Got a question for you guys. It's a bit deep but I'm interested in what you all think.
It's the one subject I can't find any info on

Anyway, my question is this, (I'll understand if this gets deleted)

How do you see suicide? What's the Pagan or Wiccan standpoint?

"Sin"? No opinion? Weakness? Insult to the deities? Illness? Attention seeking?

I have an opinion, but I'd like to hear what you guys think first.....
(Oh, & I'm NOT suicidal BTW, just interested)

We had a thread on this very topic a wee while ago. I've linked to it here so you can have a look at it too.

Basically, depending on the circumstances, I think suicide is deeply sad, or incredibly selfish.

That's this Pagan's standpoint - I don't think there's a standard across the board.

Well I see suiside as maybe a way out for someone who knows no other way, but it won't help them, because I believe they'll come back and relive the situation so they can learn whatever lesson was meant to be learnt from it the first time round which wasn't learnt because they chose to end their life - I think that makes sense

As Pomona says, this has come up before.
Personally, I have first hand experience. My father, who was a Doctor of medicine, took his life when I was 5 yeasr old. I spent many years feeling betrayed, bereft etc and also as a child, blaming myself. Only now, mant years down the line, can I understand what he had been going thorough. Suffice it to say my mother is a strange person. I also know this from my experiences BEFORE my father's death. So I am not projecting blame etc etc. Also, I have no way of knowing what hells he was going through.
There are 2 trains of thought as far as I can see.
1} That each of us only has fealty to our own self and belief system, so it's down to the individual. This has no bearing on reality, as a person's mental state may prevent sentient thinking, also there are the pieces left for the others to pick up.

2}Then there is the "It's totally wrong, under any circumstances" school of thought. The Church in particular teaches that suicide is a sin and that souls go to Purgatory etc. This also has llittle bearing on reality. The same applies re above, PLUS the Church has such a hold that feelings of pain/inadequacy felt by family and friends are, if they too believe the Church's teachings, excacerbated.

I think that if we take the Xian teachings OUT of the equation it helps. But not much. The peopple left behind suffer. But the, it's not always ABOUT them, is it?

I do firmly believe that if a person discovers they have a debilitating illness that they should have the right to decide to end their own lives. But I do not think this should be foisted onto the medical proffession, as some would wish.That's a cop out.
Me personally? If I get too decrepit and unhappy, I will tell everyone of my intention, then have myself helped (if I can't crawl there) above the snowline somewhere in Scotland. I shall consume a couple of bottles of single malt whisky, go to sleep, and die quietly and peacefully, from hypothermia.
I will not feel too bad about whatever services have to retrieve my frozen corpse, having paid plenty into the system over the years.

That sounds like a good death Tas Sort of thing I wouldn't mind myself.

You also have a damn valid point about taking the church out of the equation. I think so much of our attitudes towards suicide are still based on the church's way of things.

Personally, suicide 'attempts' in which people make comments and get everyone worried about them and then try slashing their wrists the 'wrong' way with a bic (HELLO?!) wind me up like nothing else. So do suicide threats. Sounds horrible but I just tell them to get on with it. Chances are they don't actually want to and are just doing it to manipulate.

However when a person gets so low that they can see no other way out - I find that incredibly sad and awful. For a person to be that broken that they see no future and absolutely nothing to live for - well my heart goes out to them and I want to try help 'make them better' (sounds naive I know). But while there are some people who can be brought back from this and heal, I think there are others that can't - it's their fate that they die like that and sometimes all a person can do is be there so they don't die alone(if you somehow end up in that position), wish them well and hope they end up in a better place.

It's also easy to say that a person is selfish for doing it but suicide in itself isn't selfish as far as I'm concerned but the method can be. I think stepping out in front of a train is selfish because you're not only killing yourself but you're mentally scarring the driver for life, same goes for jumping off a motorway bridge. Anything where you're reliant on the actions of another person to do the deed is nasty. Some people might say it's selfish having people find your body but we all day one day and our bodies are always found by someone.

