I was wondering... the news goes on about fanatics and extremists within particular religions...

does that mean that there are extremists and fanatics amongst the pagan community?

what would an extremist pagan do?

or is it that because pagans can never agree on what paganism actually is that we are too argumentative and disparate (is that the word i mean?) to have a common front for extremists to come from?

Ooooh, good/contentious issue lol

Have you seen Pasher's sig btw?

Ermn. I guess so, but often if you're below a certain minority number you're sort of looked on as a bit eccentric rather than fundamentalist

I think I maybe class myself in that category a little as I do have a mild allergic reaction to Christians on the whole. There are some I’ve found to be okay at a distance but I hold my hand up to being a bit of a bigot on that point I’m afraid. I call it 'positive discrimination' - or 'readjusting the balance of power'

I'm afraid I can be a bit unpleasant to 'em sometimes, mind you, I get that way with other groups of nutters too. It's not a healthy reaction to have because sometimes you are surprised (rarely) and I do admit to being more open-hearted should someone like a Hari Krishna come up to me in the street (usually because they give me free books ).

It's funny you bring this up actually, I was analysing my response to someone earlier. I'd just got into uni and was swigging me coffee and flicking through the paper when a very softly spoken and polite young woman came up to me and said 'hello, I’m from the c-*muffle* union, I was wondering if you had five minutes so that I could ask you a few questions?'

'Sorry, from the who?'

'The Christian Union.'

'Err, I’m a pagan'.

'Oh, that doesn't matter...'

'Sorry luv, I’m not interested'.

Very simple interaction but the point is, if she'd been from the Federation of Little Buddhas, I probably would have given her five minutes. I didn't because she was a Christian - and because, instead of explaining what her survey was about as a bridge into conversation, she put her religious affiliation first. When I did the same, she used the terminally irritating phrase (and tone of voice): 'oh, that doesn't matter'.

Well, I dunno, might do. Depends what your survey is about. As it happens, it does mean that I don't have five minutes for you.

I did feel a bit bad because I was really vehement in my closing line and I think she wandered off a bit confused (seems to be the standard mental state of Christian folk anyway, but...)

But, ermn. Dunno. I don't have much time for 'em I think is what I’m saying, as they don't tend to have much time for us. Live and let live well alone. If it makes me a fundi or a bigot then I can live with that and sleep at night

I guess there must be a few fundi Pagans, tend to be gits and gems in all walks of life - pagans are but human too so display the full range of emotions. The fundis tend to come in the guise of 'AVENGE THE BURNING TIMES!!!" - usually newcomers to the faith looking for an axe to grind to release inbuilt tensions about other insecurities they probably have. Same way so many Christians go shouting on the streets about the mercy of god and the salvation of our souls whilst some starvin' Big Issue seller stands on-looking from a doorway.

Best wishes,

Marion.

Going to move this to General Pagan as it's too good for The Snug

When i think of "fanatical pagans" i get 2 images in my head:

Fanatic 1
"Do what ye will, lest i smite thee with the awesome power of nature"

This extremist has taken is clad in pentagrams and all other "pagan" parafenalia. Maybe they are a goth or some other such person. But they think paganism is "da bomb". They watch too many BtVS episodes and believe they can do "spells". So they go round saying that they will place curses and hexes and such on people or that they all ready know everything about you before you've even met them.

Fanatic 2
"Save the trees and bacteria and i eat nothing but twigs harvested under a full moon that have fallen to the ground and face south"

The "eco-warrior" type that would smite you with their might mace of wood and bring "the old ways" back. They waffle on about the sanctity of nature and how everyone should be vegans. Yes nature is sacred, but they use this as an excuse to berate people for everything rather than actually doing something about it. They are "in touch" with themselves and those around them. They might wear green or browns as a sign of their closeness to nature. Maybe they have dredlocks and are proud of their unkempt and unwashed appearance saying that "they are living in harmony with bacteria and such". Bad breath, an odd smell, and other such things.


If this describes anyone then I am sorry.

