Can a belief system that is not Christian, yet uses all the obvious Christian morals and intents to convert people, really be called "Pagan"?

Depends - do they worship Nature? Dieties? Anything particular you had in mind?
Hey! Just had a wee epiphany (Tas has a new word) ...
Maybe we could start one? Make sure it sounds it well old though, otherwise it will lack credibility. And obscure usually works quite well too. As do long words, and convoluted sentences!
And you could disseminate it via the World Wide Web too...
Let's face it, there are probably as many forums as there are seekers!

Well Tas, let's just say it wants to defy Nature so it can be god.

Sort of like omnipotent, you mean?
Usually repetition works remarkably well for this sort of stuff. Basically, if you repeat a "fact" often enough, people will eventually come to accept it as a Truth. The ultimate use of the meme, after all, it worked for all the multi-nationals!
Or, in the realms of logic, a truism...

Intends to convert people to what? Their belief system?

It would help a little if you could give a little more info on what they believed.

What do you mean, Quasizoid? Whatever it is, if it's defying nature, or attempting to, then it surely can't be pagan. And I'd be suspicious of any religion that feels the need to convert people, just on general principles.

Not sure it can be pagan if 'god' wants to defy it.

Yup, that's what I figure. In that case I reckon their use of the term "Pagan" is a ruse regardless of whether they use magick or not... I mean the Santeria are a Catholisized form of Vodu, so what does magick make them? Then there are the Rominis who are very fearsomely Catholic. Where does the line really fall if any?

I think you mean voodoo/vaudun and like gypsy romany? (fizzy desperately trying to keep up here ). um. yeah, you gotta point. but then some folk are full of contradictions but they still believe in their faith. xianity is full of contradictions for example. (not going to do the quote thing).

fizzy

Indeed Xalle, "convert into what" is exactly what I am wondering here.



Yup, I agree that is where the line should be drawn. I can't see any belief as Pagan when it insists chaos is evil and that by imposing strict order against it they can actually achieve the "divine absolute". In Nature's terms "divine absolute" is just another word for "the state of inertia", that is usually followed by something falling down and going boom. People who believe in the absolute too often forget that we are moving through space at about 66,000 miles an hour. Nature doesn't brake for halucinations, that is why there is continuity.

I'm very suspicious of "strict order". Sounds like control freakery and much more typical of the monotheisms than any Pagan religion I've come across. Defying nature doesn't sound very Pagan either, neither does conversion

Is this someone trying to apply a Pagan gloss to what is basically their own take on Christianity?

Yup, definitely their own take on Christianity, but it gets much weirder than that. Its like their view of the world is one of those X-Box virtual reality games, regarding Nature as that field where they can play "god" to thwart their enemies. At that point, I'm more inclined to interpret their view as schizophrenically delusional rather than anything "visionary"...but it does worry me that some inexperienced and uncertain young soul might fall for it.

I'd say "psychotically delusional", whether schizophrenically so or not!
Effectively, anyone purporting to be the "one and only" disseminator of the "one and only TRUE way/faith/path whatever" has to be a tad GENUINELY dodgy???? (Rather than just plain old "barking, got a bit of a bi-polar crisis ongoing, but OK once the medication kicks in"!)

There are a lot of nutters out there, but also, as you so rightly note, a lot of people who will use varioous forms of coercion to gain control/kudos.
But I thought the Moonies et al were well enough known to be avoided nowadays by any sane person? Or are there OTHER weird cultish factions operating out there that I haven't yet heard about yet? (Tas makes a mental note try and get out more!) Or maybe they're just covering up their true nature???

Anybody heard of any?
I hate ANY organisations that try and prey on the weak or ill-informed!

