I thought this was interesting - anyone care to comment?
[ Here's a note on the etymology of certain words with reference to sacred female obscenities. First, obscene itself stems from the Greek ob ('toward') and scene ('temporary shelter'), denoting the places of women's ritual worship and celebration before such things were found to be inappropriate and even disgusting (as the word 'obscene' is now defined). Hussy comes from Pagan huzza dancers who celebrated the god-goddess Bezbeh. Whore may refer to the hora dance of Jewish women, and/or the Egyptian goddess Hathor, also known as Hor, thus Yahweh is said to complain of his people 'whoring' after other Gods. Furthermore, the term prostitute developed from female initiatory rites in which devotees prostrated themselves before deity at the sacred altar. (See Iris J. Stewart, Sacred Woman, Sacred Dance). Cunning, meanwhile, is an ancient layover to the original symbolism of the female sexual orifice; in mediaeval times Christian priests spoke of 'cunt-holes', the caves in the earth where heathens and wise ('cunning') people celebrated their gods, a practice to be later viewed as quaint.
Article copyright 11/12/2006 to Sarah G. Fisher. ]
Full Version: Words & Women
QUOTE(Tas Mania @ Mar 3 2007, 02:30 PM)
[ Here's a note on the etymology of certain words with reference to sacred female obscenities. First, obscene itself stems from the Greek ob ('toward') and scene ('temporary shelter'), denoting the places of women's ritual worship and celebration before such things were found to be inappropriate and even disgusting (as the word 'obscene' is now defined).
Sorry, Tas, but 'ob' isn't a Greek work, so I thought I'd look the definition up myself. According to the Online Etymological Dictionary:
QUOTE
1593, "offensive to the senses, or to taste and refinement," from M.Fr. obscène, from L. obscenus "offensive," especially to modesty, originally "boding ill, inauspicious," perhaps from ob "onto" + cænum "filth." Meaning "offensive to modesty or decency" is attested from 1598. Legally, in U.S., it hinges on "whether to the average person, applying contemporary community standards, the dominant theme of the material taken as a whole appeals to a prurient interest." [Justice William Brennan, "Roth v. United States," June 24, 1957]
Hmm. I hate it when they write 'perhaps' (i.e. we don't know but this is our best guess) so I tried the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary. Nope, that simply told me it was from the Latin via Middle French. Damn, I [i]knew]/i] I shouldn't have let little things like cost and the space for five or six volumes put me off buying the whole OED the last time I saw one in a Hay On Wye bookshop.
QUOTE
Cunning, meanwhile, is an ancient layover to the original symbolism of the female sexual orifice; in mediaeval times Christian priests spoke of 'cunt-holes', the caves in the earth where heathens and wise ('cunning') people celebrated their gods, a practice to be later viewed as quaint.
Er, not true. Someone has decided the two words sound specifically similar that they opught to be related, without bothering to look up the history of either. Unfortunately, this happens a lot in the pagan community, gets bunged ona website and - hey presto - become the truth.
Back to the Online ED:
QUOTE
high civilization." [Havelock Ellis, 1905]
cunning
c.1325, prp. of cunnen "to know" (see can (v.)). Originally meaning "learned;" the sense of "skillfully deceitful" is probably 14c.
cunt
"female intercrural foramen," or, as some 18c. writers refer to it, "the monosyllable," M.E. cunte "female genitalia," akin to O.N. kunta, from P.Gmc. *kunton, of uncertain origin. Some suggest a link with L. cuneus "wedge," others to PIE base *geu- "hollow place," still others to PIE *gwen-, root of queen and Gk. gyne "woman." The form is similar to L. cunnus "female pudenda," which is likewise of disputed origin, perhaps lit. "gash, slit," from PIE *sker- "to cut," or lit. "sheath," from PIE *kut-no-, from base *(s)keu- "to conceal, hide." First known reference in Eng. is said to be c.1230 Oxford or London street name Gropecuntlane, presumably a haunt of prostitutes.
cunning
c.1325, prp. of cunnen "to know" (see can (v.)). Originally meaning "learned;" the sense of "skillfully deceitful" is probably 14c.
cunt
"female intercrural foramen," or, as some 18c. writers refer to it, "the monosyllable," M.E. cunte "female genitalia," akin to O.N. kunta, from P.Gmc. *kunton, of uncertain origin. Some suggest a link with L. cuneus "wedge," others to PIE base *geu- "hollow place," still others to PIE *gwen-, root of queen and Gk. gyne "woman." The form is similar to L. cunnus "female pudenda," which is likewise of disputed origin, perhaps lit. "gash, slit," from PIE *sker- "to cut," or lit. "sheath," from PIE *kut-no-, from base *(s)keu- "to conceal, hide." First known reference in Eng. is said to be c.1230 Oxford or London street name Gropecuntlane, presumably a haunt of prostitutes.
