I read a horrific story today about some... there are no words to describe these people unfortunately... person, who hacked a dog's tail off and the poor beast had to be put down.

I read stuff like this and my blood boils and my instinct is to hex the living daylights out of the perpetrators or at least send them as much pain as they inflict.

I just wondered what your view was on acting in a magickal way to help with a situation which has nothing to do with you personally, but which touches you in some way.

Would you, or have you, done a working whch would bring fortune to someone you felt sorry for, to avenge a serious wrong, or do you not attempt it on the basis that it doesn't affect you personally and therefore it's not for you to meddle.

I was thinking about John Donne's "No Man is an Island" poem (to give the low-English abbreviated version: "No man is an island, entire of itself, every man's death diminishes me because I am involved in mankind. Therefore do not think to ask for whom the bell tolls: it tolls for thee") last night and then the story about the dog got me thinking again (I'll have a lie down soon) - that I feel connected to the world as part of the whole "web" idea and therefore the vibration further down the web eventually reverberates back up to me and to everyone else on the web. And so I feel compelled sometimes to act as part of that connection.

Don't get me wrong, it doesn' t mean I feel like I should don a cape and put my pants on over my jeans, I can't right the world, but I feel that I should do what I can in small ways.

I'm just reading this and realising that I could be coming over as some self-righteous vigilante - that really is not the intention - I'm really just interested in knowing if anyone else feels that when something not directly related to them happens, they feel compelled to act magickally. Is it any different to acting like a vigilante? Is it any different to taking it upon yourself to raise money for a good cause? Do you see it as a simple use of you doing what you're good at, or is it something to be avoided because you don't know the whole story?

This is such a difficult point and an excellent potential debate.

Like you my blood boils when I think of the people that have done such a vile thing to a living creature and that anger thought escapes my psyche and travels off to build an energy which will be directed at the culprits, without any need for actual spell work. The problem here is that it is unfocussed energy which will undoubtedly have an effect but will not necessarily "teach" the offenders that what they have done is wrong. It will just dish out something not very nice which they will probably use as an excuse to continue being w*nkers.

I personally feel that the only way to be truly responsible is to send them positive reinforcement in an attempt to bring light into theirs lives.

This is not an easy thing to do because our natural human emotion will intervene and therefore we must feel confident that we are strong enough to send this positive energy with the right intentions.

Difficult though eh?

How come?

I mean, taking the example of the dog, if that was your dog, you're not honestly telling me that you would send out love to the person who did that?

Well, do you believe in Karma or not? Lot of people bang on about karma and 'reaping what you sow' but it seems to be more wishful thinking than an actual conviction about it - if you think people get what they give then surely what they do will catch up with them?

If you believe in Karma that is.



How does that help with the situation P? Helps with you and your feelings. Doesn't mean it's the wrong thing to do. But how does it 'help'?



To feel compelled to do something is to have a compulsion, like the compulsion to eat, the compulsion to laugh the compulsion to cry. To feel compelled to do something isn't always reason enough to do it, although sometimes it is. Just be careful the object of that compulsion isn't taking the brunt of something deeper. One person's barbaric and senseless act can easily become the channel for a whole outflow of hurts, sorrows, griefs and upsets. Bit like the execution of Sadam really. Unleashing that side of you on a 'deserving target' doesn't make those feelings or actions any more right and, as I’ve prattled about before, magic of anger and revenge is far easier to make effective than 'good' magic, because there is a close personal bond to suffering. Black arts have always been easier and more effective en mass.

I think, if you feel like doing it, do it. I wouldn't give it that much more thought than thinking 'hey, I fancy a bar of chocolate, I’ll have one' - the more significance you pile onto it, the more significant it becomes, and I don't think it really deserves that much head space. But if you are going to do it, be very honest about why you're doing it, don't gloss it up with altruistic notions of the greater good



It's part of the human condition. We all are.



I'd say 'just accept it'.

To be honest, I’m usually too self absorbed to be compelled to act magically about anything that doesn't really affect me directly, this forms an apathy which means that if I do try something it's unlikely to work as the 'personal touch' is the key to most magic. I suppose it all boils down to earlier discussions which have been bashed out on morals and ethics and what you perceive our place in all of that to be and what any of it means after we die *shrug* Take it from there.