Yes, it would appear the lastest trend in religious/ideological indoctrination is "virtual reality" as typical in computer and module games. It makes me wonder how many of the new age Evangelist cults have caught on to this possibility. I remember a while back, some kid in Germany went into cranial burn-out after spending an entire long-weekend at the controls, without eating or sleeping. At the local psychiatric institution they even have a special station for video/TV/computer game addictions...so it must be serious.

mmm. think I might know what you are getting at here. I've noticed stuff too. and don't they make it sound plausible - all very reasonable beliefs like respect and trust, working hard, giving and taking and stuff - but then when you look at it its all dogma, rules and sin or rejection if you break the rules - and I don't like that.

a religion should be about exploration, learning and not just practical guide to life (ie making a living etc). I don't think that nature has a concept of punishment (i think that is a human thing). There is no evil in nature so how can we be 'sinful' (I know people do bad things and i am not saying thats right to do bad things either). to dress it up as paganism is, well it seems like um... cultish and well quite worrying actually.

I think that religion should be as free from political ideology as possible too. religion is a personal path - nothing to do with making money, i think is more about personal growth.

fizzy.


ps I think I might have discovered my path - I think its called pantheism, its the one that says everything is holy or sacred including plants and animals not just humans.

* fizzy now thinking about next major problem - getting my son in the bath *

Congratulations "Fz" I'm glad to hear that, do enjoy!

I don't like the sound of that. I can see it appealing to young people who play too many virtual reality games. Not all people who join cults are psychotic weirdos although the people who found them often are (just sound terribly plausible). Most of the people who died at Wacco were "normal" human beings who got sucked into a movement that sounded good to begin with. One True Wayism always worries me whether it be religious or political.

That's great Fizzy - good luck with the bath!

Frey

Indeed Freydis, its a sad fact that many dubious cults are only too keen to manipulate those formative years of one's social development. I remember when I was attending high school in the Halifax area (Nova Scotia, Canada) in the 70's I was forever getting encroached by somekind of bible thumper, guru or other pervert with a "grand plan". It was always the same come on "oh but you're not like the others, somebody special, blah, blah...you can help the world become a better place, blah, blah." What they didn't know was that before Halifax, I lived in the Ruhr District (Germany) and was quite "street wise" having worked in various pubs at the age of 16. I had also spent four months bushwacking in the Rockies between British Columbia and Washington State, so you can well imagine what these guys looked like after I had finished with them...but at some point I got sick of that too, so I went back to Germany. At least here they now have specific laws against such entrapments. Unfortunately with the fall of the east block, alot of stranger things still have been trying to sneak their way in.

hmm. yeah I know what you mean quz - my boyfriend works for a company who uses alot of people from abroad (africa and old eastern bloc people) and some of the beliefs are a tad bizarre especially one - who is xian and takes the bible to the letter. he just can't seem to 'see' it for what it is - its like his belief is total and its blinded him in to being a tool of a belief.

I watched 'dogma' a bit back and one of the actors said that christianity as an idea is far better because its flexible, but a belief can not change - I don't think that guy would have had a clue what the actors were trying to say - cos he is so brainwashed.

What really worries me though are the end timers 'cos I watched a documentary by Tony Robinson and they are preaching that the armageddon is close and the people of parts of africa (who really aren't doing well at all) are so looking forward to judgement day that they are neglecting to find ways to improve their lives and survive in a difficult climate/world.

fizzy

Indeed Fizzy, I reckon its in the way one learns to interact with the world around them. There are a number of people I know who married very young before they even had a chance to develop any social skills, and thus led a very sheltered and dependent domestic life, until of course the nest is empty and the parents are naturally left to reassess their lives. Suddenly they realize there's a world out there and upon seeing what they missed, the relationship goes to pieces. It can happen to anyone actually. One woman I know, got so "set in her ways" of domestic life, she persists in treating any newly acquired friends like she's their mother. Of course if they don't submit, she goes into a terrible tantrum! Needless to say, she seldom has friends for very long. I can't think of a more classic example of how too much of a "sheltered existence" can go terribly wrong. Thus any belief or ideology that seeks to confine the responsibilities of the individual, is in many ways self-destructive...if not to their children. It is after all, in our nature to learn from example.

yeah, that seems to be whats happening with the westboro baptists kids. I mean what happens when they get old and they look back and realise what they missed? that is gonna be one heck of a painful blow to them. look at the memories they'll never have if they stay on their path - no kids, no partner, only very few friends whom they call acquaintances, feeling only hatred from others - no wonder they see the world as a hateful place. But its a perception of their own doing. part of me feels sorry for them but part of me wants to say 'wake up and smell the coffee you dumb ass' .

fizzy.