The shorter OED agrees the etymology of 'cunt', ads did an article on the word by a TV programme a few months ago which looked at the etmylogy.
As to 'cunning' the shorter OED relates the etymology back to Old Norse via Middle English. I guess one would have to look at the etymology of the Old Norse words to see if they come from the same root. Perhaps they do, but perhaps they don't. Perhaps in 200 years someone will have a 'net entry on the origina of the word 'cuniculus' as also deriving from 'cunt' as the word relates to burrows and mines, so the symbology is obvious. Just a shame the word is from Latin and not Old Norse, and means a rabbit (which might be, I'd guess, the origin of old country word for rabbit being 'coney'. But I'd prefer to look it up before passing that on as the truth...)
Ach weel, ye live an' learn!
Interesting at any rate - no doubt if I have the time/inclination I'll post this info on to the author - Sarah G. Fisher!
Interesting at any rate - no doubt if I have the time/inclination I'll post this info on to the author - Sarah G. Fisher!
QUOTE(Tas Mania @ Mar 3 2007, 06:28 PM)
no doubt if I have the time/inclination I'll post this info on to the author - Sarah G. Fisher!
By all means do so. Everything I've said is in the public domain as it's from dictionaries.
Thanks.
QUOTE
Everything Moonhunter said
I like you. That was fascinating!
Tas- whereabouts did you find the original article? Is it published or online?
heh.
Too many friend all of whom are hung up on language.
I recall one morning when four of us sat in a Scottish garden with hangovers, discussing a particular famous passage in the old texts where a woman had been invited by one community to engage in seidhwork. there is a complete description of her dress, and even the contents of her bag. One word seemed somewhat puzzling and is often translated as a magical artifact. An hour and four dictionaries (in various languages) and text later we concluded the translations were complete rubbish, and it was the pieces of a game similar in type to chess, rather than anything to do with magic.
So, even with hangovers, one Heathen linguist, one shaman and two other assorted Heathens with severe impairment of faculties can still manage to rub four brain cells together. But then, hangovers are a normal state among Heathens.
Too many friend all of whom are hung up on language.
I recall one morning when four of us sat in a Scottish garden with hangovers, discussing a particular famous passage in the old texts where a woman had been invited by one community to engage in seidhwork. there is a complete description of her dress, and even the contents of her bag. One word seemed somewhat puzzling and is often translated as a magical artifact. An hour and four dictionaries (in various languages) and text later we concluded the translations were complete rubbish, and it was the pieces of a game similar in type to chess, rather than anything to do with magic.
So, even with hangovers, one Heathen linguist, one shaman and two other assorted Heathens with severe impairment of faculties can still manage to rub four brain cells together. But then, hangovers are a normal state among Heathens.
It was on a blog, Sarah Fisher's, about her love affair with the Feminine and belly dancing!
Thought it was too good to let pass!
Thought it was too good to let pass!
QUOTE(Moonhunter @ Mar 4 2007, 06:07 PM)
heh.
Too many friend all of whom are hung up on language.
I recall one morning when four of us sat in a Scottish garden with hangovers, discussing a particular famous passage in the old texts where a woman had been invited by one community to engage in seidhwork. there is a complete description of her dress, and even the contents of her bag. One word seemed somewhat puzzling and is often translated as a magical artifact. An hour and four dictionaries (in various languages) and text later we concluded the translations were complete rubbish, and it was the pieces of a game similar in type to chess, rather than anything to do with magic.
Too many friend all of whom are hung up on language.
I recall one morning when four of us sat in a Scottish garden with hangovers, discussing a particular famous passage in the old texts where a woman had been invited by one community to engage in seidhwork. there is a complete description of her dress, and even the contents of her bag. One word seemed somewhat puzzling and is often translated as a magical artifact. An hour and four dictionaries (in various languages) and text later we concluded the translations were complete rubbish, and it was the pieces of a game similar in type to chess, rather than anything to do with magic.