If I was to do it - it would be because I had no other option or I was going to die anyway and didn't like the death I was lined up for. If I could, I'd do it by taking a massive overdose of something like insulin - used to always think I'd be a slasher but that would really be a head wrecker for the person that found me and then there's people having to clean up all the blood and well... I wouldn't want that.

I dont believe there is or can be a particularly Pagan or wiccan viewpoint on this. Has Pagans all tend to follow their own path in life, they presumably are also going to follow their own path to death.
Its not like being a christian, where the rules/priests/vicars etc., say its wrong (a sin) to take your own life.


As "SIN" is pretty much exclusively a christian concept, a Pagan/wiccan/witch cannot possibly think of suicide as a sin, anymore than a muslim suicide bomber would.

To have No opinion on any subject and indicates that a person is mentally immature and incapable of logical thought processes.

As an Atheist Pagan, I certainly dont look upon it as an insult to the deities, as I have hold concept of deities. To me and other atheists, deities are something that do not exist, and it is not possible to insult a non-existent thing.

Certainly many if not most suicides and attempted suicides boil down to Attention seeking? but are also closely linked to Illness? and Weakness?. The person is mentally unable to cope with (often very minor) problems in their life (my mothers aunt hung herself because her new false teeth did not fit properly) and is pleading for help and support, to cope with their difficulties. I believe that if we humans where more caring and compassionate, most suicides would not happen. There are always some warning signs and if folks would only see them, the deaths would generally not occure.

For me, suicide is predominantly an unacceptable (cowards) way of avoiding a given situation but as Tas so rightly mentions there are certain circumstances were suicide or euthanasia (the deliberate killing of a person for the benefit of that person) is the right and correct option and everything should be done by caring, decent people to help the person on their way.
We would not (and do not, under the law) force a dog or cat to live in constant overwhelming pain (unless one is a medical researcher) so why should a human in the final stages of cancer or some other horrendous condition be forced to.

Not sure if there is an official stand point - have heard that the wiccan rede says 'harm none' so I am assuming that includes self harm and suicide.

I don't follow wicca myself so I don't ascribe to the above. I see suicide as an individual decision, which can cause suffering for others, but, I believe that suicide victims should try to be understood if possible and suicide survivors should be treated sensitively and if they can cope with it, truthfully too.

I don't like to judge. After attempting suicide a long time ago I've learned that people do things for reasons only they can understand sometimes and perhaps its a struggle to accept for others (ie loved ones) but then its also a struggle for the suicide survivor.

I see little point in blame or anger (although I realise these feeling can bring clarity sometimes) but human beings experience stuff in their own way and sometimes blame, anger, disappointment etc are just a part of the whole thing and have to respected too (easier said than done, I know).

I hope thats answered some of your questions. please feel free to comment.

fizzy.

Thank you everyone who replied. It was really interesting to hear your opinions.

Pomona, thanks for the link (is Rainbow ok? I help moderate in a mental health support forum & would be more than happy to post the link, if you think it would be of any help)
Hopefully once I figure out how everything works I won't be posting questions that have already been asked!

It's also very comforting to see how supportive you are! It's fantastic!

I attempted suicide years ago & have a history of self harm & when I brought it up a while back in another Pagan/Wiccan forum, the negativity I got was amazing!!!
The response actually triggered me & I developed a strong feeling of guilt over my past. It took a good year of looking into myself & the how, what, where, when,why sort of thing.

My humble little opinion is there is no such thing as suicide. People die of Depression.
& I certainly don't think it's a weakness. Are people who die of Cancer weak because they were unable to continue battling with the disease?
When I OD'd I didn't think it was the right thing to do I knew it was the right thing to do. I was actually laughing at my Mum being so worried. I truly believed she was the one deluded. Now I can't believe I was so convinced & calm....

Personally when I used to self harm (it's been a good 2yrs no harming! woo-hoo! ) choice never came into it. It was such a strong compulsion. I felt if I didn't harm I'd literely explode due to amount & intensity of my emotions!
Therefore I don't see SH or suicide as being against the Wiccan Rede, tho I know plenty of people disagree with that.

I've just had a thought...that other group, the majority of members were American. Do you think there's a difference between Pagans & Wiccans in the UK & US?

