Reading Xalle's reply on another thread reminded me, that for ages I've meant to post a question(s) to all the athiest pagan's.

1) What drew you to paganism?
2) Do you practise magic? If yes how do you explain the process of how it works?
3) Finally, wot no diety? Why do you think there are no gods?

Hope you don't mind me being nosey, and this certianly isn't a 'defend your position oh Godless ones' cos that would be SO rude.

To me paganism, magic and diety are all quite closely interconnected (like a hand, glover ooh bugger I said 3 things so er possibly a muff as well). It wasn't until I got on the UKP boards that I was even aware of the concept of an Athiest pagan, so if you don't mind, I like to know a lil more about your viewpoint.

Q

*grin* Queenie.. ya dont half know how to ask the BIG questions. I'll do me best to answer.. might miss some things and need to come back, but I'll give it a fair whack.


Well.. lets see now.

In brief, my Great Grandmother was a Witch. I felt from a very young age that my "take" on the world was a bit different from most people. I was close to my Great Nanna, and it was her that pointed me in the right direction. She explained to me that there was another side to the world, one that not everyone could see, or touch or feel, she taught me from I was six till I was about 14 and then she died, she left me all her stuff and I've pretty much been on my own and finding my way since then. While I was a little lost... for about a year after she died, I really wasnt sure what I should be doing, and I heard about wicca. Started looking into it and stuff on the internet and realised it was SO not for me, but also found a whole bunch of people out there that think the same way I do, or at least, approach the world from the same place as me. People who have an affinity for nature, the energies in it. Who see what I see. I was drawn to being able to speak with people like myself. And it struck me that in essense.. if nothing else I am a pagan, as a path of life, while I am a witch, I follow a pagan take on the world, its how I live my life.



Yes I do, a fair bit and even if I do say so myself.. Im not too shabby at it. lol

How does it work.. right...

Everything is energy. everything. Even when something is killed.. the energy doesnt cease to be it just transforms. There are LOTS of differnt types of energy out there, and majick is the manipulation of those energies. Im not too sure how much detail I want to go into here... but let me see if I can give you an example. Lets say I wanted someone to stay away from me. I would focus on them and their energies, I would write a spell, either with ink, blood, wax, whatever was needed... (medium depends on energies required) I would use runes (or again something else dependant on what was needed) to bind the intent, runes already having meaning, just need to be imbued with the energy that specifies their intent. Once thats done, I "send it" either by burning, burrying, whatever is most appropriate. If done right, the person you want to keep away from you, either looses interest in calling you, or gets into something else that will take up their time. Its like... the spell, finds the energy it is intended for and either nudges it.. or wraps it and ensures the intent is carried out.

Hmmm I know thats not a very satisfactory explanation, but its the best I can do at the moment! Its all about the energies baby!

[QUOTE]
[QUOTE]3) Finally, wot no diety? Why do you think there are no gods?

lol Why do you think that there are?

Ok.. my reasons for not believing.

1. Why would a god be bothered with us. Lets be honest here... if there is such a thing as a god, do you REALLY think that some diety gives a rats ass about me and my petty problems? I cant see why a god would be bothered about you and who does or doesnt like you, how your job is going, what your family are up to, who dies and who doesnt... IF there is a god that created the universe... "we" are an accident, a by product of whatever it was fiddling with at the time.

2. If a god DID create the earth, it begs the question why. Was it bored? It just doesnt make sense to me that an omnipotent being would think.. "hmmm.. bored... oh.. oh.. I KNOW....!

3. Who made god (yep.. I know .. a kids question, but needs asked anyway.

4. Evidence and the complete lack thereof witnessed by me and other things that make more sense. The big bang.. evolution... etc etc.

5. Questions to consider... if the God/s didnt make the universe, and therefore the world, um... what exactly are they there for? What purpose does a god/s have?

I personally cant get beyond these points.

Hope that helps, if not, please feel free to ask further. I'll do me best!

Good questions Queenie, now lemme see...

1) What drew me to paganism?
Not sure...as far back as I can remember I had a profound sense of cosmology rather than deity, nor could I ever figure out why so many people feel such a need to compensate their lack of understanding the laws of Nature. Perhaps its the fear of their own mortality that gives rise to the futile paradox most ideology seems stuck on. In my observations of nature, I was always of the impression that evolution had to do with overcoming your fears through learning. I guess Paganism is that neutral ground where I can discuss these observations with those of similar experience.

2) Yes, I practice magick, but in more borderline scientific state of the art, yet find this differs very little from shamanical metaphysics or the aspirations of the alchemist of olde. The bottom line is that you don't have to be Einstein to realize where Nature's laws are pretty obvious. In that respect I tend to find most religions self-defeating. I mean what religion actually accepts the true nature of what we are, without trying distinguish us apart from the animal kingdom, let alone matter and energy?

3) Gods? In my books its all spirits assuming material form and upon completing that trial and error, are recycled to return with an added link to the DNA chain, quantum matrix, or whatever. Stars die, resolve to the realm of dark matter and viral clouds where new stars are born and their planets absorb all this material to start a new and slightly different trend from the old? From singularity to hyperdimensionality and back, the possibilities are endless. This is what is meant by the term "continuum". In this respect, every speck of dust has the potential to become "God" if you want to look at it that way.

Now oh great queenie a profound question for you...

What inspired you to say muff?



Cos I know you rather well and I know you dont usually use such wonton language.

temps (who is in no way being mischevious or naughty or anything)

I would'nt say I was aethiest - more a sort of agnostic? I've been drawn to paganism because mainstream beliefs don't cut it with me. Its too organised, puts humans at the top of the tree (which is, in my view, not right - we are part of a world which we couldn't survive without. Sciences doesn't do it for me either because its been unable to answer questions about experiences after death (ie ghosts etc). and I also believe that otherworlds do exist (so okay I am happy with quantum physics, multiple universes etc)

I find it difficult to imagine that all that was created was done by diety or higher power in a human form. I do sense power alot (so I go on my intuition then?), and so far I haven't found a satisfactory name for it. Cosmos and Nature doesn't fit somehow - seems too dead and scientific. This power or energy feels alive, tangible but not physical, its more like the substance that is the spark of life rather than living things. I'll keep on thinking about this one...

As far as magick is concerned. hmm. I'm still deciding on that one. From my own experience the pentacle/pentagram holds alot of protective power but its not in your face willow stuff.

I can't explain really how magick works - 'cos I don't know. Maybe a human being can manipulate energy, but I don't know.


I don't know if there are any gods. I have never knowingly come across one. They may or may not exist. If I did 'meet' one hmm... I dunno. I've never liked worshipping anything. Work with them? - that's okay I guess.

fizzy

I was brought up as a catholic until age 7 and as a congregationalist/URC until 16 (when I qualified as a football referee and had an excuse to do other stuff on a Sunday morning) - I was a confirmed atheist by age 6.

In my late teens and early 20s I had a series of spiritual experiences which changed my view and found that paganism offered me a home I was comfortable with. These ranged from reading certain books (e.g. Gaia hypothesis), listening to certain albums (notably xitintoday by Nik Turner's Sphynx - based on the Egyptian book of the dead), and hearing my grandfather had just died just after eating a mushroom paella!!! My paganism is essentially scientific, revering the cycles of the earth, sun and moon, without any need for personified 'gods' and 'goddesses'. I saw the polarity of the universe and the forces of positive and negative (in an electrical sense) mirrored by male/female aspects of the 'force' for want of a better word, and had a vivid vision of the order of the universe 'as above so below' and my place within it.

