Going to be a bit plain spoken here as I remember some years back seeing a guy talking about PEBBLE at a conference and thinking 'okay, right, well, you can talk, but what can you do?'

I was sitting here thinking 'y'know, I haven't heard anything about these guys since that day, I’ll have a quick look and see where they're at'. I clicked their homepage: http://www.pebble.uk.net/ - I don't know if it's working for anybody else but it's not that informative for me.

I started thinking, 'is this a genuine, pro-active consultation body, or is this another group of loosely hung non-incorporated voluntary organisations playing at titles?' Which does sound a little harsh as I don't doubt that a lot of the original intention was really well founded and born of a good heart. But I find it a little odd that you never hear anything about them, none of the minutes, meetings, information is available through their site or affiliated bodies; do they run focus groups? Public consultations? Have they ever been consulted on anything? Are they constituted? How are they funded? What are their objectives?

I don't know anyone who's been consulted by them, I've never seen a politically relevant story that makes mention of them...what's going on? Do I like the idea of a group claiming to be an advisory panel on my faith who I know nothing about?

So, PEBBLE. What you ever done for me?

All ears.

Best wishes,

Marion.

This seemed a good idea when it was mooted, unfortunately it seems also to have been hijacked by a certain group who are using it as a way to justify themselves. Our 'Pebble' reps have heard nothing about any consultations, or anything else.

HI,

Here are the last minutes of the PEBBLE meeting last september

Since then we're still in discussion about census issues....

And going to TUC equality meetings.....

And have provided information packs to every tribunal office in the
UK...

And have the next meeting in March.

Jon Randall

PEBBLE Meeting

* Date: Saturday 30 September 2006
* Location: Oxford
* Time: 11am

Present:

* Jacq Dobson (DP)
* Pat Dunnicliffe (DP)
* Angela Grant (TDN and Web Editor)
* Emma Restall-Orr (TDN)
* Belinda Winder (PF)

Further Abbreviations Used Throughout:

* CoBDO : Council of British Druid Orders
* DP : Derbyshire Pagans
* HFP : Heathens for Progress
* PA : Pagan Association
* PF : Pagan Federation
* PN : Pagan Network
* TDN : The Druid Network

MINUTES

1. Apologies for Absence
Apologies were received from Steve Wilson and Liz Murray (CoBDO). It was acknolwedged that the PN's representatives have both stepped away from the PN. We await news from their forthcoming AGM. In addition, the PA and HFP were absent, with no apologies received.
2. PEBBLE partnerships
Derbyshire Pagans were welcomed to the meeting. It was agreed that they met all eight criteria and their affiliation with PEBBLE was approved by a unanimous vote.
A discussion took place with regard to current and possible partners of PEBBLE. It was agreed that, due to the lack of contact and communication from Heathens for Progress, it would be wrong to continue to include them as PEBBLE partners. AG was consequently tasked with updating the website to this effect. It was mooted that PEBBLE partners should aim to recruit some Heathen organisations to ensure that they were represented by PEBBLE (although, it was noted that many Heathen did belong to current PEBBLE partners, such as the PF and TDN).
In addition, it was decided that two large Pagan organisations missing from PEBBLE were the Children of Artemis (CoA) and The Order of Bards Ovates and Druids (OBOD). CoA have expressed an interest already, while OBOD may not meet the eight criteria. It was agreed that representatives of both of these organisations would be invited to the next PEBBLE meeting. BW would contact CoA, while ERO would contact OBOD.
3. 2011 Census
Jon Randall (Pentacle magazine) had contacted both ERO and BW with regard to his initiative to ensure that the numbers of Pagans in the UK were accurately recorded in the next UK Census. This was following a successful campaign by Australian Pagans to get people to respond to the religious orientation question in the Census as Pagan - (termed Pagan Dash), encouraging individuals to add their particular path after the Pagan if they wished to give more details. There was a unanimous agreement to support Jon and his campaign. BW was to write to Jon to request information for the PEBBLE website, that could perhaps also be used by partner organizations on their websites.
4. Diversity / Equality
SW had submitted a request from Huh to link to the PEBBLE webpages. This request highlighted the fact that PEBBLE did not have their diversity / equality statement displayed on the website currently. BW to circulate the equality / diversity statement, with a view to PEBBLE members formally agreeing to adopt the statement, which would then be published on the website.
In addition, it was agreed that we should also link to INFORM, an organisation set up by the Home Office to disseminate information on religious movements. ERO to send AG information on INFORM.
5. Pagan Oaths
From 3 August 2006, it became possible for Pagans to be sworn in at tribunals and courts using the new Pagan oath, rather than having to affirm (i.e. make a non-religious oath). This means that anyone appearing as a witness, defendant, or accused in any kind of court or tribunal (e.g. magistrates' courts, crown courts: anywhere you have to swear an oath to tell the truth in a formal setting) can now state that they wish to swear by the Pagan oath.
The oath is 'by all that I hold sacred' and should be added to the traditional words of 'I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth … by all that I hold sacred'.
An advisor from the Department for Constitutional Affairs informed us "there is no need for further discussion as the wording for the Pagan oath has been circulated. People can start using it from this moment".
It was agreed that a new page be put on the website disseminating this information. On the page, we would ask for feedback from anyone who has used the Pagan oath, in order that we monitor any deleterious (or positive) effects.
6. Media coverage of Pagans and Paganism
It was agreed that any specious coverage of Pagans, Paganism, or acts attributed to Pagans in ignorance, should be directed towards the PF or TDN to deal with. Tolerance in this regard is not the best course, as the media then believe they can get away with such talk, or continue in their ignorance. Although media coverage has become more accurate and fair over the last few years, it appears there are still some widespread misunderstandings about the religion.
7. Festival of Remembrance
BW reported that she had been contacted by a Pagan ex-serviceman who was dismayed to see no Pagan representation at the Festival of Remembrance (which takes place every year at the Cenotaph). All agreed that this was something that should be addressed and BW agreed to contact the Dept. of Constitutional Affairs with a view to opening a dialogue with the relevant government department.
8. Date of Next Meeting
The next meeting was scheduled for Saturday 31 March 2007 at 11.30am, in Oxford.

