It strikes me that many pagans go with a modern way of thinking- but I am curious about how many people have thought about pre-historic worship, and how (if at all) it lends strength to their modern belief.

I'm mostly thinking about a statue that I've been reading about- found in an archaeological site in 1976- the statue is small, perhaps eight inches tall and four inches wide, a woman with very broad hips and an obviously pregnant belly. Here's the thing- it is dated to 35,000 years ago...

Does any here follow a path that is beyond modern interpretation? I mean to say, does any here follow a prehistoric path?

Before any says it- I know that it is not easily traceable. That's not my point. Modern archaeology cannot find fact in the rubbish that we shift through. I'm only asking if someone has found a belief in something very much older than what is usually discussed.

My mum (an archeologist) believes that such statues, rather than being images of a goddes figure, may represent charms or somesuch for safe childbirth. Apparantly the distorted figure of a very large belly/hips, tiny feet, etc. is what it looks like when very pregnant women look down on themselves.

She also says that one of the problems with archeological research is that anything that can't be figured out automatically gets labelled as a "ritual" item.

bb
Rhiannon

As a religious heathen my beliefs do have an element of ancestor worship, and I hope, without any evidence, that some of the practices I follow to ensure the seasons follow their proper order do reflect those followed by my remote kin if lacking in the urgency of their circumstances.

As for the ancient female figures, are they of a goddess, are they a portrait of an ancient loved one, are they art, or just porn ?


dav

Braided ringlets now cropped covered by cotton cap
Boundless breasts by Tesco tabard tethered
Hillock of bounteous belly cramped by Lycra and lastic
The soft swell of buttock and vulva once proudly displayed encased in sensible St Michael
Support hose hold once welcoming wondrous all engulfing thighs
Feet that danced in dew grass now shuffle in Clarke's flaties

But I recognise you
Honey and milk you brought and meat, to the threshing floor wild wheat.
Now you stack shelves.
Never leave us
Or we starve.



sorry, I couldn't resist the urge but it does express my feelings on the subject
dav

This is something that frustrates me enourmously. Having attended Archaological digs in the past, and starting my studies on Ancient and Medieval History, it seems that the popular desire to find something ritual and extraordinary often shadows our judgement of something with a perfectly plausible explanation. For example, a small pool which was believed to be used for sacrificial reasons, couldn't be used to water horses or wash household items?

RavenDaughter

As strange as it may seem, while standing on an outcrop of the "Greenland Formation" in Nova Scotia, I came in communion with a very ancient spirit that enlightened me with a few visions of a very remote past. Interestingly alot of archeological finds lately are confirming my suspicions, that have alot to do with the four great cycles of civilization in Native American beliefs.

The figures your refering too are commonly called Venus figurines and the strongest interpretation in archaeology at the moment is that they represent some form of prehistoric religious icon. That though is just one idea, there is no guarantee in archaeology especially when you are going back that far in time.

There are a couple of male figureens from the same time but they are much rarer. You could draw lots of conclusions from this either the female was more important and thus more were made of the female form and therefore more survive. OR you could say that the male figure was more special and therefore looked after more buried in places we have not found yet whereas the female figure was very common and lost all over the place.

The trouble with archaeology is its all about interpretation, and because people are not objective even when they try to be we all put our own slant or bias on interpretation.

Personally I quite like the idea of an early religion seeing the female as a wonderous thing. If you didn't know exactly where children come from then females producing new life is even more amazing than it is today. Almost miraculous. So much of early life was based on the crops or the animals being fertile so I believe it is highly likely that these figures were created to appeal to some power of fertility that they would like to encourage. It is possible that they were used by pregnant women for protection as you would think that any power associated with fertility would also be responsible for the protection of women during childbirth.

This link has some lovely images of male and female venus figures.

http://donsmaps.com/venus.html#dolni

Temps

the constant emphasis in paganism about 'tradition' caused me to look into shamanism (the pre-cursor of ALL religions).

this was a number of years ago and i found it very refreshing after the 'stuffiness'/ confines of 'pagan tradition'.

LUMI

I read a book once (no don't stone me) and I can't remember the title, but it was really interesting, it divided pre-historic religions into 'fertility magics', and suggested that the Venus' were idols for sympathetic magic, and 'hunt magics' and suggested that pre-historic cave paintings worked in a similar sympathetic method.

I don't know if these is hogswash or not, but the book was interesting at the theories put forward were quite compelling. I think that sucess in the hunt would have been crucial to these pre-historic peoples and as Tempy points out, the whole miracle of birth must have been just as amazing then as it is today.