Oh & BTW I may still be ill but SH & suicide is NOT in the picture, just therapy & the necessary evil that is anti-depressants!
So no need to worry or panic

A lot of pagans have problems because:
1) they're people, and people have problems with suicide, and
2) people in our society are brainwashed into the Christian view, and for a lot of pagans, it's not a quick and simple matter getting rid of that

I spent a while as a Samaritan. Sams tend to be completely practical and pragmatic about this stuff, as well as having, between themselves, a mordant sense of humour on the subject (as I guess undertakers do!). It's not a lack of sympathy but the constant exposure to some extreley horrific situations (no, I'm not going into details here!)



I think some people also die of manipulation. they meant to cry for help, or (very occasionally) to act the role of victim and miscalculate. But that's not as frequent as the other deaths. There are also people who appear to view suicide (from the notes they leave) as the only way to get their own way. One awful example of this is the abusive husbands who kill their children and themselves, apparently to get at their ex-wives.

This is completely separate from your own experience, Sootica, and not an attempt to lump together the different reasons for suicide.



I completely understand where you're coming from. Everyone I know who has self harmed has explained it was the only way they could ease that emotional pressure. Much better than suicide!



I suspect a lot of people who adhere to the Rede (I don't, not being Wiccan) haven't thought it through.



IME, yes. As someone I know puts it: every religion can be divided into LHP and RHP (or, to you and me, fundamentalists and the rest). there's a lot of fundies in every religion in the US.

I don't think that saying someone is a coward really means anything when you are talking about some who is severely depressed or suffering from a severe mental illness. The way I viewed the world before I tried ( many years ago) was so different to the way other people saw it that I don't think they could really judge what I did. I think it was probably the bravest thing I've ever done because that was the time in my life that I was so much more frightened than anytime before or since and I still pulled together all the strength I had left and went for the only solution I could see.

The same goes for it being selfish by not considering the people left behind. The self esteem of the person can be so low that they believe that they aren't just worthless but that the world and their loved ones will be far better without them. It's almost certainly not true, there will be friends and family who will never get over it. But the person is so totally removed from reality that they can't see that. I was thinking of others when I tried to kill myself, I was thinking how much better things would be for them once I'd gone.

Don't get me wrong I am *very* *very* glad it didn't work. I know what I've said doesn't apply to everyone but I just don't think that it's something that can be generalised about.

Sorry rant over.

Arddyn
(worrying that people will be scared of her)

You know that was exactly what I was trying to say! Thanks!

You can always tell if someone has been under big Ds cloud! (

Tas, (and I hope im remembering this correctly) but im sure i read somewhere, that certain Inuit, when they feel death approaching, go to the ice fields, and either let themselves die from hypothermis, or thor themselves over into the ice fjords.
Point Im making with that is, no-one in their culture thinks they are cowardly for wanting a quick end etc.
As for those who commit or try to commit suiced due to severe depression. how can ANYONE think they are selfish or cowardly? they cannot think straight at all due to illness, they are quite simply, severely ill.
I have also known those who use suicide as a "cry for help/attention seeking" method. My ex used to do this often when we first split. However, i eventually learned to call teh police adn send them round, that way, he would get done for wasting police time etc!
BUt good on all those of you who are survivors of depression or SH. You should be very proud of yourselves for getting through your dark days and now being able to lift your head high. Well done you!

tree

One of my Uncles committed suicide. He had found out that he had an illness and was going to die in a not very nice way.
He didn't do it in a horrid way. He sorted out all the finances for his family and then went somewhere beautiful and used a hose from the car and fell asleep.

In no way do I think he committed a sin. He didnt want to put himself or his family through a much more terrible time.

Of course we were upset, but in all honesty, it was great that he didn't suffer, and I don't think I would hesitate if I knew I was going to die and no one could help me and it was going to be painful. Of course I would make sure my kids understood too.

gina
xxx

I enjoy your honesty. And that of the others on this thread (and the other one, on mental health) who have the strength to tell it how it is for them. It seems to me it takes guts to say those things. thank you!

