I would be interested to know about people's views on modern day vampirism.

Do you consider yourself to be a vampyre?

Do you believe they are real?

Do you think they have much in common with witches?

Do you think Vampirism is a valid Pagan path?


Just Curious!!

Do you consider yourself to be a vampyre? => Nope.

Do you believe they are real? => Nope.

Do you think they much in common with witches? => Ooh, yes - I hop on me broomstick whenever I feel the urge and pop into the nearest A. & E. for a quick pint. NOT.

Do you think Vampirism is a valid Pagan path? => Not qualified to comment. Suck it and see.

No to all the questions

1. No
2. No
3. Eh...not really, no.
4. Don´t know. there are so many paths and I have no idea what qualifies.

Deerheart

I know very little about modern vampirism, apart from the odd Gothic fetish of course - sorry!

Raven

What Tas said basically!

Why would vampirism have anything to do with Paganism? I did research on Lilith years ago and there was a suggested group ritual which involved cutting each other and drinking the blood as part of it.

But when you read about "vampirism" you tend to think of gothic Transylvanian films which have more Christian iconography than any other religion really. All those crucifixes and so on.

i dont cosider my self a vampire but i am interested in the ideas behind the beings.
with respect to modern vampirism , i wouldnt class it as a pagan tradition although some tribal traditions do have blood drinking as a form of ritual like some african tribes.

i would say that i do believe in vapires in the form of incubi and sucubi, vapires that leach off sexual flesh and energy. modern vampirism i supose would be a branch of ocultism , and possably necromantic ritual , the injestion lof boold as a symbol of life and death.

i do beleive they can exist as some people who are acutely aneamic have regular ingetions of blood , iknow my uncle does , he likes his burgers still breathing prity much! lol
this is just my idea i guess... hope that helps

And can any body tell me, before I drift off, why the "y"?

Erm, so why is the posting "Vampirism" as opposed to "Vampyrism"?

You know, that's what sprang to mind when I read your first questions Far more common I’d say.

I went through a phase in my teens - I used to hand out on this brilliant Fidonet BBS before the internet took off. It was called Demon's Domain, run by the legendary Mr. Jackson (Deebs will remember this). It was quite an awesome resource on all things occult.

I went through everything with an open mind and one of the categories was Vampires. There were techniques on sucking energy so, naturally curious, I started putting them to the test. I kept it up for a couple of months, trying different techniques out - some of it certainly felt like it had an effect, some didn't. I think part of it was psychosomatic.

I think the very pest psychic vampires are the ones who don't seem to realise it - there are some people who walk into a room and the energy just goes flat. I can do it with a tone of voice - off-hand comment and the room goes zap. Most people can. I think it's an interesting one because the energy, by rights, must go somewhere. Either it goes into the person who did that or maybe energy works like waves and it just flattens - still there but the dimensions are changed. In some way it's just energy manipulation like most occultists do every day.

It was interesting. Now you've brought it up, I may go experiment a bit more and come back - haven't done it as an adult, like to see what I make of it now.

I think your theories and the stuff you're saying is quite interesting. Again, I wonder how much is psychosomatic or working towards chaos magic but manifesting a neurosis rather than actually controlling the condition/situation.

Dunno. Keep talking, let me think about it

Marion.

Ah, thanks for that. I was a tad confused, but now you've explained I will rest easy tonight!

LOL sorry, just listening to Empire by Bomb the Bass featuring Sinéad O'connor & Benjamin Zephaniah.

Concept of the vampyric nation. Just made me smile - vampirism on a global scale.

Marion.

[quote=DryadMoon,Jan 17 2007, 03:12 AM]
[quote=Thinair,Jan 17 2007, 01:12 AM]You know, that's what sprang to mind when I read your first questions Far more common I’d say.

[/quote]


Blood drinking is probably more common than you think actually. ANd of course most witches are aware of the power of blood in magic so thats another similarity I didn't put on my list!

re:- 'Mythos Of The Blood' hah! hah! hah! Bollox to ya! Pikey.

I can be a bit of a vamp sometimes, but never a vampyre.


No - I believe there are some people who feel the need to be "different" and are drawn to certain behaviours. Vampires have quite a romantic image, the handsome dark stranger seducing nubile virgins in diaphonous gowns.

