Ok so having been used to a very stringent set of moral and ethical 'rules' I am feeling somewhat at sea when I consider Pagan morals/ethics.

How do people feel about morals?
What guides you in your morality?
What principles do you follow - I know some aren't wiccan so 'harm ye none' etc is not followed but is there a guiding principle you follow?

What do folks think about casual sex?
Abortion?
Murder?
Adultery?

and any others?


I look forward to some food for thought.

There are a few points here I think.

There're no such things are "Pagan morals" as such, mainly because there're no real unifying Pagan ethics as such - every Pagan path has its own creed, its own ethos. So the Heathen virtues will be different (probably) to the Roman ones, and then, as you say, you have the Wiccan ones.

And those are only the "defined" Pagan paths. Eclectic pagans don't necessarily have a defined set of rules to live by other than the ones they have chosen for themselves.

So defining a broad "Pagan" set of morals is nigh on impossible.

Many Pagans were brought up in Christian households, and, let's face it, the laws of the land are based on the Christian commandments. So you won't necessarily find huge differences in Pagan and Christian (and Muslim and Jewish) ethics for that matter.

Pagans are individuals, like everyone else, and while they may have been brought up to believe one thing, over time they develop their own ideals and morals.

So my own thoughts on the BIG topics you talked about are going to be at odds with many other Pagans here, and equally, in line with other Pagans.

So... I'm not a Wiccan so I don't follow "harm none" - I think it's unworkable. I try, during a working (spell) to minimise the harm to others, unless of course I'm doing a hexing If the harm to others outweighs my hopes of the result of the outcome of the spell, then I'll look for an alternative. So maybe "cause as little extraeneous damage as possible" is more likely for my mind

Casual sex? Um, why not? If both partners consent and know the score - why not? Sorry, but I think it's nobody's business what goes on in someone else's sex life if both partners are in agreement to it.

Abortion? Personally, I'm only in favour for the first few weeks. Knowing that a foetus can survive at, what is it, 22 weeks and the abortion limit is about the same, I really don't know how we can countenance abortion at that time. So - I'd say, yes, I'm in favour of abortion up until maybe, 18 weeks. But, and I'm happy to concede, that's a fairly uninformed and possibly naive viewpoint and it's open to being challenged.

Murder. It depends. Accosting someone on their way home from work and mugging and stabbing them for their mobile phone? Definitely. Jumping on someone's head because you don't like their skin colour? You bet. Killing someone you live with who's beat you black and blue, killed your dog, and is threatening to kill your children? Hmmmm...

Adultery. Well, I'd have to hold my hand up and say that I'm guilty of that. Vert and I both are. Does that mean I condone it? No, not at all, but everyone's circumstances are different and I wouldn't condemn people for it - no-one except the couple knows what goes on behind closed doors. And it's all very well for an outsider to condemn it, but I wouldn't. Believe me, no-one commits adultery (what a Biblical phrase that is!) because they just fancied some casual sex (see above). So how someone can condenm it and be all "holier-than-thou" is, frankly, beyond me.

I think the main thing is that Pagans have, in the main, come to their path and their beliefs through a lot of soul-searching and breaking free from the dictats of the Christian Church. (It does seem to be the Christian Church people break away from for some reason )

And, like I said before, these are just my thoughts but everyone else here will have other views.

Two Pagans, three points of view, eh?

(Edited to say that I'm going to move this to General as it's too good for the Snug)

Thanks P

My baseline is that one should be able to "go to sleep in one's own skin".
(It's a conscience thing - think about it)

I'm sure this post is going to kick up some dust!


What do folks think about casual sex?

I believe that if you are single and not in a committed relationship that there is nothing wrong with casual sex...in fact I thoroughly support it! Taking precautions is something that can not be forced upon anyone, but providing you don't want to become pregnant this way or catch any yukky disease it's probably best to cover up and wear wellies when paddling.

Abortion?

My views on abortion are simple. If you don't want to get pregnant use precautions (yes accidents happen...but lets cut the odds right down!)
Later abortions should not be supported unless for a valid medical reason.
It is a woman's choice to what to do with her own body, but if this situation occurs within a relationship the man also should have a say in any decision...but ultimately I still believe it is a woman's choice to make.

Murder?

All I can say is complete agreement with Pomona.

Adultery?
If you cheat you are not happy n a relationship....for whatever reason.
It needs to be addressed...I may come back to this one later!

Morals, well I agree with Pomona its not really a unified Pagan thing. I personally prefer to leave it to weighing out the possible consequences of my actions.