Congratulations sootica, no self harm for two years - thats a real achievement - I really empathise with the strong feelings (my own feelings got/get pretty powerful sometimes) It can be hard to know what to do with them (I usually do some cleaning - not a bad thing - my family are definitely not tidy )

I can't answer about the differences between UK and US pagans - cos I don't know any US pagans. Whoever they were though Sootica - if they made you feel uncomfortable about who you are - give them a wide berth you don't need that kind of thing.

I agree totally with your view re: people die of depression. People often forget that depression is an illness - and often it has a physical component - just like a 'normal' physical illness - funny, nobody blames them when they die! I think its just ignorance and fear really - not nastiness (of course, there's always exceptions).

anyway, I am pleased to hear that you are better than previous.

fizzy

really, really, good point - one that I agree with too. I think that when a person is depressed or ill their view of the world does change - this is based on my own experience and experiences with others.

fizzy

I have very mixed feelings, on the one hand compassion because most people would only do it if terribly unhappy but otoh i think it is without doubt a selfish act - because of the effect on others. I would agree with euthanasia for terminally ill patients if they wanted it but can't see how it can be justified for mentally ill or depressed as they by defiiiton surely cannot make a decision about it rationally? Also I hate the self indulgent suicide websites, mainly young teenagers wallowing in depression and egging each other on talking about suicide my neighbour when I lived in the uk, her daughter killed herself a few years back and i would blame the site she was on for encouraging and feeding her self-obsession.
sad subject and very hard to say definately suicide is never always right or wrong - very sad

I totally agree with that.
People who are severely Depressed need to be round encouraging, optimistic people. People that will call 999 for them if they do anything drastic.
If I knew anyone who was a member of a site like that I would strongly advise them to leave the group & recommend a support group. One that helps not hinders.
Personaly I think those site should be shut down.
However if the subject of Depression, SH & suicide isn't open discussed where are those people supposed to talk about their feelings?

I do believe suicide needs to be talked about, but in a understanding way. Like the way we are here. It is way too much of a taboo subject.

As for euthanasia for a mentally ill person....I don't think that's an option. As others have stated, if your mentally unstable how can you make a fair, just decision?
To me euthanasia should be for the terminally ill only.

Also euthanasia & suicide are 2 completely different things. Euthanasia has an element of control while suicide is due to a disturbed mind & thoughts.



Thanks
You know I clean too when I get upset... 8/10 it does the trick & calms me down. My fella can tell the state of my mood my how clean & tidy my flat is! lol

Interesting thoughts - thanks to all who have been so brave and vulnerable here- its really appreciated and nice to feel a place can be created for such openess and honesty.
I have always felt that suicide was a sign of severe mental illness and that the person had nowhere else to turn.
I have in the past contemplated suicide, but not to the point of doing something about it. I currently am going through a depressive episode and didn't realise how bad I had got until my wife told me she was scared I would do something stupid, she worried every time I was late home from work!! I couldn't do it even if I wanted to (I think) just thinking how fucked up it would leave my wife and kids stops me (not that I judge those who do carry it out!)

I also am concerned re the 'attention seeking attempts' of (usually) silly teenagers!

Euthansia - yep, can see it as an option for the terminally ill BUT am v v v concerned re the ethics of it and where do we draw the line.....


Whoa - possibly my longest post!

Oh and Arddyn - we aren't scared of you hun!

In this pagan's opinions, I truly believe that suicide is a permanant solution to temporary problems. Some people get dealt incredibly crappy hands, but generally speaking things either get better or ones ability to cope with the problems gets better.

I judge no-one who bows out that way - but I just wish that there was more support and access for people suffering from mental health problems.

Q

So people who are their wits end, who feel they have been abandoned by all around, maybe been abused physically, mentally and emotionally, are "mentally ill" in your view?

