Hello,

In authoring a blog concerning local history and folklore I beleive I may have inadevertantly upset a local coven.

I posted information regarding a sacred site which I think has aggrovated a coven that actually uses it. I know this can be seen as quite a major missdemeanor and have obviously removed the article in question straight away. I was aware of a number of groups of people that used the site before I published the article and knew none of them would have any problems with other people knowing about it, so therefore it's quite likely that knowledge of the location will spread anyway. What I obviously didn't know is that someone is perhaps using the site who would rather it is kept secret.

My weblog is here //moelbryn-eastnor.blogspot.com
The most recent post explains the occurence that has got me worried.

I'd be interested to know what others think about this situation. Have I actually done anything especially bad? Am I a complete b*stard or merely a fool? I don't envisage the location in question receiving a great deal of extra visitors due to the article although I know it has led some people to go and find it, and these are no longer the times of witch hunts. I also think people should be able to find out about the site and go and see it or make use of it if they so wish. The whole idea behind the weblog was to help pass on and document information about local history that could otherwise be lost.

Except of course it seems this is quite probably not entirely history after all.

Also how worried should I be that I may have got myself on the wrong side of a coven?

And does anyone have any suggestions as to what i might be able to do to help make things right?

Have you checked if the site is already listed on TMA? Not much isn't. As such, if you want to write about it, write about it and cover your back by listing 'other sources of information' or 'further reading' or open with:

"As listed on TMA, this site...blahblah"

A coven does not have soul ownership of the land. It is not the landed gentry, the site and its energy does not belong to them. If you want to write about it, write about it. Keep these places alive. The odd person popping by with a camera is not going to destroy the balance. Coven loonies prancing about with their crystal tiaras is more likely to upset the balance of things. Besides, if they're any good they'll cast a mystification spell so's people end up driving 'round in circles and never finding it lol

Don't let precious people put you off. They probably take issues with most things, you just happened to stumble upon them. Two fingers up and enjoy what you enjoy doing mate. They'll either get over it or implode - a win win situation.

Best wishes,

Marion.

Oh, and if you think you've got yourself on the wrong side of them mate, give us a nod. People that ridiculous are about as harmful as a water pistol on a hot day.

What a bunch of loons! Do they honestly believe they have exclusive rights to access the site? Presumably they don’t know about the other groups who use the area – which just astonishes me. Did they put a confundus spell a la Hogwarts in the hope of deceiving other people into not knowing about it? Maybe they should set up a timeshare?! Never heard anything so ridiculous. Talk about delusions of grandeur… Have you somehow revealed a place which will now be overrun by hoardes of maurading pagans?? Like Thinair said, the more the site is used (appropriately – ie not for dog-fouling and dropping litter), the more alive and restored it will become. If you haven’t breached copyright, if you haven’t encouraged anyone to break into a restricted area (MOD firing range, designated ancient monument etc), if you haven’t encouraged vandalism, then frankly this coven should jump on their brooms. The land, and the ancient sites thereon, are there for all of us to enjoy and honour. Even if it’s from afar as is the case with Stonehenge.

I do know of groups who act as caretakers for some small sites. But they do so as custodians, in order that the site can “function” and so that others can enjoy. They certainly don’t do it with a view to keeping it all for themselves.

The wights and spirits talk to whomever they please, they certainly don’t need a bunch of jumped-up, no doubt crushed-velvet-cloaked wearing, “we all come from the Goddess and survived the burning times” fascists to tell them who may and may not approach them.

Another interpretation is that someone has turned up with a printout of your blog and said, "Hey, seen this, we're famous!"

And someone else has said, "It's doesn't matter, just throw it in the fire."

Or, "Oh good, I need some paper to get this fire going!"

...

.....

........ Now there's an idea

Hmmm...£500 x 12, + £15,000........

*goes off to find a calculator and wave goodbye to her student debt problems*

I can just echo what Thinair and Pomona said.

Hey mate,



Couldn't disagree with you more there. Did the coven ask the local people's permission before holding their rituals there? I'm sure there are many sacred sites about Britain that are used for private/coven activities, but if I’m out to visit one I’m not about to go looking them up to ask. I think the idea that by talking about a sacred site you're suddenly going to encourage a huge tourist trail is a little far fetched, especially if it really is far from the madding crowd - most new age tourists won't go look at anything you have to walk more than 10 ft from the car to take a picture of. The really big tourist sites are the one that are literally right on a main road, or close enough from to get a picnic hamper over the wall. Even so, Tinkinswood is just off a well used road and it's dead as the dodo most the year round, especially in the middle of the night when self respecting heathens go rollin' about nakkid in the mud.