I do practice magick occasionally, and it has worked quite spectacularly on occasion. My scientific brain cannot explain why it works, but clearly the force of will operates on a plane of the universe not as yet understood by science. When it has worked it has been when I have acted as a conduit for the forces of the universe acting in concert with what should be, rather than trying to act against the (for want of a better word) cosmic will.

I still do not feel the need for gods and goddesses which are separate from the physical universe, but feel that visualising the forces of nature in an anthropomorphic form can help to concentrate the will as a tool for understanding and/or manipulating the universe. I can live with the concept of gods and goddesses (forces) which form part of the cosmic fabric - if god is everything then everything is god...

I think i'm pretty much in agreement with Fizzy...

Like Boris I too look at religion in a more scientific way... I'm finding myself very drawn to Theosophy at the moment. But I agree that the Universe is most certainly alive in some way... I think Cos got it pretty close to the mark (one of my greatest regrets is that I nver got a chance to talk with him properly). Cosmology has been something thats held my intrest for a while now also.

I've never had any direct experiance with any Gods as yet, but I am perfectly accepting that they may exist... From what I have read and believe to be true, there is no reason why they should not exist... Just not on a level of power that some believe.

As for magic, I certainly believe that the universal spirit can be affected by will, but I am still more in a stage of learning than practicing on that front. I'm trying to explore as many different areas and ideas as I can and see what seems to fit with how I feel the universe works.

Hi there ..

*TD Takes deep breath ... *


"1) What drew you to paganism?"

I have no idea? I've always felt this way as far back as I can remember?
It was only 10 short years ago that I started looking, and found that certain Pagan points of view matched my own


2) Do you practise magic? If yes how do you explain the process of how it works?

Intent and energy manipulation. Intent is the key though.
Whatever changes I want to make .. my spell is going to change/effect me;
and in that, will cause a knock on effect with everything around me. Some things it wont effect hardly at all, and other things It'll have a dramatic effect on.


3) Finally, wot no diety? Why do you think there are no gods?

I'm not sure I would flat out say there are no gods, but I have yet to see evidence of one. I think I'm so used to being against the Christian "god" that, that emotional response kinda spills over to the others? I respect what other people believe and i'm very interested to know why they believe what they do, but I can't and wont make that leap of faith without proof.

I believe in energy and an "unconcious being" I call it mother nature just for ease. I don't believe she is a "god" but I believe that it is a force .. something that keeps tipping the balence back to where it belongs.

We are the only creature on the planet that has moved outside of it's means.
We have dominated the whole globe and are wrecking evereything in sight. Mother nature tips the balence against us - whatever we do she'll counter it eventually.

We pave, weeds grow up through the cracks.
we drive, we poison our own air.
We cure illness, she keeps coming back with new ones that are becomming harder and harder to cure.

It is the force of nature and the natural elements I try to manipulate (though I must admit, I've not done so for a long time now ...)

I hope this answers you questions, from my point of view anyway?

TD.x.

Having always felt faintly ridiculous considering myself to be both a pagan and an atheist, it's good to know that I'm not the only one... So far I think Boris' beliefs are closest to mine.

1) What drew you to paganism?

During my teens I would have said I was agnostic, but after several years in scientific academia during my 20's (including a PhD in biochemistry) and reading widely about all of the sciences, I was left in no doubt that scientific rationalism is the only reasonable way to study the universe. The self-modifying approach of the scientific method is infinitely superior to rigid, unchangeable belief systems written in stone hundreds or thousands of years ago. Ironically if solid, irrefutable evidence for a deity ever appeared then science would be able to incorporate it without "breaking"; compare this to the great difficulties that the Christian churches are having trying to reconcile something as relatively minor as homosexuality with centuries-old homophobic beliefs.

Also being naturally a non-conformist, liberal free-thinker I rebelled against Christianity and dogma generally. Science works by asking questions and testing hypotheses, but most religions work by telling their members what to believe, and enforcing those beliefs. While I have met a few Christians who intelligently think about and question their beliefs, I'm sure the vast majority of believers in all the main religions just accept what they're told to believe in.

Having read about other religions (e.g. Hinduism) and belief systems (e.g. Aboriginal) I couldn't understand, with so many major (and countless minor and historical) religions, how could each one claim to be the one true faith? Is only one of them "true", or a few, or all of them? How can anyone tell if a particular belief system is "true" if there is no real evidence either for or against them? In the end it comes down to either accepting the main religion of the society you were born in (as most people probably do), or consciously choosing one with beliefs that appeal to you personally.

Paganism attracted me for several reasons - most obviously the nature-oriented aspects, the non-dogmatic "find your own path" approach, and the emphasis on the female that is conspicuously absent from most current world religions.

2) Do you practise magic? If yes how do you explain the process of how it works?

I don't believe in or practice magic - it's just not something I'm interested in. However the beauty of paganism for me is that everyone is free, and even encouraged, to develop their own set of beliefs that works for them.

3) Finally, wot no diety? Why do you think there are no gods?

My personal paganism is based around a universal Goddess. I do not believe there is literally a Goddess as an actual independent entity - I see her more as an intellectual/aesthetic symbol, a personification of aspects of the natural world, whether visualised as the whole universe, the Moon, the Earth, the sea, or an individual tree or flower.

Maybe this doesn't make much sense but I'm still finding my path. I would love to be able to fully believe in a real Goddess, but who knows, maybe one day I'll have a moment of epiphany...

I am a pagan athiest.

1) What drew you to paganism?

As with most, I had questions that religion could not answer and found paganism to have some of those answers. I like the way that it isn't a religion, one can choose their own path as there are no "rules" as such, unlike a lot of the organised religions. Their rules are grossly outdated too.
I have always felt an affinity with nature and still fail to understand how people do not see our earth and universe as something to treasure and forever understand better.

2) Do you practise magic? If yes how do you explain the process of how it works?

No not as such but then I'm sure that some would say that positive thinking and doing good an therefore making cause and effect is in a way manipulating energies and events and therefore a magic practice of sorts.

3) Finally, wot no diety? Why do you think there are no gods?

No.
It's such a huge subject that touching on it here would barely be touching the surface but...
Why? Why would a god or gods create us? To test us? To worship him/them? What's the point. The whole sin thing bothers me too. Why create the ability to sin? If one was created to forever be in turmoil about what we want and what we should do to please a god then that's a very egotistical and sadistic creator. Excuse me if I fail to want to worship such a thing.
And don't get me started on if you gossip but don't repent you go to hell but if you're a pedophile and say sorry heaven is for you. Sounds like heaven and hell would be just like here.
Scripture bothers me with it's inconsitencies.
Too much human emotion is connected to god, if he was all knowing he wouldn't be anything like us.
Too many differences and contradictions in differing religions.
Too much discovery in the last few hundred years has laid so much evidence against creation. Evolution, carbon dating etc etc. LOADS of the stuff.
If there was one being or many beings so powerful and so influential there would be no room for error, no possible debate. If they wanted love they could do it, if they wanted followers they could prove to all, if they wanted us to be good people they would have made us that way and so on.
I think a lot of the problem is people imagine a god as a powerful or magical person and that just wouldn't be.
It doesn't make me lost or without morals or ethics to not follow a god. I try to live my life as a good person. I am happy with what I believe to be true and I think that some questions will always be unanswered at least for a very long time, like what happens after death, and that that is ok.
So no, no God but that's just fine

Don't know if this should be a separate post but it touches on the stuff discussed here.
It is a Christian/Athiest debate transcript worth a look I think...