Having worked in a couple of mental institutions, I know that some do have a predestination for suicide. That is simply a fact of Nature. Then there are those who feel trapped in utter futility, or feel they have totally failed beyond all reconcilliation. It can depend on biochemistry or simply the person's attitude towards life. There are those who are even unaware of their suicidal tendencies, for all their inability to recognize potential dangers. This is not to be confused with identity crisis, namely those inflict things on themselves for attention. This is different from those who inflict injury on themselves out of self-persecution. Although dealing with suicidals can be exasperating, I have no convictions about it, as its all a matter of perspective. Some can handle it, some cannot. It's a classic example of how natural selection expresses itself in the course of trial and error. This may seem a cold and analytical view, but at the end of the day, I prefer to direct my emotions into more creative or sexually gratifying areas. Indeed, sex, art, writing or playing an instrument provides enough emotional release, for rationale to find its hands and feet. With anger, if you can't thump the culprit, there's always gardening or working with wood (not to mention the occasional Vodu). No one was meant to be perfect, otherwise we wouldn't have a reason to learn and evolve.

Your sort of situation was one of the things Samaritans tended to bear in mind. Not everyone who thinks about suicide will seriously attempt it. We tried to sort out those who were serious by talking to them about what methods they were contemplating. That might sound like scary stuff, but those who are serious will have thought through the various methods and will be able to say what ones they rejected, and why, and which they favour, and why. When someone tells you they've sorted out their will and how many pills (and what sort) they have collected, then the alarm bells ring with a vengeance. Especially if they're calm about the whole thing.

Which is not to ignore those in emotional turmoil. However, we all hated being woken in the early hours of the morning on a Saturday or Sunday (when doing a sleepover shift) be some young lad who thought it might be a giggle to pretend to be suicidal. Because we wouldn't take the risk that it wasn't hiding something more serious. Why did he think it was a giggle? Was he really wanting to ring us but the only way he could get the courage was to get bladdered and make that first call in front of his mates pretending to have a laugh?

If any of you do get seriously down and the housework (or whatever!) doesn't work for you that day, and you need the sound of a human voice rather than the rattle of a keyboard, I'd recommend the Sams. They do have very good training (or used to have), and the ones I had the pleasure to have worked with with lovely people. And they keep their records secret - nothing goes elsewhere without the caller's permission. I've known Sams stick with someone as they committed suicide but didn't want anyone else to be called. It's pretty gut wrenching stuff, not merely for the Sam on the phone, but also for their duty buddy and the duty supervisor. But that's part of what they feel they're there for.

Funny, Id totally forgotten the cleaning thingy. I used to get really into bleaching everything bleachable - walls, doors, paintwork, kitchen and bathroom. The house would be spotless. Poor partner always knew the way I felt by the Richter scale of bleach odour as he approached the house!
Now? Suffice to say, i still get a bit down from time to time - we all do - but I no longer do the whole spotlessness bit. Too damn idle now, really...

I've known Sams stick with someone as they committed suicide but didn't want anyone else to be called. It's pretty gut wrenching stuff, not merely for the Sam on the phone, but also for their duty buddy and the duty supervisor. But that's part of what they feel they're there for.

[/quote]

As a matter of interest, I didnt know they were allowed to do that. I thought if they knew somone was killing themselves, the Sams had a duty to call for help eg Police etc??

Could you clear that up for me? Not having a go, just interested.

tree

I wasn't involved, and that's what the duty supervisors are for.

Put it this way: under such circumstances Sams try to persuade the person to give them enough information that they could help, but it's up to the individual. If someone isn't willing to give their address what can be done?

I suppose it might be possible to trace a phone line. But now you're going beyond my knowledge. Sorry.

And there's the other kind, too: they tell you what they intend to do (in some cases the form can be very distinctive. Don't want to give details of the one that still gives me the horrors), but no information, and then, a week later, you read about it in the local paper.

I've kept the back door open for many years, and with my current situation it's been pretty attractive. My counsellor told me that children can adapt to most things in the way of parental separation, moving house, changing schools etc. but the thing that FUBARs them is the suicide of a parent. Nothing else even comes close.
So I've closed the door now.
The scary thing was that I was always in more danger of suicide when I was getting better, because then I knew it was a rational decision, not a product of depression.
As to the harms none, yes I think suicide is harmful, but people have to do what they have to do, and should be able to do so without fear of condemnation.
Badger's Moon
xx

I knew there was something else I meant to say.

