I know paganism used to be shunned and everything, but now with things being more accepted generally I was giving thought to a few ideas..


1) why are people and some organisations secretive about their practices and beliefs?

2) what is the problem with sharing what one does in a ritual or such? whats the big secret?

3) Wouldnt paganism be better if it was more public and "out there" so that Joe Public understood us more?

I can only speak for myself here so don't all jump in and bite my head off!

I don't hide my beliefs from anyone - but neither do I 'preach'. If someone aks me my beleifs, I'll tell them (best I can).
I think we as Pagans are more widely accepted in the public at large ( no more burnings whay-hey!!!), however, I think it's rather a private thing (our rituals that is), each doing our own thing. Mine are different every time as I would imagine lots of folks' are. I mean, can you imagine - the Pagan channel??? Nah - leave that to the evangelists

BB Barnowl

As in any trade, a degree of secrecy is necessary to protect one's interests. There are however, some who incline to exploit secrecy in such a case. To give you an example there was a group that appeared on UKP for a while, brandishing overwrought claims that theirs was the only true path of witchcraft, yet provided no tangible argument to give this any credibility. The bottom line was you had to pay 25 pounds for a course, on the condition you had to be entirely devoted to them and not breathe a single word about it. Indeed it is in such entrapping circumstances that the object of secrecy is very questionable.

Conversely, it is only wise that the success of a spell depends on one's degree of discretion. If we were all to give away our trade secrets, what then would we live from? Who then would have copyright, or the entitlement to patent? Who then would be appreciated for their novel ideas, innovations, or evolutionary breakthroughs?

Some lovely questions there!



There are both psychological and practical purposes for this. Let’s first take a look at the psychology part. Many find that something which is considered a ‘secret’ has more potent significance to them which in turn may lead the beholders of such knowledge to have more meaningful experiences and greater respect for such information. The element of mystery has traditionally been utilised as an ego cropping tool throughout Wicca. Also that which is secret is often considered more personal, hence emphasising the fact that spirituality is a personal matter and not a public one. In terms of practicality then secrecy may be due to reasons of concerns with practioner confidentiality and the fear of the information going in the ‘wrong hands’.


I feel that there is already more than enough public information on paganism these days. At present there are little or no secrets other than ritual designs and names. And really there is no need for such things in my opinion to become publicised as there are already enough examples and guidelines out there and that we should be designing our own rituals anyway to have greatest effect.

I think this is more to do with witchcraft than paganism generally. Outside of witchcraft I can't think of any pagan rituals where there's much secrecy.

Within witchcraft there's not much that hasn't been published. It's popular nowadays for people who, might, in the past, have claimed to be Ceremonial Magicians or Wiccans, now to claim to be hereditory or traditional witches. The big advantage this claim has over the others is that no one knows your 'trad' or family practices except the other members, all of whom are sworn to secrecy as well, so no one's ever going to catch you out a fraud. And, of course, as you're sworn to secrecy, you can't present anyone with all the credentials and documentation that would back up your claims.

IIRC, Professor Ronald Hutton effectively put out a challenge a few years ago (though I can't recall if he put it in writing or not) for anyone claiming their trad went back before the 1950s, to prove it to him. I certainly don't recall ever reading of any such proffs, written by anyone, though I've heard a number of claims.

1) why are people and some organisations secretive about their practices and beliefs?
For myself, I am very open about my paganism, I don't give a toss who knows or what they might think of me for being what I am.

Unfortunately there are a lot of christian employers and company managers out there who will do their best to make life at work difficult, if not impossible for pagan and other none christian employees. Being christian, makes them think that the recent religious discrimination legislation does not really apply to them. So to keep their jobs and feed their families, some pagans have to keep quiet about their beliefs.

There are also certain people, who just love to make a BIG SECRET out of everything they get involved in, including their paganism. I dropped across one of these on this very site a few days ago who said

QUOTE

My own path is Gwyddon, and since it is still very secretive in its practices, I cannot elaborate on that; but it is a hereditary path, passed down through the generations, for how long, I am unable to say.

That person is obviously wanting to make a "big secret mountain out of a small mole hill" as there is very little that is secret about Gwyddon, if one cares to look on the internet. A few centuries ago when if you said you were not christian you would probably have been killed for your beliefs, it was advisable to be a bit secretive for your own safety but that is most definitely not the case today. Even the most 'Fundi' christians cannot set fire to you now and get away with it, no matter how much they would like to, so there is no reason for a load of nonsensical secrecy to be included in our beliefs.

