Just something I was pondering...

Do pagans sin?

I know that we have our own set of moral codes that we all live by, theres the very interesting threat currently dealing with that.. but it got me to thinking about the concept of sin.

Sin is usually the term given to an act, thought, etc that breaks the moral code that is set by a god. So I was wondering for those of you who follow a god or gods, is there an aspect of sin within your belief system?

Before we get into this I want to say that I know that the term is mostly associated with the concept of abrhamic faiths, but putting that to the side. Do your gods or do any pagan gods, stipulate a "form" of faith that breaking or not following.. could be considered to be a sin?

The other aspect of sin is of course forgiveness, can a pagan sin that has been comitted be forgiven or do you learn that you have committed a sin or displeased a god by getting one of those wee "nudges" we all get from time to time and franticly scramble to fix it?

Or is it a totally null concept?

Hi there,

I read in either a book or magaine on Paganism that Pagans have no concept of sin and that sin is a very Christian invention. This is not to say that we don't each have our own very personal moral and ethical codes by which we live our lives, though.

Suzanne

Beat me to it Suzanne!

Yeah... but...

Sin is the concept, in my view, of either breaking faith with your god or offending your god by behaving in a way which is offensive to them.

So it's not necessarily an entirely Christian thing, although the Abrahamic faiths do seem to be very big on it. Maybe it's the way they have a very defined crime + punishment view which does after all form the laws of the land.

Maybe it comes back to morality, and the morals you define for yourself which I guess act as your commandments? And breaking those commandments are what constitute a sin, rather than any god dictating what is/is not good behaviour.

I know that the ancient Romans didn't have a defined concept of sin as such, but the Graeco-Romano mythology has many instances of where a mortal has pissed off a god and has suffered due retribution. Were they sinning? Not necessarily by our modern ideas - gods punishing mortals for disparaging them, for causing harm to a god's favourite etc. But there were instances of humans breaking promises to gods, behaving disrespectfully in the temples etc, which also entailed a punishment. So maybe there was the idea of sin - ie, behaving badly, but it wasn't really defined in the terms devised by the early Christian church (ie, the 7 sins etc).

The gods themselves certainly weren't perfect - plenty of greed and lust going on , so maybe that points even more to there being no idea of "sin" as we understand it.

Maybe all it boils down to is what is right and what is wrong?

Well, what a silly old thread indeed! Of COURSE all those of the paganish persuasion are positively RIDDLED with sin. And some of it's quite "original" too...

What self-respecting witch doesn't own at least one cauldron (big enough to hold a simmering infant) a randy pet goat (black & horny, naturally) a lethal knife (for slitting unsuspecting throats at the culmination of bloody initiation into devilry) a besom with which we control the wind, bringing sailors to their deaths, and lots and lots of very potent, EVULL spells.

The more tastefully inclined among us will also have at least one pile of babies' skulls adorning the odd corner.
And don't get me started on the sexual shennanigans us lot get up to of an evening! Once the pointy hats are off, there's no stopping us!

SIN? We invented it! The O.T. just began writing about it. Presumably to while away the long winter evenings and to provide an alternative pastime to all the incest , sacrifices, and thunderousness they would otherwise have been occupied with...

Sin must be a purely human concept, because I just don't see where it fits in the wild kingdom. Is it really higher intelligence that gives pennance to a huge burocracy of excuses for its need to eat?

I frankly think civilization has lost it where the meaning of survival is concerned. That's the only sin I know of.

I think the idea behind it is different. The Christian concept of sin, as I understand it, is far more like a black mark, to be tallied at the end of your life to determine your afterlife. On the other hand, I'd say most (if not all) Pagans deal more with action and consequence, directly: you do A, and B will happen. Deal with it.

And then of course there is the absence of a strictly defined list of 'sinful behaviour', classified down to it's 'sinfulness'. I think it is this absence of the strictly defined listings that keeps the idea of 'sin' out of Paganism.