For those over the age of 40ish, were there any people pretending to be vampires pre 1980s? I recall watching a couple of documentaries about people who wanted to convince others they were vampires in the 1980s but I can't recall anything pre the end of the New Romantic/beginning of Goth era?


Yes - you get people who pretend to be witches for the same reasons you get people who pretend to be vampires.


Unless it's got a religious mythos attached, then no.

Incidentally - are there any references to psychic vampires pre Dion Fortune?

Cynical?? Moi??

Hmmmm.

Not quite sure where to go with this, it raises a couple of interesting subjects like psychic vampires.. but before I make any comments on that let me get the intial questions out of the way.

I do not believe in vampires as in the blood sucking fiends variety. Yes I believe there are psychic vampires because we have all come across them.. people that suck your energy leaving you emotionally drained, leeches.

Is it a pagan path? I dont think so but then Im not entirely convinced that being a witch (in my sense) is being on a pagan path either. I have a system of beliefs, they do not involve gods, but it does involve energy work... is being a witch being a pagan, only in so far as the term pagan used to be held, as in non-christian. The modern sense of the word seems to now indicate that there is some sort of religious drive behind whatever "brand" of pagan you are and I wouldnt subscribe to that personally.

I dont think that helps you any mind you but tis the best I can do at the moment!

However...



This I take issue with. This energy isnt being given away. Its the energy that has formed in a room because of the group dynamic within it, its that energy that assists in the "atmosphere" in the room. Energies are being exchanged between individuals in the same way people subconciously exchange body language, its still their energy! It certainly not being given away.

I think that people who tend to be psychic vampires tend to be those needy people who seek drama in every situation. Encounters with them leave you feeling exhausted and fed up. I think its a weakness in their own emotional energies that need buoyed up with others peoples attentions. I dont think that its a path or a life choice.

I also think that for what you are describing the term vampire is a very unfortunate one. Manipulating peoples energies is a plausable thing to be doing, draining peoples energies is also completely possible.. if this group work only with energies then what sort of stuff do they do with it? I mean an they manipulate it for purpose or is it just for their own gratification? If its just for their own gratification.. then someone who gets their high like that I would lable "bastard". If there are groups of people out there advocating this then yeah.. I can understand why witches would get pissed off.. cant say I'm too chuffed to hear about it myself! Its a cheap, easy way to get something and it depends on other people doing the work of building their own energies for someone else to come and deplete it.

If however the energies are manipulated or there is some sort of counterbalance.. ie they take from here but give back there.. and its a form of .. sluicing the energies.. (like plants ltaking in the co2 and giving us back the o2) then they might wanna consider moving away from a term that makes people picture someone in a cape with a widows peak saying things like *de chil-dren of de niiighht.. vot beeeuutifulll musik dey maaake.*

You could argue that all witches are vampires then to some extent - we raise energy and use it like Xalle said, or we draw energy from a source, so we're taking it and sending it somewhere else.

I think energy is like water, it's recyclable - moisture vapour is drawn up from the sea, falls as rain, into rivers, back to the sea and so on. Energy's the same - there's a finite amount of it - it all goes somewhere.

So we're all guilty of collecting energy, and all guilty of sending it out again to wherever.

Which makes the term "vampire" irrelevent really I think. We're just an entity which uses and expends energy.

Good point Pomona!

Where's Buffy when you need her????

1) no
2)not in the count dracular sense no.
3) If you take the term vampyre to mean someone who continually draws energy to them selves draining all arround them. I have known a few. But only one of them followed a pagan path. I think the two are not neccesarily linked at all.
4) What, going round deliberately draining people's energy???!!! Not much of a path is it? If I find anyone deliberately trying to drain my energy ( which I see as a form of assualt ) They'll live to regret it....... just.

Most big black poets also sing from time-to-time...Macka B for instance... Benjamin Z comes out with some superb things, check out that song and also De Rong Song, which is a piss-take on Marley's 'Don't Worry, Be Happy' the lyrics are brilliant.



The song is referring to the British Empire ("from now on I will call you England") and it's drinking-dry of other nations and cultures. It could also have applied to the Roman empire, the Christians, Germany and so forth, throughout the ages. It's an old concept, a little late for worrying

Best wishes,

Marion.

