vegy. My dad and his partner still are.

Anyway, met my ex about five years ago and he didn't eat anything green at all! Eventually, it became easier for me to eat meat, so I did. Threw myself into meat eating.

He's not a vegan.

LOL

Actually, anyone see that National IQ test? The Vegies not only won the overall IQ hands down, but had the single highest IQ in their group too.

Its the smell of cooking bacon that does it for me. I just dont think i could give up the bacon!!!***Mouth drips onto comp***

Bacon never did it for me. Love sausages.

Tas Mania,

I think there's something wrong with your last post. It may become a bit confusing.

Got to agree though! How stupid can you possibly get. She should stand back and take a good long look at what she's doing. Instead of "dub blonde" it's now officialy become "dumb vegan". (No offence intended to any blondes. Don't agree with it, just using the phrase...just covering my back!)

Caruma

oops I think I pressed a wrong key or summat! Ah weel, I am good at doing confusing at the best of times! And I'm a dumb redhead!

hmmm, I dislike veggies/vegans who are all save the planet. Esp those who wear fake fur or fake leather as they are all by products of the petro-chemical industry and far mone damaging than the real thing.

I do not have a problem with vegans and veggies as long as they don't shove their "meat is murder" shit in my face.

Couldn't agree more, Starred. I think some of the ones like that do it to try and be different. Not that there's anything wrong with different but they're doing it for the wrong reasons, just for the sake of it.

Each to their own.



And I really can't believe that you're dumb, Tas Mania!

Same here, I try to buy free range and ethically reared meat whenever I can, but it's not easy when you have a family and a budget either! I love vegetables as well and often cook vegetarian meals - this is something my 10 year old old seems to have inherited, and I've never had a problem with her eating vegetables or salad - she even likes sprouts!
For Yule, we're pushing the boat out and having (ethically reared) wild boar from the local butcher.

BTW, I was totally veggie between the ages of 13 and 17 for ethical reasons, but in the end, I did really miss meat - Pomona's post really struck a chord - our poor mums, eh?

Wild boar! Haven't had that for a long time. Delicious though. I'll be sitting at the table at Yule just envying you! I'm having pheasant. Hardly a close comparison!

Lucky devil! (metaphorically)

Caruma

Evangelising veggies and vegans get on my wick, as do pagans who claim you can't be pagan if you eat meat... what a load of old codswallop! I don't exactly hold with the opinion that if you can't kill it yourself you shouldn't eat it argument either.. however, I do believe we should all be aware of how our meat gets to our tables and yes as LCC said have respect and gratitude that an animal has been killed so we might eat.

And frankly we know plants can experience pain too and they get messed around with and fed all sorts too to make them bigger, more productive and resistant to disease... but then I guess they aren't as cute and fluffy as a lamb, or a calf... and of course they don't express their fears and pain as acutely as an animal...

I couldn't give a flying crap what people choose or choose not to eat, I just don't want their preference forced upon myself. With so much in this world, its about respect.

And don't get me started on the irony of pagans whittering on that one has to be veggie to be pagan..... and in the next breath talking about our pagan ancestors and getting back to that state......

mmm..

Am a born again corpse muncher! was a vegan for crumbs over a decade- missed cheese so slipped into vegatarianism now i blame eggs for my complete fall from grace.
I agree with Solanie about evangelising veggies - and as for the it has to be organic mob! AAaargh! Wonna buy some Organic coal?

Am a meat-eating gal, always have been, always will be. Don't feel guilty about it, don't even think about it. Each to their own.

Lifelong omnivore with strong preference for free-range/'ethical' meat. No problem with killing for food and been accustomed to occasionally doing so since childhood. Worth remembering that 'prey' species depend on predators to keep their numbers down to a level that won't exhaust their food supplies - it's interdependence, not exploitation. And one way or another, we're all food in our turn and that's how it should be.

Respect right of veggies/vegans to their choices but respectfully disagree with view of world this is sometimes based on. Humans evolved as predatory omnivores and we're rather good at it. The argument that a much larger human population could subsist on a vegeterian diet on the same area of ground is flawed because it ignores the very variable terrain human beings live on. Here in Scotland, a very large percentage of the land is unfit for cultivation but well suited to stock-rearing. This is in no way a defence of intensive/'factory' farming which is barbaric, unhealthy and generally vile.

Actually a bit surprised by the low % of vegetarian/vegan folks in the poll. I'd reckoned (from organising events) that the % of veggie Pagans was somewhere between 25 and 33%. But that may be biased as some omnivorous Pagans probably register for veggie food if they don't know how meat is being sourced. Also have the impression that the proportion of veggies has been declining for a decade or so, as 'ethical' meat becames better known and more easily sourced.

