hi there i see some peeps av a problem with wicca on this site it is a form of paganism it is no better or no worse than any outher form of paganism i get a feeling some peeps think there way is more paganistic than wicca not all wicca is {the fluffie what ever that means} type iam 45 year old male and this path works for me i work with all types ov pagans and i do not belittle there ways

bb
[ BIG BOB ]

Mod hat on: Moving this to General Paganism

Okay, Mod hat off and speaking as a member now

Pretty sweeping statement there Big Bob

We have a few Wiccans on the site and a few non-initiated wiccans too. I don't have any issue at all with Wicca as a path - I do however get a bit hacked off when it's assumed that Wicca = Pagan. But Wicca does tend to be the first port of call for new pagans, and it's a fluffy, homogenised version of Wicca which is out there on the bookshelves, so it's THAT that's derided really, not Wicca per se.

Is my view.

What Pomona says, plus my tuppence worth, for what it's worth is this, "Each to their own Path"

Hi Mightoak,

I would agree with most of what's already been said - each to their own!

I wouldn't say that most folk on this site have a problem with Wicca - it's just not a singularly Wiccan site
We're mostly all free minded, outspoken Pagan types, hence, at times, our opinions are gonna clash! That's what keeps it real and interesting ( for me anyway).
I don't think anybody here would intentionally cause offence or belittle your beliefs.

Anyway, nice to hear from you,

Enjoy the Valley

Barnowl

I would agree with this, have a look and see.

http://wiccans.faithweb.com/llewellyn.html

In Frith.

wolverine.

Hi Big Bob
In all honesty, I dont believe it is wicca as such, that most people have a problem with. What gets right up most peoples noses, is the idiots that are allowed seemingly with impunity, to attach themselves to wicca and attempt to speak for that branch of paganism.

You will know and be aware of the types I am refering to, just as well as the other members of this site are. Those circa 12 to 18 year old, love and light, I am an angel, cuddle a dolphin, chief wiccan high priestess of the grand order of Unicorn lovers, who can trace her ancestry as an hereditary wiccan right back to 1600 or even earlier. They are the ones who most pagans of all branches have the problem with.

Such silly children (and unfortunately some adult followers of wicca) who bring the belief into disrepute should get stamped on very hard by genuine and serious wiccans. In exactly the same way that stupid, fundamentalist christians and muslims who bring their faith into disrepute should be stamped on by the leaders and genuine believers in their faiths. It should not be left to others to clean up the mess.

As Barnowl saysSo there will be differences of opinion and at times some very heated debate, about many things here, but as pagans and presumeably reasonably intelligent human beings, we should not take offence at what may be said.

There seems to be a problem with the link.

Its workin for me Pasher ? Try again

http://wiccans.faithweb.com/llewellyn.html

And on the subject have a larrf at this too

http://sanfords.net/Pagan_Humor_and_Though..._Mouthful.shtml

Thanks Wolverine, There must have been a glitch with the web site or my connection.

That is a very interesting comment on Llewellyn, though nothing really new. For many years serious pagans have considered Llewellyn Publishers to be nothing better than the MILLS AND BOONE of the pagan world. With 3rd rate authors churning out 5th rate books by the score with never a new story line, just a slight variation of characters. Not unlike the tv soap operas.
The only good thing with Llewellyn, from my point of view as a book seller, is that the wiccan law of three fold return applies on many of their publications, I buy the crap for £2 and can sell it to a fluffy kiddy wiccan for £6

PMSL. That really describes some pagans we all know, perfectly

Yup, I can see a great future in the snake oil business (not that I want to)!

What?! You never heard of "Tosserama"? Man, have I got a bargain for you!

I don't have any issues with Wicca, its not my path, but whatever anyone wants to believe, who am I to nay say them?

Even the Lewellyn book type (w)icca, is a starter for 10 for an awful lot of Pagans, but even if you level the charges of it being homgenous and mainstream it is an 'in' route.

If people find their spiritual enlightment in their pages, get something from it, if following that particular path works for them and brings the fufilment, you have to ask, what do they care what other people think about them or their path.

People on the site my vaery well question the historical accuracy of claims made, but thats not saying that their path is more 'Pagany than thous'.

Be what you want, believe what you want, be happy.

Q

Pasher, just out of interest, what do you make the most money on, is it the to slip into the vernacular, the 'harder core' books of the 'fluffier' ones.

Q

I could be wrong here and Im prepared to be shouted at..

But we would all agree (in fact have .. reread the posts here) that the wiccans that get up everyones noses are the love and lighters.

I was just wondering, is it possible that it pisses people off so much because it reminds us a LOT of the Christain way of looking at things?

You know, black and white, good and bad?

Love and lighters actually believe that there is such a thing as black magick. As do Xtains. They believe in concepts of good and evil... again.. xtains... perhaps, the reason we feel such animosity towards them is because they, within their teachings, give ground to the xtain way of looking at things which is one of the funamental points we are trying to get out into the world regarding paganisim as a whole? For people to understand where we come from, the dualist side of nature and life is one of the fundamental themes that we all have running through our beliefs, be we heathens, witches, druids whatever and the fluffies who mostly tend to be wiccans...are trying to gain us a place in society by taming what we are?