The God Debate

I think the xtian minister gets a little personal and also avoids some of the questions and as for that North Korea comment!!!
Fairplay to the athiest giving a very reasonable response. He's a better man than I because I might have slapped the guy!
Also when the Christian said that god not existing means there is no point to life. Living would be the point. And that if it were true he wouldn't waste another minute being altruistic. How very selfish. If there is no god why am I wasting my time being nice and helping others. oooooh I don't like that at all.
When met with the question from the non believer "how do you account for my altruism" he answered that god put it there! Like his compassion wasn't his choice. Again very rude as far as I'm concerned.

Anyway love to know what you think...

Gosh - so MANY of you out there! Some of whom I've never "met" here before either - fascinating!

Wow.. I mean really.. WOW. I started to read the article yesterday morning and had to print the bloody thing off to read in the car on my way to practice! lol

I think the last comment by Warren summed him up nicely. "Im not prepared to take that chance..." faith or fear? Seems more like fear to me.

I could NOT believe his take on altruisim. Why bother if there isnt a God? He seems to think that the ONLY reason people help others is because there is a god.. and NOT because they are touched by god and feel moved by his compassion to help... noooooo.... its because you gotta get into his good books!

Frightening quite frankly.

I mean in his eyes does that make me a better person than he is? I dont believe in god, not gonna get any rewards in heaven.. so when I give, its purely for the love of fellow man or the need to see right done *shrugs* Certainly for Warren personally it didnt seem to be much about faith and more about "how well can I cover my back".

Odd. Mind you thats always been one of the things about Gods thats bothered me. I would much prefer it if a god said. "do good, coz if ya dont im gonna smite yer ass.. whadda ya mean heaven? Dont be daft... I dont want you lot up here bugging me. Just be good coz being good is the right thing to do!" I wonder how many people would jump onto THAT church bandwagon. Not too many I would guess and thats just it really isnt it? For the vast majority, its about insurance. People are afraid of dying, and if they SAY they believe and if they SAY all the right prayers at the right times and make the right offerings, be they money, beast or fish... then they wont die. They wont have to face the forever darkness. They'll live forever. How DULL.

I once asked someone what they were gonna do once they got to heaven. What were they going to strive for? What was going to make them get up in the morning and say.. yeaay.. another day in eternity... What age is everyone in heaven? Are we all the age we are when we die.. if so.. who in fcuk would want to be a baby or elderly? Better to die in the prime of life no? If "god" delivers final judgement, and the human race is FINALLY eradicated from the earth either by meteor or, some such.. what then? I mean, what do you do all day with your god? Run about telling him what a fine figure of a god he is? Does he prove them all wrong and say "yes.. well see when I was bored enough to make you lot.. I decided to have a go on several planets and over there.. third galaxy to the left.. "judgement day is in 3 weeks! wont that be fun!! lots of new people to meet.."

Utter utter nonsense to me. I dont mean nonsense in the "its gibberish" sense.. I mean it DOES NOT MAKE SENSE!

It DOES make sense when you consider gods to be a way to explain what couldnt be explained maaany moons ago. It does make sense when you view gods as an early form of social conditioning. It does make sense if you consider that there are plenty of people out there who make a LOT of money from their churches and their gods,... "make me rich and i'll have the power trip of telling you how to live your life and its all because you are afraid to die!"

**edited to say** sorry about the slight hysterics! lol

I am curious - do any of the Atheist Pagans here celebrate any festivals?
And if so, on what basis?

I celebrate Yule and Samhain.

One to acknowledge the end of the year the other to acknowledge those gone.

Actually, I'm rather fond of "Groundhog Day" or "Siebenschläfer" as its called in this part of the world. Although that one got all twisted through Christian superstition too, this agrarian weather forecaster is revered by the local farmers with the ritual round of schnapps at the ceremonial big greasy sausage firepit until the crack of dawn. Of course, while the Siebenschläfer makes off with the leftover sausage, everyone's much too drunk to notice.

Well, I'll try to answer these the way I see it then. Seems like a interesting challenge as I, like you, have thought of these questions, but I'm a firm believe in the Gods.
1. The Gods might not be bothered with us, but that doesn't mean they're not there. If we then consider the fact that they might be the ones who created us, then they would be bothered. Just as if we have children, we'll care about them. The argument here though, is the fact that Gods do not exist, but to base that on the fact that "why would they bother?" seems very weird to me.

2. Why the Gods created the world and the universe? Who knows? It's not as if we can ask them can we? Were they bored? Maybe. Or maybe there was a purpose behind creating the world(s)? Someday I suppose we'll find out about the purpose.

3. Ahh, the wonderfulness that is this question, who made God? How in the world is anyone supposed to know that? We can only go back a certain amount in time, and then it's simply known as the "Beforetime", and to me, time didn't even exist before the Gods did, so to me it makes sense that something in the Beforetime created the Gods.

4. Weakest point so far. Big Bang has not been proven, and there is no evidence of it. It's a proven THEORY, but no one really knows how the universe was created. The only reason that a lot of people agree on it is because there are no Gods involved, therefore no chit-chat about what religion is correct and yaddayaddayadda. Evolution on the other hand, has pretty much been proven. But what started it? As you mention in your next question it appears as though everything needs a purpose, then maybe the Gods started evolution, and they know where it's going to end up, for a purpose.

5. Everything doesn't have to have a purpose to exist, does it? If it does, then what is our purpose? How can we answer the Gods purpose without even knowing our own? I'm sure there is a purpose, but what, I don't know.

Please reply to these if you have the possibility, I always enjoy "debating" (in a good way) questions like this.

Eeep! I dont know where to start.

Ok.. I'll TRY and go from point to point... but I get sidetracked sometimes so I apologise in advance! lol

Fist point.

Im not quite sure that you followed my meaning there. You come from the position where you presume that there are gods. Which is fine, except you also presume to know intent. THATS where a lot of problems in religion come from, dogma, the human interpretation of the alleged entities will.

The point I was trying to make was this.

Lets say I decide to make a sandwich and in the making of it, I drop a bit of tomato or a mayo blob hits the floor. If I dont notice it, I dont clean it up. Eventually, life will form on that piece of food, am I responsible for it? Yes. Its my fault its there. Do I care? Thats the difference. You PRESUME your god intentionally made the earth, you presume it cares. You have no evidence of that. We could quite easily be a mistake on the part of a god. Also.. adressing the "why would they bother" aspect.. Why would they? TRY and come upn with a reason. Just go for one... seriously. just think about it. See.. I think theres a tendancy for believers NOT to question this sort of thing, its easier to say.. "god has a plan" because if you start to wonder what that plan may be... you tend to run into explanations that immediately contradict both the benevolence and the omnipotance of self same god.

I think that answered question one and two there.