You were discussing the description of Thorbjorg? What was the bag content that you disagreed with? Just out of interest....
Els
QUOTE(elswyth @ Mar 5 2007, 01:51 PM)
You were discussing the description of Thorbjorg? What was the bag content that you disagreed with? Just out of interest....
yes. OK:
QUOTE
When she arrived in the evening, along with the man who had been sent to escort her, this is how she was attired: she was wearing a blue cloak with straps which was set with stones right down to the hem; she had glass beads about her neck, and on her head a black lambskin hood lined inside with white catskin. She had a staff in her hand, with a knob on it; it was ornamented with brass and set around with stones just below the knob. Round her middle she wore a belt made of touchwood, and on this was a big skin pouch in which she kept those charms she needed for her magic.
the bit about charms needed for magic is more or less one word. The one word means a piece or pieces from a common board game at the time. So either she used tafle pieces for magic or else it's a mis-translation and she kept the pieces in her bag so as to be able to have a quiet game of tafle with someone when it pleased her.
What do you reckon?
personally, I've not encountered tafle pieces used for magic anywhere else in the literature...
QUOTE(Moonhunter @ Mar 5 2007, 07:31 PM)
What do you reckon?
personally, I've not encountered tafle pieces used for magic anywhere else in the literature...
I think she carried the tafle pieces around in case she had chance for a quick game. I've never come across them being used for magic, although I suppose anything's possible. More likely though, it was her equivalent of a travel chess set.
QUOTE(Moonhunter @ Mar 3 2007, 06:05 PM)
Sorry, Tas, but 'ob' isn't a Greek work, so I thought I'd look the definition up myself. According to the Online Etymological Dictionary:
Hmm. I hate it when they write 'perhaps' (i.e. we don't know but this is our best guess) so I tried the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary. Nope, that simply told me it was from the Latin via Middle French. Damn, I [i]knew]/i] I shouldn't have let little things like cost and the space for five or six volumes put me off buying the whole OED the last time I saw one in a Hay On Wye bookshop.
Er, not true. Someone has decided the two words sound specifically similar that they opught to be related, without bothering to look up the history of either. Unfortunately, this happens a lot in the pagan community, gets bunged ona website and - hey presto - become the truth.
Back to the Online ED:
The shorter OED agrees the etymology of 'cunt', ads did an article on the word by a TV programme a few months ago which looked at the etmylogy.
As to 'cunning' the shorter OED relates the etymology back to Old Norse via Middle English. I guess one would have to look at the etymology of the Old Norse words to see if they come from the same root. Perhaps they do, but perhaps they don't. Perhaps in 200 years someone will have a 'net entry on the origina of the word 'cuniculus' as also deriving from 'cunt' as the word relates to burrows and mines, so the symbology is obvious. Just a shame the word is from Latin and not Old Norse, and means a rabbit (which might be, I'd guess, the origin of old country word for rabbit being 'coney'. But I'd prefer to look it up before passing that on as the truth...)
QUOTE
1593, "offensive to the senses, or to taste and refinement," from M.Fr. obscène, from L. obscenus "offensive," especially to modesty, originally "boding ill, inauspicious," perhaps from ob "onto" + cænum "filth." Meaning "offensive to modesty or decency" is attested from 1598. Legally, in U.S., it hinges on "whether to the average person, applying contemporary community standards, the dominant theme of the material taken as a whole appeals to a prurient interest." [Justice William Brennan, "Roth v. United States," June 24, 1957]
Hmm. I hate it when they write 'perhaps' (i.e. we don't know but this is our best guess) so I tried the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary. Nope, that simply told me it was from the Latin via Middle French. Damn, I [i]knew]/i] I shouldn't have let little things like cost and the space for five or six volumes put me off buying the whole OED the last time I saw one in a Hay On Wye bookshop.
QUOTE
Cunning, meanwhile, is an ancient layover to the original symbolism of the female sexual orifice; in mediaeval times Christian priests spoke of 'cunt-holes', the caves in the earth where heathens and wise ('cunning') people celebrated their gods, a practice to be later viewed as quaint.
Er, not true. Someone has decided the two words sound specifically similar that they opught to be related, without bothering to look up the history of either. Unfortunately, this happens a lot in the pagan community, gets bunged ona website and - hey presto - become the truth.