Another one agreeing with Pomona, theres no "set" moral code for pagans.

As for me:

Abortion:

Provided its not being used as a form of contraceptive I dont have a problem with it. Im uncomfortable about later abortions but I know circumstances sometimes contrive to make an earlier one impossible. I can understand the need. Im not happy about it, but yeah... not willing to condemn someone for it.

Murder:

Im a bit funny about this one. If it was the choice between killing someone or watching that someone kill me or someone close to me, I wouldnt hesitate. I DONT agree with state sanctioned capital punishment. However I think that life in prison should be just that.. life, if I saw someone kill someone I loved if I was too late to prevent it.. i dont know how I would react, I'd probably kill them and take the jail time.. well worth it.


Adultry:

I dont agree with it. You must be aware that theres something wrong with your relationship before you take that step. Id either try and sort THAT out or end it.

Morals! Morals! Morals!

These sudo-christian ideals keep creeping in!

What do I think about

What do folks think about casual sex?

Love it! Not that im doing it that often lately!

Abortion?

Makes me feel uncomfortable, All things have a right to life! But I would never and have never stood against anyone who wished to do this!

Murder?

Be nice if we could legally kill one person a year! Seriously though if you take a life, yours should be forfeit!


Adultery?

Erm! its really brilliant till you get caught, then it gets a tad annoying,
In hindsight its best not to do it!

Hmm, bit of an awkward one this, it depends how you define morals. In my case I work on trying to keep a clear conscience, which means I try not to cause harm. Having said that, I will fight (and would kill) to defend me and mine.

As to the issues you've raised:

Casual sex - Personally I'd prefer there to be more to it than just sex, but as long as it's between consenting adults I don't see the problem.

Abortion - I don't have a problem with abortion where there is a genuine medical/compassionate reason, but I'm a bit wary of the ease with which it seems to be available for other reasons.

Murder - Cold pre-meditated murder should mean that you forfeit all rights and go away for the rest of your life. Manslaughter - Depends on the circumstances and how much provocation.

Adultery - No. Either stick to the promise you made or end the relationship. If you can't be open about it, don't do it.

I think Pomona said it all really!

How you're brought up does have a lot to do with it, as does personality.
I think people have their own personal set of moral codes - what they think is an acceptable way to behave etc.

For example, if someone was in trouble, some people would just walk past, not wanting to get involved, whereas others would stop and try to help.
Would you give up your seat on the bus for an elderly person or a pregnant woman? It amazes me how many people, especially young, fit men, don't these days!

As for abortion, adultery and murder - yes on the face of it they are wrong. However, I am in total agreement with comments so far and very much feel that you have to look deeper and consider personal circumstances of the people involved, which most of us on the outside are not in a position to do.

I agree abortion is wrong if used as a form of contraceptive, but as others have said accidents happen - if you're on your own and not very well off, then it might be the sensible option.

Murder - Yes, I would kill to protect myself or one of my loved ones, without a doubt. Cold blooded or pre-meditated murder of someone not posing a threat to you or your family is wrong in my book! And life should mean life! (I'm not comfortable with capital punishment).

What Xalle said about adultery is very simple and sensible - if you're not happy with your relationship/marriage then sort it out or end it.
Wise words but like everything else, it's not ALWAYS that simple.

Like Pomona, I am not condoning adultery but I have also been there.
My marriage hit a very low point when my daughter was two, I was only 22 and everything was stressful - money, jobs, family, everything. My husband wasn't being very communicative, obstructive even, if I did try to discuss our relationship/finances.
It was impossible - I couldn't discuss it, sort things out, he just point blank refused! It always ended in a shouting match!
Anyway, I didn't decide "right, that's it, I'm going to go off and find someone else and have an affair!". I don't remember making any conscious decisions, it just so happened that I was introduced to a friend of a friend one night and we hit it off straight away. He was also in a relationship that he wasn't 100% happy with and we became each other's shoulder to cry on sort of thing. There was also a lot of chemistry going on, and before I knew it we were seeing each other - these things just happen like that!
I didn't realise it at the time but for me, it was a form of 'escapism' - I could leave my daily problems behind and go and see this bloke, put all my troubles aside for a while. I could be me, have fun! I think it's the one time in my life when I've been selfish!

Yes, in hindsight, I should have been stronger and said 'no'. If I knew then what I know now, it would never have happened.
I'm pleased to say that I did work things out with my husband (yes, he does know about the affair ), we've persevered, and we have now been married for over 10 years.