Not surprised by survey indicating higher average IQ amongst veggies. Becoming a veggie almost inevitably means thinking about your life and then, whatever conclusions you come to, taking steps to change it. Alarming number people seem to never do this.

BB,

John Macintyre

I wonder what the IQ of people who make the 'meat avoider' choice is?

It's supposed to be a term for people who make the choice of eating very little meat because they will only eat free-range/outdoor-reared/ethically-produced etc. and the price/availabilty means that they therefore eat very little of it.

That is my position.

--

Jez

Dear Jez,



"Meat-avoider". Thank you!! I now have positive term to put a spin on being a not-terribly-competent hunter. Now I can say: "I did not miss that pigeon - I avoided its meat!" .



I suspect that the average IQ is pretty much the same across all folks who educate themselves about food and ecology, and then make choices based on that, regardless of what the choices are. The problem with all these surveys is the control sample.

Best Wishes,

John Macintyre

I am so in agreement with you John

I've been a veggie for 20 years now, (my mother still thinks this is a fad i'll grow out off). Since I was veggie way before I was Pagan, I really don't think that being a vegetable makes me more pagany than anyone else.

Vegetarnism, is right for me, and I truly hope that I don't force my vegetarinism onto anyone else. If I'm entertaining meet eaters, I'll often cook to accomodate their meet-eater-ness, just as I would hope that they would accomodate me.

Q

Well with being a meat eater with an IQ (yes and I am a mensa member) of 169, there is hope for non veggies yet.

IQ however is outdated and has nothing to do with actual intelligence. IQ is the measurement of the abiility to have intelligence, not of intelligence. Believe me there are some stupid people in Mensa!

I believe you...

--

Jez

But I'm a fully paid up member of Densa!

Well I guess you could call me the opposite of a vegetarian, as all vegetables not related to the nightshade family do not fare well with my chemistry. Nonetheless I am perfectly healthy without them.

Meat eater - love steak too much to be a veggie!

Well looking at the pole so far...pagan meat eaters are well in the lead.As it should be if you ask me.
Its only because of modern farming, imports, an shops, that people can choose to be finicky about what they eat. Once upon a time it would have been eat meat or starve, an wear fur or freeze to death. Vegans are a modern concept in the human specie's.
Lucky they can buy plastic shoes init, an where would they get their lentils from?

I eat meat, i love meat, an i dont have the room to rear my own meat stock ( though the dogs can catch their own food) an i would love to only eat free range meat, but me purse dont stretch to 8 quid for one chicken, when a full family meal needs two .

An if you eat fish, you are not a vegetarian...fish are not vegetables...its as simple as that. So no double standards please...lol, an believe me modern fish farming is no more humane than any other sort o animal farming.

Rain

I eat meat - but have cut down hugely and only eat organic meat now (or free range if no other choice) Am very lucky to have an organic farm near me which runs a subscription scheme and we get all our meat from them - we go and see the sheep pigs, cows etc and even met our christmas turkey!! it is really good to se how our meat is raised and to actually meet and talk with the producer

Like I don't need to justify it.


As for the whole meat and Paganism thing. I'm sick to death of santimonious prats telling me that I can't be a 'proper' Pagan if I eat meat.

Els - the very 'improper' Pagan.

The funniest thing I ever saw was a bottle of "organic" water.

My chemistry teacher would have cacked herself at that.(H20)

Sorry off topic...

I'm an omnivore, but I try to eat more vege meals cause my cholesterol is a problem, and sometimes a salad is more appealing than a big lump of steak. I lived opposite a maccas for 3 years - but havn't eaten their "food" for over a decade.

organic water! ...ROFLMFAO...says it all. Man can produce lots o things, but water is the most valuable commodity. We cant produce that in sustainable amounts.

thats a cracker..lol

Ohh ..an lets not forget the pollution caused by the shipping bringing in out o season vedge an fruits to keep our veggies happy...i blame them *points finger*...lol

Rain

Meat eater myself ! I love sinking my teeth in to a good slab of meat...I also love the look and feel of raw meat, but sadly, I've been told I am not allowed to eat that lol I may have been some sort of meat eating animal in a past life! The big cat type lol

Of course proper pagans eat meat !! Man has always eaten meat, that is why we have the teeth to eat meat, we ate meat or perished from hunger, we wore furs or we freeze to death.
Its only modern pagans that can choose. They need to take a good look at the past if they are judging eating meat with paganism. Living off the land is paganism at its most basic. There modern non meat eating ways are new age, not paganism. Pagan is a way o life, not just about gods an spirituality. I join Elswyth's pagan side...me an her agree

Rain

Damn straight!
Yes ok we don't necessarily NEED to eat meat anymore, we have alternatives.. but what is the cost of those alternatives... and as you say we have a choice. I choose to eat meat, for cost reasons I can't oftne afford organic meet, I try where possible to buy free range and I also try to buy british meat... if I can't afford to support the organic farmers as much as I'd like, then I'd at least like to support our farmers AND reduce the need to import meat from other countries and the associated environmental damage that causes. Although, I'm not overly against imported food for the simple economic equation, it is a person's livlihood and some foods now come from poor countries.. by buyin their produce, I hopefully am helping a little for that country to become more self sustained and prosperous.