Before time? So ok.. its different when talking with pagans as many pagans can accept the concept of there being more than one god.. although, I would then ask are they really gods.. but thats for another time... However based on the "one god" concept.. surely to goodness the presence of "before time" and something that could create a god means you are worshiping the wrong being? Or that that the faith is flawed> God can not be omnipotent and made by something else. Simple logic pokes holes in "gods" simeple questions just like "who made the gods" or the old "if a god is omnipotent then he could create something that could destroy even him.. if he can create soemthing that can destroy him, then hes not a god.. is he?"

I dont think that my fouth point is my weakest point at all. Like you say it is a proven theory. Look... as we develop science we develop our understanding of the universe. It wasnt that long ago people thought the world was flat. It wasnt that long ago that we managed to work out the sequence of DNA.. science progresses ALL the time. Good grief, people used to think a commet in the sky was a sign from god. We know that isnt true now. But it worked as an explanation at the time because it was the ONLY way people could understand what went on around them. Doesnt make it right. It only makes it the only understanding we have at the time.

Point 5.

Nope.. thats exactly my point. Everything doesnt have to have a purpose to exist. Well actually it does.. to reproduce. What is our purpose? We dont have one. We are an animal, just like any other. Our purpose is to live. Gods were created by man to fill in the gaps. You say you are sure there is a purpose. You just dont know what. Can I ask as I did previously that you give it some thought? That you see f you can come up with an explanation... a reason.. ANYTHING. It would be interesting to see if you can and if you do.. what. I personally think you'll struggle, because as you do consider the options.. suddenly the gods dont seem so godlike anymore and thats a frightening prospect for any believer.

Oh and cheers for the debate flogger! Its great!

Hmm, gods or not gods, that is the question...
Rather than take up too much space with quoting the shear bulk of these various insights and perspectives, only to lose sight of the forest for all the trees, let's see if I can narrow this down tangibly:

The existence/non-existence of whatever, for all its elaborate accidently on purpose intrinsity/extrinsity in this thing we call continuity, begins with the formless medium of "dark matter" that through the spark of life evolves into whatever form can maintain a dynamic degree of integrity. I am most inclined to regard the Big Bang Theory as a gross exaggeration of things on the grand scale, because, when I apply Nature's fractal dynamics to the whole equation, it's rather like the chicken and the egg. Anyone who has had a good look at it from this aspect, can clearly see just how infinitely intrinsic/extrinsic, thus self-recycling the whole system really is. Just take a good look how dark, like light, extends into such vast branches and spirals- both microcosmic and macrocosmic. Indeed at this point one asks themself where this spark comes from, and given the evidence of the extraordinary paths it has taken to realize itself, what does this say to you? To me it says it is everything and nothing trying to explore/resist all the possibilities/impossibilities. You can interpret it any way you like, Nature is obviously ambivalent.

From this aspect I could give the different manifestations of collective consciousness/unconsciousness any name I want.

Qz, you took the words right outta my mouth. fizzy

In other words... We dont have the words to describe or understand what science is showing us at the moment so if you want to call it a god till we can define it fair enough? Is that right Quas???

I'll just continue on the sandwich track, I kinda liked that. Imagine your created life (by mistake) on your floor. After a while you will realize this life and I for one would be very fascinated by it. Though we evolved over millions of years, the Gods who created us (even if by mistake) would be fascinated by our life. If they then realize we worship them or believe in them...would they not be thrilled and think it was awesome? I for one would think it was awesome to have a bunch of things worshiping me.
Maybe odd to think in these terms, but I thought they went along well with the sandwich.

Let's presume Gods did not create the world. Who did? Big Bang? I don't buy it.
But just because I believe in Gods, that doesn't mean I cannot believe in Big Bang or Evolution does it? The same argument as before with Gods? Who created Big Bang? All matter in the universe came together in one lump and then exploded? Why did it all come together? How? What was it that caused the explosion? In my opinion the Gods could very well have collected all matter and created Big Bang as an efficient way to make planets instead of placing them all out in certain places they figured they could scrabble them out by chance, and, tadaa! Here we are.

As on your thoughts about our purpose, to reproduce? That is a purpose very plane and physical...you really think we have no other purpose? Then why do we keep all these people that cannot reproduce alive? Better to kill 'em all as they are using resources for us "normal" people. Because of our conscience? Then why do we have that? To work as a society? Why have we evolved into a superior being on this planet if there is no other purpose than reproduction? I we only needed to reproduce we could have stayed cavemen and reproduced in the caves and jungles, just like old times.

Cheers on your quick reply and I trust I will soon receive another, hehe...keep it going

I LOVE these debates. lol



They work very well with the sandwich! Um.. no I dont think I would be fascinated. I think I would think... "bugs" and either sweep it up or leave it alone. I dont see the point of worship. Why would anything want to worship me.. its not like I can do anything about how they live their lives or what they believe. See.. Im NOT a god despite what the bug people might think and I think that there is every chance that IF something did make us.. it wasnt a god either. Just a being that maybe made a mistake. However for me that IF is a very big one.



Why does "someone" have to have made it at all? Why does "someone" have to have engineered the big bang? Why who? You use the term "gods" I think thats an oxymoron all by itself, if there's more than one of them they're not gods, because quite simply they cant ALL be all powerful. Im not saying you have to buy the big bang either... Im not entirely sure myself how it all began, but can we for the sake of this debate (even if its just between ourselves) take that as the science behind it.. give us both a point to argue from?

So.. going on from there you ask WHY did it all come together. I dont think there IS a why. I just think sometimes things happen. Im sure theres some science and math behind it.. but I dont think that there has to be a higher purpose. Im happy accepting that sometimes things just happen, there doesnt have to be inteligent design behind it.



I really honestly and truly do not think we have ANY other purpose for being here. We are a cosmic accident. We've evolved quite nicely and are at the top of the scale because of that. Kill others? Why? We dont need to.. it doesnt matter to YOU if they dont reproduce, that just means your genes survive and mine dont.. Im killing myself you dont need to worry about it. The reason we evolved is comfort. We evolved to make life easier for ourselves what else do you need? I would also point out that while we currently are at the top of the evolutionary scale, other animals have been at the top in the past. What was your god doing then? Who was worshiping him then? The biggest dinosaurs had it pretty much made as far as living went, nice planet, no predators... they were also around for a damn site longer than we have been. They didnt worship anything, was that unfulfilling for God the Gods? Did they decide that they needed something that revered them? Pretty petty if they did!

I am going to ask though. What do YOU think our purpose here is? I dont think you mentioned that.

Someone doesn't have to have made it, but something? Some happening? Some strange event? Who has ever said Gods are all powerful? You are looking at God as a Christian perspective, or at the monotheistic world religions perspective, and I can assure you that is not where I stand. I do, and never have believed or said that the Gods are all powerful, they are just like us...but older, way older and they naturally have more power than us, but they are still beings, beings make mistakes and are not omnipotent, as the "God" in the Bible, Koran and Torah.



We have survived because our superior intelligence, and why is it that we have this intelligence? There must be some purpose for why us, simple animals are so much smarter than all other beings on this planet? As for the killing people part. The people who have no purpose in life, the ones who cannot reproduce (according to you) damn well matter to all others (with a purpose). They are walking around on this planet, adding to the energy usage, the pollution of the atmosphere, destroying the world...and they have no purpose either. Why don't we kill 'em so they're not using up peoples (with a purpose) resources? Because they also have a purpose, but I very much doubt that every person has the same purpose. It also depends on how far you want to draw the line on "purpose", the purpose of a teacher is to teach others, and for what purpose? So that they'll get an education and a job, so that they can take care of their loved ones, why? Because then they'll get taken care of to. But was is the purpose of this all?