So before you condemn someone or their actions, sometimes you need to understand their personal circumstances, experiences, upbringing etc.

Christian morals - thou shalt not do this and thou shalt not do that - aren't really relevant to real life in my opinion. Life is more complicated than that.

Sorry, Eagledance, didn't mean to write an essay!

Trouble with any sort of moral guidelines is that there are (almost)always fuzzy areas between what's ok and what's not.

Only guideline that I'd think of as being Pagan is "how do you perceive the consequences of your action?"

My own take on the dilemmas posted would be

casual sex - fuzzy. So long as both parties are ok about it, fine.
abortion - pretty much always justified.
murder - fuzzy. Who are you going to murder and why? Whose definition of murder are you using?
adultery - pretty much never justified.

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

I could rabbit on about the Nine Noble Virtues here, but I've not got long and you can always google or wiki them. Not Wiccan so don't go with "harm none" (unworkable anyway). I gues my ruling principle is only to do that which I can take before my Gods and stand before them and justify with honour. Quickly:

Casual sex - not my thing, but as long as you're not hurting anyone, you take precautions, consenting adults etc.
Abortion - strongly support a woman's right to choose - if you're not the one who's pregnant, you can't judge.
Murder - generally opposed, but depends on circumstances - much the same as Pomona.
Adultery - difficult. Life ain't that simple and realtionships certainly aren't, trouble is people tend to get hurt. I hope I'd never condemn anyone out of hand though.

Morals, I have more than I think lol

Casual Sex, personally, isn't for me , so long as no ones getting hurt, I see no reason why others can not enjoy it.

Abortion - Tricky thing, I've had catholic values drummed in to me for a good portion of my life, sometimes it's hard to form your own views when someone else is giving you theirs, it would be entirely on circumstance, each case should be treated differently.

Murder, well, my most used phrase is - one day I'll kill you, or , shh or I'll kill you, a bit worrying ? not sure really lol but also, all down to circumstance, I think it is very hard to generalise an answer for these cases.

Adultery, also not for me

At risk of being really boring, I have to say that pomana has hit many nails soundly on the head, regarding no generic 'Pagan Morals'.

Personally I try to go through live doing the 'Least Harm Possible'. I could never get my head round the Wiccan Rede, because I think it is impossible to do 'No Harm'. Human being tend to have a fairly negative impact on the planet, just being here. The carbon footprints we leave are a bit scary.

What do folks think about casual sex?

Have casually flung in the past, but in happy, commited relationship with Mr Queenie and wouldn't risk that for all the tea in a really big tea shop. However, if people are going into things knowing the score on all sides, fair do's.

Abortion?

Pro-Choice and sincerely pray that people don't find themselves in the position of having to make tough choices.

Murder?

Cop out, but it is dependant on the circumstances. To kill in cold blood, or for greed, or out of hate should necessitate a life sentence, I would also make drink driving murder, if you go behind the wheel of a car when you've been drinking you might as well be waving a loaded gun around.

However, as Pomona points out, sometimes there are mitigating circumstances, killing to protect your kids.

I'm agaisnt capital punishment though, as I've said before, I think that as a punishment its too easy.

Adultery?

It hurts like buggery, avoid like the plague, if you can't avoid get out as soon as you can.

Q

I use one basic rule and that is that if you have weighed up the possible consequences of your actions and are still able to look yourself squarely in mirror then do it. Just don't complain if /when the said consequences catch up with you.

Morals? What morals?

I mean to say- I agree, there are no morals that are agreed upon. 'Pagan' isn't actually a faith, or a religion, or a belief. 'Pagan' has no customs or arguments or standards, does it?

Should any ask if I am a good person, of course I would say yes. Most people would say that they are good people. It's wholly too difficult to say what is 'good' or what constitutes 'morals'. Can I be a Christian and still say that abortion at any stage is wrong? Of course I can. Can I be a 'pagan' and say the same? Of course. It depends on how I define my belief in 'Christianity' or 'paganism', doesn't it? Is homosexuality wrong? Again, depends on what I believe to be the 'laws'.

I don't see how anyone could define morals..and without definition, no-one can compare their opinion to it.

Hmm. I don't think that 'morals' are what is being discussed. I think that opinions are being discussed. Am I wrong?

Well, it goes to show that it all boils down to individual rights, and the realization that we are actually each responsible for the consequences of our own actions. Thus in Legal terms there are such distinctions as "Malice aforethought" and "Criminal Negligence", for example.