From 3 August 2006, it became possible for Pagans to be sworn in at tribunals and courts using the new Pagan oath, rather than having to affirm (i.e. make a non-religious oath). This means that anyone appearing as a witness, defendant, or accused in any kind of court or tribunal (e.g. magistrates' courts, crown courts: anywhere you have to swear an oath to tell the truth in a formal setting) can now state that they wish to swear by the Pagan oath.
The oath is 'by all that I hold sacred' and should be added to the traditional words of 'I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth … by all that I hold sacred'.

This had little or nothing to do with Pebble or the PF.

If not the campaigning of various organizations, who did sort it then?

And as a side note, it is not a right to use the Pagan oath, as the judge or magistrate does not have to allow it.

Jon

So, whilst this thread is still active and one of the PEBBLE representatives has posted to the thread, how about people make some suggestions for things they would LIKE to see PEBBLE getting involved with.

It's easy to shoot people down with dismissive comments about one of the items listed on their last agenda (and I didn't see any reference to PEBBLE of the PF claiming responsibility for the Pagan Oath item in the minutes, simply a statement about a development in terms of Pagan rights since the previous meeting).

So, let's hear those suggestions folks.

BB

Mike

I think perhaps they should up their marketing campaign because I had never heard of them before.

I dont think they have it easy mind trying to represent such a large and diverse group as pagan's tend to be.

I dont really know what I want them to do for me. Im sure others will be able to think of something but Ive never really encountered any problems with being pagan that need sorting out.

I think perhaps it should be tought in schools a bit more, as there was no info on Paganism when i was in school. The only thing that has ever hacked me off was the fact that I wasn't allowed to miss out on christian assemblies at school because paganism was just a "fad" not a proper religion. Since im going to be 27 this year and havn't been in school for a very long time I dont even know if this is relevant.

temps (pondering stuffs)

Some interesting thoughts there. Marketing.... Always a tricky one. There is a major link on the PF site and I imagine there are links of one sort or another on the sites of other member organisations. I wonder if it would be an idea to have someone from PEBBLE do a speaking slot at Pagan festivals and conferences.

I know that PEBBLE have been linked with the push to encourage Pagans to try to become members of their local SACREs (Standing Advisory Council on Religious Education), specifically with the purpose of encouraging a better reflection and understanding of Paganism within schools.

With regard to opting out of Christian assemblies.... part of that will be down to individual schools. But I know that parents have the right to ask schools to make alternative arrangements for their children if the wish their children to be withdrawn from assemblies on religious grounds. This has been the case for a while. But it has to come from the parents. There is still an odd attitude to children and whether they can make decisions about things like religion for themselves. It annoys me as a teacher that we're so disrespectful to our children. But on the other hand, sometimes it really IS just a fad. I wonder if we should still respect the choice even if it is a fad though. Perhaps we should. It would certainly be empowering and a useful educational exercise.

