Hi Eagledance, I hope this information is of use as a basic background. I am willing to help you all I can with info if you'd like me to. We culd do it as PM.

Cernunnos, a horned/antlered god worshiped in both Britain and France as a god of the hunt, the harvest, fertility, and sometimes of the underworld as well.
His parents are Mider and Fuamnach. His brothers would be Arawn (god of dead) and Anpao (god of death).
The Romans identified him with Mercury as a 'psychopompos' or leader of souls to the underworld.

CERNUNNOS Horned god of virility. Cernunnos wears the torc (neck-ring) and is ever in the company of a ram-headed serpent and a stag. Extremely popular among the Celts, the Druids encouraged the worship of Cernunnos, attempting to replace the plethora of local deities and spirits with a national religion. The Celts were so enamored of Cernunnos that his cult was a serious obstacle to the spread of Christianity.
In the Marvel Universe he has been described as a god of the hunt. Cernunnos sometimes appears as a stag-headed man. He was one of the three who granted power to Kyllian




THE HORNED GOD AND HOW HE BECAME THE CHRISTIAN DEVIL

The Horned God is the most prevalent of the God figures within Pagan Mythology, his figure or symbols having been found all across the known pre-historic world from Palaeolithic cave paintings in Eurasia, to engraved metal or stone-ware, statues and costumed rituals in Western Europe, covering the period from around 10,000 BC to 1000 AD. So from the very earliest of times, irrespective of location, tribe or custom, there has been a Horned God figure within every pagan societies pantheon, differing only in looks with various forms of Horns, including Ram, Bull, and even Stag Antlers, but always with the role of the Lord of the Wild, while maintaining a multitude of other various aspects ranging from the Consort to the Goddess, to the Soul Collector of the dieing, and so his aspects range from a figure giving life to the collector of dead.

The Horned God has generally become known and accepted in academic circles as Cernunnos, a title found engraved below his image on an altar at Notre Dame in France, but is also known by various other names such as Lord of the Beasts, Herne the Hunter, Horned Master of the Hunt, Lord of Misrule, Carnac, Gruagach along with many others, dependant upon culture, time and location.

When the Christian Church began having difficulties during the Dark Ages, with the European populace due to a rash of plagues, the high costs of the crusades, constant feudal wars and general poverty it had to look for someone or something else to blame for what the populace considered to be the failings of the new Christian religion.

The Church finally found its excuse and escape when the people began to turn back to the old Pagan Gods and Goddesses, especially with Cernunnos with his link to nature. As the common population came close to revolt against the leaders of the Christian faith, this fear of revolt and consequent loss of power compelled them to develop the Horned God’s figure into the image that was to become their devil, and blamed the people’s pagan faith for all the ills that were happening in the world, with the theology that these plagues, man made and natural disasters were all the “one true God’s” retribution for the sins of their false idolatry, in a gradual process starting around 1100 AD.

The Church theorists then set to work throughout the middle ages, developing and re-developing the personification of evil by taking and blending more different physical aspects from various Horned Gods, so as to form a focal point for the general populace as a figure of fear, and to alleviate the pressure on the church by diverting the focus of blame onto the pagan communities. The few remaining written descriptions of this “devil” figure, with its changes through time appear in the “Witch Hunter’s” manuals from the “burning times”, and show the wide variances in appearance of the figure, to its final form with distinctive red skin and spiked tail.

So was born the Christian Devil, who has been called various names including Lucifer and Satan.

Thanks Trina - thats really helpful stuff - would like to chat.

Do you have a ref for that... I didnt think cernnunos was in the Irish pantheon.

Erm, unless I'm mistaken (in which case I will be told quickly enough)Lucifer is NOT quite the "Christian devil"!

(Hebrew helel; Septuagint heosphoros, Vulgate lucifer)

The name Lucifer originally denotes the planet Venus, emphasizing its brilliance. The Vulgate employs the word also for "the light of the morning" (Job 11:17), "the signs of the zodiac" (Job 38:32), and "the aurora" (Psalm 109:3). Metaphorically, the word is applied to the King of Babylon (Isaiah 14:12) as preeminent among the princes of his time; to the high priest Simon son of Onias (Ecclesiasticus 50:6), for his surpassing virtue, to the glory of heaven (Apocalypse 2:28), by reason of its excellency; finally to Jesus Christ himself (2 Peter 1:19; Apocalypse 22:16; the "Exultet" of Holy Saturday) the true light of our spiritual life.

The Syriac version and the version of Aquila derive the Hebrew noun helel from the verb yalal, "to lament"; St. Jerome agrees with them (In Isaiah 1:14), and makes Lucifer the name of the principal fallen angel who must lament the loss of his original glory bright as the morning star. In Christian tradition this meaning of Lucifer has prevailed; the Fathers maintain that Lucifer is NOT the proper name of the devil, but denotes only the state from which he has fallen (Petavius, De Angelis, III, iii, 4).