I don't know how such proceedings are in the UK, but in German courts emphasis is always made on the rights and responsibilities of the individual. This accepts that there are unique circumstances where it is the individual's responsibility to use their own better judgement within these guidelines.

The word Moral as an adjective can be
English Encarta

To me morals are personal and are in fact the same as opinions.
Just my view

Orchid
X

The way I see it is that we all have personal opinions on what is right or wrong, certain ideas on how we should conduct ourselves, treat others etc...
But also, we are only human and we all make mistakes - it's whether you choose to learn from those mistakes - or not - is what matters

Dear Eagledance,

A lot of very interesting, thoughtful, posts.



If we define morals as simply the distinctions we make between good and bad, right and wrong, conduct in our lives, then I'm very much in favour of them. As long as they're reasonably sane that is.



As a Wiccan, I find the Wiccan Rede a very sound guide to morality. It recognises our place as human beings within the web of life wherein everything we do, or refrain from doing, has consequences for ourselves and for others. It encourages working towards peaceful outcomes while acknowledging the legitimacy of both self-defence and justice. It places a very strong emphasis on both personal freedom and personal responsibility and thus would be a good foundation for a tolerant, diverse and humane society. It does not insist that we harm none under any or all circumstances. It does encourage us to be aware of the context in which our actions operate, to consider the probable consequences of the choices we make, to choose those which are reasonable and proportionate in the circumstances and thus minimise such harm as cannot be prevented, and take responsibility for our contribution by either action or inaction to the outcome. Hard ethical choices are not about whether harm will happen, but about who it will happen to.

Better yet, the Wiccan Rede does not operate as a 'law' ('rede' means advice or counsel)but as a framework for evaluating actions (including non-action) and consequences. It thus encourages folk to move beyond considering ethics as a matter of obedience to rules - which is dangerous when the rules are set by political/religious authorities with their own agendas.

In practice, nearly all Pagans I've met seem to approach ethical matters in accordance with one or other interpretation of the Rede, including most of those who vehemently insist they think it's impossible or abhorrent or both . Ironically, these last often follow the Rede with much greater thought and fidelity than some Wiccans who only pay it lip-service. Its prevalence isn't really any credit to Wicca because there's nothing particularly or originally Wiccan about it. The Rede is simply an expression of a general, predominantly humanist, approach to ethics which Wicca grabbed because it wasn't nailed down and padlocked.

Better yet, it could, theoretically and in rather extreme circumstances, possibly be an advantage if some folk believe the Rede prohibits causing any and all harm. It means - but only if they're thoroughly nasty, anti-social, malicious and generally objectionable folk (which no one here is) you understand - they might fail to notice you'd grabbed a pickaxe handle and were bearing down on them with intent to minimise overall harm to society.



"An it harm none, do what ye will." It's short, easy to remember, and provides a framework you can spend the rest of your life exploring ethical complexities within.



I'd see this as more a matter of manners than of morals. Casual sex doesn't appeal to me, but so long as those doing it show respect and take responsibility for each other, and for any others whose interests also need to be considered, then it's not a moral issue.



It's a terrible thing with long term consequences for everybody involved, but needs to be seen in the context of all the individual factors and circumstances that lead to it being considered. Up to the point at which the foetus can sustain life with a reasonable prospect of healthy survival, the decision really has to be a matter for the pregnant woman concerned, who should be supported in the choice she makes. I know several women who've had abortions, and for none was it a decision taken lightly. The alternative would be forcing women who had decided they needed to have an abortion to carry a pregnancy to term against their will, and that would be an even worse thing.



Assuming this means unlawful, premeditated killing rather than killing in self-defence or defence of others, killing in war, lawful execution in accordance with an honest justice system (whether or not you believe in capital punishment), or manslaughter (where premeditation is lacking) then I believe it to always be wrong because none of the justifications for killing in extreme circumstances which the Rede can allow for would apply.



This is a difficult one, made worse by the way society encourages folk to rush into swearing oaths which they may not have thought through, or may not have known themselves and each other well enough at the time to have fully understood the implications. Circumstances vary so much from couple to couple that I don't think it's possible to give an all-encompassing answer. If a couple swore to have a monogamous relationship then adultery would be a breach of that oath, but the 'traditional' oaths used in most weddings are not only about sex, even though the 'traditional' morality that gave rise to them is obsessed with sex to the exclusion of almost all else. They also cover wider issues of caring, supporting and being considerate of each other, and in some cases of adultery these connections seem to have broken down before either partner had sex with anyone else, which makes it a lot more complicated. Not a clear cut moral issue in many cases. Needs to be considered on a case by case basis, preferably by the couple themselves and whoever else is directly involved, and preferably without a lot of prurient gawping by others.