It would be interesting to post asking about the ethical issues of publicising sites on TMA, I don't think you'd find many antiquarians who really give a rats fart what the local wiccan tribe get up to around there.

My main gripe is you're suggesting that a local, modern 'witches coven' are the rightful guardians of the stone circle and that somehow they are likely to be most in-tune with it and have precedence over being there. I'm not being awful mate (well, maybe just a little), but really - c'mon. Likely the coven's not been running more than 10 odd years (although always claiming descent from the mid-to-late-60s) it'll be full of people you really don't want to get stuck in a lift with proudly upholding the spiritual intellect of a small fungal infection. Whereas it's true that places do absorb some of what goes on around them, we are all seriously shagged if the stones themselves are that easily swayed by a bunch a 'narnars. In the time it takes the stones to breath one breath, 20 generations of man have passed. What's that saying: 'Don't change the site, let the site change you'

Sorry to anyone who is in a coven, you've joined this forum so you must be sharper than your average marble lol No offence intended, but it would be crass to pretend that the covens of today hold the spiritual inheritance of tomorrow in all it's full glory.

If a group of 13 (or whatever the going rate is now) witches can't deal with one curious local or a couple of tourists... doesn't say a lot for 'em really. If what they're up to is so much of a secret that you cannot dare to be seen by anybody - hire a friggin' hall and lock the doors. Maybe they could nail a sign to a tree when it's in use...or just pop some skulls on sticks around the place to frighten people off.

'Concern for the site' is honestly and often not the first thought of people like that. And yes, I am going to make this sweeping generalisation because its true in the majority of cases. The type of people Nimrod's talking about have self-pretence, self-worth and self-importance at their core. The site, after any of those, is secondary.

Best wishes,

Marion.

Oh, i'm sorry, we appear to have found one of Marion's buttons

Agree with you 100% Thinair.

Besides, just who do you contact? How do you ensure that you're contacting everyone who uses the sites? You can't possibly be sure that you've contacted EVERYONE who uses the site!

And... the land and the site doesn't belong to any human (other than legal papers). It belongs to the spirits and frankly I think that THEY are the only beings which need to be consulted as to whether it's all right to use the site. Or to publicise it. Anyone who takes on the responsibility of caring for the site should know that they are only the custodians - they are not the judge and jury.

Oh P, don't get me started, please don't get me started. *COU-ollri-GHt*.

To be honest, I think we're all doomed anyway lol Capitalism, jealousy and possession has infiltrated so much of what we had left, might as well pack up 'n' go home now.

There's a wonderful line Fay Sampson uses in Wise Woman's Telling where the old wise crone comes out to find Merlin consecrating land for a Christian alter - she's utterly aghast and angry until he looks her dead in the eye and says something to the effect of: "We were here at the first, let's see who is here at the last".

I think it's likely to be a very, very close photo finish

Nimrod: (re) publish and be damned! (LOL)
I too agree with the better informed posters who have replied to your original query. If they can't clear up after, they are muppets and deserve scorn. As for them being upset? Tough. Any group with the real interests of a place at heart will not be concerned by you disseminating information, nor would they leave litter! Also, I very much doubt you would hold information which would cause harm/worry to a real Craft group - as opposed to the more recently spawned muppet types mentioned...
I also congratulate you on your blog spot. The photos are really amazing, very proffessional, and evocative. Well done.
And I repeat: Republish & be damned! (Only you need have no worries on THAT score!)

(Hmmm. Seems Thinair and I share similar angst buttons... )

Agreed
Nimrod: (re) publish and be damned!

Yes, as the others said Nimrod, Get the item reposted on your blog and to hell or where ever with the idiots. They have NO god or nature given right to try keeping a site to themselves.
In fact, just to be sure every one knows, post it on here as well

And The Modern Antiquarian under 'field notes'.

wouldnt worry about the coven at all.

Coven? Oh - THOSE things...
Read a book about them once. If I remember correctly...

Yeah! any chance the rest of us could have a nosey at your article?

Me too! I would like to see the article as well.... As for those who use the site, Well firstly I echo what other people have said about it not being their property. If you hold outdoor rituals you always have the possibility of muggles comming along. It's one of the risks you take and if you don't like it then don't do outdoor rituals in a PUBLIC place.