Vampires exist on every continent in some form or another - they're a primeval concept that exist in the realms of spirit in a number of forms. The blood-sucking image is one of a very specific era: that of Bram Stoker or of other folk lore such as the chupacabra. Modern vampires seem to have latched on to the suave, sophisticated Dracula and Countess Bathory figures rather than, for some reason, the stinking old goat figure of chupacabra. Can't imagine why.

However, in every shamanic culture you find some vampyric figure. Some are psi-vampyres such as the Hungry Ghosts of Buddhism or Ibéjì of Yorubaland Vodoun. Then you might consider powerful super-human characters such as the African Witches (Àję), Native American U`tlûñ'tä/Nûñ'yunu'ï or even the Indian Mahakali. Blood rites are associated with most of these.

As I previously said, this is primeval stuff shared between shamanic cultures, which means there's probably an entheogenic link in there somewhere. You'd do really well asking an Ayahuasqero about vampires, I’d bet you'd get some phenomenal answers. There's likely a very strong entheogenic link in there somewhere. You might not want to part from the Stoker imagery but if you seriously are interested in the root origins and the meaning of vampires and vampirism, that'd be a pretty safe route to head down. Considering how much of today's folklore comes from Eastern Europe, it may be something strongly specific to amanita too, and probably something femanine (Succubus springs to mind).

Best wishes,

Marion.

[quote=DryadMoon,Jan 16 2007, 09:21 PM]
I would be interested to know about people's views on modern day vampirism.[/quote]

Do you consider yourself to be a vampyre?[/quote]

Hardly... i can't even eat bacon unless it is cooked crispy (and their are much more fun ways to gain energy than standing in a crowded room like the last wallflower at a party and draining it from some unsuspecting person)

[quote]Do you believe they are real?[/quote]

Nope.... but i think the dim-witted are easily fooled by the charasmatic (and a vampyre would serve no purpose... everything has it's place )

[quote]Do you think they have much in common with witches?[/quote]

I've yet to meet a witch who's whole existance is based around living forever and preying on those weaker than themselves for personal gain/sustenance... so, once again... no....

[quote]Do you think Vampirism is a valid Pagan path?[/quote]

"valid pagan path" is a discussion ongoing in many quarters.. and it'll prolly be ongoing for eternity..... i've got me own path to walk...... interested but not worried about the "validity" of others.....


Besides... i look terrible in black.......

Do you consider yourself to be a vampyre?

Er, well, you probably all think I'm a little odd, so I'm not a too much risk of exposing myself as a freak....

I did, not a 1000 year old, imortal, look at me I can change into a bat type vampire. But back in the day I was blood fetishist. I was involved in a 'scene' I guess you'd call it. I started off as a 'Black Swan' someone who is a consenting donor, but twas not long before I was necking down the ole red stuff. We went by the term HLV's, which was human living vampires, as I said we didn't think of ourselves as having mythic qualities like the vampires in popular fiction, we just knew we thrived on it. Alas the 80's came along, HIV, and some riks you don't take. Plus I settled down with Mr Queenie who is very very attached to his blood and wants it to stay in his boody. So my blood sucking fiend days are no more.

Do you believe they are real?

We were real, I think they are people who really think that are imortal, undead, blood sucking fiends (prolly watched too much Blade/Buffy and read too much Anne Rice) and there is a medical condition where people demonstrate vampiric 'symptoms' (can't recall what the conditions called).

Do you think they have much in common with witches?

Not really, I was a blood sucker long before I was a witch and really don't see much connection between the two other than knowing just how valuable a commodity blood is.

Do you think Vampirism is a valid Pagan path?

I don't think it is a path, maybe, an unsual interest / lifestyle choice.

Q

Indeed, I'm inclined to suspect "Modern Day Vampirism" is no more than a Christian misinterpretation of the old Lilith cult practices, with a little Bram Stoker thrown in.

Hi Queenie

Interesting post

Can I ask what drew you to the reality of the scene rather than the idea of it, and what you got out of donating/drinking blood? Quite simply, why?

Well, I think the way I became involved in all of this is probably why I was fairly realist about it all.