Then there are those who think that any Pagan who talks with people from other faith groups must be a plastic Pagan, naive or even a plant by people of that faith group. (I wonder if there is anyone here who could guess who I'm refering to.... a clue- they have a website that purports to, and often does, out examples of anti Pagan activity. Just doesn't always get the facts quite a straight as they could)

BB

Mike

another form of pagan fundi are the ones who bang on continually about gaining acceptance for the pagan faiths, and decrying the way we are portrayed, stereotyped and generally miss represented in the media and by the public as a whole.

These people then go on to make the same generalisations and stereotyping of others (particularly Christian faiths) Claiming all Christians are out to send us all to hell, have no understanding or respect of pagans and other faiths or all Christian Clergy are paedophiles etc etc...

This simply isn't true, yes there are extremists in any faith be they Pagan, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Jew, Rastafarian, Zoroastrian, Satanist, I could go on but you get the picture.

Well there are such tossers as "King Kev" but I don't think that really has anything to do with actual Paganism!

Well, my fav. saying, "suck it and see" has on occassion been misconstrued! Like, daft buggers thinking I am suggesting unnatural practices with goats! Of course they CAN be forgiven for that - after all, don't ALL pagany peoplpe get up to weird and perverse practices? (Although I no longer need to practice, having perfected the art!)

There are also the Moot Regulars. They tend to hold forth to anyone dopey enough to listen about "being of the Wicca". They usually quaff cider. Or Bloody Maries. They Wear large shiny pentagrams, sometimes intertwined with serpents/oakleaves. They often have beards. Even the female ones. And either sandals, or goth boots. Black lace clad ones vie with denim and dreadlock wearing ones for supremacy. They are either extremely "au natural" or else plastered in pale gunk. They are very earnest. They ask about your star sign. Depending on what it is, they will either latch onto you (forever)(a bit like cat hairs) or else sneer, before resuming the hunt elsewhere. They rant loudly about the Witch Burning Times. Without knowing that the Pope still retains the official role of Inquisitor.
They are quite good fun to play with. A bit like mousies. There are LOTS of them about.

Cern and Herne both summed up my idea of Pagan fundies.

Another description for fundies could, quite conceivably, be bigot.

oh, and btw, my star sign is Cygnus X-1 !

So, instead of consigning the buggers to Room 101, it's the dreaded Black Hole for them eh?!

Hang on a mo...

1) i like quaffing cider
2) i have a small pentacle i wear on a chain
3) i like wearing sandles (without socks i might add)
4) i did once try and grow a beard
5) i like going "au natural"

OMG I'm a FUNDI!!!! ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

I won't tell if you don't tell!

Just reread my posting of earlier - and realised there were important ommissions...
Moot Regulars: so called because they regularly talk Sh***e.
Response to the female Stragazy ones: "Huh! Stymphalian birds! What do THEY know about star signs!" Before trundling off with a superior shake of the noggin.

(Tas makes mental note to stop being cruel.)

[quote=Herneoakshield,Feb 7 2007, 08:03 PM]
another form of pagan fundi are the ones who bang on continually about gaining acceptance for the pagan faiths, and decrying the way we are portrayed, stereotyped and generally miss represented in the media and by the public as a whole.

I must confess to having been one of these, in my youth, however, in my defence, I will just add that this was in the early eighties, when it was still handbags at 20 paces between the Alexandrians and the Gardinarians. I hope I've learned to be a bit more tolerant since then, or at least, to keep my more fundi opinions to myself. Now, I tend to reserve my scorn for fluffies, as most christians don't have individual opinions, and are no fun to wind up.

QUOTE: "Now, I tend to reserve my scorn for fluffies, as most christians don't have individual opinions, and are no fun to wind up."



Like I said, let's all go play with the nice fluffy mousies!

For me, the 'Fundi' Pagan is the one with the 'I art more Pagany than thou' attitude. We are a diverse bunch, with no single set of believes/values/book of words.

However, people who subscribe to the believe that 'their' particular brand of paganism is the only brand of paganism to have any merit, or is the one and only 'true' path tend to make me want to vomit over their shoes.

Q

You betcha Tas, they're all just another Riemann distortion of space-time to me!

Well it's a good job you like going au natural then or you'd have a right mucky shirt with all that quaffing!!