Best wishes,

Marion.

That's not an alien concept. The Buddhists would generate metta, the xians would preach forgiveness. I think most would agree the 'eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth' concept never got anyone very far. Mind your own mental well-being, which strategy, in the long term, sees you fit? Usually not the easiest of two routes.

Best wishes,

Mairon.

I know exactly what you mean Pomona and its something I battle with pretty regularly too.

I see things like that with the dog, utter injustices and I feel so compelled at times to reach out magickly and wring their necks! Then theres the times when as a human being someting wrenches at you and you think something must be done. I remember watching a programme about the Romanian Orphans and weeping with sheer frustration at the conditions the children were being kept in and wanting to pull the heavens down with the rage I felt.

But what do you do? Or rather, where do you you stop might be a better question.

I loved your "im not a superhero" bit, but to a certain extent, thats just it.

So while it may not be.. the right answer and its certainly not a complete one, this is what I do. Where I can, I make donations to charities to deal with the problems that are bigger than I think I could handle on my own. Where I see suffering that I think I could help with, healing energies, that sort of thing, I do what I can when I can, and with regards to the problems like the little shits that murdered that dog... well if I read something like that and my blood boils and there doesnt seem to be a natural justice, they dont get arrested, or some such.. then if I feel moved enough about it, I will do something.

What makes the causes I choose right. Nothing.

Is what I am doing right? I dont know, but it feels right to me.

Is it vigilante? Possibly, perhaps, maybe.. I dont know but in the same way that some feel compelled to do what THEY are good at for the good of others, I feel moved to do the same, and ok... so Im not a member of some government approved body, but the government is only our representatives, so I dont feel they have any more right to decide whats right and wrong than I do.

As Granny says... we are the ones that stand in the middle and decide which way the wheel turns. I personally feel everyone falls into that category, you should do what you can, its wrong to stand by and do nothing.

Doesnt help does it? Sorry

I think it's important to make it clear that I'm not looking for validation or analysis of the psychology behind my actions - for the record I am no believer in Karma and I have hexed and probably will do again.

I don't feel disposed to help to make ME feel better, when I've done something it's because I genuinely feel that my working will make a difference. Perhaps if I put a "positive" action spin on it - where it's not dishing out punishment (for want of a better word) but to improve someone's life.

I'm really just interested in knowing whether others have acted in a magickal way to intervene in an affair that didn't necessarily affect them personally.

Do we as witches have an obligation to do so in the same way that doctors are oathbound to help the sick?

As a total newbie I'm not in a position to do any kind of magickal intervention one way or another, but I'd be wary of trying to do much for someone I had no knowledge of. To torture an animal is a dreadful thing, but why did that person do it? Maybe they're deeply psychologically disturbed, maybe they have no concept of pain and cruelty.
Obviously if someone I knew did something like that I'd feel the need to do something, but from an informed standpoint.
But can it ever be wrong/inappropriate to heal?
Badger's Moon
xx

Yes, there were instances where I used "magick" but rather to thwart the "magickal" misappropriations of others using it to serve their power games much to the misfortune of those unfamiliar. People who are cruel to animals however, stand the high risk of Nature's own revenge, as it is other animals can sense this of a person. Thus, sooner or later this person will meet their maker in some form. If I can aid Nature in this process, however, I will.

I REALLY struggle with this as I believe a lot of illness is karmic or directed.

If directed then I have no problem with offering protection.

If it is Karmic I sometimes feel I would be unsuccessful anyway.

Do I try? Yes because I believe a positive action with good and pure intent can only do good or do nothing at all and therefore causes no harm.

And to answer Pomona, if it was my dog - crikey yes of course I would be angry, yes I would direct negative energy (possibly even consider a magickal response), yes I would probably regret it and hopefully take an opportunity later to put it right.

Some people can be so cruel, especially to innocents.