Yes. Rape. Like murder, unambiguously wrong in any and all circumstances. Probably clearer because in the case of murder there can be legitimate arguments about whether an act of killing is justifiable or not. I can't imagine any circumstances in which someone could claim they had to have sex to defend themselves, to defend others, to mete out justice or to further a legitimate state policy - and yes, I do realise that states sometimes encourage rape as an act of war.

Theft. Will be wrong in most circumstances, but there can be cases where insistence on the rights of property without regard to anything else could be a greater wrong than overriding it. There are also cases where legal ownership and moral title are by no means the same thing.

BB,

John Macintyre

Oooh, oooh, what's that line from Sabrina: 'you think that morals are paintings on walls and scruples are money in Russia' lol

Marion.

Dear Marion.



It's worse than that. I've heard ethics is an English county next door to Thuthex! .

BB,

John Macintyre

When you say "stringent set of moral and ethical rules" I'm presuming that someone, or an external authority, decided what your morals and ethics should be? That, as far as I'm concerned, isn't morals or ethics, but being told what to do. After all, is the only reason we don't steal or murder because we are told not to? Or is there some internal reasoning behind it? That's morals and ethics - the internal bit.



Being moral is what allows us to look ourselves in the eye each morning.



Thinking "will I still be able to look myself in the eye tomorrow if I do X or Y".



Do as you would be done by? I also believe in taking responsibility for my own actions, not seeking to blame them on external causes.



As John has said, if folks are careful about their feelings, and the feelings of all those involved (including any people who aren't present) then I see no problem with what goes on between consenting adults.



I'm not in a position to judge anyone who chooses this option. I certainly don't think any woman choosing it will get away lightly from it. As I believe in reincarnation I think the soul gets another chance anyway, and the soul is more important than the body.

Sometimes justified, sometimes not. Again, not in a position to judge those who have murdered. Some have done it through anger, some through revenge, some accidentaly, some because they're fruit-loops. I'm sure each of them felt it was justified at the time, apart from the one who had killed accidentally. If we bear in mind that the person most likely to murder us is our partner, our parents or our children (in that order) it changes the perspective somewhat.

There are many married people in the world. Some of them in close, loving, monogamous relationships, a few of them in close, loving non-monogamous relationships. The problems occur when someone who thinks they are in the former finds out they are in the latter. Adultery occurs for all sorts of reasons, insecurity, unhappiness, revenge, to add spice to a marriage, or consensually betwen grown adults, or sometimes all of these reasons. Again, who am I to judge anyone else for human failings, needs or weaknesses?



Lying - sometimes justified, often not. I'm not talking about white lies, such as "no your bum doesn't look big in that", but the big whoppers that really cause hurt, hatred and disharmony. Things like falsely accusing other people of horrendous acts such as rape or child abuse, or causing the death of thousands of people through statements such as "they can send weapons of mass destruction within 45 minutes" or the crap that gets published in the media. These things are also caused by human weakness and failings, our greed, our insecurity, our own hatred manifested.

I don't know how you fix things like that other than by setting your own example and living your life within the morals that you decide you can live with.

bb
Rhiannon

Depends who's morals we are talking about... I kinda like mine (most of the time)



Circumstance... 33 yrs of living and learning... and (hopefully) being able to grasp every relevant pov



I treat others as they treat me... i don't take advantage of anything weaker than myself... I try to act instead of react



As long as those involved know it's casual.. i say make hay while the sun shines



A situation I've always been very careful not to put myself in a position to have to tackle personally ...... I believe it should remain legal.... having seen the psychological turmoil it's caused in some of my friends.... I hate that it sometimes has to happen.... but it should remain an option



A big area... a wife snaps after years of bruises and broken bones from the fists of their husband and smashes his brains in with the poker... the husband got what was coming to him..... a kid runs a knife up someones belly in the hope of finding enough cash for his next dope fix... stick him in a cell for a good 20yrs..




If you can't be honest with someone you are supposed to love.... why bother being in a relationship at all?



Just about every waking moment... even some that don't directly affect my life...




Hope you enjoyed the chip

Make your own morals! Sort out the consequences of your actions. Like Quasi said!