I think the summations here are pretty spot on. Have to agree with Pomona too Bigot hits the nail firmly on the head.

I have to say Marion Im really surprised I didnt think you were as intollerant as that! I think you took the girl completely the wrong way. She didnt introduce her religion first.. she told you what group she was coming from.. Christian Union, same as saying, Student Union, University Debating Society or Swim Club! And I dont think she meant to belittle your beliefs by saying "it doesnt matter" what she MAYBE meant was... It doesnt matter what religion you are for the purposes of this survey...

Now I could be wrong, and she could have been very rude and a bit of a numpty, in which case it was probably a deserved reaction...

Thats not to say I dont feel my skin crawl when I walk past the eejits in towns preaching hellfire and brimstone, the ones who look at you like you slithered out from under a rock and yes.. I do subconciously roll my eyes when I see people walking about with their WWJD armbands and t-shirts and fish on their cars. Again mostly because those are the people who seem to want to pin me in a corner and bore the hell outta me, without being able to allow me to share my POV.

IMO, your own personal spiritual beliefs are just that - personal to you.
Noone can tell you that it's right or wrong, and equally, you shouldn't judge the beliefs of others.

I think that fundamentalists and bigots are people who are just insecure about their own beliefs, so they have to belittle other beliefs to make them feel better or to convince themselves (more than others) that they're right.

Personally, I'm happy and secure enough with my beliefs that I don't feel I need to stand on the street shouting about 'em, or trying to get others to believe the same!

There is so much more to someone than just their faith - if you disregard what religion they are, do you have anything in common? I would think so, at least one thing!

I don't think what Marion did was particularly intolerant. Nothing says you have to talk to them. So maybe she would have chatted with buddhists or hare krishnas but maybe that's because there's the possibility of a free exchange of ideas as opposed to the 'you're wrong and going to hell' thing. When they see you I swear these bells go off in their heads, trumpets play and they think 'save that soul for team Jesus!!!'

In my experience - university Christiansoc members are rabid in the extreme, usually evangelical - promising free cheese toasties to lure you in and then surrounding you in their Jesus t-shirts when you take them up on the offer of free food before subjecting you to fire and brimstone.

Still, their flyers come in handy for certain activities that Mr Tony Blair doesn't approve of but that a lot of students do.



I know a Pagan with a fish on her car....Jofreya, are you there?!!

She can't get rid because it's sort of graven into the boot door and won't do what I tell her and turn it into a cartoon fish with big smacker lips.

Reminds me of James Randi - he has one with legs and Darwin written inside. Apparently, on seeing it, a lot of people say, "Oh, so you're an episcopalian!"

What's an episcopalian?

Ah sorry, oops

It's a branch of the Anglican church, north american usually, that's governed by bishops, but it's usually used to describe those who have a conflicting view from the usual take on social or theological matters.

Dear PB28,



Probably dress up like like an extra from a National Theatre of Brent remake of Lord of the Rings and proceed to make an absolute prat of themselves on television!

In a world crawling with mad, wicked, religious fanatics who are only too willing to blazon their fantasies across the mutilated bodies of as many other people as possible, that's actually rather nice.

BB,

John Macintyre

I'm not sure that's fanatical as such, just misguided. A lot of them are people still finding their feet I think - still enticed by Charmed and Buffy, not quite bringing it down onto a sustainable level. Although you have just described quite a few coven leaders and HPs lol



I'd be careful with that one. Paganism and ecology do tend to go hand in hand and whereas the majority are perhaps just vegy/vegan/recyclers/eco-conscious, some may choose to take it further. Would you call Buddhists who adhere to sweeping the floor and a vegetarian diet fundis? I don't think to lump eco-awareness and fundamentalism together quite fits. Some people can get quite assertive about what they believe to be the way forward on ecology but they are having to shout over a room full of people who aren't interested, so six and two threes



And this is fundamentalist...?



Don't you dare slate the locks mate. You'll put me out of business! Dreadlocks are cool, they make people look funky, they attract the opposite sex and they're easy to maintain! Get yours now!