I wouldn't worry about the covern, if they haven't the inteligence to work that out they are proberbly not much good at magic either.

Put your article back up, take your apology down. Tell them to piss off and that they don't own the effing tree. You weren't disrespecting the area or the Wights in writing about it so why the hell should they be bothered? What are they, the effing thought police?!They're just playing power games. Arseholes!!

All you've seen from them is some kids burning your article which means they're big on show and probably rely on headology to get people to do what they want. I bet they're a right bunch of nanas really

what Elswyth says Too often now you get groups saying 'but that bits ours!' WTF! Unless they've coughed up and bought it the land/tree/stones ain't theirs at all tis just powerplays/we're better'n you/uptheirownarse so bugger 'em
would like to see the article too pet

these are the funniest replies iv ever read, it sure did make me smile.

As a Wiccan myself,(although Following Druidic paths nowadays) I say retract your apology and republish your article.

If you have upset a coven, too bad, they'll get over it, they don't own the exclusive right to the place, and they should stop being anal about it.

You have done nothing wrong at all.

Cheers, Midori

Heh.

there are some strange folks in this neck of the woods, and some stranger covens.

Have you talked to the wights about it? If they're happy with your presence, what else matters? As has been said, they're the only real owners of the land, whatever it might say on paper somewhere lodged with Land Registry, or what people might claim due to their desires.

Very many covens do not even consider talking to the landwights about their preferences, nor offer them anything. And landwights who dislike company have the ability to make that felt so people don't wish to visit certain places. If the place 'feels' good it's usually an indication about the wight to begin with. And if a tree is involved, talk to the tree.

<shakes head and goes off muttering>

actually witch hunts and the burning times are very unfortunatly alive in many places you might want to research a bit better in the future.. http://www.witchway.net/times/times.html take a look and you'll see its still happening.

Sorry Fauna, I'm not quite clear what your point is.

Are you saying that the late mediaeval so-called Burning Times are a fact (as the link seems to suggest)?

And what relevance is that to the article Nimrod wrote?

What "research" should he have done?

The lists don't seem to make any differentiation between people who might have been witches and those merely accused of witchcraft. Or is this not a valid distinction for the purpose of claiming martyrs?

I'm surprised the site would want to associate itself with African witchcraft without any disclaimers. Have you come across bad forms of Muti and ntagat? It is that, or similar, sorts of witchcraft that the people listed would be accused of before being killed. If modern Western witches wish to honour those killed for being witches, does it matter what sort of witchcraft?

You have to look for it, but there is the phrase "these are no longer the times of witch hunts" mentioned in passing in Nimrod's article.

Oh good Gods, I thought I hadn't heard the 'The Burning Times' malarky for a bit.

Heh.

Some things just won't die, will they?

Apart from the nine billion gazillion (insert number of choice) Witches that were burnt alive because they were empowered womyn

Glug...glug.....glug....belch....."All together now:

"In the cool of the evening, they used to gather...." "

I confess I rather like the song. Admittedly some of the historical details may not be entirely and unambiguously correct, not to mention complete fantasy but, and it's quite an important but, anyone who loves Scottish folk songs, or the folk songs of any other people, will know that the historical details therein may not be entirely and unambiguously correct either. But we still like singing them.

The only real difference I can see between 'Burning Times' and many, much-loved, folk songs is that the former was written rather more recently and the English are not specifically singled out for blame .

BB,

John Macintyre

My goodness, John! It's a bit early to be havin' a wee dram, isn't it?

<Moonhunter goes off to lie down and recover...>

So they're not typically Scottish then?!

Please explain this concept!

Seconded!!!

First of all I don't understand the early thing and secondly I don't understand the 'wee' bit - whiskey is better drunk in large quantities, no?

Damn, you've discovered my weakness....

I wouldn't call it a weakness....erm.....yeah.

*walks off looking for a bottle of Grouse*

Blimey!

not been here for ages due to not using a computer for a long while (Woo!). Thanks for all your replies! The post has returned, altough unfortnately still not with the lovely photos it had originally which i must sort out.

Hadn't realised I'd cause such a stir there!

Thanksagain for all your comments! It was some entertaining reading,

Peace x

Not sure how helpful 'coven loonies' is as a comment! I work with a group who do long-term workings at various sites, we're not 'tiara wearing' idiots, and we take our workings seriously. I agree this group don't own the site, but dismissing them like this is a bit blinkered I think. Maybe if the original poster contacted them for a discussion he may find some answers that explain their point of view.