Am I making ANY sense?... Ive re-read what I wrote and Im not sure..

Doesn't this assume that all Pagans have a problem with Christianity? I keep meaning to set up a thread entitled Christians - Don't mind 'em

Heh heh, that depends on your sense of adventure.

Ha ha, i'll wait till I feel brave! (Thanks for your reply to my other post BTW)

To answer this thread semi sensibly. I personally don't have a problem with Wicca, but I do have a problem with people not realising that Wicca belongs to a much larger group, and not the other way round.

It's a double edged sword, due to more publicity about Wicca and Paganism (inc tv) I have noted a couple of times when telling people that I am Pagan that you can see their mind whirring before saying "Oh, you're a witch"

But this isn't against Wicca or people who follow it, more a little frustration that it is the first and foremost thing most non-Pagans think off.

GH

Eh.. no.. thats not wot I meant at all. See.. I just knew I hadnt explained it right.

See... most and I do not mean all but most Xtians see things like good and evil in a simple black and white sense.. we as pagans dont. For THAT reason, no matter what we do we are seen as against god and therefore evil or wrong.. or whatever term you want to use that makes you more comfortable. Wiccans.. who espouse black magick, both buy into that concept AND give it credance. That way of thinking is almost.. anti pagan. I do not know of a pagan worth his or her salt that is not aware of both sides of the world the dark and the light and acknowledge that BOTH are needed... fluffy wiccans.. much like christians dont or wont acknowledge that simple truth. And as Wicca, is without a doubt the best known of the pagan paths thanks to Charmed, Buffy and the litany of fluffy wiccan books out there, it gives an utterly wrong impression of what paganisim is.

I find that the world is subtle shades of grey!

Its actually a bit difficult to say, Queenie, as a lot depends on what I have had to pay for the stock and I am also not exclusively selling witchy / pagan books. In fact much of my sales are from Folklore, Alternative therapies, Occult, Psychic material and Fortean.
Certainly for quantity sales, of witchcraft it tends to be the 'fluffier' and obviously cheaper ones, the Llewellyn 'tat', tacky spell books, Titania Hardy, Cassandra Eason, etc.
But there are a lot of serious pagans and witches out there who dont mind, when necessary, paying higher prices for the better quality material. Books by authors like Robbins, Remy, Valiente, Boyer, Summers et al. Although we try to keep the books by many of these better writers at sensible prices as can be seen on my web site ( Click here to check out my site ) and by viewing stock on my stands at various events, although that is not always possible due to the age and rarity of some items.

How merrily the wheel turns round! Especially whenever the Wicca word pops up!
I should also have added to my first post, the second bit of sage wisdom from the Tas, which is "Suck it and see." If you don't like it, you will soon spit it out!*

I took a look at the link Wolveringe gave - I have only one addition to make to an essay which sums up the views of a lot of our more discerning members. The author wrote,

"By limiting the level(s) of spirituality discussed in its books to those useful to beginners, Llewellyn is in essence keeping its readership in a perpetual infancy stage of spirituality." (Hmm)

Which is, use the OFF switch! No one FORCES people to buy their tat!

* I reckon this applies perfectly to Wicca by the way - unless you are of the school of thought which advocates perseverance. Wicca is, after all, an "aquired" taste...

Makes perfect sense to me Xalle and I would also add that their Idea of all the Gods are one God/ess borders on monotheism IMHO

In Frith.
wolvie

I know a couple of people who, whilst generally being wonderful and lovely people in many respects, have two problems with Wicca - one is it's alleged ancestry (or lack of). The other is the fluffies (not just Wiccan Fluffies but fluffies of all hues).

Personally I couldn't care less about either, to be honest. If some people want to be dolphin huggers and have crystals and gew-gaws hanging around their house, fine. If some people need to believe that their tradition is ancient rather than new, go ahead. If it makes them happy - fine.

As an aside, my father (a practising Atheist!) likes such people - he thinks they serve an essential role - that of the eccentric. Without such people life would be incredibly dull and grey.

Dear Xalle,



I'd agree there are more..... ummmm...... inane might be the right word folk practicing Wicca, wicca, or wiccan-influenced forms of Paganism, than there are inane folk following any other Pagan path.

This is simply because there are many more folk practicing Wicca, wicca, or wiccan-influenced forms of Paganism, than there are folk following any other Pagan path.

The other side of the coin is that there are many more grounded, hard-minded, experienced, educated, and not at all fluffy folk practicing Wicca, wicca, or wiccan-influenced forms of Paganism, than there are grounded, hard-minded, experienced, educated, and not at all fluffy folk following any other Pagan path. They just tend to be rather less visible.

It's a quantitative, not a qualitative, phenomena. No path will make you grounded, hard-minded, experienced, educated, and not at all fluffy by itself. We need to put in the work on that ourselves.