I must hasten to add that I am not a representative of PEBBLE. I just try to keep up to speed with what they're doing as I see them as a very useful group. The thing about PEBBLE is that they are working with bureaucracy, which can, and does make progress extremely difficult. The same can be said for interfaith stuff. So every and any progressive step that is taken is a hard won step.

BB

Mike

Hi Arianrhod

I think we need to clarify this. The discussion about the Pagan Oath was instigated and carried through by Belinda Winder, the PF Vice President and their PEBBLE representative. It was the words themselves that came from yours truly.

I hope that clarifies it, and personally I think it is one achievement that PEBBLE can be proud of.

However as time goes on, I think PEBBLE will find it a lot harder to avoid the petty politics that dog pagan organisations, so what the long term prognosis will be, I have no idea. The powers that be will think pagans are a bunch of kooky weirdos no matter what we do. If we dress in suits and speak eloquently we freak them out, if we wear strange clothing and speak dopily, we confirm their prejudices. We can't win either way, I guess that's just human nature.

bb
Rhiannon

When the first announcement was made (Beltane Bash 2004), it was presented as the one voice for the many pagan traditions. Nowadays, it seems to me it's the many different voices who are encouraged to do things in the name of the one voice. Which seems to defeat the original purpose (as I understood it, anyways). So I can't help but be somewhat cynical with regards to Pebble at the moment.

I do find it interesting that media coverage is shared between the Druids and 'all other pagans' lol. I suppose that's because the Druids have a high profile at public places and attract the most attention?

Thanks for the minutes. Can I also get the constitution please? And what are the conditions organisations need to meet in order to join? How do you choose who to invite to apply?

I can't say what I’d like it to do until I know what it's supposed to be doing

As LT says though - publicity. That doesn't just mean reaching the members of your member organisations, it also means reaching the wider pagan community, the majority of which, I’d hazard, are not members of organisations. That'll be the tricky bit.

How about a newsletter carried in member organisation publications, free online, sent out to moots etc? And an annual report.

What is the status of the body? Is it an unincorp VO, an incorporated VO, and who are the Trustees, if any?

Cheers,

Marion.

Yes it's a professional looking set of minutes - but from a personal point of view I don't want or need these people to represent me - which I'm sure must be a great relief to them! Obivously if they want to do it for themselves, it's their time and money, I just feel the ordinary laws of the land and rules of conduct for the media protect the average punter like me in as reasonable a way as can be expected in an imperfect system.

As for taking an oath in a court of law, I would have just one and one only for every citizen: I solemnly swear to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Why drag reigion into it all? Does swearing by a god or godess make the truth more truthful? No.

So are HFP in or out of being PEBBLE partners? I heard that they were out and then I heard that they were in - what's a Heathen to believe nowadays?!

Also, have any other Heathen groups gotten involved with PEBBLE yet? Are there any possible candidates?

That's the best suggestion I've seen on this matter yet, sometimes it's the simplest solution that's the best.

Satyat Nasti Paro Dharmah Fully agree on that one.

It has long been the practice in courts of law to offer either the swearting on the bible or the affirmation. It was the Quakers (who refuse to swear) who established to right to affirm. the wording of the affirmation is:
"I do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth."

They appear to have a swanky nice website update but they're well over two months overdue for the meeting:

"The next meeting was scheduled for Saturday 31 March 2007 at 11.30am, in Oxford."

Running to Pagan time?

Marion.

However I do like this:


--------

Pagan Oath


3 August 2006

From 3 August 2006, it became possible for Pagans to be sworn in at tribunals and courts using the new Pagan oath, rather than having to affirm (i.e. make a non-religious oath). This means that anyone appearing as a witness, defendant, or accused in any kind of court or tribunal (e.g. magistrates' courts, crown courts - basically anywhere you have to swear an oath to tell the truth in a formal setting) can now state that they wish to swear by the Pagan oath.

The oath is 'by all that I hold sacred' and should be added to the traditional words of 'I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth … by all that I hold sacred'.

An advisor from the Department for Constitutional Affairs has told me "there is no need for further discussion as the wording for the Pagan oath has been circulated. People can start using it from this moment".


1 October 2006

Following the news above, I would like to invite anyone who has used the Pagan oath to let me know as would like to monitor its reception in courts and tribunals. Please contact me at partners@pebble.uk.net

Belinda Winder, PEBBLE

----------------

I think the wording is nice: 'by all that I hold sacred'.

