Following on from previous post...

So what is Satanism then? Apart from worshipping Satan....

I always thought of Satanism as a rebellious, low key thing that people did just to be "cool". A way to get back at the church and its doctrine.

Is it a serious religion?

If the rumours about Satanism are true and they go for human sacrifice and all that then isnt that a bit nihilistic? I know there were other religions that did that, but they aren't around anymore... (or am i being naive?)

Why worship something that is ultimately just after chaos and death?

And why do all the satanic websites use pentacles and pagan symbolism for their own symbols?

Firstly let me say I am no expert on the subject, just going on what I have read really.

So what is Satanism then? Apart from worshipping Satan....

Satanism isn't always about worshipping Satan as a literal figure, In the case of LaVeyan satanism (The church of Satan Founded by Anton Szandor LavVey in San Fransisco in April 1966 (Walpugisnacht t be precise)) it is about worshipping the self (at least that's the public side of the CoS). it is about self indulgence and I guess total acceptance of every aspect of the psyche, The most important festival to a LaVeyan Satanist is his/her own birthday.

Then there are groups who do believe and worship a literal Satan, I believe the Temple of Set falls into this category,(I may be wrong because I do not know much about the ToS)The ToS was formed in 1975 at a time when the Church of Satan was having problems with internal allegations of corruption etc.

In the case of the ONA well they do believe in a literal Satan and advocate some very dodgy practices. Articles apparently penned by them openly advocate burglary, deep infiltration of society, Nazism and murder. Candidates for sacrifice are tested by their actions to see if they are "worthy" which acording to the group they would be if they have a flawed character for example cowards, traitors and those who prey on the elderly are cited as examples. In some cases the ONA extends this to evangelist Christians. The group has published quite a large number of articles on this and other subjects which you can easily find on the net. I'm not sure if the group still exists, my only experience of them is through their writings which I first read in the mid 90's


I always thought of Satanism as a rebellious, low key thing that people did just to be "cool". A way to get back at the church and its doctrine.

For a lot of the followers of the Church Of Satan I think that is exactly right, they were drawn to it I guess as a clear way of rejecting Christian or other religious doctrine that made them feel guilt for what is natural human response or action.
I know when I was reading up on this kind of thing I was going through a rebellious phase and I gained a certain amount of strength from what I was reading. Though it didn't take me long to realise that it wasn't for me at all. There have always been to an extent a more sinister underside, a less public movement that seems to have a connection with Arianism (though not always) and other extremist groups.

Is it a serious religion?

Yes it is, many of the followers are very serious in their beliefs.


Why worship something that is ultimately just after chaos and death?

It's mainly about self empowerment, creating yourself as a god in a way. Giving the practitioner to do anything they want and being totally free of guilt, Thats not to say that All Satanists are engaged in criminal activity, Far from it, Some of the people I know who are Satanists are the most Moral, Law abiding people I know.

And why do all the satanic websites use pentacles and pagan symbolism for their own symbols?

Same reason we use them, because they fit a purpose, they hold some form of meaning to the group, ok it may be a twisted meaning from what was originally meant etc. like the Nazi version of the swastika. the use of the inverse pentagram by the church of Satan fits well with the goat head of Baphomet that is used in their sigil, the horns being drawn in the two points, then the ears in the next two and the snout in the lowest point. maybe that's over simplifying the answer but it's all I can think really, the symbols used have meaning for them.

A few weblinks to read through, BE Warned some articles are not for the feint hearted.

The Official Site of the Church Of Satan
The Temple Of Set Official Site
A Mirror of the ONA Official Site
An Expose article about the ONA
Society of The Dark Lilly a site with lots of articles on Left Hand Path groups.

More on Temple of Set

SET


The Heathen connection.

Dr Stephen Flowers / Edred Thorson, one of the leading figures in the development of modern Heathenism/Asatru especially in the USA and author of many books, Nine Doors to Midgard, Book of Troth, Runelore. etc is/was a long term member of To S. He stepped down from leadership of The Ring of Troth in 1992 following prepressure from other groups over his involvement in ToS.

Some of his Asatru writings seem to reflect to the Setian way.

dav

sounds a bit too scary for me (am serious here). am not going to read links just yet. but thanks for the honesty herne.

fizzy

Just want to clarify that I am not a Satanist, in case people were wondering, yes it is something I looked into some 10 or more years ago but never did get into the more sinsiter side and groups, I was attracted to LaVeyan Satanism for a while, enough to go and buy the books he wrote which do have some interesting and thought provoking stuff in them. I certainly do not advocate any of the more sinister stuff that is in the articles I posted links to, and would not practice them myself.

I can understand you saying it's a bit too scary for you Fizzy, believe me.

frm Herneoak's post:-> "And why do all the satanic websites use pentacles and pagan symbolism for their own symbols?