Why would it be reproduction?

Hmm, the problem I see with that question is the human need for labels rather than perception. Where does "science" end and "mystery" begin? Where does "mystery" end and "science" begin? To me, its all relative, cause and effect, effect and cause. Observe the tree, how it expands into branches. Observe how those branches end in buds. Observe how those buds branch out into leaves to catch the light, to flower out further buds formed in between, to fertilize into seeds. Without perception, labels mean nothing- conversely labels limit what is perceived. Does an animal think, "oh look, there's an apple"? No, and even this in itself makes clear what is missing between the labels of science and mystery. This is where paganism aspires what truly completes the picture of omniscience, namely what has been underestimated by human convention as "instinct". Heh, heh, get the picture?

Im trying to hon Im trying.. Im fiddling with my arial right now to see if I can get a better reception!

Wonderfully written, and a very good point indeed.

Interesting.
Thanks.

You are absolutely right, I am focusing a lot of what I am saying about gods towards the image of the Xtian god, thats a fair comment. But it pushes me to ask, if not a god in that image.. how a "god"? If they are just superior beings, why reverence, why worship? If they are capable of flaw, what makes you think that they have a "plan" for the human race? What makes you think it is something spiritual?

I still havent had anyone manage to give me a good reason for "heaven" or the summerlands or wherever it is that you are supposed to go to. Im not picking on you or anyone one on here when I say that Im just speaking literally in life. What purpose could it serve?



Acutally I would dispute that first comment about superior intelligence. We have evolved to survive by learning to use our brains in a different way. Evolution is all about the successful traits winning and pushing whatever beast uses it in that direction. Sharks are successfull because they have evolved that way. Their body shape is pefect for their environment, their physical atributes saved them from having to think anyfurther than what they were at their most basic level.. a feeding, reproducing machine. The brain didnt need to develop to do any more. Monkeys are different, they evolved to use the physical atributes they have to the best, they have no "physical" protection to save them from predators, they arent particulary fast or agressive.. something had to develop to allow that species to survive, "thinking" was it.

Thats our hook on hanging onto this planet, adapting to our environment. Its still just a complicated way to pass on genes.

If not that what? You tell me. You keep saying there has to be something more. So give me an example of what that something is!

Have I mentioned I LOVE these debates.

Superior beings, why reverence? Well, as you said...superior beings, that's why reverence, and in my case I do not "worship" the Gods, I revere them and respect them as they are superior beings. I believe they have a plan for us all...but that plan can change over time of course, just as my planning of making homework or replying to some thread on some forum

A good reason? It's a hope, something to look forward to, and the fact that only one life ends, and there may be more. If it exists or not I cannot answer, as I have in fact not died yet (can you tell?). I do believe in the fact that whatever one believes happens after death, that is what will happen to you oneself.
Could you tell me how one cannot exist? Or what that is like? Like before being born? How was that like?




Actually, if all we needed to do was to reproduce, that's what we would have evolved to. We do have superior intelligence on this planet. We have evolved just like other beings, but why have we taken the step that have gotten us superiority on this planet? If our purpose was just to reproduce?



Yes, that is true. I keep saying that there is something more. I have no idea what that is though, but I will find out someday. This is nothing I can prove, as it's just that, a belief. A belief cannot be proven with mathematics or other scientific methods.

You keep saying there is nothing more than reproduction? What do you base this on? Why are there then so incredibly many people who cannot reproduce? Or homosexuality?

There is a theory, don't quite know who came up with it but heard about it today in school. Where the purpose for us is to get as much pleasure as possible out of life, which is why it won't matter if one is homosexual or not. Thought it was an interesting idea.

Love these kinda debates as well

Hmmm... interesting.

Ok, Im going to be a rotten sod, and pick holes. I FULLY expect you to do the same!



Um.. to me, personally, I think thats a really bad reason to revere something. If something is to be revered it bloody well better have done something to be worthy of that reverance. I cant believe that someone as smart as you woudl do that. Just accepting that something is smarter than you or more powerful than you and revering it for that. My computer is smarter than me I dont revere it. I dont think it has some sort of plan for me either.. although it could I suppose. But superior does not equal worthy.



OK. Now see this is an argument I hear from believers a lot. "They have a plan for me" what plan? What could they possibly need from you? Im sorry if this seems harsh, but you are an ordinary human being. You will grow up, have kids or not, marry or not, work or not... you might become adept at something, you might even become brilliant at something, but lets be honest here, what could you possibly contribute to a "gods" tool box? I dont mean, helping others in life.. I mean really... if there are all these other superior beings out there. ALL the gods.. I mean there must be hundreds right? You are each off doing deeds , living your lives for their plans? What plans? What use could you possibly be to some being that you say created the universe? And that plan might change? Why? if your god is working on making you a cosmic drill does he suddenly change his mind and thing.. "noooo.. what I REALLY need from this one is a screwdriver!"???



Yeeeaaasssh.. see I think again thats something that most people dont actually give a lot of thought to. You admit yourse its a hope. Something to look forward to? Really? I know you cant tell me if it exists or not. But you could tell me what you expect? What are you going to do for eternity? Run through fields killing rabbits dancing in the moonlight? Forever? And how does this work into the "grand plan"? How can your god be grooming you for something if you are going to spend forever faffing about in meadows in the summerlands? I would need something more definate than that. I remember having this discussion with a Jehova's Witness. Who told me the lamb and the lion and yaddah yaddah. SO I asked him what he was going to do in theis utopian heaven on earth. He told me he was going to build his home and grow food and live in peace without suffering with those he loved. I dont see it myself. Every morning, you get up and you do the same things over and over and over again. At least in this life you get to die to get out of the monotony. Humans STRIVE its what we do, we fight and think and grow and push and deal with life. Thats what we DO. If there is nothing to fight for.. whats the point?



I think there is probably some truth in that and I have to say Im so sorry that you have chosen to spend your eternity as a tool for a god or in a glorified holiday camp.



You cant prove a negative. adn I dont quite understand what you are asking me in the underlined bit!



No you cant. Very handy that for believers. You cant acutally prove anything when it comes to gods. I can hold up science, or evolution and say "see". Where there are holes in the science thats when the gods creep in. Because we havent found the missing link in genetics... naturally THATS where god got involved... We're getting closer to understanding what started the universe... but where theres holes theres god... HE did it.. SHE did it... THEY did it. In the same way the gods caused tonadoes, and floods, and plagues... oh no wait they didnt. We worked THAT one out didnt we.. but thats ok! Because there is plenty out there we havent managed to get our heads around yet. God can still be used as an excuse for a while yet.



I dont actually think that is relevant. There are billions of us on the planet, we're a pretty complex bundle of stuff. I have red hair, that is due to a faulty gene. Being gay or unable to have children isnt really any different. Its just life. Same as albinos, or dwarves, or anything really. Mistakes will happen.

And before someone goes jumping up and down about me saying that gay people are genetic mistakes.. we're talking about the homosapians point to being on the planet nothing more. I am not discussing life choices here ok?