Back to the Online ED:
QUOTE
high civilization." [Havelock Ellis, 1905]
cunning
c.1325, prp. of cunnen "to know" (see can (v.)). Originally meaning "learned;" the sense of "skillfully deceitful" is probably 14c.
cunt
"female intercrural foramen," or, as some 18c. writers refer to it, "the monosyllable," M.E. cunte "female genitalia," akin to O.N. kunta, from P.Gmc. *kunton, of uncertain origin. Some suggest a link with L. cuneus "wedge," others to PIE base *geu- "hollow place," still others to PIE *gwen-, root of queen and Gk. gyne "woman." The form is similar to L. cunnus "female pudenda," which is likewise of disputed origin, perhaps lit. "gash, slit," from PIE *sker- "to cut," or lit. "sheath," from PIE *kut-no-, from base *(s)keu- "to conceal, hide." First known reference in Eng. is said to be c.1230 Oxford or London street name Gropecuntlane, presumably a haunt of prostitutes.
cunning
c.1325, prp. of cunnen "to know" (see can (v.)). Originally meaning "learned;" the sense of "skillfully deceitful" is probably 14c.
cunt
"female intercrural foramen," or, as some 18c. writers refer to it, "the monosyllable," M.E. cunte "female genitalia," akin to O.N. kunta, from P.Gmc. *kunton, of uncertain origin. Some suggest a link with L. cuneus "wedge," others to PIE base *geu- "hollow place," still others to PIE *gwen-, root of queen and Gk. gyne "woman." The form is similar to L. cunnus "female pudenda," which is likewise of disputed origin, perhaps lit. "gash, slit," from PIE *sker- "to cut," or lit. "sheath," from PIE *kut-no-, from base *(s)keu- "to conceal, hide." First known reference in Eng. is said to be c.1230 Oxford or London street name Gropecuntlane, presumably a haunt of prostitutes.
The shorter OED agrees the etymology of 'cunt', ads did an article on the word by a TV programme a few months ago which looked at the etmylogy.
As to 'cunning' the shorter OED relates the etymology back to Old Norse via Middle English. I guess one would have to look at the etymology of the Old Norse words to see if they come from the same root. Perhaps they do, but perhaps they don't. Perhaps in 200 years someone will have a 'net entry on the origina of the word 'cuniculus' as also deriving from 'cunt' as the word relates to burrows and mines, so the symbology is obvious. Just a shame the word is from Latin and not Old Norse, and means a rabbit (which might be, I'd guess, the origin of old country word for rabbit being 'coney'. But I'd prefer to look it up before passing that on as the truth...)
Just shows how easy it is to get mislead by intermediaries!
QUOTE(Moonhunter)
the bit about charms needed for magic is more or less one word. The one word means a piece or pieces from a common board game at the time. So either she used tafle pieces for magic or else it's a mis-translation and she kept the pieces in her bag so as to be able to have a quiet game of tafle with someone when it pleased her.
What do you reckon?
personally, I've not encountered tafle pieces used for magic anywhere else in the literature...
What do you reckon?
personally, I've not encountered tafle pieces used for magic anywhere else in the literature...
Ahhh so it was a tafl piece!! I haven't attempted reading the non-translated versions of anything yet - don't really have the time or resources for it although it's something I'd like to get round to eventually (bit of a linguist although pretty much latin languages only at the mo).
Hmm it is interesting because like you, I'm yet to come across any mention of tafl pieces being used in magic.
However I'd be inclined to think, well my gut feeling would be that maybe the tafl (if meant in the singular sense and if being used for any magic at all) is being used in a folk magic sense. Maybe she'd stolen it from a house where the proper respect had not been given to her and her craft and kept it as a sort of poppet or even just to help her 'link' to them when doing Seidhr on them? Maybe it was a gift or a 'good luck' charm? There are so many possible uses for *anything* within a folk magic context.
That's the thing about the account of Thorbjorg - we just get an observer's view whereas like most magical practitioners I know, she'd probably developed her own 'ways'.
It might just have sentimental value?
If plural then chances are she just liked a good game.
QUOTE(elswyth @ Mar 7 2007, 12:26 PM)
However I'd be inclined to think, well my gut feeling would be that maybe the tafl (if meant in the singular sense and if being used for any magic at all) is being used in a folk magic sense.