Same reason we use them, because they fit a purpose, they hold some form of meaning to the group, ok it may be a twisted meaning from what was originally meant etc. like the Nazi version of the swastika. the use of the inverse pentagram by the church of Satan fits well with the goat head of Baphomet that is used in their sigil, the horns being drawn in the two points, then the ears in the next two and the snout in the lowest point. maybe that's over simplifying the answer but it's all I can think really, the symbols used have meaning for them. "

Re the above, I am sure there is one "Dark Order" of Witchcraft that also uses this symbol - I have seen it on their website a while back.
Does this imply that they are Satanists too? Or would it just be purely coincidental?
Anyone know?

oh, I didn't think you were satanist herne, I meant thanks for being so honest about your previous interest and knowledge about it.

fizzy

No Idea on that one really, They could be but then again it could just be coincidental or maybe they use the symbol to differentiate the fact they practice a "darker" form of witchcraft. Maybe Baphomet is who they "worship". or they are useing the symbol to represent the horned God since Baphomet can be seen as a representation of such.

The baphomet sigil has been around for a couple of hundred years in one form or another but the most common seen one today is the CoS version which is copyrighted and cannot be legally reproduced.


CoS Version. the hebrew letters spelling out (from lowest point counter clockwise) Lamed, Va, Yod, Teth, Nun - LVYTN - Leviathan.

Anton LaVey explained the pentagram as signifying the following Two points upwards being an attack on heaven, the three points down being a denial of the Trinity.

Thanks Herneoak! The use of it for the Horned God is what I'd thought too.

It's too much for me too...
I'd like to read the links but I know I'll only get scared.
Can I ask one question though Herne: Surely in order to be satanist one has to be a christian too, up to a point? I mean what's the point in worshipping something that is a negation of another beleif if you don't believe in the thing that's being negated?
Badgers Moon
xx

I can see what you mean, but for those who do worship a literal Satan I guess they are the reverse of Christians, seeing Christ as the bad guy and Satan just having a bad rep. So no they are not Christians, in the same way a Christian is not a Satanist.

From what I've heard, at least some forms of satanism worship satan as a god completly outside of judeo-christian history, the idea being that he was a deity long before he was taken up as the bad guy to the christian god. I've read sites about satanists where they're not much different from other pagans, except that they specifically say that they don't follow "harm none", as they feel that hexing and cursing can be necessary and right.

I must say the stuff I've read here is very different from other things I've seen of satanism. I guess you know more about it than I do, but maybe there are different groups of people who all refer to themselves as satanists?

kristofski x

There are so many different groups claiming to be Satanists, and just about as many different definitions of the practices/beliefs of those groups too. so it is no surprise that you have come across a different brand of Satanist that is mentioned above, though I have taken one of the extreme groups as an example alongside the more palatable Church of Satan.

I guess looking at it from that perspective its not much different from other religions in that its been demonised by Christianity.

The thing that concerns me about satanism is that in some streams of it, it seems to go along with rape, murder, etc.... not exactly healthy past times.

Historically, I'm of the impression that satanism is a somewhat schismic resurrection of old "Horned God" fertility rituals, in rebellion to Christianity's somewhat schismic moral attitudes towards sex. Mind you, the old Horned God deities are as culturally diverse as those of the "Earth Mother". In essence the Horned God represented "primal impulse" as that sprout that breaks the seed of the Earth Mother. From there it evolved into a whole diasporal of cosmologies on this idea of continuity representing the whole. Of course there's scarcely a belief system in the world that doesn't have this fundamental concept at its basis. It is, after all, how we came into being.

surly if you don't believe in Christianity then you cant believe in Satanism as they go hand in hand - don't they?

Also what relationship is Satan to god? is it that Satan is another god??

I'm confused

In the Old Testament Satan worked for God - he was the Accuser in the Celestial Courts. He wasn't God's enemy (hence him and God having a bet about Job). There is no concept of The Devil as such in Judaism. In Islam, if I remember correctly, the devil is more of a minor irritant and a bit of a joke. He's not at all like Satan.

The figure of Satan is a Christian invention, probably taken from various traditions and gods/spirits/etc and added to over the centuries. Originally he was seen as a very beautiful creature (as befits an angel - even a fallen one) but as the centuries rolled by he became the horned red fella with a pitch fork and tail.

As far as I was aware Satan, or Lucifer, was an angel as you say. And I agree that he wasn't an "evil" entity as some people see. It seems christians who have turned him into Mr Bady.

I wonder why?
Is this so they have a scapegoat for their own human frailties and weaknesses?
Something/one to blame when things don't go their way?

And why did the imagery change from an angel to a red horned creature with a pitchfork?

I can sort of understand the horned figure, as that would demonise "heathen" religions. But the pitchfork.... i'm lost.

He he! Well, think about the Old Religion in Britain. The pitchfork shape should then begin to make sense - reinvention of old symbols was ever a favourite ploy of Xianity!
The colour red ditto. It symbolises blood, the hunt, life force, menstruation, moon cyclicity - and as such was considered a sacred, joyful, and POWERFUL colour. It also had to do with female power - NOT what a patriarchal religion wanted at all. So of course it too had to be given Xianised connotations of "EVULL"! [sic]

The Red bloke with tails etc was a mediæval development but I can't remember why. I did read a theory that the pitchfork was actually taken from Poseidon's trident, but again, a little hazy on the details now.

I believe a lot of scholars dismiss Lucifer as the devil altogether now. Lucifer was mentioned in one of the Psalms and equates to the Morning Star (Venus). As far as I can remember Lucifer wasn't equated to any devil like figure.

Satan (also known possibly as Sataniel in the Old Testament Apocryphal stories) wasn't a bad figure. Just doing his job!