Q

I've read something on the cave paintings that said that. Oh for the life of me i cant think where. That the images of human and animal mixes were shamanic images. There is the idea that by painting the hunt it influenced the success of the venture. Oh I am going to have to and root through my books now on prehisoric culture.

thanks Q

Just in case anyone was interested the book was ...

Gods of Prehistoric Man: Maringer, Johannes

Q

Check out a few websites on the temples of Malta for some really fascinating stuff.

Na queenie the book you want is the prehistory of sex... now there is an interesting read.

the BBC produced a series a while ago called 'How Art Made The World' which featured the 'Venus' statues.. its a GREAT series.
(torrent users should still be able to download it)


LUMI

[quote=lady_templar_99,Jan 5 2007, 12:00 PM]
[quote=Queenie,Jan 5 2007, 02:30 AM]Just in case anyone was interested the book was ...

Na queenie the book you want is the prehistory of sex... now there is an interesting read.

[/quote]

*Raises an eyebrow* Mmm that looks most educational.

[quote=illuminatidred,Jan 5 2007, 12:02 PM]
the BBC produced a series a while ago called 'How Art Made The World' which featured the 'Venus' statues.. its a GREAT series.


[/quote]

I saw that series as well Lumi, iand I agree it was excellent. It was interesting that they suggested that humans were only realistically portryaed in art for a very brief period, and then showed all the staturary underwater.

Can I just query what is 'torrent' user is? As I would like to catch the series again cos I'm sure I missed episodes.

Q

read that as staturary underwear!!!



been spending too long at the computer!!

Yep!

Excellent- thanks for all the response. I'll definitely check out the books and shows mentioned... so much good stuff to read. It's amazing I get any sleep.

I went into the site, Lady Templar - The Venus of Neuchâtel looks decidedly phallic - maybe it was used as a substitute?
The Lespugue Venus bears a strong resemblance to statues of Astarte, with what have been mistakenly called multiple breasts. These are in fact representations of testicles - a male/female sexual fusion.
What a lovely site - thanx!

(see earlier posting from L.T. for link http://donsmaps.com/venus.html#dolni!

>Can I just query what is 'torrent' user is? As I would like to catch the series >again cos I'm sure I missed episodes.

>Q

a Torrent is a type of file share prog. you use it to download bigger files. i use 'Bit Lord'.

LUMI

Has anyone ever contacted gods/goddesses from prehistory?

As for the statuettes, they might be religious, or they might not. Lots of men worship the female figure in all forms including statues, but that's just their biological urges, and I bet they had them in prehistoric times too.

I'm fascinated by many of the aspects of prehistoric life, especially the religious and ritual aspects of those cultures.

I've researched quite a bit into the cultures of the Highlands and Islands of Scotland, and it never fails to tickle me how anything 'odd' is immediately explained away as ritual. Nevertheless, there have been a lot of things I've seen, or places where I have been, and felt a connection to something very deep and very sacred.

Many thanks Lumi

Q

...a charm infused with the power of what?

Marion.

Depends which pagans you're talking about. The ones you find in the Mind, Body Spirit section with a copy of Tit Hardy, yes, probably. The ones over in the archaeology and ancient history section, probably not



Worship, maybe - certainly a way of life. The thought of separating such cultures from belief is impossible. Reality is what is, not something constructed through choice as it often is now/in the West. It's like people trying to 'study' the aborigines and looking at it from a Western ethnographic angle - which is natural, because what else do we have? Only to discover that you can't transpose the two world-views/realities and have them both survive.

I read a bit, I try and keep an eye on decent anthropological writers, a lot of them exploring global shamanic traditions today which have remained largely unchanged in hundreds/thousands or years - look at decent historians who approached things from a healthy mind-set (few of them) and working through those resources I think you can't help but be affected by it. It's something primordial from the dawn of mankind, it's in our DNA and it's uniting across every continent. You don't just shrug that off in a couple of thousand years of Christianity. I think it's often very hard to find because it's not just religion but rife capitalism, commercialism and greed that also blinds us, but it's not completely lost - just, for the most part, nameless.

Best wishes,

Marion.

Nobody can follow a prehistoric path, no-one knows what it was, unless you were there at the time? I have studied archaeology and often came up with theories that the tutors had never thought of, let alone considered, but then they always fall back on the 'tried and tested' theories that don't get them laughed at don't they??!!

Sorry, no, but I would be interested to know if you find anything. I know that in the stone age they used to bury their dead with flowers - but I think that it is probably common knowledge.