I can't recall if the word is singlular or plural.
The other interesting thing is: how did anyone know it was there? Surely only if she used it, but it's not mentioned as part of the seidhwork. I just have a feeling she had a game of tafl with someone the night she stayed.
QUOTE
Maybe she'd stolen it from a house where the proper respect had not been given to her and her craft and kept it as a sort of poppet or even just to help her 'link' to them when doing Seidhr on them? Maybe it was a gift or a 'good luck' charm? There are so many possible uses for *anything* within a folk magic context.
Agreed. Though we're getting the suppositions of the translator here. There's no indication in the text that it was used for anything.
QUOTE(Moonhunter @ Mar 7 2007, 04:03 PM)
I can't recall if the word is singlular or plural.
But but you said in your earlier post
QUOTE
The one word means a piece or pieces from a common board game at the time.
I took your earlier comment as meaning that as a word, it could either be singular or plural depending on context. Hence the reason why I looked at the possibilities of a singular Hnefatafl piece and plural.
Being called Cat in RL and by nature - bloody curious - especially where languages are concerned, I took a mooch over to the Viking answer lady's page to have a look at her article 'Women and Magic in the Sagas:Seidhr and Spa'. She shows the ON text and in it the word given is taufr as opposed to Tafl.
Kveldulf Gundarsson also gives the word as being taufr in his essay 'Spaecraft, Seidhr and Shamanism' which is hosted at the Troth website.
I am interested in how you came to this being a Tafl piece? Arthurs Old Norse dictionary(http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/language/English-Old_Norse.pdf) quite clearly states that taufr=talisman
QUOTE
The other interesting thing is: how did anyone know it was there? Surely only if she used it, but it's not mentioned as part of the seidhwork. I just have a feeling she had a game of tafl with someone the night she stayed.
That's a good question, however reading the translations of both Kveldulf and the Viking Answer Lady, I don't think the observer is referring to the contents of her pouch - merely saying that that's where she kept her taufr.
But when she came in the evening with the man who had been sent to meet her, then she was so readied, that she had a blue mantle fastened with strings, and stones were set all in the flap above; on her neck she had glass beads, a black lambskin hood on her head with white catskin inside; and she had a staff in her hand with a knob on it; it was made with brass and stones were set above in the knob; she had a belt of touch-wood, and on it was a large skin purse, and there she kept safe her talismans which she needed to get knowledge
Another thing that bothers me about the idea of the Thorbjorg sitting down and having a game of Hnefatafl with the farmers is that she was knocking about when worship of the 'white christ' was taking hold. People would have been starting to get suspicious of these women. I can't see many of them sitting down to a game of Hnefatafl with someone that they, yes respected, but maybe perhaps even feared a little. After all, they were starving and worried about the future - which is why they asked her to come (they may not have if they weren't in such dire straits) - they needed to know if their group would survive.
QUOTE
Agreed. Though we're getting the suppositions of the translator here. There's no indication in the text that it was used for anything.
Including a game
One piece is pretty useless after all
[quote=elswyth,Mar 7 2007, 04:43 PM]
I am interested in how you came to this being a Tafl piece? Arthurs Old Norse dictionary(http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/language/English-Old_Norse.pdf) quite clearly states that taufr=talisman
[/quote]
Damn. The Zoega agrees with that. Maybe it was the hangovers, but I don't think it was. Given the person handling the dictionary we were using was trained in Old Norse, I'd have to go back and try to retrace those steps another time when I'm back in the same place.
[quote]
That's a good question, however reading the translations of both Kveldulf and the Viking Answer Lady, I don't think the observer is referring to the contents of her pouch - merely saying that that's where she kept her taufr.
[/quote]
A legitimate supposition, at the least.
Many thanks, Elswyth! Now you've piqued my curiosity. It's something I shall certainly have another go at, when I get the chance.
[/quote]
I am interested in how you came to this being a Tafl piece? Arthurs Old Norse dictionary(http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/language/English-Old_Norse.pdf) quite clearly states that taufr=talisman
[/quote]
Damn. The Zoega agrees with that. Maybe it was the hangovers, but I don't think it was. Given the person handling the dictionary we were using was trained in Old Norse, I'd have to go back and try to retrace those steps another time when I'm back in the same place.
[quote]
That's a good question, however reading the translations of both Kveldulf and the Viking Answer Lady, I don't think the observer is referring to the contents of her pouch - merely saying that that's where she kept her taufr.