2) what is the problem with sharing what one does in a ritual or such? whats the big secret?
So far as I know and can see, there should be no real problem as such in non-pagans being able to attend rituals, we have nothing to hide (unless its a 'sky clad ritual ) so long as they behave in a respectful manner. The only problem there might be is that people not involved in a particular area of paganism may not be able to understand what is going on. That would be no different to a sikh watching a catholic mass though.

3) Wouldnt paganism be better if it was more public and "out there" so that Joe Public understood us more?
I thought Paganism was already "out there". Hardly a week goes by without there being a pagan moot (often advertised in the local press, and on the internet) in just about every town and city in the UK and invariably they are held in Public Houses where 'Joe public' can frequently see and hear what is going on. There are quite regular major event like The Beltain Bash, Halloween Festival, Witchfest, P.F.Conferences, all around the country and all well advertised in the public media and open to the public. There are Pagan magazines on display on newsagents racks and in other shops. Just how much more can Paganism be "out there" and directly "in the face of Joe public".
About the only thing Pagans DONT DO to get noticed, is to stand around in gangs on the street corners and in shopping malls or go around from door to door, trying to force their beliefs on the public, by using scare tactics like the bloody christians do.

I don't think that anyone's ever come up with proof that would meet the Prof's standards, which would be a bit more demanding than "we have an ancient tradition that goes back hundreds of years, it's secret so we can't tell you about it, but hey, you can do our course for £75". Sorry, I don't intend to offend anybody, but people who claim to have ancient secrets they can only pass on if you pay them make me mad.

Personally, I don't keep anything secret and neither do most of the pagans I know. I don't evangelise, but if anyone asks I'll tell them. If they show genuine interest I'll tell them a lot . My Kindred is pretty open too. We don't advertise, but our our rituals aren't secret and if anyone is really interested (and I mean really, not oooh do you burn wickermen sort of interested) we've been known to invite them along. I think that a lot of the idea of of pagans having "secrets" comes from Wicca, and I wonder how much of that is because Gardiner was originally writing at a time when the witchcraft legislation had just been dropped and it was sensible to be cautious.

Personal experiences are a different matter altogether. There are some things that are between me and my Gods and those I don't talk about.

Frey

[ About the only thing Pagans DONT DO to get noticed, is to stand around in gangs on the street corners and in shopping malls or go around from door to door, trying to force their beliefs on the public, by using scare tactics like the bloody christians do. ]

Bloody good thing too! Just imagine the scenario:

Witch, black clad, with pointy hat and staff with knob on end, knocks on door and asks wjether occupant would be interested in a copy of The Witchtower.

OR...
Gangs of hoodies in ceremonial robes, smoking incense and guzzling mead on street corners!

The scarier ones could gather the faithful on Saturday afternoons in the shopping centres - gas powered cauldrons at the ready for impromptu rituals and/or initiations maybe? Wand weilding optional!

Now I wonder why I expected a reply like that from Tas. am I developing psychic abilities

When it comes to some Native American traditions, they have some very good reasons for secrecy, i.e.:

1) the belief that some person/spirit could steal from the energy being channeled, or altogether defeat, violate, corrupt or interfere with the ritual.

2) There are tossers out there in the world that seek to exploit what little is understood of the Native American cosmology, in ways that are not only an insult to their intelligence, but apt to give them a bad name (much as King Kev does to any dignity of being Pagan).

I could get into more, but feel that pretty well sums up the jist of it.

I tend towards the idea that Pagans should be more open about their beliefs and their practises. BUT..... every spiritual path has elements of mystery, mystery traditions. There are some very good reasons for some aspects of beliefs being 'revealed' to those who have worked towards that revelation. Imagine you just joined a martial arts club and the people running the club put a sword in your hands and told you to go up against someone with the sword. Good idea? It's a poor analogy. But the point is that some things don't become relevant or even manageable until you've had the necessary preparation.

There are lots of good reasons for having elements of Pagan paths kept to those who have worked for them.

BB

Mike

As you say, there are very good reasons for not tempting the inexperienced to think that things like magic and shamanism can be practised immediately and without potentially dangerous side effects, for the practitioner as well as others.

Unfortunately, this is precisely the stuff there is demand to publish and buy - and use. No one is interested in the years of learning it takes to walk in the Otherworld and learn to tell the difference between one spirit and another, or how to get along with gods and which ones to work with (if you're going to involve them in magic or shamanism, as my own religion does), or how.

I have been present at a working that went wrong. There were enough experienced Otherworld walkers around, some of whom had been asked to act as guards, to partially rectify the position immediately and to debrief the next day. We concluded the novice had, in learning so much from books, completely overlooked the need to develop self protection - or else had deemed it unnecessary. I suspect it simply wasn't mentioned in the books on techniques. As a result, something nasty had taken the opportunity.