To what extent is PEBBLE responsible for this?

Anyone had to use it? Is that really particularly Pagan though or just generic?

I think Rhi clarifies PEBBLE's involvement in the oath...

I'm not the slightest bit interested in campaigning etc so I think PEBBLE and PF are useful in that regard - my main issue with such groups is that they aren't really representative of paganism.. only the more mainstream paths. PF for instance use to insist that it's members agreed to abide by a set of rules, which were incredibly Wiccan in flavour. I do believe after complaints this has been changed.. no longer interested tho. I'm with Nick, the laws etc we have are perfectly servicable.

"speaking dopily" - what does that mean...?

"speaking eloquently" why should that freak anyone out?

What's wrong with speaking plainly and frankly?

What is "strange clothing"? and why are they associated with "speaking dopily"?

For that matter why is wearing a suit associated with "speaking eloquently"?

So many questions - but I'm confused - can anyone help?

The latest minutes...



The latest minutes come from a discussion here.

It seems from the above that HFP are back in, although Steve Wilson (in the thread those minutes came from) denies they were ever out, despite that the last meeting they went to before the most recent was in April 2005. There are Heathens in other PEBBLE groups, like the PF, and when the PF need Heathen info they go to the UK Heathenry Yahoo group, which IMO is a good thing - they were responsible for the excellent Heathen section on the BBC site.

What is PEBBLE actually doing for Heathens though? Considering PEBBLE as an umberella group, in theory they could use the wieight of their member groups' achievements to be a united voice for Paganism to the government. Everything done so far has been done by member groups, and although for eample the Pagan oath will be able to be used by Heathens, Druids, Wiccans, general Pagans etc, there is nothing specifically Heathen.

The Odinic Rite, despite their political leanings, are the closest to "recognition" through their own actions, not that they are a group I'd consider joining! I think the potential for PEBBLE is there, if they can do what they say they will then they are worth supporting. However, PEBBLE isn't the only group out there or theirs the only path to follow to gain recognition. Many others are busy quietly working in their own fields in a way that is gaining respect and recognition for Heathen/polytheist beliefs in their own spheres of influence - the Association of Polytheist Traditions for example are well worth looking at, especially as a Heathen.

The APT decided not to join Pebble a while back, before I became Helm. If I remember correctly, it was decided that there was nothing that could not be done by directly contacting the Home Office about any concerns, and that the representative nature of the Pebble organisation gave cause for concern to the membership of the APT.

There has been no approach from our membership to reconsider this decision.

The various parts of the Human Rights Act are sufficient to form a basis to petition the Home Office about any issues relating to a person's spiritual
or religious beliefs.

--

Jez

Trust me, you don't want to know what i think of PEBBLE, my views are so cerosive they'd melt concrete >.<

That said PF seems to believe they own PEBBLE, and that makes me worried. It was supposed top be a universal pagan group, not dominated by one faction.

Frankly though, i think its a waste of time, in the time they've been running they havent achieved anything of note. And that includes the pagan 'oath' since a judge can refuse it if he wants. Long before PEBBLE came along pagan oaths were allowed in court, it was (and is) always upto the presiding judge if he'll allow it.

Hell there was even a guy allowed to swear on a sword, a woman swore on her BOS, another on an amulate and others by the traditions oaths.

Not to mention that PEBBLE is as hypocritocal as they come. There was a TV series on TV a few years ago called Judging Amy. Based in a court room, one of the stories was based on a true happening with pagans. A mother was being sued for custody by her ex husband, claiming that she was teaching their son demonic stuff by allowing him to partake in her rituals. The mother said it was her right, since if shewas xtian and taught him that it wouldnt be a problem. She's raising him in her faith as her mother had raised her in hers.

Anyways she called in the american equivalent of PEBBLE to testify, and they crucified her, said she was a bad pagan and deserved to lose her child, all because the mother didnt follow thier tenets. (awsome episode, ive got it on vid, ill dig it out and post it on youtube or someit).

Anyways, PEBBLE has already done the same, they have a clause in their aplication saying your tradition mustn't being paganism into disrepute. Well my path fell afoul of that little clause. We use blood magic, and according to PEBBLE that brings paganism into disrepute, we also use to a lesser extent, tantric, which also brings it into disrepute.

Nice to see PEBBLE is open minded and willing to accept others traditions and points isnt it

PEBBLE is only for main stream paganism, they're the catholics of the pagan world.