I would certainly agree with that. At least, I think thats what life has become and only in the recent past. I wouldnt have said that for the majority of people living prior to 1900 "enjoyment" would have been their main aim. Living, surviving, working, feeding...

**edited to say**

Sorry I really want to push you on this "plan thing" How do you live your life thinking someone else has it planned out for you? How do you know that you will even want to do what your god has planned for you? What if you dont want to do it? Does your god have a different plan for every single worshiper of his or is it just one BIG plan with everyone involved? Do ALL the gods have the same plan or do they have rival plans? Is there going to be a god war? What about the forgotten gods? The ones people just dont worship anymore? DO they not get to do their plan? Are their worshipers now in limbo because their god wasnt able to get someone to be the final cog in his cosmic plan? Or are all the gods working towards one BIG plan and they all have certain bits of it to get? In that case, is there a god in charge of the big plan and should you not be worshiping him?

I both think and talk WAY too much.

QUOTE

I both think and talk WAY too much.

Ooh and don't ever stop!
This is fantastic and I fully intend to stick me oar in as soon as I get more than 5 minutes away from my 1 year old.

Xalle so much of what you say rings true to me also. Apart from hoosexuals being a mistake
I agree wholeheartedly on the plan/heaven/science points.
It's good to see a debate without people getting all personal too. I just came from one of those and people got all nasty focusing on each other and not the POINT.
Keep it up!

Oh I don't revere the Gods because they are smarter than me, but because they are superior beings. They are the ones who (according to me) created the all, caused the beginning and they have planned how things will go, but naturally they don't know how things will go. Just as if you plan something, you don't know how it's going to turn out, but you plan it anyways the best way possible. If you want to believe in Big Bang, fine...but once again there are no evidences for that THEORY. The only reason it's being regarded as an okay solution is because now all the religious people can say "well, my god caused the big bang" so nothing really changes. We know nothing of hot it all started, but this gives Atheists and Scientists an explanation as well.

So really, it's the perfect way for everyone to agree on something that no one knows anything about (this got really weird and I'm currently confusing myself).




Ahhh, now you PRESUME that I will live one life forever after death, doing the same thing over and over for all eternity (in the words of eric cartman: lame!)
But let's presume you are reborn perhaps? Or maybe you land in another world/plane? Ever read a book called Bröderna Lejonhjärta (brothers lionheart?) by a famous Swedish author called Astrid Lindgren? When people die there they come to another world, in the age that they were when they died, and continue to live there. After they die there, they move on to another world, again! This would also cause a complex if one dies at 95 from natural death, then moves on to another world, will one die immediately? Interesting what happens after death, who knows? But something does happen.



Wonderful! "You cannot prove a negative". I think I'll use that argument myself...right now!
So, I presume you believe nothing happens after death? But how can "nothing" really happen? Can it? You might say that your body disintegrates and your brain dies along with your thoughts. Which is when I will say; Your thoughts die hey? What happens to them after their death? You will say; Nothing, and I will say once again; How can nothing even happen?

If you want to know the truth I just though I was a genius when I came up with this. If you reply and kill all my arguments by morning, I'll blame it on that I was tired.

*grin*



Weeell... there is some evidence. But you gotta admit, science makes more sense than "some being came along and did it, but we dont know why, and there might be more than one, and we think there might be more to it but we dont know because it wont reveal its plan to us..."



I didnt say that I thought nothing happened after death. I said I didnt believe in gods. I believe that we are energy and I KNOW that energy doesnt die, it just transforms.

So... lets go with the idea that we both have some belief in reincarnation.

Now Im going to go snapping back to this plan again. MY form of reincarnation is purely to do with energy.. there being a finite amount and it needing to be reused again and again, much in the same way we all use the same water over and over again. All the water we will ever have is already on the planet today its a glass of water later its pee in my loo.. tomorrow its in the sea... later its sucked up into the clouds and pretty soon we're drinking it again. Nothing godlike about that, it is the natural recycling of energy.

What form does your reincarnation take, and how do you see it working in with a gods plan? I have to say.. I think your avoiding the issue, I also think I know why.

please.. please tell me what you think your god has in his plan for you? Even if you dont know.. hazzard a guess, give me a wild imagining (is that a word?) on what you think a gods plan may be? Could you also try and address the other questions I asked about other gods? I know Im being a complete bitch, but I would love to hear from a believer what you think about those points. Those are the bugbears we have as athiests. Those are the flaws we see in gods and think to ourselves.. "that just doesnt make sense" (well its some of them at least...) I have never had an answer to ANY of those questions about gods plan ever.. from anyone of any faith.

You wanna know why? (remember I said earlier I thought you were avoiding the issue and I thought I knew why?)

The reason is that you (speaking about believers here) cant give me an answer. The reason you cant is because if you were to really consider the matter you would KNOW it doesnt make sense, and suddenly.. god isnt there anymore and that terrifies people.



That is still a TERRIBLE reason to revere something. To put your life unquestioningly into its hands. Its superior. No.. sorry... I would never elevate something to godlike status in my life unless it deserved it. And frankly, being "superior" doesnt deserve it.

Good sparing with ya!

Oh and hurry up Foxy! lol

Dear Xalle,



They're good and perfectly sound reasons. I don't agree with them but that's a personal thing.



Because everything that exists connects to, and interacts with, everything else that exists, even if that connection and interaction is almost infinitesmally tenuous. Personally, I don't assume that the Gods and Goddesses are much bothered with us. Perhaps we believers tend to overly anthropomorphise deities when we speak of them, simply because being human, there's a kind of innate tendency to perceive deities as superior versions of human beings. Personally, while I believe in deities I do not think they are beings in the same way as human beings are beings, or even in ways that are closely analogous to that. They have existance and discrete identities but I see the image we have of a deity as being a kind of mask, a kind of interface, which allows us to experience the presence of something whose nature is much too different from our own to experience directly. I believe that they are something woven into the fabric of reality, existing both within us and external to us. I believe the deities are Mystery, something that cannot be understood by humans except through a rather imprecise process of mythopoesis. "A god who can be understood is no god."

I don't believe that believers get any special favours from the deities. It can sometimes seem like a transactional relationship - we give so that they will give - but I think it's rather less direct than that. I think it's more a case that we 'give' by acting rightly according to the nature of the deity (which is part of the nature of the cosmos), which in turn means things sometimes go better, though not necessarily for us. Personally, the main benefit I find to believing in deities is knowing the experience of their existance - and I'm quite prepared to believe that you, Xalle, get something similar from not believing in them.




I don't believe that deities made the earth. I do believe they are part of the process by which the earth came to be created, and the continuing process of creation, renewal and destruction by which it is sustained.



I don't believe some kind of uber-deity made the Gods & Goddesses. I don't believe there necessarily ever was a First Cause because I don't believe time started at a point and flows linearly towards an end.



I don't see a contradiction between believing in the big bang, evolution, etc on the basis of scientific evidence, and believing in deities on the basis of personal experience.



The same purpose that we and everything else has, to be what we are and do what we do. If you'll forgive me saying so, Xalle, by taking purpose as a test here, you're switching to a religious viewpoint in which the universe is created by intent and exists to fulfill a purpose. I take a rather different religious viewpoint: That it exists because it exists and is making up its own purposes as it goes along.



If we didn't disagree, then we wouldn't have to think. And thinking serves a useful purpose whether or not you believe in deities .