I will light a candle later for the dog

When I hear of things happening like this, and there have been times I have been tempted to use magick against those concerned, then I remember an incident that happened a few years back involving someone very close to me, where I was sorely tempted to lash out magickly. However after talking about it to a close friend I ended up asking that the person who committed the offence receive justice, and in the end he did. So now when I hear of these terrible acts being committed, then I simply ask that those who have committed these acts receive justice, and usually they do.

Stupid question from a newbie...can you really justify hexing someone without being specifically asked by someone? Is it not a question of changing free will and is that not fundamentally wrong? What happens to the principle of "harm no-one"?

I am absolutely not condoning what they did and would probably take a large stick or some other object and use physical force upon said perpertrators and their families and thoroughly enjoy getting rid of my pent up frustrations, but maybe I've missed the point.

Would love to know others answers/opinions

PS - personally Pom, the big stick and curse 'em to hell and back sounds splendid even if it is "wrong"

In addition to my previous reply, I remember a time I was staying at a friend's cabin in a rather wild and secluded region of Nova Scotia. One night all the dogs in the area suddenly began howling as if something sinister was about to befall them. I asked my friend and she told me that a local derelict was not only in the habit of scavenging the cabins, but eating any dog allowed to stray in the owner's absence. Sure enough, we soon saw him coming down the road from the woods. Of course, seeing us, he didn't dare stop and kept going, eventually past our clearing back into the wilds. The howling persisted for quite some time until the man was well out of the area again.

I know this can hardly be compared to urban European conditions or its thus domesticated animals, but even then, apt to "sound the alarm" when trouble's afoot. Perhaps it is that we humans should pay better attention when they do, and react accordingly!

I've been pondering this all day. I think sending out magical intervention to someone you've no connection with might be wishful thinking to some extent.

I've bound people, who've not hurt directly me, but have hurt others close to me, not on a regular basis, but paedophiles and other sexual predators, I've turned to magic for justice. Actually, thinking of it now, thats usually the basis of my workings...justice. Often we only hear one side of story, and I wou;dn't want to throw a lot of 'shite' at someone who didn't deserve it. Hopefully we all practise a little restraint, and think things through before setting out with big guns blazing.

However, the mudane can also help, to a degree, with the feelings of impotency that often come with reading about some tragic event. Reading about an animal being abused is more likely to see me make a donation to the RSPCA than to do a working. Because, I don't have that connection, (even thinking that would prolly insure that spell wouldn't work, that the focus would be off).

I come at a lot of issues from a different perspective, its not a well mind that abuses an animal, I could see how ill wishing the perp might make me feel better, but I don't know if it would solve the problem in the long term, or just send more negativity out in a world that is too full of pain. Too me a hex is a quick fix, not necessarily a long term solution.

I'm interested in the why someone does something and what can be done about it.

Q

BTW Pomana, not a dig at you in anyway, cos this lil Queenie has mountains of respect for you pet, just my thoughts, and tis a well known fact that Queenie's have slightly fluffy/ bleeding heart liberal centre.

LOL! Didn't take it as a dig Queenie hon, have just as much respect for you and know exactly where you're coming from.

Your point about a working for "justice" is, I think, exactly what I'm talking about. (But said so much better than I did )

Maybe we need to start another thread looking at the "what" of hexing - for some people it's perceived as a "drop a nuclear weapon on someone who pinched your purse" and for some, me included, it's seen as the magickal equivalent of smacking a badly behaved child on the wrist when all other attempts at reasoning, telling off etc have failed (and the smacking analogy is just as contentious when you think about it ). It might also be worth looking at (apart from this thread) what a hex is and whether there are varying degrees of hexing - eg, you send someone a skelped bum - is that a hex? Making someone realise and feel remorse for the consequences of their actions? Or is a hex a fire and brimstone catastrophe?

From a personal point of view, I should make it clear that I don't hex at the drop of a hat, and I don't spend all day thinking about wrongs to right - there are too many, and Xalle's point about "where do you draw the line" most definitely applies. It is a last resort, and I've always said that and it's something I always abide by.

Let's look at the flip side then - where you could do something nice, something good to help someone out - would you intercede/interfere then? Perform a healing for a sick friend who hasn't asked you for it? Help police find a missing child alive and well?