And im getting angry again so i'll shut up now

well that's kicked off that debate again. Sounds like you've had some inside experience there. Got the vehemence a lot of people directed towards the PF a few years ago and sound like me on a CoA rant

lol if by CoA you mean Children of Artemis they're another bunch of hypocrites that i personally ran afoul of. The owners of the site are all right, the mods they use to oversee the site are evil though, bunch of hitlers in robes >.<

Nooo, they're all evil lol It's the bit where they e-mailed the directors of the organisation I worked for telling them I was blackmailing them that did it for me the other guy who lent his sympathy and told me about the time they contacted his family and told them he was gay certainly took the sparkle out of the relationship. Some groups are just daft and over-inflated, these guys are actually nasty, well and truly. I've still got the e-mail framed. I'm looking forward to meeting the author some day

I hadn't joined this forum at that point, but I believe someone else saw the story as there's a thread on it. Pagan Prattle are nothing if not supportive of the under-dog.

Having just this second seen that, Weather: the reasonable change was that they weren't asked to make any change. A service otherwise costing in excess of £250-£500 was offered for free. No effort required on their part. Fairfield Halls doesn't charge interpreters or mobility aids so whilst using their premises it was against all reasonableness to do it themselves. Believe me, if you'd been on the phone as long as I had you'd have wondered if it was a £1-a-minute number.

Aaaaanyway, that argument is long since buried although, as I’m no longer in employment (not because of them though, despite their best efforts), I don't have much to lose by calling them a bunch of turds especially, what was her name... Rachel, their 'Administrator of the Children of Artemis website'. Such a nice person, I’m sure her mother would be very proud of her.

However, somehow they do manage to attract one or two decent speakers who have a heart of gold. Guy who particularly impressed me was Ralph Harvey? He seemed like a jolly nice fella and was very happy to stop and chat to Deaf people attending a PA conference a couple of years back. But then people of that calibre hopefully don't get too embroiled in the crap that goes on, made of better stuff.

So yeah, I can understand the 'what a bunch of wazuks' outlook on dis-organised groups. They give pagans a very bad name and, like many small-time barely constituted voluntary organisations, are seldom run out of the goodness of somebody's heart.

Can't help thinking the last few posts probably should be tagged on the end of the PEBBLE thread

Can't help wondering why the ACLU is considered to be the American equivalent of PEBBLE. The ACLU does not just concern itself with Pagan rights. I suppose everyone is entitled to their own opinions. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating. But if people believe that PEBBLE or any other organmisation is about to overturn centuries of a particularly Christo-centric legal system overnight then it really is no wonder that people are going to be disappointed. If people are going to choose to go out on a limb and state that such and such oprganisation most certainly doesn't represent them then frankly I don't see why they feel they have the right to rant when said organisations don't come up with the goods they believe they should, when they should.

I'm a tad fed up with whingers is all. If you don't want to be represented then fine. You won't be. All you need to say when someone asks is that you'd rather stand alone. In the meantime people ARE getting on with things by working through the systems. That is the way change happens. There are insufficient numbers of us Pagans to start a revolution and the last one we had in this country lasted somewhat less than half a century IIRC. So, for those who are prepared to let people get on with actually doing the legwork in trying to work with government, hopefully you will understand that government doesn't change overnight, but IS changing. For those of you who don't believe anything will come of it and don't want to be associated, that's cool. I don't tell you how to run your lives or what priorities you should have. Perhaps you might consider avoiding the pitfall of dictating the same to others who are at least trying to get off their arses and actually DO SOMETHING for the Pagan community.

Mike

I did, I founded a voluntary organisation legally constituted with a network of volunteers nation wide, a board of trustees and even its own letter heading lol

What I dislike tremendously were the groups and individuals we came into contact with who had no desire to live in the spirit of the voluntary sector, work in partnerships that meant giving the slightest inch and upheld the ego before all other considerations.

And it's a prerogative to whinge, if you don't like it quit listening Everyone else has.

It's not a minor whinge though, it's a real and valid concern that people are utter fuckin' bastards when they think they're in power or control over someone else and pagans are just as self-righteous and unpleasant and totally fucking inept as any other lot, after all we're human.

It saddened me a great deal to see the disgusting waste of potential. And thus, when you realise smacking your head against a mountain only gives you a headache, you stop. But still you can laugh about those 'good ol' days'

I laugh constantly about the fact I didn't kill somebody

Yeah, so PS, if anyone thinks they could do better I'll back you all the way in setting up your own organisation. I dare you. I tried it and wouldn't ever do it again, but I would support to the hilt anybody else's desire to self-mutilate their own belief in the goodness of human nature lol

Who said the ACLU is the american equiv of PEBBLE, not any one here? I looked and i sure as hell didn't?