[/quote]
A legitimate supposition, at the least.
Many thanks, Elswyth! Now you've piqued my curiosity. It's something I shall certainly have another go at, when I get the chance.
[/quote]
Taufr, hmmm...could it be that German Asutrans missed the big picture somewhere? They have been interpreting taufr as some kind of initiation ritual, using old sacred springs around the country. Almost smacks of baptism, which confuses the hell out of me. Can any of you UK Asutrans clarify this, or does it baffle you too? 
QUOTE(Quasizoid @ Mar 7 2007, 06:12 PM)
Taufr, hmmm...could it be that German Asutrans missed the big picture somewhere? They have been interpreting taufr as some kind of initiation ritual, using old sacred springs around the country. Almost smacks of baptism, which confuses the hell out of me. Can any of you UK Asutrans clarify this, or does it baffle you too?
Hmm. I found this:
QUOTE
Vor dem Kelch liegt ein Taufr, eine Art Talisman. Dieser kann aus Silber oder poliertem Messing sein – auch ein Schmuckstück bzw. ein flacher Metallgegen- stand sein. Auf diesem wären dann passende Runen ( Berkana, Dagaz, Ansuz, Perthro, Laguz oder Othala ) eingeritzt oder eingraviert
...
Er tauchte den Taufr in das Wasser im Kelch und sagte:
„Ich lege dieses Zeichen nieder in den Tiefen von Laguz;
es sinkt hinab und leuchtet dabei auf.
So soll auch dein Leben erstrahlen vor der Welt,
mein geliebtes Kind!“
...
Er tauchte den Taufr in das Wasser im Kelch und sagte:
„Ich lege dieses Zeichen nieder in den Tiefen von Laguz;
es sinkt hinab und leuchtet dabei auf.
So soll auch dein Leben erstrahlen vor der Welt,
mein geliebtes Kind!“
on this site. Now my German was never good, and it's far worse fifteen years on, but I can make out it seems to be referring to runes as taufr, and it seems to be part of some sort of ritual (though perhaps you can read the whole thing and either debunk or confirm that?)
this site seems to equate runes with taufr, and then, of course, you have
{Donner und Blitzen - where's that damned site...? ... ah, there it is} Swain's site on which he discusses the relationship between runes and magic, illustrated by use of one of the books in the Poetic Edda.
Not much, I know, but a start?
QUOTE(Moonhunter @ Mar 7 2007, 05:24 PM)
Damn. The Zoega agrees with that. Maybe it was the hangovers, but I don't think it was. Given the person handling the dictionary we were using was trained in Old Norse, I'd have to go back and try to retrace those steps another time when I'm back in the same place.
Definitely the hangovers!
The amount of translations I've done at uni in various languages with a hangover and it's come out like semi shakespearean twaddle!!! It's the ale trolls - I tell thee!QUOTE
Many thanks, Elswyth! Now you've piqued my curiosity. It's something I shall certainly have another go at, when I get the chance.
Let us know how you get on or if you want someone to blag it out with!! I love languages and discussing translations
QUOTE(elswyth @ Mar 8 2007, 12:47 PM)
Definitely the hangovers! The amount of translations I've done at uni in various languages with a hangover and it's come out like semi shakespearean twaddle!!! It's the ale trolls - I tell thee!
The amount of translations I've done at uni in various languages with a hangover and it's come out like semi shakespearean twaddle!!! It's the ale trolls - I tell thee!Heh, for me it's mead. I hate the sweet stuff - all I can stand is the dry, which is hardly ever available. The usual Moniak etc gives me a headache. Not exactly what a Heathen's supposed to admit to, but give me a decent cognac or single malt anytime in preference!
Actually, that might have been the first time Tiw indicated what brandy he wanted me to buy him. As everyone agreed, it was a good (though not obvious) choice. But what would one expect?
QUOTE
Let us know how you get on or if you want someone to blag it out with!! I love languages and discussing translations
I've a suspicion one of the dictionaries might have been etymological, but I can't swear to it. If I find out I may come back to you. Like you, I love these discussions.