The following information:

Midir was the gord of the Underworld/Annwyn; He is the son of Dagda and Morrigan, and (according to some sources) the father of Anpao and Cernunnos. He is the brother of Andraste, Bodb, Derg, Brigit, Ohgma, and Rhiannon. Midir was not an underworld god like Hades; he was of the ruler of haeries, elves and leprechauns that lived there; they were distant relatives. He was sort of the elf king.

Fuamnach, actually a deified mortal, she may have served as the goddess of marriages. She is the daughter of Beothach and great-great-great-granddaughter of Nemedh (leader of the Nemedians), and ancestor of the FirBholg tribes of Ireland). When she became immortal she cast spells keeping her husband Mider from committing any other romances out of wedlock. She was more like Hera than Morrigan. She is the mother of Anpao and Cernunnos by Mider.

Was received in faith from a member of the Circle/Fellowship of Isis from Kilkee, Co Clare, I have since found it to be inaccurate and of therefore no credence. I apologise for taking a fellow Pagan at their word and posting the information before validating it.

As to the question of Lucifer and Satan they are two common names alternatively used for the Devil, as shown by the following dictionary definitions.

Lucifer
n
1. the leader of the rebellion of the angels: usually identified with Satan
2. the planet Venus when it rises as the morning star
(Old English, from Latin Lucifer, light-bearer, from lux light + ferre to bear)

Satan
n the devil, adversary of God, and tempter of mankind: sometimes identified with Lucifer (Luke 4:5--8)
(Old English, from Late Latin, from Greek, from Hebrew: plotter, from satan to plot against)

who was it that steered you wrong the fellowship of isis are a kinda old group, id lay odds it was an old person

Here's an interesting snippet:

THE ORIGINAL DEVIL
Pezuzu, with his clawed hands and feet, snake-headed penis and wings, was the evil destructive aspect of the efflux from Sirius B. He was an early model of the Christian Satan. (Damned serpents popping up again!)

Aye, they are meant to have a degree(s) in Irish Mythology and History, so they sounded good, and not being myself fully conversant with the Irish side.
I thought the normal: "age + qualifications = knowledgable wisdom"!
I know better than to believe what the Scottish History/Mythology students spout, but thats due to personal knowledge, so I suppose I should have judged the rest the same!

Cernunnos is one of the names my patron will accept; there are others. And there are some he will not, such as Pan.

I've talked to at least five other pagans I trust who have encountered the same person I know. I tend to be very wary about discussion of him as there's so much rubbish posted about him.

It was nice to see Trina withdraw the stuff about Mider and whoever, as very little is known about Cernunnos from archeaological evidence, and nothing from written texts. I can given you an overview of the evidence (though not all of it, but the major stuff) but it probably runs to around 1500 words, having been published in Pagan Dawn a few issues back.

Very little is known about ANY Celtic/NW European Pagan Diety through archeaological evidence or written texts. ALL "original" written texts are second hand accounts by people who have visited or invaded the Celtic lands, for good or bad reasons, and unluckily for us they were mainly self centred, and so bad for us. Other written accounts are historical assumptions or regional facts frequently altered for specific purpose or belief.
To say or intone, that because your particular "patron" does not accept YOU using the name Pan for them means that it cannot be their name, shows a distinct lack of knowledge and understanding of early peoples including their and our Pagan culture.
ALL the Gods and Goddesses are called by different names in different regions. Even the name Cernunnos is regional, it has only ever been found in one place and that is on an altar, at Notre Dame, Paris and is accounted to the God on the altar worshiped by the tribe the Romans termed as Parisii. NO OTHER figure of the same or similar diety has ever been found, to date, with the inscription Curnunnos connected to it.
There is actually NO physical proof that the name is even connected to the altar figure, other than it is the only discernable word that was present in the area and it could easily refer to something or someone completely different that has been lost through time. This was even a thought that was mentioned and put forward when the Altar was originally discovered, but discarded for ease of recognition. This is the sole reason that the name or term (to be more precise) Cernunnos has been given to ALL Deities with a similar discription to that of the carved altar. It was purely used for ease of Categarisation by the archeaoligists , and NOT because that was and is his ONLY TRUE NAME.
To show a variation you merely have to go to sites at Vienna, Ebchester and Chesterholm to see the name VINDOS in use , or Caithness, Cheshire, Cornwall and Staffordshire where CARNAC and CARNOW have both been found at sites in relation to the Horned God Diety figure.
It is NOT the WORDS we say or NAMES we use, but the thoughts that are important as it is OUR THOUGHTS THATS SHOW OUR TRUE BELIEF, you can bluff all you want with words but you cant bluff with your thoughts and feelings.