PEBBLE failed as soon as they started spliting pagans into good and bad, they have no right to do so, it flies in the face of everything being pagan is meant to be.

NOONE has the right to say another person is a bad pagan just because they don't like thier practices, especially when that person works for a body that suppoedly advises the government on changes that effect pagans.

Also PEBBLE hasn't achieved anything, no changes or anything. Your standard rights groups have achieved more for pagans than PEBBLE ever has or ever will

hmmm think i'll have a coffee then rip PEBBLE down one side and up the other on my blog, had a lot ive wanted to say about them for a long time

Then perhaps you could tell me who WAS being referred to.



Really? I thought they split Pagans in terms of a) who had 50 members or more and who was actually an organisation set up to serve the community and who was an organisation set up to run as a business. Perhaps you have some documentary evidence to the contrary you would like to share.



Quite right. But of course, if someones actions are a discredit to the Pagan community as a whole then it might not be such a good idea to show support for them.



Really? Hmmm, not what I have heard and seen. Also, as stated, PEBBLE is working with a system that a) doesn't understand what Pagans are about (and in some cases, if they're anything other than a group of fantacists) and is intrinsically set up to favour Abrahamic faiths with Christianity at the top of the heap. Dramatic changes are unlikely to occur.

But no one is asking you to support PEBBLE. But if you spout nonsense then you can expect to have it pointed out.



As is your right. It's your blog after all. If you happen to post nonsense on your blog then that is entirely your choice. There are plenty of blogs out there that seem to do nothing else. Perhaps yous is one of them.

Mike

Good stuff. Of course the ideal would be that any efforts would be co-ordinated so we don't come acorss as totally unable to communicate with each other. But that is as simple as sending a message to someone in other organisations and saying 'We're going to do this.... just a heads up'.



Now there I am in complete agreement. Ego politics is something I have made it plain I won't bend to.



Then again, if it is a prerogative to whinge then I could always choose to make it my prerogative to object to the whinging.



Yep, that's some of that ego politics I don't like and will reject.



Not got the headache yet and my last attempt at smacking my head against a mountain appeared to move the mountain a bit. So I'll keep doing that as long as it seems to get somewhere.

BB

Mike

If memory serves it was the Pagan's Association of America over a year since i saw it, so i'll have to dig it out of the collection to verify.


of course, taken from their site:



That in itself isnt the problem, its those that decide what causes disrepute thats the issue. Blood rites, tantric arts and other elememts are all branded as causing disrepute. How do i know,? Read up, as i said earlier my Path was refused entry to PEBBLE simply because we use blood rites.



As i said up, it's who makes the decisions about what causes disrepute. Frankly some of those who decided cause more disrepute themselves than any other group i can think of *cough*Pagan Federation*cough*



Problem is PEBBLE dosent seem to understand pagans any better than the governement does, oh they understand their own little party of pagans, but they're as blinkered as the government is, and that makes them worse than the government.



Where have i spoken nonsense? I've backep up everything ive said with info and experience. If PEBBLE was genuinely interested in making changes to the system, rather than putting up appearances, and were willing to accept that not all pagans are going to follow their beliefs, then id support them.

When PEBBLE firststarted we all had high hopes for them, but they soon proved themselves to be a waste of time full of power hungry idiots who are only interested in advancing their own agenda. It's time for them to stop spliting pagans into good and bad and start focusing on the issues at hand. If they did that they'ed have more support and more members. As it is all they're doing is alienating other pagan groups.



Just because you dont agree with it dosent make it nonsense, i dont agree with alot of what you say, dosent make it nonsense, just means i dont agree with it. And yes its my right, its my blog and i can say what ever the bells i like.

The episode of judging amy i was talkimg about is this one:

Episode 6 - Witch Hunt - First aired October 19, 1999 - A woman fights for custody of her son after the boy's father claims that her practice of the Wiccan religion makes her an unfit mother; Vincent gets an agent; in the week before Halloween, Lauren gets spooked by some older boys; Amy confronts narrow-minded attitudes at the P.T.A. meeting; in direct defiance of Susie's orders, Maxine pursues the search for a boy missing from a family with a history of child abuse.