I would have been about 16, and I was a chronic self harmer, my boyfriend who got me into the whole scene, made a pact with me, that I wouldn't cut myself with reckless abandon. So in an arse about face way it became a control mechanism (one could argue he was controlling me, and maybe even question his motives, but it was seriously a better for me, actually there is a film called 'The Secretary' a colleague at work brought in a copy and said 'This is so you'. I was a bit offended at the time, but with the benefit of hindsight I can see what she meant).

I think I was always attracted to the idea of the scene as well, that first reading of Dracula, I think can switch switches in a pubescent mind. Perhaps even prior to teens actually. I always remeber thinking that the Count of Sesame Street was way way cool. The whole 'One cookie muahahaha'.

On a bit of an aside, when I was donor, I was in quite high demand as apparently vegetarians taste sweeter! the switch from donor to drinker was gradual. I think that there is only so long that you hear people sucking up going 'Yum Yum' before you think. Ooh I'll try some of what they're having!

As to how I left my blood sucking days behind me. It was 2-fold really. Firstly the world had finally cottoned on to the idea that HIV/AIDS wasn't just a gay disease (Oh gods how misinformed were the ad campaigns of the early 80's). I don't think that they ever considered informing the vampire community of the risk. Oversite there perhaps!

Secondly, I met & married Mr Queenie. and bless his little cottons, I've never, ever met someone so blood shy. He can't even watch when I have a blood test. So it was hang up the fangs or swap in my man, and I chose to hang up the fangs.

Q

Queenie - what effect, if any, did drinking blood have?

Sorry it's taken me so long to reply...busy week!

Well the simple answer to that is...dunno.

I did have an awakening (how cheesey a phrase is that?) of my psychic awareness that coincided with the blood drinking, but I was also a teen, and a lot of freaky thangs can happen to teenage gals (remember Carry at the prom?).

I also felt better when I was drinking, more alive, more connected, I can't really do the feelings justice in words, however, if someone wants to tell me that it was all in my head - I couldn't give them proof positive that they're wrong.

However, the main effect was...er... libidinousness. Its all true what they say about the underwired nighties!

Q

Just a thought, I was wondering if anyone had put two threads together.

This one about vampirism and the veggie thread, have you all figured out yet...I am the living incarnation of Count Duckula vegetarian [ex] vampire.

Lock up your brocoli.

Q

Ta for replying. Interesting the things that happened at the same time. It is hard to be sure with cause and effect though, as you say. My broccoli is now secure. Ever seen that spoof horror where a woman turns into a broccoli?

No


Well it’s a fact that their real….at least the subculture is. There is a subculture which currently exists where they have two main types of real modern day vampires which include sangunarian vampires (those who drink blood from often willing donors) and psi vampires (those who psychically feed off others sometimes without consent). For more information I recommend the following site:
http://www.sanguinarius.org/

There are other types of vampires that don’t actually come under this subculture and are more theoretical. Such as astral vampires and emotional vampires.


Around about the only thing I can currently think of which witches have in common with the real modern day vampire subculture is that they believe in a form of energy/chi. Some vampires may also look to forms of magic and apply it alongside their lifestyle.



Vampirism is not a valid pagan path its not even a belief system it is a lifestyle – or at least according to most real modern day vampires and sources that I’ve come across. Real modern day vampirism is also not an earth based spirituality.

totally off topic again :-S this is for queenie , Porphyria !
Blood is life, and in some cases people find this to be true. This page is here to show the reflections of Vampirism in the medical field. These diseases, especially Porphyria have been heavily linked to Vampires. In the case of Porphyria it has caused distress in some of the sufferers. Some of them only reflect the mythical image of a vampire, others, some say, make people "need" blood, however there is no medical evidence to support this.