Ok - great question which I have been wrangling with of late. Coming from a churchy perspective sin is our turning away from God and requires us to repent and be forgiven, and that forgiveness comes through the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus. Not saying i believe this necessarily. If there is sin, then how do we get 'forgiven' if we don't believe in Jesus and cross etc. If there is sin, then do we need salvation and if so how? Hmmmm <Andrew scratches head> Gonna give up and sup my G&T

tsh, I see sin as a catholic/christian ect belief, they have odd concepts, such as sex before marriage is a sin! which it obviously isn't, as a wee bairn I was taught if you sin, it leaves black marks on your soul, and if you get to many then god doesn't allow you in to heaven, so you have to go to confession and confess your sins (everything bad you've ever done ! oh my) on a regular basis, to make sure you stay pure and free of all those little black marks. But, since I don't believe the whole heaven concept going on, I think i'm free to sin as much as I like and simply enjoy life!

laws of Dharma?

The phrase 'as miserbale a sin' has just sprung to mind, it always confused me that, cos some types of 'sinning' can be really fun!

However, I think that on a more serious note, that sin is about transgression, repentance and forgiveness. Perhaps from a Christain perspective, you have this idea of turning away from God or his teachings/commandments etc, needing to feel and say sorry and needing external 'fogiveness'.

As Pagans, we've all got a moral compass of some sort, some places or lines we do not cross, its all very individual.

On a personal level, i've occasionally done things that I'm not proud off. When my moral compass has wobbled its been up to me to right what I'd put wrong, sorry is an action not a word.

Q

- as in "my karma ran over your dogma"?

Ooh somethings been scratching in my head wanting to get out. It was Kipling...

Do not tell the priest of our plight
For he would call it sin
But we've been out in the woods all night
Conjuring summer in.

Q

What a fantastic little verse Queenie!! Love it

If there are Gods and other divine beings then it's not unreasonable to suppose they are so far in advance of us that they are unlikely to be mortally offended by our shortcomings - particularly if you subscribe to the view that we are created by them - they shoulda made a better job of it!

I have to agree with Richard Dawkins when he said on his documentary The Root Of All Evil
If God wants to forgive us our sins, why not just do it, instead of the big production number sacrificing Jesus for our sake.

As for us sinning, though I wouldn't use that word - I think we've all done things we now regret when you stand back and take stock of yourself. You respond to it by putting things right where practical, or if not, then learning from it, and with that knowledge consider how you would act again in a similar set of circumstances. As for punishing yourself: I suppose there may be some instances where this might be of short term benefit but this can all to easily turn into a cycle of misdeed and chastisement, which misses the point in thinking seriously about your conduct.

I think it should all come down to what is right and wrong. For the most part it should be a global thing. It is not right to wreck and torture our environment, it is not right to harm another in cold blood, it is not right to rape/murder/abuse etc. I believe it is nothing to do with "Sin". Sin can only exist if you have to feel guilty or confess to someone else.
You should be your own conscience.
On the day to day stuff, the smaller things it is a personal sense of what is right and wrong. What "feels" right for you, live by your own moral code, feel comfortable in your own skin and sleep in peace at night.
Does the way you live make you smile, or bow your head?
Only you know this and this I believe is what we should live by.

According to Orchid! Hahaha

Orchid
X

I saw an episode of Malcolm in the Middle today, the one where they join a church to get free day care for their new baby. Dewy (the small one) finds it hard to understand, and delivers a very thought provoking idea about the nature of god's relation to us. The basic idea was; he had been told that he was like an ant in comparason to god, and a person understanding the mind of god would be like an ant trying to understand his mind. He then said that he had been out in the garden looking at an ant hill, trying to work out which were the good ants and which were the bad. He couldn't tell them apart and just started smiting them all. He then summised that all we can really do is try our best to be good people and not worry about what we can't do anything about. Then he left the bible study's teacher confused.

Oh, the wisdom telly provides.

Chris xx