Ahh, and then there's the converse in people like Erik von Däniken. As much as archeologists may laugh at his far-flung theories, the man is so rich, he has his own theme park in the Interlaken area of Switzerland.

If your theories are so laughable, they might be just as profitable for "Press" rather than "Test"!

My theories were not laughable, they were borne of logic and evidence but unnacepted theories no matter how good or bad are unacceptable to the overwhelmingly christian theorites that still rule the roost!!!
For instance, when we covered prehistoric Britain and the building of henges I stated at the time that there would have to be a village or settlement somewhere in the area, seasonal or not, if there were to be rituals or celebrations of any type. The tutor dismissed this as being too 'theoretical' I hope she has been following the news about Stonehenge!!
In all the so - called 'Roman' finds in this country there is one thing that has never, and in my opinion never will be, found and that is a Roman cemetery. There have been many instances of people being buried in the Roman style but after extensive mineral testing of bones, there has yet to be a Roman discovered in this country. This bears out the curator at a 'Roman' villa we went to on a field trip, who stated that British people lived in the villas, not Romans, plus there were 'probably less that 200 Romans in this country during the 400 years of 'Roman occupation'.'

Aw don't let that deter you, it's not like Christians can stop people such as Robert Bauval or Graham Hancock from publishing their theories. If it were not for publishers and patent offices, even Einstein would have been left in the dark
(as it was he failed math miserably in school)!

"In all the so - called 'Roman' finds in this country there is one thing that has never, and in my opinion never will be, found and that is a Roman cemetery. There have been many instances of people being buried in the Roman style but after extensive mineral testing of bones, there has yet to be a Roman discovered in this country. This bears out the curator at a 'Roman' villa we went to on a field trip, who stated that British people lived in the villas, not Romans, plus there were 'probably less that 200 Romans in this country during the 400 years of 'Roman occupation'.'"


Just two points really
1 Do you mean an actual Italian Roman, or a Spanish Roman or a Germanic Roman or a Gaulish Roman or a Belgic Roman or even a Greek Roman?

"Nobody can follow a prehistoric path, no-one knows what it was, unless you were there at the time? I have studied archaeology and often came up with theories that the tutors had never thought of, let alone considered, but then they always fall back on the 'tried and tested' theories that don't get them laughed at don't they??!!"

2 Next time your on your Moon lit meanderings take a look up into the night sky, Take a good look at the closest brightest star Thats Venus! as the Romans called her, I personally call her Ishtar. A planet held in awe by virtually every culture thats ever existed.

It might help if you defined what is "usually discussed."

Part of my path is shamanic which is about as old as you get, but EVERYTHING I do is "modern" since it's all viewed through my feelings and experiences which are themselves modern.

I was wondering if it was some early kind of porn myself. fizzy

arianrhod will without doubt be talking about there only being 200 or so Italian Romans, as the vast majority of the personell of the Roman army in Britain as in most parts of the Roman Empire, comprised of mercenary troops from other nations including Britain.

What an odd thing to say. "Romans" were from everywhere. The reason you're not finding "Italian Romans" is because "Rome" was comprised of SO many nations. Anyone who knows basic history knows that. Why should there be "Italians" found, what would it prove? The fact that indiginous people were being burried in the roman way shows that they had adapted to the roman life, taken on the roman gods.

That said. I dont see how anyone can follow a pre history path. Religion evolved as the people evolved. Certainly some of the names or rituals or odds and sods may still hang about, but "pre-history" is just that. Before history. Before the writing down of the infomation. Whatever path anyone follows at the moment, if they claim it to be a "pre-history" path, I think they are probably a little deluded.

Deluded? Nah...I follow the prehistoric path of "THE QUEST FOR LUNCHMEAT"!

[quote=Xalle,Apr 23 2007, 08:24 PM]
[quote]
That said. I dont see how anyone can follow a pre history path. Religion evolved as the people evolved. Certainly some of the names or rituals or odds and sods may still hang about, but "pre-history" is just that. Before history. Before the writing down of the infomation. Whatever path anyone follows at the moment, if they claim it to be a "pre-history" path, I think they are probably a little deluded.

[/quote]

Absolutely agree. How can we know what was believed in prehistoric times? What few items we have are impossible to interpret with any degree of certainty. I think that anyone claiming to follow a pre-history path should take a careful look at the evidence.

Frey

Hmmm interesting - I love anything about prehistoric life.