One of the things I got taught when i was a Sam was that the most dangerous time for suicide is as people begin to emerge from deep depression. You say it's because you began to think again. I was taught it was because people begin to regain energy. Maybe it comes to the same thing.

Andy - isn't what you describe 'depression'?
And I in no way mean mentally ill to be a derogatory term - I include myself in the category!

Isn't/wasn't that the problem with Seroxat? It didn't alleviate the feelings of depression but it made people more energetic and likely to deal, drastically, with those feelings?

Himself and I were waiting in the Curry house for our carry out on Saturday evening, and reading the daily tabloids on offer. In one of them there was a HORRIFIC story about some guy who had HUNG hilmself, LIVE on a webcam. There was some sort of blotted out picture, presumably of him, plus a header that a "mate" on the site had actually egged him on to get a move on and do it. Seemingly it had all been planned.
I don't think this was a kid-on article, but genuine. I didn't choose to read it - in fact a cursory glance throuth the offerings in these rags is enough to give a normal person bad dreams at the best of times.
(To say nothing of possibly ruining one's appetite for the curry.)
But we are in a culture that gets its jollies from other's sufferings, and I for one do NOT like it.
On one hand, it is good that mental health issues are more open, on the other, this openness seems to have opened a floodgate for the sickos.
Rant over.

Some peolple who commit suicide do it because they dont like where life has taken them and they dont know the way out of a mess. pagan usually take full responsability for there reality and know that they can change what they dont want and / or learn from there mistakes. So the reasons for suicide would be greatly diminished if not outright eliminated.

Yes and i'm sure the drug company denied this.

in scots law you cannot be tried for attempting suicide but you can be tried for commiting it!!!!!

LOL

work that one out!

(If anyone wants any off post info pm me - it's what i do in my working life)

I couldn't say for sure, but it certainly didn't give me any more energy! I stopped taking it because I was tired all the time!

I know the main problem the drug companies got was that they said it wasn't addictive ( I was told this when I was prescribed it & that was the main reason why my doctor prescribed it to me) but it's actually one of the most addictive medications out there! Basically the drug company lied.
To have a un-addictive anti-D is what everyone dreams of so when it came out everyone jumped for it. Considering it costs £60 per pill, you know why the companies lied!
I know of a guy who has been trying to come off it for the last 5 years but the with-drawl is so bad that he starts taking it again!

Through experience I can say it's a bastard to come off.....

Also there was a high teenage suicide rate (it's now for 18 & over) but I think that is hard to prove...I've found people who have a child that commits suicide channel their anger onto others such as drugs, music, films etc. (I don't blame them for doing this but I feel that they can't give an un-biased few)

It was also given to people for the most ridiculous reasons such as shyness!!!

It was/is a badly managed drug that was rushed out before they knew just what it was capable of & that the drug companies get paid so much for it, explains alot!

I was on Seroxat for about 5 years with a break in the middle when I was pregnant and breast-feeding. I came off it 3 years ago and it's taken me those 3 years to reach any semblance of sanity. The only way I could come off it was to hit my system with a different but equally powerful drug. I still need to take anti-depressants now.
My psychotherapist told me that I wasn't actually bi-polar, it was only the Seroxat that made me mimic the symptoms of manic-depression. It's a horrible drug, made me feel bloody awful. I was loud, obnoxious and arrogant when on the up and loud, obnoxious and miserable when on the down.
It did cure my fear of spiders though... but not permanently.
Badger's Moon
xx