Can't remember where i put it, but i think its in storage in which case it'll have to wait till my stuff is delivered on friday for me to dig it out and rewatch

Dear Tiamat's Disciple,



I'm sure the Pagan Federation would be most concerned that you've got a cough. I'm sure the Pagan Federation would strongly advise you to take a hot toddy and lie down until you feel better.

Decisions within the Pagan Federation in England & Wales are made within a constitutional framework under democratic oversight. Decisions within the Pagan Federation in Scotland are made by democratically elected representatives. Can you suggest a better way of making collective decisions? Priest-Kings perhaps? Or a system of divination based on scrutinising the folds in an orange dressing gown?

The PF is a very imperfect instrument but it's a very imperfect world and folk just do the best they can. You sound like someone who's been around for a while. If reckon you can do better, why haven't you?

BB,

John Macintyre

PF is as corrupt and bent as they come, they pick fights with other pagan groups over silly little things, make mountains out of mole hills and basicly generate enough bad press on thier own to fill a book.

As for your last comment we do ToT is a council run group with 7 members on the council. When PEBBLE first came about we figured it would be better to join forces than stand divided. However they in all their wisdom (heavy sarcasam) decided we were a discredit to paganism since we use blood rites and tantric. How would YOU feel if you were told you were a bad pagan simply because you followed a different path?

John, sweet John, this is turning into a bit of a running theme:

'If you could do better...'

I love a challenge Seriously perhaps it should be done - if not better than at least different. Most successful religious organisations of any type are successful not because they see to their own community but because they see to the community - to young people, elderly people, rehabbers and delinquents - they make a difference to everybody’s lives where they can.

The occasional DN tree planting is an example, the PF have a youth section I believe - is that mainly for Pagan yoof?

See, whenever Pagans themselves hit the media it's often 'me me me' - as with this Homer episode 'my land', 'our way of life', 'our community', 'our group', 'my rights'.

You combat that by doing something for everyone - be it an event, a charitable programme or whatever. That's what you don't see a lot of. That's what it would be nice to change. Altruistic work first, paganism second. A lot of the Quakers hit that balance - do something good and hey, if you want a leaflet about what we believe in too, here you go. The Falun Gong and Buddhists are similar - free food, but if you'd like to come meditate with us you'd be welcome.

That's the kind of community project I’m talking about. It's the kind of organisation I’d support.

Dear Tiamat's Disciple



You are a liar, laddie. You are also a coward to defame others from behind a pseudonym. Further exchange of views on this point can wait until our paths cross in the real world.

BB,

John Macintyre

They already have several times in fact. I've run across PF several times over the past 4 years, both in person and online which were always fun events (heavy sarcasm again).

Do you think i woke up this morning and just decided i'd pick on the PF cause it was handy? Do you rally want me to list ALL of the grievences both I personally and the Temple has against them? No i wont simply cause the thread would be derailed even further. Though if you want feel free to go to my blog and put your vews, i'll happily debate away with you there

Now as for my name here, it isnt a pseudonym, it's a title from within the Temple, i don't hide behind it, i've used this name for over 6 years on all the forums im a member of.

As for the rest Thanir says what i feel perfectly, so i wont repeat it, i also think it's probably wise to move these posts to the pebble thread since its getting further away from the topic.

Mod Hat ON

Okay I've moved the posts over from the other thread.

Really, Hern, darling, was it worth getting all dressed up just to say that?

x

LMAO well I figured I needed the practice since I've not been about much

That's true - where have you been?

I've had connection difficulties, still not properly sorted out yet

The "bringing paganism into disrepute" is used to prevent any far right organisations, such as those that promote ethnic cleansing, child abuse etc. (unfortuantely the Odinists seem to attract the odd extremist right-winger, and I know that there have been a few nutcases who have used their claimed "paganism" as an excuse for despicable acts).

There is certainly nothing against blood rights, though I guess animal sacrifice by anyone other than a trained butcher would probably be frowned on by most people, not just pagans or PEBBLE. Nor is there anything against tantric rights.

To join PEBBLE an organisation has to be able to prove a certain level of "real life" membership. Having huge numbers on an online forum doesn't count. Nor does simply being a member of a path with lots of members - for instance, the "Gardnerians" don't get to have a representative, nor do the "Alexandrians". PEBBLE requires membership of an organisation, not a path.

PEBBLE might not be perfect, I certainly have some major concerns, and that's despite the Pagan Association being part of PEBBLE. However, it's the best thing we've got to deal with bureaucrats at the moment.