Porphyria, or "The Vampire Disease", is perhaps one of the most well known reasons for the image of a Vampire, hence the name. Porphyria is the name given to a group of genetic blood diseases which effects the porphyrin rings in the hemoglobin in the blood which is responsible for carrying oxygen round the blood. It is said to have originated from European nobility who were renound for incest. Some of the diseases symptoms can be viewed as vampiric, such as; sensitivity to light, reddish brown urine and teeth, excess body hair, mutilated eyelids, ears, fingers. The symptoms of this disease can be eased through the injection of a substance called heme but in the middle ages they would not have had the ability to do this. Heme is found in bone marrow, red blood cells and the liver. This could indicate that people of these times drank the blood of the people around them to rid them of their syptoms. A man called David Dolphin presented this information in 1985 but it has been refuted by many professionals since that time. When the media got hold of this information it caused widespread panic meaning the 50,000 (ish) people who had the disease were ridiculed and their lives were effectively made a living hell. His hypothesis states as follows: "Since in the Middle Ages an injection of the red pigmnt of blood would not be possible, what else might take its place? If a large amount of blood were to be drunk then the heme in it, if it passes through the stomach wall to the bloodstream, would serve the same purpose. It is our contention that blood drinking vampires were in fact victims of Porphyria trying to alleviate symptoms of their dreadful disease.
Catalepsy is a disease which attacks the nervous system. It causes loss of voluntary motion, makes the muscles go rigid and it also decreases your sensitivity to pain and heat. This means that the person with the disease can see and hear but cannot move at all. The persons breathing and pulse slows down so much that the person could look like they were dead. This is what connects it to vampirism. Before the invention of medicine these people would have been buried alive and as the disease can, sometimes, last for as little as a few minutes when they awake underground they would dig their way to the surface. This image relflects that of a vampire and again, along with the bubonic plague, could have spawned the first "Vampire" image

When you can stand in the road an get hit by a 7 ton truck an stand up again, I will believe you are a vampire .
Also you have to have died to be a vampire.
There are people who letch energy from others, but that's not a true vampire in my eyes, that's just an energy letch. An there is no true illness that needs ingested blood. There is no benefit from ingested blood. The acids from the stomach destroy everything ( except sweetcorn it seems). Hemophiliacs get nothing from ingesting blood...its a load o rubbish.
Its also a insult to the real nosferatu.

Rain

i was looking around the internet and i founda few sites that talk about magical vampireism. the taking of magical energy from another person. it seems to me that it is simmilar to raising energy through chanting and conecting to the earth or object containing energy, like grounding and centuring, or even invoking a god form,but borrowing someone ellses energy to empower yourself. its is interesting, i it made me think it could possably be part of the pagan ever expanding umbrella, if not then part of the magic and occult side of paganism, if you like, the left hand path maby? i was wondering what others thought of this as a magical technique to be practicing ?

I think Ive already made my feelings on that pretty clear. Pulling in energies to work with is one thing, taking energies off another person to do what you want is lazy and just not bloody right! If I thought someone was draining my energies for their purposes Id be one very brassed off witch.

Indeed, brilliant analysis, and certainly gives clue to Bram Stoker's account of the infamous Romanian noble afflicted with the symptoms you mentioned. I have often wondered about the deeper truth to that legend, myself.

Damn straight... I would be very brassed off indeed I've had some experience of this before with someone. They actually made me physically sick due to it, I was fine before I met them but when meeting up and chatting away I for no apparent reason felt really rough had to go throw up and felt shaky etc... When I left there company I quickly felt much better, Couldn't find any obvious cause for the sudden and short lived illness other than a rapid draining of my own energies, I'm not even sure the person was aware of what they were doing to be honest.

understandable answers i guess, i supose there could be restraints put on its use, maby only to take anothers energy if they willingly alow you to.

The thing is warlok its a choice. Anyone remotely capably of working with ernergy can do it, and sure, if you are doing something huge and need a lot of energy to work with or are doing something very specific for that person and need their energy for it and they agree then its not a problem, but the term vampire, pre-supposes taking without permission. You cant regulate how people do their magick, that would be like trying to give leeches permission to suck... they just do, all we can do is peel em off!

Psychic vampires exist. Nuff said. And if anyone asks I said nothing.

lol. didnt mean to upset anyone, just expressing my view all tho comparing us to leaches ... bit mean!! humans are more inteligent than a leach, besides i dint mind then that much, groovey little creatures

The question we might be better employed considering is, "Is energy finite?"

If it is, and is thus inexhaustible, we have nothing more to concern ourselves with. This entire thread then becomes, by extrapolation, a futile attempt to "prove" a moot point.