Hi,
It's strange you should say this coz I was given Seroxat when I decided I wanted to come off dothiapin, which i'd been taking a 300ml a day dose of for nearly 5 years. The dothiapin suppressed my emotions and energy most of the time but I had the odd bout of "mania", don't think I was bi-polar but used to go off on little "happy trips" where everything was wonderful and I was going to sort my life out and all that. I normaly ended up in the middle of the peak district or the dales on my own with all I needed in my rucksack. While I was on dothiapin I never attempted topping myself, I thought about it regularly though. (planned it at one point) .
I'll not go into details but lets just say that within 3 months of me starting seroxat I was attending the psych ward at the local hospital and my GP couldn't understand how I had survived taking every tablet in my possesion, bare in mind I had planned this (IN THE PAST), I knew what I was doing, I didn't do the "cry for help" thing, I intended to go to sleep and never wake up. The thing is, when I did this I was feeling the happiest I had for years, it wasn't (or didn't seem) to be a "trip" it was a constant high, although i'd become very agresive with it. I had more fights in that 3 months than I have ever had in my life. (i'm normaly the one trying to stop the fights)
I think it was the complete opposite the way the two drugs worked that I couldn't cope with, Its a very strange feeling when your as happy as you have ever been and you want to die more than you ever have in the past.
I don't know who was there at the time but somebody was watching over me. I remember being taken by the hand and led around watching my body die. We moved objects that I could have physicaly hurt myself with/on. that somebody nursed me through the night and the morning came. It took two days for the tablets to ware off, till I was able to phone a friend for help. When I told my doc this he said I was just hallusinating. Maybe, mabe not.
I'm off a/d's now, have been for 3 years.
bb
RamsHart
Ps I could be a good argument against suicide, my life has turned full circle, but i still think that if somebody wants to die they should be allowed to.

Dothiepin is a pretty crappy drug - I often felt 'high' when I'd taken it - and it did me no good either - so I stopped taking it all together - and didn't really feel that much different.


fizzy

The trouble with most antidepressants is that each one works so differently for each person. Apart from broad-spectrum side-effects like the Seroxat/suicide connection no-one can truly predict how or indeed why a drug might work for you.

I'm lucky in that I have a very understanding, caring GP who was willing to let me try different drugs (under fairly close supervision, I had to check in with him every Monday morning) until we found the one that suits. I've been on Venlafaxine for about 18 months now, and haven't been this well in years.

Not all GPs have the time or the inclination to spend that much on individual patients, and mental health services are few and far between. Afraid I bent the ears of the local Samaritans above and beyond the call of duty over the past 2 years...
Badger's Moon
xx

I was on Seroxat for around 5 or 6 years. I have been left with slight photo sensitivity which basically means you will see me with sunglasses on even on cloudy days occasionally or if I don't have them with me my eyes will be scrunched up because of the light. the tablets didn't really help me, they had various side effects which caused me problems and turned me into something I am not... (Won't go into it on the forums though) When I came off them I was put onto Escitalopram for a while but the side effects of them made me feel so crappy I was put onto a different one which was Sertraline (Lustral), I was prescribed those in sept 2005 but never took them and informed my doctor I wouldn't do, explaining that I had major anxiety issues surrounding tablets (fairly recent at the time) he ok'd that and said we would see how I go without. I am still not taking any meds for my various problems but am seeing a psychotherapist who has been good (only got three more sessions left though)

Drugs aren't always the answer, sometimes they will help and do work great, others they either don't make any difference or send you even deeper into the pit as it were. I sometimes feel I should be on something but just can't face the thought of tablets... It's hard enough for me to take antibiotics when I need them let alone a tablet every day for the foreseeable future.
Sorry but bollox... being a pagan would have no damn effect on weather you would contemplate suicide or not... the reasons for thinking about/ doing it remain the same no matter what you believe. To say that being a pagan would negate the reasons for suicide is total stupidity and shows a complete lack of understanding of the issues surrounding it as far as I am concerned. Now it's possible I have miss understood what you were trying to say Lizard but I don't think I have as the way you put it is pretty clear cut. As a depressive I have thought about it before but never gone through with it, Why not? simply because at the time I was too depressed to even do that, I thought what's the point of it, it won't change anything.. through all my mental health issues, I have lost a lot of the 'contact' I felt with my faith and beliefs, I haven't been able to meditate effectively for a long time, I haven't done any major magical working either because I am not in the right mind space, loosing that connection has been very hard for me, What I am trying to say there is that through it all my beliefs have at times meant nothing to me I have felt empty and as such if I was sucidal my 'paganness' (is that even a word lol ) would have made no difference to me going through with it.