There are some foods I will no longer buy from supermarkets.. and one of those foods is strawberries.. I've yet to taste a supermarket strawberry, even ones sourced locally that actually taste like a strawberry!!!!

I do wish farmer's markets ran at the weekend too.. most round here are during the week...... no good if you work!

That's a wee bit of an assumption there Rain, that just cos we're veggie, we go and stock the fruit bowl unseasonal, tasteless, pap fruit and veg.

Q

Yep, about on the same level as vegetarians who assume that all meat-eaters stuff themselves every day on factory-farmed burgers.

--

I live in a sheep/cattle area. The land is too hilly to be farmed for grain or most other crops. There is land all around the country which would be irreparably harmed if farmed for non-pastoral crops. Some land in this country was harmed in the wartime by being dug up and ploughed for ground crops, and is now useless for anything without piling fertilser on it each year and pesticides on it all through the growing season.

--

Regulations in the UK are among the strictest - that's why the Danish and Dutch pork products are cheaper.

--

I was out with a vegetarian at Avebury once, and he was extolling the virtues of letting the sheep there live out their natural lives... Presumably along with being hunted by wolves and left to die in birth accidents, and from loss of teeth in old age... It was a view that he hadn't thought through.

--

The 'natural' landscape of the wilder bits of the UK are produced by farming. Animal farming. Regulated and - hopefully - properly enforced to make us the country which is at the forefront of best practice in farming.

--

My view is, buy British, make a fuss when you cannot, ask for the provenance of meat which says only 'EU' on it, support our own farmers and own our producers, make sure it is worth a farmer's while to take care of the land and the animals on it, refuse battery or factory-farmed eggs and meat and milk/dairy products and eat less meat if you cannot afford good meat.

Fill the kids up on the rest of the meal, because a chicken should serve four, easily. Remember starters? They are there to ensure that the meal is big enough without so much meat. Soups and savouries, bread with your meal, fruit afterwards, as a family habit.

--

And now the dawn is showing, and I am signing off.

--

Good Yule, folks. I'll be off-line a while

--

Jez

I am in a mixed marriage.

I eat anything that is edible, she a life long vegetarian.

I have my own cooking utensiles for when I deal with flesh, fish & fowl.

The only time I have seen her eat meat was during our first few months. When I took her to restaurants or home to mum she would force herself to pick at the meat. She thought I would think she was a weirdo and ditch her if I found out she was veggie. Silly girl.

That was 46 years ago, now our favourite pastime is to haunt so called health foodshops poking fun a those who buy fake meat. Sad I know.

Soya Turkey Roast, Quorn sausages, even fake bacon slices. What is the point ?

dav

*nods* Yup, it baffles me what some people think of those that were here before the virus called Christianity hit. What the hell do they think the Blood moon was about? And while we don't necessarily need to eat meat (although some of us end up very ill if we don't, even if we do it properly), I so no problem with eating meat that has been produced locally and as ethically as possible.

Could you imagine Veggie Vikings though?

'Ere...Olaf!!!'

'What?'

'Pass us some of that stuff your Gudrun made that tastes like meat but ain't yer bogarding bastard, I'm crammin!'





Unfortunately many people don't realise this.



Damn straight!!!! We need to protect our farming industry!! I also don't buy meat that has travelled a lot(alive or dead) so I like finding local farm shops. When I used to work on site, I worked every Friday on the farm and at that farm, from farm to slaughterhouse to farm for packing is less than 20miles. Nowadays I think that's pretty damn good, plus I know how the animals were treated in life.



Same to you!



Exactly. I've often wondered that myself. I once ventured to ask two vegans I was serving back when I was a checkout girl during my student days and they just looked at me down their noses and one repled haughtily 'We like the taste but we don't like the cruelty, some of us have ethics!'. I just sniggered. Not because I found it particularly funny but because it's like a reflex reaction with me when I encounter certain brands of snottiness. They probably would have complained were it not for the store I worked at liked to include a ladle worth of blood with every joint of meat and so the protestations of vegans buying fake bacon wouldn't have made much of an impact.

Organic water? I've got plenty...comes out of a well in the basement, along with deadly amounts of nitrate from all the vinyards along this valley, and all the e-coli from all the organic farms. So who's kidding who? If you want healthy beef, put your cattle out to pasture so they can build up a hardy immune system, and Nature can process the manure as she sees fit!