Gosh, thanks for all that info - very interesting indeed.

Yep. No disagreement there.



Mmm... shall we go on?



Ah. What names other than Freyja or Loki do those deities have, for example?



Er, not quite.
The Pillar of the Boatmen apparently provides the earliest written record of the name “Cernunnos”, though the first letter of the name is defaced. However it's thought to be meant to be Cernunnos on the basis of linguistic and other archaeological evidence. Additional evidence for the name is given by two identical inscriptions on metal plaques from Seinsel-Rëlent (Luxembourg), in the territory of the Treveri. These inscriptions read "Deo Ceruninco", "to the God Cerunincos". Lastly, a Gaulish inscription written in Greek letters from Montagnac (Hérault, Languedoc-Roussilion, France) reads "αλλετ[ει]υος καρνονου αλ[ι]σο[ντ]εας" thus giving a name Carnonos. As far as I'm aware, the linguistic roots of the name come from the Gaulish word carnon or cernon which means "antler" or "horn". This can produce the names Carnonos, Deer-Hoofed One or Cornonos Horned One. The central syllable “on” denotes a deity, as in Epona or Maponos



If we wish to be penantic, from memory there is no altar, just the pillar. The altar has tended to be 'assumed' by a few popular pagan writers. However, if you have information about such an altar I'd be very interested in the references for it.




Indeed. Although there are motifs that appear to be common to a number of the reliefs and statues, though nothing can be said for certain.



No argument. Indeed, I don't think it is, otherwise I assume he'd be concerned to make the point himself.



Now this really interets me, because most of the sites you mention do not show on the horizon in material regarding archeaological evidence for 'Karnonos'. I'd really appreciate it if you could point me towards your evidence. As would someone I know in France, who has been researching 'Karnonos' for years and is , AFAIK, unaware of these finds.

What is the connection with 'Vindos'?



Not sure what point you're making here.

The Pillar des Nautes was found at Notre Dame, but is now in the Musee do Moyen Age, also known as the Musee de Cluny. The pillar features several roman deities as well as the famous relief carving of ©ernunnos. He is featured with horns which look like a cross betwen bull horns and antlers (that may be the carver ran out of space?) which have rings on them.

I will have to go and look up the other deities featured, but from memory I think they were all Roman.

edit - from Wikipedia: The main dedication is to Jupiter, alongside Mercury, Mars, Fortuna, Castor and Pollux and Vulcan. Gaulish deities mentioned are Esus, Tarvos Trigaranos (the Bull with the three Cranes), Smertios and Cernunnos.

bb
Rhiannon

In answer to your sarcastic statement about Freya or Loki, they are both Gods from ONE tribe or people, persay the Viking Descendants, NOT A WIDE PEOPLED CULTURE. People of the same Tribe WILL BY LOGIC use the same names for their Dieties as they are the same peoples. There is NO single Celtic or Pagan tribe so there is no single Pantheon. You will find Gods and Goddesses with the same if not very similar aspects with different names in different peoples, tribes and cultures. FACT.

Not one of the names you have shown - Deo Ceruninco, Cerunincos, Carnonos - are are spelt in the same way as CERNUNNOS. Different spellings are frequently taken to be different names by people, which is just the POINT that I WAS MAKING!!!.

ALL of the sites mentioned have revealed items with correspondence to the "Horned God" - the purpose being once again, to show that HE WAS KNOWN BY MORE THAN JUST CERNUNNOS.
The term "Cernunnos" is taken by modern day scholars to be a divine epithet applied to the deity whose actual name was VINDOS - "The White One" from the Indo European roots "WEI - 'clear' and HWIT - 'To Be White' Vindos was the son NOUDONS ("Mist Hunter") and is shown frequently as a "Horned God"- SO IS ANOTHER 'CERNUNNOS' FIGURE ANYWAY!

The name of the Diety is IRRELEVANT it is the PURENESS OF THOUGHT THAT COUNTS. You have to KNOW what Attributes the Deity is concerned with, far more than what other people call them. A name is but a "tag" to enable identification of things between fellow human beings, names are man made concepts.

Was it sarcastic? I wanted to know whether your statement about all gods and goddesses being known by various names was universal. I have to admit I don't understand your reply here. However, if I do have any understanding of it it looks as though you are saying that you believe that all gods and goddesses have different names in different cultures. That's fine: of course you are entitled to you belief. But please don't confuse your belif with fact. Others believe differently.



Er, where does Vindos come into it? That seems a very different spelling.

And I didn't use "Deo Ceruninco, Cerunincos, Carnonos". I used "Cernunnos" which is the assumed reconstruction in the Pillar of the Boatmen, and Karnonos, which is my own preferred spelling.