At the last PEBBLE meeting your proposed membership wasn't brought up, so hasn't been discussed, nor can I find any mention in the minutes. Our next meeting is in a couple of months time. If you have made a formal approach and can give me the names of the persons representing your organisation who made the approach, I will raise the question as to why an organisation has been turned down without it being brought before the committee.

Rhiannon

Maybe I'm in the wrong place as an interfaith rep for the PF, based on what you're saying. Maybe some of the things I've been saying publically about where interfaith starts.... getting out and doing stuff with the wider community FOR the wider community, just doesn't fit in with your conception of the PF. Funnily enough the various people I report to on PF committee haven't had the slightest problem with what I've said though. In fact, they've echoed what I've said. The thing is that the PF is a representative group. If people don't actually get up and DO stuff in their wider community, with their wider community and for their wider community then saying that stuff is not really going to be representative of the Pagan community the PF represents. Fortunately there ARE Pagans who do that kind of thing. Nowhere near enough. But we all have busy lives and it is true that there is only so much anyone has the time for. Sadly there are plenty who seem to be into Paganism for the social scene.... just to hang out with some cool people and intellectualise about this or that Babylonian God and this or that way of calling the quarters.... you know the kind of thing.... and are not into Paganism for practising their beliefs and being a part of their community as followers of their beliefs.

There's been a lot in this thread about how terrible this organisation or that organisation is. There may well be some justification in some of the comments that have been made. (TD, I'd be interested to know which group you are a member of that has been barred from inclusion in PEBBLE.... but probably better away from the public eye) There may be exaggerations made.... mountains out of mole hills I think someone said.

I remember several years ago when I had a major beef with the PF. They had acted badly towards someone I cared about..... 'they'... what did I mean by 'they'? Well actually what I meant was that a few people who were movers and shakers in the PF. Not the whole PF. 'They' had acted 'badly'..... well what did I mean by that? They'd ruined their lives? They had maimed them? No? Ok, so they'd pushed them from a position they held at the time. Well why on earth did they do that? They felt that my friend had been failng to deal with a situation in a way that met the professional standards of the PF. There were personality clashes thrown in there too. Ok, so it was really about a few people having issues with another person. NOT about the PF as a whole being crooked......


anyway, I had this major beef with the PF. Then I thought about what the PF actually was..... a group created of its membership. Now experience has taught me that screaming and hollaring at something from the outside tends to fall on closed ears. Ranks close, barriers go up. No progress is made. So the only way forward would be to actually become a member and see if I could help lead to positive change from within. You know what I found? People within who felt the same way. People even at committee level who felt the same way.... that there was a need for change. That there were things that were not working right and needed to be changed. A recent message went out with Pagan Dawn asking for subscribers and members to comment on things thety felt were right with the PF and things they felt needed to be changed. You can bet I filled that in. But just saying what needs to be changed is only a part of the story. Change needs people to lead that change. So hopefully I'll be able to help that along. (Yes, I'm paying particular attention to what is said by people who have problems with the PF and with PEBBLE and will raise those points at times when I feel they will be heard. I'm sure John is doing the same.) I'm hoping that being on the inside raising those concerns will mean that they get heard.

It's the same story with working with government. You need to be on the inside if you're going to help change along. You need to be working WITH government in order to be heard. So, in a way, that is what PEBBLE is about. Now if anyone knows anything about working with government then you'll know that the wheels of change are constantly rusted up and need greasing and a lot of energy and time for any movement to be noticeable. That's just how it is.

Lots of things happen behind the scenes. People talk to other people and, as the same message gets repeated from a variety of sources, pennies drop and gradually the right people start repeating what they've heard said to them and change begins to occur. Of course, conflicting messages tend to snarl things up. But rather than challenge that independance that we all hold dear to our hearts and dismiss those who make conflicting statements as 'Not real Pagans', the foundations of what was being developed are rebuilt and the processes start again.... (you'll recall me mentioning communication in my last post.... if people are informed of the more public activities then it helps people avoid having to do so much rebuilding of foundations.... and yes, I would agree that it is a two way thing. It's one of the main things I point out in both PEBBLE and the PF- the need to communicate what is going on.... and yes, I agree that those isues are not being successfully addressed yet. But they are on the agenda!) But things ARE happening. Hopefully you'll begin to hear about them sooner in the future. Change IS happening. Hopefully you'll begin to notice it soon.

(.... TD, just read Rhiannons message..... better to go through her. )

BB

Mike

Quite probably

Hear what you're saying though, but the soul wears down and a lot of good people haven't got enough fight. You must know that from local government.