*grumble grumble*

Well, the dress and hair are my ex to a T lol, but he was quite hygienic. I saw his transition from career-oriented omnivorous materialist to dreaded vegan Buddhist over the space of five years. Funny I had fallen in love with the former and decided to leave the latter lol However, I wouldn't call him a fundi by any stretch of the imagination. It was a lifestyle choice. It was be different to what many would choose to do, but when you start tarring difference with the brush of 'nutter' you're getting into a bad headspace.

Plus, I don't think any of the above would denote you specifically as a pagan nutter at that point.

Best wishes,

Marion.

No Els, you are totally right! I didnt mean that she should speak to them. I just meant that maybe her (self admitted) bias.. made her see a bible basher where there wasnt one, thats all. The girl could just have been going to do a survey on the religious make up of the Uni and was letting her know what club/group she was from as a way of an introduction.. thats all.

The PF used to have quite a bad reputation for being a fundi organisation, that was some years back and they do seem to have mellowed a lot since then. CoA I think now wear that mantel lol It tends to be a phase quite a few pagan dis-organisations go through on their way to striking a balance. A lot of organisations end up with a splinter group of people who want to be more hard-line and feel the original group is too 'fluffy' or inactive. You do get the Jeesus complex in a lot of pagan groups where one person wants to be Sanders or Gardner, I guess they could be considered fundis.

Best wishes,

Marion.

Re: above comment on 'Jesus comples'

Well, live 'n' learn Xalle

To be honest Els, I just can't be fooked with 'em. I've had some abominable conversations with Christians, beginning from the time I left a mixed-faith school (Hindu/non-denom xian) school in Leicester and entered a CofE. The teachers were more bigoted against heathens than the kids to begin with but their prejudice filters down. For crying out loud, they pulled my mother into the school to discuss why I wasn't taking part in communion or praying at the end of the school day! They picked the wrong woman to have that conversation with. A lot of it I was oblivious to but even in secondary school kids coming up from the primary years later were spewing crap their Christian numb-nut parents thought was a healthy and standard line of thought.

Time after time Christians proved themselves to be prats. I had one try to convert me when I was seriously ill once. I was incapacitated with vomiting, staying in a half-way house for the night and this woman comes up and says 'don't tell anyone otherwise I might lose my job, but I am going to pray over you and put angels by your bed side and when you recover you will be a great messenger for god'. I've told this story before, where she said 'now the angels are here you won't be sick again' - 5 minutes after she left the room I spewed all over the duvet lol Gave her some food for thought.

In a similar vein I’ve known Christians who were very sweet on appearance - very nice people on the whole who are just seriously wrong in the head. A friend who was a lovely girl, we got on well until other friends told me she was telling them she was worried that I would go to hell and being pagan was bad for my mental health.

The list of such stories goes on and on and on. I have a serious problem with Christianity, it really is an unhealthy, misguided, ridiculous religion. Yes, there are one or two nice teachings and good ideas, but that does not make it, as a whole, worthwhile. As such, anyone who follows that (i.e. a Christian) I view as buying in to something very ill-thought out and a little bit silly. In the same way I wouldn't choose to sit down and reason with a suicide bomber about the will of Allah, I wouldn't choose to sit down and discuss anything that particularly matters spiritually with a Christian because I don't think they have a lot worth saying. Some do, very rarely there is a surprise, but if you go expecting that it is a constant disappointment. If you don't expect anything, it is a nice glowy feeling.

So, in a way Xalle is right, I am incredibly intolerant of 'em, but as I’ve already said, I have absolutely no issues with that part of myself and I sleep quite happily. You are also right though in that often there's good reason to be discriminatory about certain things and you don't have any obligation to sit and talk to anyone, it's a mutual choice as to who talks about what to who.

Cheese toasties eh? Was only tea and toast at ours - outside the union after club nights lol Trying to watch a xian reason with a 12-pints-down sports monkey at 3am did have some hilarious consequences.

Best wishes,

Marion.

Ermn, yus, which is why I was analysing my response to that encounter later in the day......

Yup, I can well imagine the reaction of the other party as something like this-

"Gee, what is it about pagans that they get so uptight about religion?"