I'd really appeaciate your giving the references to what you claimed about findins in Vienna, cornwall etc of a similar name with horned god prepresentations. Any chance of that?



Love to. Can you quote references or is this your opinion, or received information without evidence?



Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by 'the pureness of thought'. Would you care to elucidate? Is it a religious concept you espouse? I regret I haven't come across it previously.

Also, regretfully, the deities I have encountered don't bother too much with aspects or attributes. In my experience that is the language of 'soft' polytheist. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with you having your beliefs, but I would say please don't assume that, bevcause you believe them, they are fact. others believe differently.

Have I hit some sort of a nerve or are you prone to 'shouting' at people?

QUOTE
To show a variation you merely have to go to sites at Vienna, Ebchester and Chesterholm to see the name VINDOS in use , or Caithness, Cheshire, Cornwall and Staffordshire where CARNAC and CARNOW have both been found at sites in relation to the Horned God Diety figure.

Have you got any links please for the reference to Caithness? Ta!

Interesting stuff

And I think it is boiling down to your, ie, one's, perception of whether all the gods are one and aspects, or are different gods.

For me, I admit my viewpoint is along the same lines as Moonhunter.

To simplify - I get called Blondie from time to time, for obvious reasons. But I'm not the only person to get called that on account of my appearance, nor does it make me the same as the other "Blondie's" who share similar attributes, nor are we simply aspects of the same one. The description may be similar from different areas, but the person and the personality are entirely distinct and separate. That's a very simplified reason, but the fact is that many European languages share similar words, whether it's pronounciation, spelling etc, but it doesn' t mean that the thing these words are describing are necessarily the same. "mathair" in Gaelic is similar to the German "Mutter" - they may both mean "mother" but the mother they refer to is not necessarily the same person.

Heh.

I think we're on the same wavelength here.

I am not prone to shouting at people but neither do I tolerate IDIOTS!.

*starting the pomona fan club as he types*

Well, that's good, you should fit in just fine here then, there's a fairly low idiot-tolerance level on the site

Trina, I think you're being unnecessarily prickly, I didn't read anything in Moonhunter's responses to you which were in any way sarcastic or "smart" - just a different viewpoint to your own. Want to calm down a wee bit and lay off the capitals/shouting?

Too little to late Pomona, Trina has withdrawn from the site. I feel no need to justify her actions as I feel they were right for how the other site members have made her feel.
As to her using capitals. they are merely emphasis for the words. If people actually read things then they wouldn't frequently be needed, but unluckily they do't and thats what annoys people so that emphasis is required to repeat what has already been said that normally answers the question or statement raised. Enough of that though.

The whole point of Trina's entry was that it does not matter what you call your Deity , but that you are clear in the understanding of what that Deity can achieve - their aspects or "correspondences"(to use the "in-word").

Do any of the site members actually Worship a Pantheon of Dieties?
If so, how do they distinguish between them? and what do they worship them for, if their attributes are unimportant?
I have been a Pagan all my life, I was raised in the beliefs of my homeland, and the community that I was born into has practiced those beliefs since man settled in the area, which was in the Neolithic Period, according to archaeological evidence. My ancestors and family never moved from the area (to live permanently) until after the last World War, before anyone has the cheek to say that I am lying - especially without knowing me.
The Pantheon of Dieties is the mainstay of true Pagan belief, just look at any "pre-history" culture and you will find that they all have a "family of Deities" - not always as in the brother, sister, son, daughter way - as this thought tends to appear in later writing's, I suppose as a form of justification for their being, so that they can "conform" to that times present day theologies.
Our Ancestors had Deities for all manner of things, and the reason was plain, how can anything be expected to be done if your too busy doing something else?
Even Deities need time to achieve things, or do you all really believe that they are like a "fast food" chain?
If so then you can forget all your fancy ceremonies, as before you would have completed them, the job/quest/call it what you will, would already have been done!
Get out of the "I want it now", and start to think about how our ancestors who actually had patience did things.
If you want to truly follow the "old ways" then start to have the old ways patience, not the "here and now or never" thoughts that modern life exists on.

Hallo Alasdair

I'm sorry Trina has withdrawn from the site, her posts were interesting and informative. I wish her well.

You asked:



Yes. Including myself.



I distinguish between them by dint of them being different beings. In the same way that I distinguish between the people around me, by their names, their personalities, their appearance, likes/dislikes etc.

Their attributes are not unimportant, I never said they were, but I consider each person different with their own attributes. Facets of their character if you will. So Minerva has many facets, many "governances", but she is still distinct from Juno.



Why would you assume that anyone would call you liar? We don't know you very well at all (just as you may not know many of us) and the assumption is that people here tell the truth.