So that's what it is! I've realised over the past few years that I've become more photosensitive. I thought it was just old age creeping up! Never knew it was a side-effect of Seroxat. I was on it for about 6 years too.
It's really annoying cos i wear spex anyway and sunglasses are buggerdly expensive.
Thanks for giving that little nugget Herne.
Badger's Moon
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yeah the photo sensitivity is one of the milder side effects of Seroxat.

Venlafaxine always worked for me although i am going to get a light box for this coming winter as i don't do so well in the winter!!

E x

I've never taken cocaine, and I've no idea what it does to you, but someone told me that while I was on Seroxat I had some of the mannerisms of a coke-head. Loud, twitchy and arrogant.
I had a total meltdown when I came off it and had to be put on trannies as well. It should be banned.
Badger's Moon
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When you came off it did you suffer with what I can only describe as internal tremors? basically when I stopped taking them I felt like I was constantly twitching and shaking but it wasn't noticeable to anyone else, hence me describing them as internal. Just curious to know if it was just me or if other Seroxat users who have experienced similar. (If you would rather take it to PM's instead of on the open forums thats fine by me )

seroxat...

seroxat did horrible things to my head. i had it for 3 weeks, and that was the worst 3 weeks of my life.



yeah, thats what happened to me too. i found myself doing stuff with a suffocated, muffled voice of reason hammering for attention in the back of my head.

later reading up on it, i should never have been prescribed it in the first place, because of these side effects

one of the failings i think of the mental health service was when i was fighting the addiction to cut, and went to the doctor asking for help. i told him of my daily battle, and that i was getting tired of fighting it, and wanted some help and support. i basically got told, you havnt cut, so you dont need help.. which to me was a really messed up way of thinking. so.. i actually had to do the things i didnt want to do, in order to get some help not to do them? go figure...

i have not cut for a good while now, but turned to body modification. piercings, tats and scarification by branding.

when i got my brand, it was something really special for me. i know someone close was worried that it was just another form of self harm (one of those who sees all body modification as 'mutilation') but for me it was a reclamation. i was reclaiming the sensation to make it into something beautiful and decorative. I was reclaiming scars from being born of hurt and anguish, into something born of self love.

edit - this was my way.. i dont suggest anyone gets branded as some kind of therapy, but i was right for me at the time.

This thread has a lot of familliar things in it... from the drugs and my reactions to them... to the dark places where even a light can ONLY be an oncomming train... to the self protection of curling up at home and hiding from the world... to the wearing of masks and pretending 'normalicy'... yes I know this place... But I don't feel I can really talk here, not yet, not now...
And if I do, I'll blog it.

With all your struggles with this thing we call life... Good luck and may your gods (or not gods) go with you

Be bright, be bold
Fillionous

This is how I seemed to feel on dothiapin! (or that "monged" I couldn't be arsed doing anything.)


The only time I had the "high" moments were when I'd stopped taking it for a while and it was coming out of my system. I once over heard the chemist say my dosage (4 x 75ml tabs a day) would put a horse to sleep. When I did stop taking it the come down after the "high" was always bad and sent me deeper into the depression. I may be mistaken but I think 300ml a day is the highest dose the doc can put you on without you being on a hospital ward. It seriously slows you down! If anybody wishes to correct me, feel free to do so.

INDEED!
bb
RamsHart

Brave words there herne, sounds like you've had a really tough time - I know what you mean about losing 'contact' - its like being estranged, cut off and it ain't nice - took me a long time for me to get back to a place where I felt as though I'd found myself - interestingly enough my pagan beliefs, once I was over my initial difficulties (which lasted a number of years) helped me to re-connect and contribute to my well being.

take care, hope you continue to get better, love fizzy.

If it works for you then it works for you - not all routes to mental well being take the traditional route of drugs and therapy (and they are not always what they are cracked up to be either). The fact that you have found something that works is what matters.

love fizzy.

I take the drugs, and I'm grateful for having found one that works for me now, but if you can find a way of dealing with things that doesn't involve drugs, then I would say that's the best way to go. Most of us don't have the time or the space to explore the things that might work for us, I'm glad you were able to find something that worked for you icefire.
(Am also reminded it's 2 years since my last tatt and I feel in need of a new one... )
Badger's Moon
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