One interesting reconstruction of stone age religions is the fiction series Earth's Children by Jean Aurel - Clan of the Cave Bear, Valley of the Horses, Mammoth Hunters, Plains of Passage, Shelters of Stone. The first book deals with the Neanderthalls and the rest with the goddess statue mother worship.

Although obviously reconstructed there is enough information in these books to base a working pagan tradition around.

Surely to try would be no worse than than the many other 'reinvented' pagan traditions that have sprung up in the last 100 years.

I would also recommend Bernard Cornwall's book 'Stonehenge'.

Skegga

Totally true, but it still wouldnt be the original path, because as you say it is reinvented. And there would be lots missing, or incorrect or misinterpreted.

You could say the same about any pagan tradition reconstructed after a long period from a society without thorough written records. Heathenry and Druidism for starters.

Admitted we do have a little more in the way of clues for those though

Skegga

I've been having a really good think about this one, I mean okay, you can't actually go pick up on something that is separated by gosh knows how many years, but what if a person does find something/gain something from that period of time, isn't that a link. Okay, I know it won't stand well in terms of evidence, but then, when it comes to personal belief, is proof really required? I mean its a personal thing, right?

ponders a bit more....

fizz

There may well be a lack of written history - or rather history which is preserved in a manner accessible to US - but what of the stones? In my opinion, the stones speak to us - but mostly we have lost the ability (or faith?) in OUR ability (? again) to "read" what they have to tell us. Same with cave paintings/pictographs/mounds etc.

Not explaining this very coherently - sorry!

yeah, its like (for me) I have woken up only half remembering something, like a really, really, hard to reach or distant memory that would make sense of everything (well some of it anyway).

Strange, what I experience sometimes feels old, I mean really old. It resonates with half lost memory and frustrating because what I 'get' is equally hard to describe. I could be totally wrong too about the time period that I am referring to. its just that bloomin' vague. but the would resonance definitely is definitely a good word.

not sure I am making that much sense, either Tas.

fizz...keeps on pondering.

Joining in the pondering...

My thoughts are that no one could follow a prehistoric path, for many reasons, ie lack of understanding, evidence etc.

However I do believe that as humans have evolved so have the gods/goddesses. Or as our understanding of the world around us has grown, the gods/goddesses have opened up, allowed us to grow in our belief and know a bit more about their role in the world.

On another thread there is a discussion on whether gods/goddesses die, when there is no one to believe/worship them. My belief, in brief (and simplistic), is that the divine are always around us, and are there when we need them. Therefore the gods and goddesses have been around for aeons.

When someone first finds themselves on a pagan path, they will, at least I did, looked at the world around me. As I try to relearn to listen to myself and the environment I hope to gain more. The world has been around for along time, and will have many memories and stories to tell.

Hope the above makes sense.

Right. I'm gonna be a taoist schmuck here and say this:

I follow the oldest path ever known to the state of human consciousness-
namely the path of discovery, so call it whatever you like.

Go forth and explore, it's all part of evolution.

taoist schmuck's thoughts most welcome.

We're all curious buggers at heart

Dragonhawk says: the oldest religion is the backbreaking toil of lifting monoliths. especially when they hit their thumb with a mallet.

Nah sorry I don't think any European person can claim to follow pre-Christian beliefs except the Saami and Roma who to my knowledge are the only European peoples never to have been fully converted to Christianity or Islam.

The truth is we do not know anything about what our ancestors believed prior to Roman times when the first things were written about them and even if it had all been written down for us, we still wouldn't understand the heart of their spirituality which is their personal experiences of it.

The oldest known human beliefs are thought to come from animism - the belief in a Creator and that everything in nature has a spirit. Given that animism was so widespread amongst the ancient peoples and contemporary traditional peoples around the world today and that animist beliefs and practises were recorded in this country alongside Christianity as late as the turn of the last century I would infer from this that animism *might* have formed the original spirituality of our ancestors and that the belief in many God's and Goddesses was a natural evolution of the original beliefs in and the worship of the nature and earth spirits - i.e. they came to be regarded and worshipped as deities in their own right.

As the knowledge of our people's pre-Christian beliefs is so incomplete, I personally believe in going back to the roots and try to take inspiration for my spirituality from the same things that my ancestors might well have done, most of the things that they took inspiration from are still here all around us today and I think it's therefore possible to get a sense of that ancient spirituality. But I would never claim to follow THEIR spirituality but my own personal path here in the modern age. We don't know the specifics of our pre-Christian ancestors beliefs to be able to follow them.

Who were the saami and roma?

fizz