QUOTE(Moonhunter @ Mar 7 2007, 10:36 PM)
QUOTE(Quasizoid @ Mar 7 2007, 06:12 PM)
Taufr, hmmm...could it be that German Asutrans missed the big picture somewhere? They have been interpreting taufr as some kind of initiation ritual, using old sacred springs around the country. Almost smacks of baptism, which confuses the hell out of me. Can any of you UK Asutrans clarify this, or does it baffle you too?
Hmm. I found this:
QUOTE
Vor dem Kelch liegt ein Taufr, eine Art Talisman. Dieser kann aus Silber oder poliertem Messing sein – auch ein Schmuckstück bzw. ein flacher Metallgegen- stand sein. Auf diesem wären dann passende Runen ( Berkana, Dagaz, Ansuz, Perthro, Laguz oder Othala ) eingeritzt oder eingraviert
...
Er tauchte den Taufr in das Wasser im Kelch und sagte:
„Ich lege dieses Zeichen nieder in den Tiefen von Laguz;
es sinkt hinab und leuchtet dabei auf.
So soll auch dein Leben erstrahlen vor der Welt,
mein geliebtes Kind!“
...
Er tauchte den Taufr in das Wasser im Kelch und sagte:
„Ich lege dieses Zeichen nieder in den Tiefen von Laguz;
es sinkt hinab und leuchtet dabei auf.
So soll auch dein Leben erstrahlen vor der Welt,
mein geliebtes Kind!“
on this site. Now my German was never good, and it's far worse fifteen years on, but I can make out it seems to be referring to runes as taufr, and it seems to be part of some sort of ritual (though perhaps you can read the whole thing and either debunk or confirm that?)
this site seems to equate runes with taufr, and then, of course, you have
{Donner und Blitzen - where's that damned site...? ... ah, there it is} Swain's site on which he discusses the relationship between runes and magic, illustrated by use of one of the books in the Poetic Edda.
Not much, I know, but a start?
Ah, okay then it does have to do with water but more as an empowering ritual-regarding water as the substance of magic in all life, whereas the rune is called "taufr" because it is dipped in water to be empowered by it. Now it makes sense to me. Thanks muchly Moonhunter
QUOTE(Quasizoid @ Mar 8 2007, 06:43 PM)
Ah, okay then it does have to do with water but more as an empowering ritual-regarding water as the substance of magic in all life, whereas the rune is called "taufr" because it is dipped in water to be empowered by it. Now it makes sense to me. Thanks muchly Moonhunter
Ah, then it sounds as though the ritual has been influenced by Wicca (water washing clean, though Wicca demands that the water is 'cleansed' with salt)
In the Havamol (a book in the eddas, which Swain quoted in the link I gave), runes seem to be given power by colouring them. Not by dipping them in water. Though, thinking about it, I might construe the possibility of a Heathen associating water with Mimir's Well (the well tended by the wyrds, which is source of knowledge for reasons I'd get bored to write at length), and so might see some sort of means of associating dipping runes in water (the well) as symbolic of doing something. Quite what, I confess I have no idea, but it might mean something to someone.
QUOTE(Moonhunter @ Mar 8 2007, 09:06 PM)
Ah, then it sounds as though the ritual has been influenced by Wicca (water washing clean, though Wicca demands that the water is 'cleansed' with salt)
In the Havamol (a book in the eddas, which Swain quoted in the link I gave), runes seem to be given power by colouring them. Not by dipping them in water. Though, thinking about it, I might construe the possibility of a Heathen associating water with Mimir's Well (the well tended by the wyrds, which is source of knowledge for reasons I'd get bored to write at length), and so might see some sort of means of associating dipping runes in water (the well) as symbolic of doing something. Quite what, I confess I have no idea, but it might mean something to someone.
In the Havamol (a book in the eddas, which Swain quoted in the link I gave), runes seem to be given power by colouring them. Not by dipping them in water. Though, thinking about it, I might construe the possibility of a Heathen associating water with Mimir's Well (the well tended by the wyrds, which is source of knowledge for reasons I'd get bored to write at length), and so might see some sort of means of associating dipping runes in water (the well) as symbolic of doing something. Quite what, I confess I have no idea, but it might mean something to someone.
If you read this verse carefully:
Er tauchte den Taufr in das Wasser im Kelch und sagte:
„Ich lege dieses Zeichen nieder in den Tiefen von Laguz;
es sinkt hinab und leuchtet dabei auf.