Hmmm. I'm going to both agree and split hairs with you on this one (which is good, even for me!). I happen to agree that the ancients worshipped a particular pantheon until they (the ancients) started to really move around and assimilate with other cultures. I'm thinking of the Romans here. And that they probably created new sub-Pantheons as occasion required, melding deities from the different areas to address their different needs. (So you see, I do actually agree with where you're broadly coming from in terms of deity addressing the need of the individual). But "true Pagan belief" is a bit like saying that there's only one true god. Everyone's spirituality is different and everyone's definition of what is true to them is not necessarily true to someone else.



Not sure if I can understand where you're coming from by this "all really believe" and that we should "get out of the "I want it now" and the instruction to "start to have the old ways patience".

You're making some sweeping assumptions about the beliefs and practises about many people on this site, including those who, like yourself, were brought up in the old ways and have never bought into any "get-fixed-quick-a-la-Starhawk" ethos.

I feel rather that you've lectured us (okay, I'm not going to speak for the others here and I'll just say "me") and to be honest I'm at a loss as to know why, other than the fact that different viewpoints to yours have been expressed.

well i dont know?
But I do know that the Horned figure who lurks about Cannock Chase answers to the name Fred!

Hi Alasdair,



That's a shame. She had some interesting things to say. It might be worth observing that there is no single view on the nature of deities (or on much else) on this site, and there must surely be other folk here whose views might not be so different from her own. I confess I was a little puzzled at why other people's offering their differing views on the nature of Cernunnos, and on the extant evidence, in response to Trina's own question should arouse anger.



Some folk consider it wise to keep human statements about the Gods and Goddesses somewhat tentative. They are greater than we are, and of a different nature to us, despite the connections that sometimes form. Believing we have a clear understanding of a Deity perhaps should warn us that our understanding is incomplete.

I would agree that the name of a Deity is far from being the only thing that matters, but that is not the same as it not mattering at all. A name lifted from a list in the index of one of the more rubbishy Pagan books may mean very little indeed - though even then, a pattern of sounds may sometimes carry a meaning even if the speaker is unaware of it. A name spoken by one who has studied what can be known of how earlier cultures understood a Deity shapes the speaker's mind as it is spoken with many potent associations, as is the case to an even greater extent where the speaker already has experience of honouring and connecting with that Deity.



Yes, and quite a few seem to worship Deities from more than one pantheon. It's important to remember that a 'pantheon' is a kind of snapshot of the main Deities of a specific culture at a particular point in history, and what appears in literature is usually a rather 'tidied-up' version. As time goes by and cultures change, the way in which 'it' - and I do recognise that no culture has probably ever had, or ever will have, a homogenous understanding of divinity - understands and describes the Gods and Goddesses will likely change to some degree.

I don't think anyone has said that attributes are unimportant, though a few 'hard polytheists' have given their view that deities from different cultures with similar attributes should not be viewed as interchangeable. For myself, I'm neither a 'hard polytheist' nor a 'soft polytheist', merely a polytheist. I 'know' Deities through a mixture of study, experience and intuition, and often enough cannot distinguish what Deity or Deities is involved. Our human desire for certainties can sometimes make us leap beyond what our experience is actually showing us.



I certainly would not presume that you are lying. As someone with an amateur interest in history and historiography, I would be fascinated to learn something of the mechanisms by which such beliefs were passed down through such an immense and predominantly non-literate span of time, and how those at this end of the span could know that they had been?



With respect, I would suggest that you re-read your earlier, and sound, advice on the importance of reading what people actually say on a subject. It is rather silly to make sweeping assumptions about hundreds of people you don't know, and who do not in any case all think alike.

BB,

John Macintyre

Firstly I should state I'm a panentheist, not a polytheist.

I don't believe the Gods have names, I believe they have titles. The various spellings and derivations all seem to point to a very similar title "The Horned One". However, that doesn't mean that they are all the same deity. If individual understanding of the Gods comes from a subjective viewpoint (which ultimately, I believe, it must) then the deity that one person calls "The Horned One" cannot be the same as the deity that someone else calls "The Horned One" all though they may share similarities.

(Can the Christian God of Waco be the same Christian God who inspires his followers to perform great acts of selflessness and love? Is the Odin of those who seek for truth and honour, the same Odin as those who seek to destroy those who are different to themselves?)

These are my thoughts, and I am aware that polytheists have a different understanding of the situation. However, we can only speak our own truth from our own viewpoint.

bb
Rhiannon
(who was honoured to honour Cernunnos at the Piliar des Nautes!)

Get your head out of the sand, what is a name? it is nothing but a title, a tag, a word, don't try and play word games with semantics, its not befitting of the subject. Ever thought of silent Worship/Prayer ? words , names, tags don't come into it, it is pure thought, you can think of things without knowing what they are called, named, titled or tagged.