If Energy is NOT a finite resource, then we must ask ourselves, in any undertaking we contemplate, "Why have I the right/unqualified need to draw upon Energy? If I do so, what then happens to the vacuum I have created? (Nature abhors a vacuum!)"

Witches tend to take note of this funadamental Law. To do otherwise would be foolish to put it mildly!

Hmm, I guess that depends on whether you are running AC or DC (not to be confused with the makers of "glow in the dark" vodka of the gamma ray kind)

Tas honey... switch that.

Finite means theres only a certain amount of it.. infiniate... means theres nothing to worry about

But regardless.. I think that there is more energy in the universe than we can use in one lifetime, but thats really not the point. We all have our own personal energy that no one has the right to take. It doesnt matter if you can build it up again in a matter of hours, days or weeks.. (depending on how much is taken) Its JUST like someone taking your blood! How would you feel if someone snuck up and drained a few pints off? I mean you dont need to worry.. your body will make more.. its hardly the point tho is it?

And yes Warlock... I know it may seem harsh, but its a complete invasion of someones being to steal their energy. It is leech like. Its wrong. I dont think there is a way to justify it.

Oops! That's what comes of buggering about with infinity in the wee small hours!

No to all.

Porphyria. George III had this and was the major cause of his popularly being supposed mad. Queen Victoria is also supposed to have had a mild form of it - this was attributed to her occasional blind rages. As there is an heredtory factor in this our current Royal Family could well be vampyres. Some would say they bleed us dry already. And look how long they live. I'm sure the queen mother would be with us yet but for accidentally being staked

Yup, noticed that about the Habsburgs around these parts!

Re the Royals--> Arseholes with teeth?! The mind boggles!

lmao

Oi. Um. I have been stuck with altogether too many "vampires" in my day. So I have some things to say on this topic. Bear in mind that this is all derived from my personal experience and is not meant to offend anyone in any way, or any of that. Here goes...

Right. I have known a number of people who thought they were vampires, and I have a friend who also knew a number. Mine were around a few years ago, his were in the early 90's. And what I can tell you is this: I have never met nor heard of a mentally stable person who genuinely believed that he/she/it was a vampire in the sense of NEEDING to feed off other humans' energy, be it in the form of blood or straight off the metaphysical tap. Not to say I'd describe myself or any of my close friends as overly stable either, not to say unstable people can't be perfectly lovely. However, I have noticed that most of the Vampire People I or my friends have come into contact with were... NOT the nice kind. I dated one who was a compulsive liar and essentially devoid of any deep-seated sense of identity, attempting to construct a self based on bits and threads he grabbed from random places nearby. And in that he lived off of me for a couple of years, he was an exceptionally effective vampire in at least the one respect, though I never saw him drink any blood. The one my friend dated slept in a coffin (though I would describe his subsequent involvement as much more vampyric in the life-sucking sense). However, said friend is also still close friends with a former "vampire" friend of his, who used to be quite famous for such. They're not all bad people, just a little... nonstandard. Still, I don't think I would ever, EVER date one again. EVER.

Do I believe they exist? Well, the people tho think they are certainly exist. Do I believe they have special powers? Aaaaaaah, here's the difficult part-- sometimes.

Sometimes I think the people who class themselves as vampires are actually just neurotic and weird people, usually socially maladjusted (and so am I, ,just not the same way), who take their ability to manipulate energy the wrong way and identify it with the incorrect fictional archetype. Some of the ones I knew were DEFINITELY Weird (which term I use for... magical in general, I guess). Some of them are just seeking a sense of belonging, the idea of being Cool. But others? Others... There are those I just wish weren't crazy, ya know? </bitter experience>

I wear black every day. I wear nearly ALL black every day. I am pale and I have blue hair and I enjoy heavy eye makeup and red lipstick. This is just the way of the world, and always has been since I began selecting my own clothes at age 14 or so. But no, I do NOT think I am a vampire. No, I never did. No, I never will. (They tried.) And I'll thank everyone to note that most of the goths don't like the people who think they're vampires as a result of having been too often tarred with the same brush, and a decent number of the vampires don't like the goths either. Just sayin'.

Hey, at least I've only thus far had to deal with (more and less metaphorical) zombies, vampires, and ghosts. No Werewolves Yet!