So soll auch dein Leben erstrahlen vor der Welt,
mein geliebtes Kind!“
it says:
He submerged the Taufr in the water of the chalice and said:
"I relinquish this symbol to the depths of Laguz;
as it sinks it iridesces
and like this, your life shall have radiance before the world,
my beloved child!"
The emphasis here seems more on water's powers of magnification, rather than purification. The other part of the quote explains the Taufr as a kind of talisman, that can be a piece of jewelry or even a flat piece of metal with the appropriate runes engraved in it- that given the overall optical effect of its reflectivity in water
would almost seem akin to scrying.
QUOTE(Quasizoid @ Mar 8 2007, 09:56 PM)
The emphasis here seems more on water's powers of magnification, rather than purification. The other part of the quote explains the Taufr as a kind of talisman, that can be a piece of jewelry or even a flat piece of metal with the appropriate runes engraved in it- that given the overall optical effect of its reflectivity in water
would almost seem akin to scrying.
would almost seem akin to scrying.
Interesting. I'd wondered what a Kelch was. (I let my ex walk off with our excellent German dictionary years ago and keep forgetting to use the little one I retained). My little dictionary says it can also mean 'cup' or 'goblet'. What is the usual use of the word? I have to say if it's usually reserved for something ornate, like a chalice, or used in churches for their chalices and goblets, rather than for something more mundane, it brings me back to thoughts of Wiccan influence.
OTOH, the influence could easily be [url=http://www.odinic-rite.org/index2.html]
OR[/url] {spit - sorry, don't like visiting their site, even to get the url} influence. They go in for ornate rites at specified dates. That sort of ritualisation and occultism could well derive from OR practices.
QUOTE(Moonhunter @ Mar 9 2007, 11:55 AM)
Interesting. I'd wondered what a Kelch was. (I let my ex walk off with our excellent German dictionary years ago and keep forgetting to use the little one I retained). My little dictionary says it can also mean 'cup' or 'goblet'. What is the usual use of the word? I have to say if it's usually reserved for something ornate, like a chalice, or used in churches for their chalices and goblets, rather than for something more mundane, it brings me back to thoughts of Wiccan influence.
OTOH, the influence could easily be
OR {spit - sorry, don't like visiting their site, even to get the url} influence. They go in for ornate rites at specified dates. That sort of ritualisation and occultism could well derive from OR practices.
OTOH, the influence could easily be
OR {spit - sorry, don't like visiting their site, even to get the url} influence. They go in for ornate rites at specified dates. That sort of ritualisation and occultism could well derive from OR practices.
Kelch- cup, goblet (or in the eccl.) chalice. At least that is what it says in my Langenscheidt German Dictionary.
Being as you appear reasonably familiar with the German language, here is the site I came across in my websearch for "taufr"
http://www.kulturgeister.de/html/taufr.html
In fact they give quite good detail as to the ritual involved. Myself, I would not be so brash to suspect Wicca involvements, as the German mentality simply cannot relate to it as anything other than "one of those typically American new age occult marketing conspiracies with dubious undertones of evangelism" (at least that is what they always tell me). In fact, after driving out Scientology and a host of other fanatics, they don't trust much of anything American. Rather, (and this even despite the Vatican electing a German pope), there are ever more people here leaving the church, to join ranks with the the Dalai Lama. Where heathenism fits between all this, I'm not sure, as I have yet to meet a German that doesn't turn into a surly Teuton after a couple of beers (and believe me the women are worse)!
QUOTE(Quasizoid @ Mar 9 2007, 01:35 PM)
Being as you appear reasonably familiar with the German language, here is the site I came across in my websearch for "taufr"
http://www.kulturgeister.de/html/taufr.html
In fact they give quite good detail as to the ritual involved.
http://www.kulturgeister.de/html/taufr.html
In fact they give quite good detail as to the ritual involved.
Indeed they did. though I wish my German was better! On the whole, I tend to be better with French nowadays, which is not saying much.
But interesting - thank you. That does seem to indicate it may be an indigenous practice.QUOTE
Myself, I would not be so brash to suspect Wicca involvements, as the German mentality simply cannot relate to it as anything other than "one of those typically American new age occult marketing conspiracies with dubious undertones of evangelism"
Heh. That sounds about right. For the Germans, of course.
QUOTE
I have yet to meet a German that doesn't turn into a surly Teuton after a couple of beers (and believe me the women are worse)!
Hmm..I wonder if you're mixing with der recht Menschen...
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