BB,

John Macintyre

Dear Wolvie,



I think you'll find it's not 'our' idea. It derives, AFAIK, from Dion Fortune, who was very influential in the earlier years of the modern Pagan revival, and thus very influential on Wicca in its early years. She in turn was presumably drawing on ancient Pagan concepts of Isis Myrionymous synthesised with her own take on Christianity.

Many Wiccans are 'duotheists', or believe in other forms of polytheism, including 'hard polytheism'. Many are just polytheists. Some are monists. Some find a kind of Jungian pantheism a useful theological framework. Many don't think any human theological framework can adequately describe divinity and treat any such concepts as tentative hypothesis at best.

BB,

John Macintyre

True, true.. totally true John. I accept there are many many fully rounded Wiccans.. but I dont think I've ever met a fluffy Heathen, Druid, Norsie, Shaman... I've met the odd witch, sorry no.. Ive met the odd person claiming to be a witch.. who was fluffy, but never met an actual witch that was fluffy.

Dear Xalle,



I can assure you that once Llewellyn & its ilk start publishing books along the lines of:

"Hip Heathenry - How To Become A Valley-Vola" by Signe Cashregistersdottir

"Golden Pop-Sickle" by Taliesin Creditcard

and

"Spirit Journeying - Your Guide To The Cool Places To Be Seen Hanging Out In" by Psychedelic Buffalo Person

All you Heathens, Druids and Shamans out there are going to start feeling just as embarassed as us Wiccans often do now.

BB,

John Macintyre

Oh I am sure we can accommodate these publishers with a nice group one way ticket to the Bermuda Triangle via "White-Knuckle" Airlines on such an occasion!

You don't want to, Xalle, you don't want to!

but they're out there.......

Its a most disturbing thought.. I mean.. how.. what...

"grrr... beer and helmet and sword.. but it is the sword of light and has unicorns engraved on the blade and i only use it to cut thought negativity...."

*shudder*

heh. Two examples:

The lads who tried to convince the old hands on UK Heathenry that a Wolfsangel was a pre-historic Heathen symbol (They hadn't got the wit to read the Wikipedia reference, even when it was given them) and they were going to learn how to take the form of wolves: could anyone offer help?

The girl who tried to assure us that Odin came and sat on bed every night and gave her a hug when she depressed because her mum had died.

yeah.......right........

seemed to rattle a few gages any way but sometimes you have to say what you think i have met a few outher types ov pagans who have been not fluffy but woolie dont do yankie stuff myself just needed to get it off me chest [love light bright bleesings blessed be merry meet ] oops shouldnt av said that




AND THE FLUFFY ONES MAY YOUR TAIL BE EVERBUSHY

I didn't see any cages rattled
sorry if that was your intention.


smell a bit trolly round 'ere ?

I like the others have no problem with wicca.

Heaven forfend! Cage rattlin'? Here? Never!

But I'm intrigued by the fact you have met some of our woolly brethren (and sistern) and that you advocate "Bright Blessings" to us all. Might I suggest you also offer us your "Pink Blessings" too? So as not to ruffle any fleeces!

That's scary. Don't know who it was (if anyone) but I'm pretty damm sure it wasn't Odin. Did you suggest counselling?

Frey

We were very restrained.

Really.

One or two of us suggested that, just possibly, maybe, it was someone else.

She told us off roundly and said she just knew it was him because of the ravens. She stamped her foot and held her breath and we all backed off and felt for the bargepoles.

Nothing wrong with Wiccans. As people have said, each to their own. As previously stated, wiccan and the like are highly publisised (spell check pls) and as such are the first port of call for many new and interested pagans.

I was one of these people and when i first realised I could buy books about paganism i greedily grabbed lots of wicca books, thinking THIS was paganism. However, reading them something didn't feel right and they led me to research other alternative paths until i came to the conclusion that actually there doesn't need to be a strict hierachical (spell again pls) path in paganism and that its a very personal and inwardly looking religion.

Without these books i think i would have never arrived at these conclusions and so i am grateful for their insight. I still might read them at some point or use them as reference cos they do have some nice bits in them, like runes and such which i can never remember.

It is a little sad and tiresome that "ordinary" people and media lump all pagans into one basket and say that Wicca is THE PAGAN PATH. But i'm not overly bothered cos thats their misguided and ignorant view point, not mine. If they bothered to do proper research then maybe i might take note.

Anyway, enough rambling and back to the beer.

Sorry, to hear you've come across probs mightyoak. You won't have a problem from me. Although I don't go in for ceremonial/ritual magic/wiccan beliefs (it doesn't really do much for me) I do respect your right to do whatever you wish - fluffy or not. Like you, I am not very clear about what 'fluffy' means. From my point of view 'pagan' is pagan and there is no degree of 'paganness' - you either are you aren't. I think what is important is that we don't start fighting each other over differences. We're a small enough minority as it is - we don't need to be devisive.

fizzy