Lol *nods* I think I was her first actually Quas

Actually, to be honest, if it wasn't my paganism that put me off Christianity, my sexual orientation and being a feminist and pro-choicer certainly would. See, I can think of lots of reasons not to like it

OK, extremists and fanatics. The ones you hear about are usually trying to get people locked up, change the school curriculum, set off a bomb, overthrow a government or even an entire civilisation - I think there are going to be fewer pagans involved in this than people of organised religions. You might get a pagan who is an animal rights extremist, but is that because they're pagan or because they belong to an animal rights group?

But you do get pagans trying to change the curriculum I suppose.

And why not?

As long as they don't bomb or hex the education authorities... then they aren't extremists but reasonable people.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Always thought that was an interesting expression.

When the Irish and the Welsh were bombing the English, was that fanaticism or a 'just cause'? Can fanaticism ever achieve something?

Well t'was only meant with a bit of humour. Not a SERIOUS thing... Actually i think dredlocks can be great, it was just there was this bloke at uni who had dreds and he was ever so slightly religious (Xtian) and so just got an image stuck in my head.

No offence intended...

Errr...no offence taken mate. Sh!t, I forgot the again didn't I?

*passes PB the salt*

It might help to explain that I is a loctician, mon. It's how I pay part of my way through uni (actually quite good money!) - plugplugplugplug work in affiliation with Dreadworx.

Dreadlocks are actually very clean and hygienic, they look nice, smell fresh, attract women (and men), require very little upkeep once they are matured and will be a welcome addition to any head of hair...

Order yours today.

Best wishes,

Marion.

That was the first thought into my mind when I thought about fundie pagans too I'm all for diversity and healthy debate but I've met a few who are utterly convinced they know the secrets to being a pagan and if your path is different you will never be a truly pagan as they!

Oh my god! It's the dreaded vegan buddhist! Save yourself!

This is a very reassuring thread. If the massed intellectual wattage on this forum can't agree on what a fanatical Pagan is, and come up with a variety of examples none of which are worse than company best avoided, then most of the proto-fanatical Pagans out there probably spend their entire lives trying to work out how to be fanatical, and the handful who get that sorted merely develop social skills that cause other folk to edge away sharpish.

Once we've taken over the world, there'll be a welcome change in newspaper headlines. We'll start to see things like:

"FANATICAL PAGAN TERRORIST OUTRAGE IN DUNDEE!!!!!

A Hard Line Fanatical Pagan Terrorist Cell mounted a major strike on crowded Hill Street yesterday evening! Security forces rushing to the scene were dismayed to find thousands of passers by completely unaware that anything had happened. Closer to the epicentre, grim scenes of hundreds of people sound asleep, dozens wandering dazedly around saying "Aye, but wait a minute....", and Tas Mania winding the perpetrators up, rapidly flooded onto TV screens around the world. Police made several arrests on charges relating to dress-sense likely to cause a breach of the peace."

We can hope, anyway.

BB,

John Macintyre

(sigh) Gone are the days of Abbie Hoffman, who gathered the great circle of eclectic believers together in America to levitate the Pentagon!
Where has all the flair of diametrically abstruse ideas gone?

Made me laugh out loud....I am cracking up, Laughing alone in my empty house

Me too.

BB

Mike

I honestly have absolutely NO recollection of the event Officer. I had spent the evening before in the Screaming Skull in Fintry, where I had repaired after a day trudging in the Ochills with my two faithfull friends - Shep and Spot. We had been rounding up horses for the Wallace's Pie company.

I can only surmise that the faithfull hounds had somehow continued their canine chores and consequently begun rounding up these awful Pagan perpetrators.

I have witnesses who will testify that, at the time of the alleged offences, I was engaged in Pie Scraping research as part of my disseratation on "What Makes Dundonians Tick?" POssibly this is where the confusion has arisen M'Lud?

I can assure the members of the jury, I never ever wilfully set out to "wind up with intent to cause an affray". I am, when all is said and done, a peace loving person, albeit of the Paganish persuasion. I ask the jury to take this into consideration before passing sentence.

lmao

Glad to be of service Herneoak - glad to be of service!

Els- u bloody grass-lol- right thats it- Jefo the fish gets it- hee hee