It happened that, on this occasion, the novice was not harmed. But it took a lot of effort, over months, by a number of experienced people, to begin to heal the damage done the the site, and make it safe for people. And that had to maintained by those people, unseen to others who used the site, so as not to worry parents with children. As far as I know, the novice is still oblivious to having created any problems. I checked him over after the working, while checking over everything (I was one of the people guarding) and, not knowing I'd been asked to guard or being familiar with me, when I asked him how he completely misunderstood me and began to lecture me in how such workings were done, mistaking me for someone who knew nothing who had come to him offer him admiration.

As someone once said: 'to those who know, there is no need to tell; to those who don't, nothing can be told." That's more a state of mind than anything. The main problem, as I see it, is I meet any number of pagans who are tired of the stuff they can get in the bookshops and want something more, something that will help them deepen their spiritual understanding, but it's not out there. Those who know don't write the books - or else the publishers aren't interested in publishing them - and don't run teaching courses. Anyway, how do you teach this stuff? It's like that film about the boy who wants to become a martial arts expert and his master has him scrubbing floors and cars. That was spot on. But no one wants to spend hours in basic meditation for years any more. <grumble grumble...younger generation...grumble grumble>

I agree with the analogies made between martial arts training and using the Arte with care , caution and respect. Also spot on is,

'to those who know, there is no need to tell; to those who don't, nothing can be told."

Although those who don't are often irrittatingly blase to the need for caution - which comes from long hard application, not simply reading some Llewelyn bumf, and thinking "Ooh, look at me - I'm a Witch/Shaman whatever" <-- Tas now growling in sympathy with Moonhunter's sentiments!

Everyone on this thread has made some really good points.

For me, the reason why I don't or rarely let people see what I get up to and share that side of me is because it's very intimate and highly personalised - from years of walking a path. In allowing people a glimpse into your pratices and what happens to you is like allowing them a glimpse into your soul. Anyone I do let in has to have gained a high level of trust and if they betray that then I'd be very upset indeed. It's a huge risk when you let someone in because they may take the piss or gossip about you to all and sundry - and lets face it - as humans we look for approval and belonging from our peers. It would be the greatest betrayal.

As for Paganism being more public - the publicity is already there. Unfortunately it generally comes from prats going on TV dressed in curtains and making generalisations about the whole Pagan community.

'Pagans all worship......'

It's a case of needing the right kind of publicity that won't make Joe Public think 'what a bunch of dickheads!' but 'oh yeah, just normal people with different beliefs'

I think some secrecy in Paganisum is not so much delibarate more a natural reaction to a number of forces that Pagans are or feel thay are under...

This includes a history of persicution... which, while it may not amount to hangings and burnings now, can certianally lead to a lot of unwanted and perjuditial treatment. And even if it is illegal it is more trubble than most people want to attract, pagan or otherwise. The UK may not be the American deep Bible bashing south, but there are pockets of people who are quite willing to mock, hastle and even threaten those who are 'different' / not Christian.

Then there is the history of Pagan paths being a mystery religion... some of the mystery, the magic, is in the secrecy. There is a power in silence which some tap into. Certianally one of the oft quoted points of being a Witch is 'to be silent'.

Add the fact that we are not a prolatizing faith. Many of us just don't feel the need or want to speak up or out, write books or publisize our practices, covens, rituals and beliefs. Most feel it is sufficiant that thier Gods know and prehaps a few close trusted family and friends ... no-one else needs to. We feel no urge to shout from the roof tops. Indeed some are even attracted to this faith because of its privacy.

Prehaps also because this is such an individual faith and so many of our practices are unique, created by an individual for an individual event and the effects are as much felt as physically seen. It is difficalt for many to express in words... even if they want to... and often they feel that thier experiance was only relevant to that one occasion so there is little point in shareing more than the general pattern because any more would be either irrelivant or prehaps even dangerous... simply because it is not something that can be repeated because the individual case will never be the same again.

For myself - I will answer any quetion that comes my way... but I am fairly solo, do not advertise my faith and don't generaly go to any meets etc., know of no really local Pagans, so almost never have to worry others with my beliefs. If I do get to chatting, then I can try to explain, but often I just don't have the words for the finer points of what I do... I would need to take the enquirer on something of a jouney... over many years to prehaps explain / show them what it is that I do and how I do it. It is not something that would go into a book in a meaningful way.

BE bright, be bold
Fillionous

TKTWTDTkS.

As someone who was initiated by Alex Sanders explained to me: "To Know; To Will; To Dare; To keep Silent."