In answer to the Christian sects and Odin. Yes, they can quite easily be the same. Find one segment of any faith that has never caused physical harm to another faith or even segment of its own faith? There are none, all beliefs have had at some time and always will have physical violent disputes, unluckily that is the nature of some of mankind.

As to be "honoured to honour cernunnos at the Piliar des Nautes"" is he only there? A place doesn't make a Deity. The Deities are everywhere or does that not fit into your tidy world, with each in its place and at its time, because thats how it sounds.
Belief should not be a weekend past time, something you put on with fancy dress or just practice in a set place. It should be a complete lifestyle, to honour the Deities, you should honour them everywhere all the time, after all it is their gift that you are living, not just at set times or places but at all times, everywhere. The whole of existence is their temple, monument, pillar, what ever fancy word you want to call it, only the narrowness of mankinds mind, and wish to control others, has presented a set time and/or place to worship.

John,
Your final quote from me was in reference to question above it. Taken as you put it without the question, it does not read correct, but was not presented as a stand alone statement.

Other than that I do generally concur with you about Pantheons and their existence and present conception or interpretation.
The heritage of which I speak was passed down "word of mouth" frequently, but our ancesters (the common people) were not quite as illiterate as some would have us believe. Although I do not think that you believe them to be quite so illiterate, they may not have used this alphabet or "be civilised" as we like to think of it, but they did have means of communication apart from oral. Ogham for one.

As to my comment about "being called a liar", that was a pre-empt, because that is exactly what has been intoned against Trina and her statements by others.

Alasdair,



Watch your manners you impertinent boy! Rhiannon happens to be a woman, and a priestess, of considerable knowledge and experience. Even if she were not, you have no cause whatsoever to speak in such a way to anyone whose speech to you has been nothing but courteous.

John Macintyre

Alasdair, you're being more than a little rude. Perhaps because you are being so you assume that others are also. This is not the case.

You are clearly happy with the way you perceive Deity and the way you honour and worship, please don't presume to tell others how to do so. Not on this site anyway.

I always feel a little nervous about posting in debates like this being as I am an athiest.. but to a certain extent thats kinda the point really...

Its frightening to see people telling others "how" to worship. How to respect their own God or Gods. I would have thought from the way people here have spoken about how they honour their gods that the relationship they have is a very personal one. It seems the hight of impertinance to tell someone else how they should or should not believe.

And this is why I have felt moved to post here, I read with fascination about the gods and how people interact with them and when I see believers verbally abuse other believers it makes me wonder what they would do to me!?

Perhaps we have found our fanatics?

Hi Alasdair

Firstly, I'm not sure how seeing the words we use to refer to our Gods as titles rather than as names means that I have my head in the sand? Perhaps you could explain why you have used this metaphor?

Silent worship/prayer? Yes I do that, as do many others. However, please don't make the mistake (which I myself am often guilty of) of thinking that everyone else sees and understands the world in the way you do. When I think of things internally yes I do name them, and words form easily in my mind. Even at those moments of heart-stopping ecstasy and communion with the Gods, my mind still puts those experiences into the best words it can. Although I admit to sometimes not being able to find the words, it doesn't mean that my mind isn't trying to find a way to share that experience through language, or the names, titles and tags that you refer to. Just because you have thoughts coming to mind with no words attached, doesn't mean that everyone else does.



I will have to disagree with you. I am sure that many Christians would not recognise the God that some use as a sop to their destructive and barbaric natures. I was not asking if the religions called themselves the same name or their God forms the same name, I asked whether the God-form that they worshipped could possible be the same when the follwers see them so differently.



I have honoured Cernunnos in lots of places. However, I do feel privileged to have been able to honour him before an object that my ancestors honoured him before. I find such tangible links to the past to be very emotive.



A fine sentiment. I do think that followers of Bacchus might have a few problems though



Thank you John - the honourable warrior role suits you! Perhaps some are seeing attack where none is intended? I was hoping to share some UPG about Pictish deities with Alisdair but I don't think it would be appreciated

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Rhiannon

I have to say that I am not sorry that Trina has left the forum. To use such an insulting tone to someone who was trying to have a discussion is ignorant in the extreme. If one is unable to talk academically about a subject then why not just say so and look for other forms of expression? Sulking off because one has met an intellectual superior is childish. If I sulked off everytime I met an intellecutal superior I'd spend my whole life flouncing! (Quiet at the back )

Moonhunter (who is a personal friend) is anything but an idiot, although I suspect she will find the insult slightly amusing.

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Rhiannon

I just got here but I liked Trina, she was helped me out a bit.

What was the point of that post ey... kickin someone when theyre down

Quote: "As to my comment about "being called a liar", that was a pre-empt, because that is exactly what has been intoned against Trina and her statements by others."