BB,

John Macintyre

See its with comments like this that I get confused. The bit that I've underlined... About the universe being just because it is. I have NO problems with that. In fact I would say that isnt a religious standpoint at all.

If your deities are not gods, but the inherant energies that are tied into the universe, the why use the term god or deity? Do you beleive that they are sentient, conscious of whats around them? (within their realm of understanding) If so and you beleive that they arent really aware of us, why exactly do you worship them then?



Im sorry hon you'll have to clarify this point for me. "According to the nature of the deity" what does that mean? Beings that exist, that require certain.. energies to fuel them need people to worship them to give them that fuel? It seems... parasitic both for the worshiper and the god.

We have beasties living in us.. on us.. all you need to do is pull out an eyelash and stick it under a microscope. I am their universe. But I didnt make their world. I know they are there because someone told me in GCSE Biology, but other than that I could have quite happily have lived my life and never known they are there. I cant affect their life. They MIGHT be aware of me.. they may worship me.. pretty bloody pointless tho.

Do you see what Im saying? Im not saying that there is nothing out there, there may well be, in the same way there is probably life on other planets... but its JUST a being, I wouldnt elevate it to the status of god or deity, I certainly wouldnt worship or revere it and while it may be aware of me in the same way I am aware that there are micro-organisims we dont have a relationsip.

I think there are two sides to the whole worship thing. You may have noticed I have an abhorrance of people using gods as a way to "fill in the gaps" or "be an emotional crutch". I dont agree with worshiping things. If the xtian god appeared tomorrow and PROVED his existance. I STILL wouldnt worship him because I dont think he has done anything worthy of worship, I dont think ANY god has. Do you? Ergo... probably not a god. That to me is one side.. the one most athiests argue with.

However mankinds ego is another side. Man for some reason seems to think that its worthy of having been created by a god. People think because we have cognative abilities that means we're better? We are superior to animals. Utter crap. what makes you think that any being out there rates you any more than you rate bugs?

What was the line used in Dr Who? Humans are "fleshy bags of water". Nothing more.

Parasites "know" that they need to do things a certain way to keep the host feeding them but they arn't necessarily aware that that is what they are doing and they have no concept of "what" the host is - the nature of it - perhaps not even the form of it. They do know however that if they do things in a certain way that their universe will react accordingly - they will be provided for (or not). If they were to try to visuallise a concept of the force that does this providing they may well imagine it to be a big version of themselves...

I've been following this thread with interest because I'm not really decided what i think about all this...

Good point well made Tilia.

In the same way if we do things right, plants will grow and animals will breed and we survive. But that doesnt make the world or the universe a god.. just another thing. In my mind at any rate.

Indeed I've noticed that particularly of soul or spirit entities. It would seem that they only react our emotional states regardless of what our reason or intent. I suspect this has alot to do with the fact that our biochemical reactions give off more energy than just neural impulses alone. Certainly biochemical reactions have more of an environmental impact, that would provide them a more tangible "channel of physical reality". This is also why I'm apt to assume such entities are manifestions of alter-temporality. This means that although we may occupy the same space as these things, they are in a state of altered time. Thus their lack of actual form in reality as we know it, is because they are only visible to ours at quasi-periodic intervals of our own time flow. Indeed it is only those of us acutely sensitive to such anomalies in the flow, that are able to subliminally assemble them into a tangible picture.

What I am saying here may be difficult for some of you to understand, but unless you have observed and experienced these things yourself, there is little more I can explain to your satisfaction or dispute.

Xalle, it seems it's just the term "God(s)" that you disagree with? As you said yourself, you believe in energies and that energy is being reused. My view is that since the beginning there has always been two energies/forces, opposite to work together in perfect harmony. These two large forces/energies are just like all other energy, but obviously larger as their the energy of all instead of just the energy of a person on earth. These two forces is what I refer to as "Gods", why? Because it's a lot easier to say Gods than to say "The two opposite energies that are part of everything in the universe". When i say "Gods", most people know what I'm talking about, something which has immense power, or maybe more IS immense power.
Then if I believe these two forces, that cannot be viewed in any way, cause how does energy/force really look? Can be viewed as opposites of anything, as we are humans it makes sense for me to see them as a man and a woman, a male and female force, opposite but made to act in perfect harmony with each other.
So am I correct to think that the word "God(s)" seems to be the issue? As you believe in energies, and I believe in energies...what is the difference? That I use the word "Gods" and do not call myself an atheist because of that?

Im happy to accept that somewhere in the universe there are superior beings to us. I am also of the belief that every being is made up of energy. However I dont see the two things as the same thing.

Also, I dont think it made me or my world. I dont think I owe it anything. I dont believe it has a plan for me, I dont think that it expects me to live my life by its rules. I dont revere it, I dont worship it.

YOU use the term god. If you are telling me now that its not really a god, that you just use that term because it best describes what you believe the energy IS then I think you need to check the definition of "god". You also might want to double check the definition of athiest.. just in case you are one! lol

Quas... believe it or not. THAT actually made sense to me I think. What you are saying is that you believe that there are alternate times to ours. Kinda like if someone was to get two bits of cardboard and punch a hole in each one... randomly rotating the cards every now and then both holes will line up and you can see through.. but its rare and you have to be looking at the right time AND know that the holes are there to look for in the first place?

If this is a terrible metaphore and ive gotten it totally wrong tell me!

Dear Xalle,

I rambled:



You replied:



I believe in deities but I do not believe the universe was created by deities because I do not believe it was created by a First Cause. I'm inclined to believe it exists eternally through unending cycles of creation and destruction. I believe deities exist within it, part of the fabric of it, within fate/wyrd/providence/chance or whatever you want to call it. I do not believe the Gods & Goddesses have a purpose for the universe, I believe they are part of the purpose(s) that the universe develops as it goes along. I would say this is very much a religious standpoint, dear Xalle. Perhaps it is merely a religious standpoint that you have no problem with?



Because that is what they are. In a sense they are the inherent energies that are tied into the universe, but they are also something rather more than that.



Dear Xalle, please do not think me discourteous if I don't answer these questions. I've a great deal of respect for you, it's just that I don't know what the answers are. I don't believe in the Gods and Goddesses because someone persuaded me with an argument, or even because I devised one myself. I believe in them because they have been part of the way I experience the world at a few, rare, 'peak' times in my life, and the memory of that is sufficient for me to keep faith with it for the rest of the time. I worship them simply because that is the response they inspire in me. It feels something like the way beauty inspires aesthetic appreciation, or danger inspires fear, or a beloved inspires desire. It's a response that is there before you start analysing it, and is still there after analysis has given up! I realise it may make little sense in terms of rationality but it does make sense within an approach informed by the old mythologies. Please note I'm saying 'informed by' there - I don't view myths in the way fundamentalists in other faiths view their scriptures. I don't think any of this can really be explained: "A god who can be understood is no god."

I worship the Gods & Goddesses I worship because I find in that relationship something which inspires and sustains me in my life, and which helps me understand - at a level that's more in bone and nerve and flesh than mind - how my life and death fits into the world. I worship because I feel a very deep sense of gratitude to be alive within this world. Through worship, I feel I am doing what I am for. It's enough for me.