A self-fulfilling prophesy.

More like "self-inflicted" if you ask me Wulfric. Yup Fizzy, that is much the same feeling I get when I see things like that.

I've also been looking into the allegations of the "Pagan cult" in question. While it proposes to be the all-popular new age of paganism of its country, I have found other pagan forums in that nation that speak otherwise. Their references to this as a "zombie cult" and "programming" akin to terrorist tactics says it all...so it would appear this "cult" regards making alot of noise as "being popular". I also see this attitude in its response to my lucid skepticism. It immediately tried to compensate by making me seem more a jealous rival than a skeptic. Of course also being heavily patriarchal, its oppressive interpretations of unsubmissive female behaviour is only too typical. Other women are getting much the same reaction to their questions, so the egocentric pathos of this cult is pretty obvious...and wherever its crusade falls short, it resolves to spamming. It began testing this out on English speaking Pagan forums since September of last year, but made that fatal mistake of labelling anything outside of its pathos as "primitive witchcraft" without any creative sense of integrity. This got itself immediately banned from one forum, while on another, two threads got locked for sexual discrimination. In these two threads the obvious prejudice was its label of dominant females as "Whining Women".

Since then, the approach has been with increasing subtlety, yet still persists in its same domination games. Still, I get the impression that its not so much the obvious prejudices, but its "ego-phallic fixation" that amazes me. Could it be that its reverent guru, himself, is suffering that patrimonial illness called "impotence", thus seeks to overcompensate through "omnipotence"? Also, it appears I was not wrong in assuming its theology has all the trappings of alien abduction- a favourite premis of any new-age occult pathos, assuming to be the "chosen ones" of some cosmic grand plan over human destiny.

LOL, nice one Quasi!
Besides, I reckon the MORE "primitive" my Witchcraft is, the better!
As for the rest, well - anyone who persistently is unable to give a coherent answer to my nice, FRIENDLY requests for info on their native practices becomes a just a wee bittie suspect...
Although, after seeing the mentor "in the round" as it were (see my link) I am hardly surprised -trying to attain credibilty in words is one thing, but the actual physical image leaves a bit to be desired! Maybe this accounts for the impotency of the arguments (amongst other things!) ?

Ah but Tas, didn't you know that DNA can be changed through Witchcraft?...and look at those two fine examples thereof...although I'm still not quite sure what that device is on his mate's left index finger.

Erm, I might be wrong, but I think that it's - erm, HIM!

PS my primitive form of Witchcraft doesn't yet extend to changing D.N.A.
Am I doing summat wrong?

Hmm, yes seems you've left out the ritual polka to enhance the phallic powers of yodelling in the inner circle.

Maybe neo-Nazis could be considered a "new" Paganism? Especially if it was grafted on to an EXISTING folk magic for instance? And let's face it, there are some places spring to mind that could be ripe for this sort of hybrid?
Just think about it - deep in the woods, folk in pointy white hooded robes meet up and re-enact scenes from popular folk myth. Everyone gets the chance to dress up and play a role - right down to the creation of an egregor! Funny how that word keeps springing up, isn't it?

Yup, just had another wiff of pseudo-mystical no-zone, and with each new entry my aeroflot barfbag just keeps getting bigger. All the dodgy twists of half-truths and paramoral double-talk...there is no question that the young man's elaborate manoeuvers have only one purpose...namely to reduce any objective reasoning down to his mindlessly singular ideology. Thus with regard to "energy suckers" it should be clear that this idiot is as futile as arguing with a black hole. Indeed they are one and the same. It is also the kind of insatiable attention-seeking ego that will try anything it can to get it. Indeed it will plant itself right in your face, big blatent and insinuating like a pimple that won't go away, no matter what.

*ahem* Now now play nice Folks..

primitive sounds good to me, too taz.

Thoughtform, intent, and attitude received and approved Fizzy! (PML!)

Better than this:

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PML!
Laterality ROCKS!