It's interesting that everyone has talked about morals in how we treat our fellow humans - What about morals in how we treat our environment, the natural world around us?

Dear Dark Rose,



Morals should surely cover our relationship with nature, not just with other human beings. Having said that, call me old fashioned but I hope relations between human and non-human animals do not need to be discussed under the headings of Casual Sex, Abortion and Adultery.

BB,

John Macintyre

Fantastic excellent point DR. I whole heartedly agree and if there is sin (see sin thread) I think environmental destruction is sin!

As long as you can wake up look at youself in the mirror straight in the eye and feel no guilt about what you did the day/night before, you shouldnt go far wrong.

In the words of my ex-husband: "The thing about you Jo is that you have no morals"

The truth is i dont- lmao

gosh - this is a debate that could run and run.

Personally, although I'm not wiccan, I rather hold with the view that your actions should "harm none". With regards to casual sex, just take care and be prepared to face the consequences of unwanted pregnancy and/or disease if you dont, and also make sure that you're not playing with the other person's emotions (they may take the sex thing as meaning more than you do)

Adultery is, to me, a no-no. John Mac sums it up very much as a betrayal of oaths (have i quoted you correctly John?). Dont make a promise you cant keep.

Early abortion is understandable and it is wholly the right of the woman to choose, adoption surely is better than a late abortion. Why "kill" a child when there are people desperate to give an unwanted child unconditional love.

Rape - absolutely morally and socially reprehensible. Dont get me started on that one.

Murder - to me murder is only murder if it is cold-bloodedly planned and executed. Killing to defend yourself or your loved ones and even some crimes of passion shouldn't count as murder, but as a last resort.

I would like to think i live by the principles of judge not or face being judged - ie i dont know all the facts so who am I to comment? and harm none so no-one has any excuse to harm me.

Bright blessings and I hope this isn't too much like moralising waffle

I think so many factors play into morals - including biology and evolution, the need to protect the species for example - and situations do affect whether you consider an act right or wrong.

Good = it makes me feel good. Preferably happy and satisfied, but at least relieved.
Bad = it makes me feel bad. Afraid of punishment or disapprobation, or personally in pain.

Casual sex obviously depends on your sex drive and whether you hurt someone by doing it.

Abortion has to be a personal choice and I can't see it as either good or bad.

Adultery is painful and I can't see what there is to recommend it unless the married parties are in a situation so bad that adultery can't make it worse.

Murder is bad for the surviving relatives, above all.

Myself, I've been told I have no scruples...

Huh? So what's that? some Cyrillic form of currency??

My husbnd was brought up as a Pagan all his life, and the thing that he says is "Morals is only a word - and words have different meanings to different people".
In his life he has never heard of, nor found despite wide spread travels, a single Moral Pagan Code, but all societies have laws and Pagan communities are no different.
So what actually is the debate?
What we think is right, what we think is legal, or therefore illegal?
Both will bring different answers from different people.
As all laws are really just morals made firm! They could be called morals really could't they?

As to "Christian" Laws, well lets be honest the majority of Christian actions and concepts are originally evolved from pagan beliefs in oneway or another. They are purely, singular peoples thoughts or concepts put down on paper to suit their purpose.

The Wiccan "harm none, but do as you will" is a good basic starting point and that's all its meant to be, it's not meant to be taken literally. Thats seems to be where everything goes wrong, people have to or just want to be told definitively what to do or not do. Right and wrong, are only concepts, People should just think for themselves,
I suppose another base line, moral or law could be
"Would you like it to be done to you? If the answer is no, then don't do it."!

I think that there are 2 types of morals, personal morals what we personally think is right from wrong, and social morals what is socially acceptable.

Firstly, I have been taught right from wrong from my parents, so then that becomes my basis for my own set of morals. Some of which will be adapted by my own findings and feelings from the big wild world. As everybody’s upbringing and own perception of life will differ, then so will our personal set of morals. What I think is right, will be wrong for someone else and visa versa.

Secondly, social morals, what society sees as right and wrong, which is enforced upon us, whether we like it or not.

Hmm, alot of interesting points Seawolf...

My parents, being the kind that lived by too many double (if not triple) standards, were useless to me as role models. Fortunately my imperial Prussian grandfather compensated this with the pragmatic self-disciplines and honour codes from the old school of Frederick the Great. It certainly helped draw the line between personal and social expections on the basis of individual respect. It proved to be all that one basically needs to know in building interpersonal relationships.