Well in that case I'll leave the loose terminology aside and try to cut to the chase, so to speak. I had the good fortune of two grandparents, who passed on some unmistakeable psychic talents. One was an immigration inspector who's ability to
"read" people was truly phenomenal. His wife was a highly clairvoyant empath also well versed in herbal medicine. Though herbal medicine is an art in itself, I certainly inherited the psychic skills of both these people, that indeed required alot of discipline in my youth. In matters of discipline I had the fortune of a very honourable Prussian grandfather. Once having mastered all that, it was no problem defining cause and effect, and I have thus inclined to evaluate any circumstance in those terms, rather than morally. As you have indicated, Pomona, no one is an island per-se, all things have their influence whether we realize it or not. In my Prussian grandfather's words: "There is a time and place for everything."

There was an instance where I aided the RCMP in locating a criminal I had known personally, and was still able to read him clearly through an empathic bond. Needless to say, the information was a dead ringer. Such matters I prefer to handle discretely, because as an empath I have an aversion to public attention. It simply bombards me with too much empathic noise and there are some people's psyches that are very disturbing. As for the criminal, it was his malingering hopes of incorporating my ability into his schemes that made me leery. He was in hiding in Florida after being presumeably lost at sea. This seeming fate was a convenient deception, while him and his mates made off with a large haul of Spanish gold they had illicitly salvaged in the Gulf of St. Lawrence. I made my report to the authorities once I was well away from that continent.

Simple answer ... Have I 'interfeared' magically in a situation without the request to do so, Yes.
And, yes, I have done that both for healing matters and for 'hexing' type matters. (you will see why I put that in quotes latter)

BUT
It is never something that I do without thought, in that initial moment of it grabbing my heart strings. Such magic is too undirected, to apt to fizzle out or go off at a tangent, catching the unintended along the way... and as I believe I am responsable for my actions (not karma per say) and that everything has a price. I want to be sure I am doing the right thing in the best posible way... the differnace between using a sledge hammer and nut cracker to get at the kerrnal.. both will work but it is likely to be a lot less messy if I use the right tool for the job.
So sometimes that ends up being practical things like donations to charity, or getting out there and physiaclly doing something (litter picks being a good example when you are angry at people dumping rubbish) or as a last resort well thought out magic.

As for what form that magic takes...well that is much more case by case, but in general it is Justice that I ask for... I remember the Jessica and Holly thing and at that time I set out a bit of magic... in order I asked for...
That they be found well and quickly... That the police and other services would have the strenght , courage and corectness of path to do thier jobs.
That if that was not posible, that they would be found...that thier ending had been as swift and painless as posible, that thier parents would have comfort...
And that if this was the case.. that the perpotrators would be found, that they would be racked with guilt for thier doings, that the full price for what they had done would fall upon them, that it would leave them no peace untill the price was paied in full. That they would feel compled to give themselves up. That justice would be served.

It is only in the last bit that I let my rage flow... that I really 'hexed' but even then it was tempered. It was not open ended and there were ways the perpotrators could 'escape' the magic.
After it came to it's sad conclussion... I also did a second part to the magic... Thanking the powers that be for thier assistance in this matter, and reenforcing the justice part for the police and the comfort parts for the parents and the release parts... when the price is paied...

My magic, when I get to serious spell casting, is never simple.

Just thoughts
Be bright, be bold
Fillionous

Sorry Pomona if it came across that I was trying to give you some sort of validation.

Im not very good at explaining myself sometimes.

In a simple straight answer to your question then, yes I have done in the past and will do in the future. For me its the inability to stand by and watch something wrong being done to another person or animal or land.

For me (not trying to say its the same for everyone) I cant stand by and watch someone or something being harmed if its within my power to do something about it. I wouldnt sit by and watch someone being bullied I would say something.

Actually thinking about it now, I guess its just a matter of degrees.

Many of us sign petitions to either get things done or get things stopped. Many would step into a situation where someone was being bullied or harmed or we'd call the police or, well, we'd do something. I guess for me this is just an extension of it. And yes, your quite right, many people would and Im sure do, do nice things for people, I mean even on here people ask for positive energies to help them with things and we all quite happily do what we can, its the flipside of the same coin isnt it? Isnt it???