Might I suggest: "that was a pre-empt, because that is exactly what has been inferred against Trina (and her statements) by others."

To "intone" means "to say, or recite, with little rise of fall in the pitch of the voice." I would suspect the opposite would have justifiably merited your accusation! As I have been reading these posts, there seems to have been a normal and pertinent variation/alteration in tone dependant upon what point/s were being made by the various members.

(The use of parentheses is obvious to anyone with a grasp of how the English language works.)

Hope this helps.

How dare you call me a boy! Just what have you done with your fantastic life that you think yourself superior to anyone. As to Rhiannon being a Woman so what? Since when does the sex of some one prevent them from being stupid or ignorant? A PRIESTESS, don't make me sick, a Preistess of what? some Mickey Mouse Organisation that plays at being religious or did she just buy the title? Get real preistesses and preists are MAN MADE APPOINTMENTS they are just another way of controlling thought and beliefs. So rhiannon is a command freak, she sure as hades has no fantastic knowledge. IF you believe that there is control in the Pagan belief then you can stuff yourself.

Heh. Down to personal abuse, now? A very enlightening line of argument.

MOD HAT ON

Alasdair

I would strongly recommend you modify your tone and attitude.

If you have sought to defend Trina's viewpoint then you have done her no favours by behaving in a rude and hectoring manner yourself. I have seen nothing in your posts which indicates a willingness to engage in discussion, only in your desire to tell us that we are wrong and you are right. And to get personal and angry when your viewpoint is challenged.

In short, you ARE behaving like a wee boy.

So I'll talk to you like that.

BEHAVE.

This is a grown up forum. If you wish to continue posting then behave like a grown up.



MOD HAT OFF

Ach son, ye maun haud yer wheesht a wee bittie, staund back, an' tak ane - or even twa - lang, DEEP breaths.

The wey Ah read aw this, ye are gettin AWFY hot under the collar, and makin a wee bittie o' a gowk o' yersel'! That's just mah AIN opinion, ye ken, and has nae bearin' at aw on the views o' ithers hereaboots. Crivvens! Ah widnae DAUR!

Noo, ye tell us ye are cognisant wi' the letters. The Ogham an' aw that. Weel, ye micht tak tent o' the fact that ithers abuin the Valley are also AWFU wiselike an' aw!

It strikes me too, that ye are a bittie TOO handy wi' the airte o' wurblin'...

Pomona

Apologies if my previous posting seemed a trifle rude. After having read the postings following I hope that this discussion is able to get back on track as a reasonable discourse. I found the responses given by yourself, John and Rhiannon more than covered any points I might have wished to express so to reiterate anything would be rather redundant.

ED looks glum
I only asked a wee question (in my Brigit thread) re Cernunnos - I hadn't intended fully armed warfare to break out!!
ED hides behind sofa and hopes peace and normal service will be resumed soon!

There, there - dinnae fash yersel' son. (Tas gently and comfortingly strokes ED's beak, whilst hoping he doesn't claw her to bits for the use of the diminutive "son"!)
How were any of us to know we'd end up on the horns of such a right royal dilemma? (Ouchy!)

However, back on track: Cernunnos is, as previously intimated with varying degrees of forcefulness, the blanket term given by many (rightly or wrongly) to the archetypal God of procreation. He is depicted in various forms, all of which have horns as His main feature, along with a large phallus. Many surmise He is a remnant of a hunter culture, and Neolithic in origin, as the usual hirsuteness (and archeological evidence) would certainly suggest.

The name "Cernunnos" is, as said, not that of a British deity; rather it refers to a European one. No doubt this will be debated. The British Herne [the Hunter] comes closer. Nonetheless, we each discover our own Paths, and in so doing the Old Ones can offer us surprises. Who is to say you have not connected with Cernunnos as a European God? Whoever you believe you are drawn to, I suggest you learn as much as possible about those deities. Others often have rather strong views about what is "correct" for people who are British etc. Fine. As I am fond of pointing out, "each to their own". Personally I would not call my "Horny" Cernunnos, but that is simply MY way of approaching and recognising Him.
Also, I would continue to meditate as you must have done in order to feel drawn to yout two (previously mentioned) deities. This will enable you to decide, for yourself, whether you are on the right Path for YOU.
Incidentally, whether we like the fact or not, we all have memes to which we respond...

Alasdair, if you act like a rude ill-mannered child then please don't be surprised if you are responded to as such.



I won't go into a long list of what John has done in his "fantastic life" but he is a very well-respected member of the pagan community, who has done an awful lot for grass roots pagans.



Chivalry is not dead. There are other reasons, but I choose not to cast pearls where they are unappreciated.