No, not exactly. I think that deities and mortals are interrelated but I've no idea whether they are interdependent. Reciprocal parasitism is a contradiction in terms. It's in the nature of a parasite that its host does not benefit and is often harmed. This seems more a form of symbiosis. Or rather, a form of relationship that symbiosis is a suitable analogy for.



OK, but when you consider how astonishing, amazing and complex any being is, how is it JUST a being? Isn't any being - even a centipede or a Tory - something rather awesome in itself? I do not believe I'm elevating anything to the status of a deity, but merely responding to how I understand things to be. Perhaps our differing life experiences have led us to attach differing emotional reactions to words like 'worship' and 'revere'.



Yes, I had noticed that . I don't think the Gods stand outside the universe pulling strings. I think they are woven into the fabric of the universe, doing what they do according to their nature as we do according to ours. In a sense, I see worship as a kind of extension of courtesy, albeit with rather unique nuances. All kinds of people, and other beings, help us along in the course of our lives, from the surgeon who saves your life, through the scaffie who empties your bins, to the pigeon that ends up on your plate. Not to mention the ancestors before you who shaped the world you live in and the unborn after you you're hoping not to have messed things up too much for. These things would be there anyway whether we noticed them, or appreciated them, or not, but it just feels right to acknowledge, and give thanks, when we do notice. OK, this is not an exact analogy for religious devotion but as far as my understanding goes, it's not a million miles away either.

'God of the Gaps'? Nope! Never understood that particular Christian approach. It seems just a rearguard action against science, shrinking religion into an ever diminishing space. Personally, the more I learn through science about the astonishing complexity and interdependence of life in this world, the more sacred this living world appears to be, and the more worthy of reverence and worship the Gods and Goddesses consequently appear to be. I don't expect you to share that view but can you see why it makes sense to me?

"An emotional crutch"? Perhaps that's true in a sense. In addition to prayers of gratitude, I find that when something more than usually challenging befalls me and mine then I pray. Not because I expect some divine hand to descend from the clouds and swat my troubles away but simply because I've found i) it means I'll pile into whatever needs doing more effectively than if I don't, and ii) it gives a sense of perspective, reminding me that I'm just a tiny part of a vast and very complicated universe in which all sorts of stuff is happening to all sorts of things and that's just how it goes. Oddly, instead of inspiring fatalism, this seems to make me try harder.

This doesn't feel like calling into the void of an empty and uncaring universe. There is a sense of being/beings/processes of being responding. A sense of presence, of identities, of interaction. A state that words turn back from, hence the gibberish I'm spouting above. And there are many other forms of epiphany, for of course epiphanies are happening all the time and all over the place in this living earth, not something that happened as a one-off in Palestine two millenia back.

If this is an emotional crutch, I'll happily wave it at you. I respect your point of view. I'm not suggesting atheism isn't the right path for you, merely trying to explain why I'm not an atheist.



I don't, and don't know how you might have gained the impression I did. The life in us is the same as the life in all other living beings. We are not 'special' to the universe, merely to each other - and not always then. We are part of this living world. It is not a preparatory ordeal for some other life elsewhere. I believe the Gods and Goddesses were, and are, part of the process of creation and destruction by which everything came to be, bugs and humans included. I'm not clear how the statements you're making above tie into the religion versus atheism debate? I hope you don't think that because I'm religious I hold other living beings in contempt? Even though rather a lot of religious people seem to think that way, that's not religion but mean-spirited stupidity. And if that's not impious then I don't know what is.

BB,

John Macintyre (who rates bugs quite highly actually)

John, thank you, that's EXACTLY how I feel about it all and you save me a lot of thinking about how to express it

I've been reading this topic with great interest.
I am a member of an online support group and the religion discussion has recently been brought up there.
Although it started as an athiests point of view it quickly escalated to a How is god real or not. Obviously I'm referring to a Xtian god as there are some bible belt american xtians in the group.
So this discussion is proving to be very insightful because it brings a polytheistic view into the discussion also.

I will say from the start (I've learned from experience) that nothing I say is meant to be a personal dig to anyone. These are just my thoughts on the subject.

I've gotta say Xalle that a lot of what you have said here echos what I said elsewhere and time again I got an avoidance of my questions which pretty much boiled down to the fact that people just didn't want to hear anything that challenged their faith. It was far too frightening.
So inbetween the "blasmphemous!" comments I got things like "how sad for you" and "life would be awful without god" etc etc. It seems that for a great nuber of people religion is a crutch. And although I certainly wouldn't presume everyone is I think that a vast majority of people that haven't challenged themselves (never mind hear it from others) do it so as to continue to have someone to ask for help, someone to blame and also someone that is an excuse for all good and bad in the world.

I do not buy the whole plan thing. I just can't. It doesn't sit right in my mind.
I had a conversation with someone that believes that all that is brought to them happens through their own thinking.
A religion of sorts (Anyone heard of the secret?)
Think absolutely positively (with no slipping mind!) and good things would happen.
When I asked her then the same must be of the opposite she agreed. That if you think negatively (which we ALL do at some point) then bad would happen. She avoided questions about the subconscious mind which we have very little control over and yet it has so much influence on us.
She was telling us all this just after a woman had lost a baby to a rare disorder (not genetic) at 20 weeks of pregnancy.
Ergo that woman was to blame for losing her child that lived for only 20 minutes.
I confronted her on this (I have this knack of not being able to keep my mouth shut sadly) and when other people got on board they came up with the plan for everything.

Now I'm not that woman so I could even say that I'm more unbiased than she would be but damn me if I can find any reason or plan for what happened to her except of course for some sick or twisted purpose.

Lets cause suffering for x or y reason when an all mighty being could make it impossible for such things to happen if it so chose. In which case why?

I remember paedophilia coming up. (Connected to the heaven/hell argument. Apparently they go to heaven too. How nice.) I suggested that infants not developong sexual organs until of an appropriate age to mate. I mean it could be done if it were a creator designing right?

If we were created to adore, worship, fear something would that be for an egotistical reason? Because I mean he/it/they could of created us without so much suffering and war if that's all he/it/they wanted.
And why not make it clear of who they are. I mean they could have made it so that there was no room for question or debate. Which would mean we'd have to find something else to war about.

I understand that a lot of this refers to a xtian god. I haven't even touched on the heaven/hell or scripture points of which parts are so outdated and holey (not holy lol) that it's almost laughable. Sorry but I honestly find myself shaking my head sometimes at how so many people seem to hold on to such beliefs in this day and age.

I really am liking the other points of view here.
The gods being around but just part of the world. More like higher beings than gods really. I mean I always assumed gods were creators.
I think science has so many answers for us and we're only really at the beginning of the scientific age.

I have a strong suspicion that people in decades to come will look back on these posts and laugh about what we're debating. Just as we look back and laugh about people debating the earth was once flat.

My own beliefs are this.
I believe so far in my life that we are organic beings just like animals. Yes we have more complex language and social skills than others and have, with those, taken over the world! (Ooh slight pinky and brain lapse there sorry ) But ultimately we are still just animals. Energy whizzing round organic material.
I believe (what has been proven by science) that my particles and energy do not disappear, travel elsewhere or stick around as a ghost. I believe I go into the earth and become all sorts of other things. Soil, bug food, air, heat, light, any organic material.
Where that might be sad or empty to some I find it wonderful. I mean one day a part of me could be the breeze in my grandchilds hair or some water passing through a new species of animal.
(As a thought are new species new creation