Why does the phrase "priestess" make you feel sick? For your information, I was called by my Gods to be a priestess. How I wish it were possible to just buy the title, it would save an awful lot of hard work. Personally I always view the role of priest or priestess as similar to being beautiful. It is a title that can never be self-imposed.

Being a priest or a priestess is nothing about controlling thoughts and beliefs. That idea comes from Christianity and controlling religions, I can only guess that you have had some unpleasant experiences of these, perhaps in your childhood? I know a lot of people who've rebelled very strongly after experience the old-fashioned "hell fire and brimstone" type preacher when young.



Where do you get the idea that I'm in any way a "command freak" or that I have any "fantastic knowledge" (but flattered that you even think it)? Interesting use of the word "hades" too.



No one has claimed control, just asked you to conduct yourself with manners and decorum. Rudeness achieves nothing, and does nothing but make you appear an ill-mannered youth. If you are neither of these things, then it is up to you to behave and communicate in a way that convinces the reader otherwise.

Of course, none of the above could apply, and you might just be someone who enjoys indulging in trollish behaviour?

Rhiannon

I won't go into a long list of what John has done in his "fantastic life" but he is a very well-respected member of the pagan community, who has done an awful lot for grass roots pagans.

Well I served My country , during the 80 - 90's I though in the gulf , severd in northen Iraland , did Jhon do that I do not think so.

Alasdair what does the fact you were a soldier have to do with the pagan community? and how do you know weather John has been a soldier or not, many people who have don't go spreading it about as they don't feel the need nor do they feel it means they are owed something by the rest of us, or indeed that it should be used as a supposed qualification of respect etc...

<--Mod hat on-->

can we please try to get back to the original topic otherwise I will lock the thread which will be a shame as there are some interesting posts here and I would like to see it continue without the petty bickering that is prevalent.
<--Mod hat off-->

I'd like to add a few helpful comments to our Mods' sound advice...

Hang in there Eagle - I just hope you can dance whilst wearing a pair of Bile-Proof wellies!

Meanwhile, you should be safe enough if you remain behind your sofa. It might be dark, but - unless you are of the Greek persuasion, I doubt whether you will have anything to fear from Cerberus et al. Just a mild attack of fluff, if you haven't been doing your hoovering!

As for the rest of us mere mortals, we may still have the pleasures of Asphodel Meadows, where the 'normal' dead people go, to look forward to!

Had a look for any more info to add to what's already here and am passing on details of a site all might enjoy using: ABOUT: Alternative Religions. It has tons of info, plus images.
The Cernunnos page is as follows:

http://altreligion.about.com/b/a/201432.htm

Thanks Tas appreciate your input

Alasdair I would appreciate it please if you didn't hijack this thread (which may have been started by your wife but was done so in response to my question!) with your petty and annoying bickering. please could you pm people with your personal comments as a public domain is not, IMHO, the place to do so. And I will be mightily pissed off if this thread gest locked (not at you Herne!)

[quote=Tas Mania,Feb 20 2007, 09:56 PM]
There, there - dinnae fash yersel' son. (Tas gently and comfortingly strokes ED's beak, whilst hoping he doesn't claw her to bits for the use of the diminutive "son"!)
How were any of us to know we'd end up on the horns of such a right royal dilemma? (Ouchy!)
[/quote]



[quote]
However, back on track: Cernunnos is, as previously intimated with varying degrees of forcefulness, the blanket term given by many (rightly or wrongly) to the archetypal God of procreation. He is depicted in various forms, all of which have horns as His main feature, along with a large phallus.
[/quote]

Er...really sorry for this, but none of the archealogical evidence for the images including gods with horns from the, say, post Iron Age culture, so far includes a phallus, of whatever size. and I'd be quite interested in what evidence there is to connect the Gallio-Roman god Cernunnos with any pre- Iron Age stuff.

Did you have anything in particular in mind here?

BTW, this is not to say I'm precluding phallic stuff, but I only have that through UPG, not through any archealogicial evidence.

[quote]
Many surmise He is a remnant of a hunter culture, and Neolithic in origin, as the usual hirsuteness (and archeological evidence) would certainly suggest.
[/quote]

that's interetesing. I haven't come across any references previously to 'hirsuteness'. what are they?

[quote]
The name "Cernunnos" is, as said, not that of a British deity; rather it refers to a European one.
[/quote]

Mostly Gallic and, even then, most evidence is from certain regions. Having said that, there are at least two British finds I'm aware of and a cup in Stroud (Glos) local museum that might be a reference to him - though it's very ambiguous.
[/quote]

For me, personally, Cernunnos is a handy name to use when talking about the divine masculine force I perceive in the land and particularly in forests. I might also use the names herne, jack in the green, the green man and pan but, for me, Cernunnos is the name I feel the most comfortable with.
I don't really, REALLY give a monkey's what inscription is on what pot.
just my twopenn'orth.

H