So we have the topics which go " do we admit we are pagan at work?" and so on BUT how many of us think it is right that we should have festival/ sabbat days off as part of our path ? My colleague at work is Jewish and will be having time off to attend the synagogue next week.

Should we be entitled to the same consideration as a set of people with a beliefs and celebrations? and would we EVER reach that stage of recognition by government and employers?

What do you think?

" Christians have long had it easy in terms of being able to combine work with religious observance. Sundays, Christmas, Easter - the important days in the Christian calendar are free for the majority to do as they will. Now it's time for employees to make more allowances for those of other faiths as well. From December 2, new legislation comes into effect in the UK which formalises and extends the rights of employees of any faith to take time off work for religious observance. It could be an entire day to celebrate the Muslim festival Eid, for example, or 10 minutes at particular times of the day to pray. Druids could even take time off to mark the summer solstice.
The Employment Equality (Religion or Belief) Regulations 2003 prohibit direct and indirect discrimination on the grounds of religion or belief. There is no express right for employees to take time off for religious purposes, as employers do not have to grant requests if they conflict with operational needs, but employers do risk liability for direct discrimination if they refuse to grant leave because of the employee's religion or belief. They also risk charges of indirect discrimination if they have company rules or practices that are disadvantageous to employees of a particular religion or belief and which cannot be justified for other reasons.

A central part of the regulations is the broad definition of what constitutes a religion or belief. It naturally encompasses those who define themselves as Muslim, Protestant, Roman Catholic, Jehovah's Witness, Mormon, Sikh, Rastafarian and as members of other "official" religions, but it also includes beliefs such as druidism, pacifism, veganism, Scientology, atheism and agnosticism.

What the regulations are saying, in effect, is that all deeply held beliefs need to be taken seriously and, wherever possible, work should not prevent people from practising what they believe in. "It is very heavily value-laden and a key part of the legislation is that you and I can almost invent our own personalised belief system," says Dianah Worman, adviser on diversity at the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development. "It's as wide-ranging as that and there is no way we could have a total list."

According to Makbool Javaid, employment partner at law firm DLA, a religion or belief is something that has three essential components: collective worship, a clear belief system and a profound belief affecting a person's way of life or view of the world. Javaid does not anticipate many problems with the regulations, although he thinks a potential flashpoint area could be when an employer does not believe that a particular religion or belief is valid. This would, of course, be more of an issue with unconventional beliefs such as paganism or Satanism. "Problems could arise in areas where employers take the view that a religion is not a religion but something else, such as a cult," he says. " Guardian 2003.

Food for thought?

also

http://www.workplacespirituality.info/Paga...eWorkplace.html

Interesting topic Rhi. Speaking for myself, I don't really take time off to celebrate the sabbats (maybe the day after, to recover from celebrating them), but I don't see why pagans shouldn't have this opportunity rather than using up yet another annual leave day to do so. Satanists only really celebrate one day, (if they are LaVey Satanists, if my reading of the Satanic bible is right) and that is their birthday - and who wouldn't want to have their birthday off work anyway?

I may be wrong but I thought you had to use your annual leave to take the time off.

I'm a bit put out that veganism is included as an example of the beliefs they're talking about yet Paganism (Druidry excepted) appears to be borderline! What special days do vegans celebrate anyway???

the assumption I made from this is that the religious days allowance is in additional to annual leave. I could of course be wrong. If you want to use annual leave up for it then your employer really doesn't need to know what it's for, and makes a mockery of the religious equality thing.

Been thinking about this recently too in view of the fact that I'm booking time off for Yule and so on...

I think we SHOULD be allowed to take time off if we want it to celebrate our religious festivals - in the same way that is accorded to other religions/beliefs. However... that means though that I would accept that as a non-christian, I could not expect to have those days in addition to the christian holidays - it would hardly be fair would it? As for how that would work in practice, I have no idea - working in government, the holidays are building holidays as well, so I don't think it'd go down well having to open up the building, get security staff in etc, just for me to come in and work a day as a non-christian. And I suppose too (just working this through in my head!) - how would you ensure fairness between religions to ensure that no-one was claiming festivals every week that required time off.

I think at the end of the day the system where I am works pretty well - I can take the time off as a holiday from my annual leave entitlement, and if there are any issues over staff cover etc, I can state that it's for my religious beliefs and know that the leave will be granted without question.

I'd like to, I don't see why we shouldn't be entitled to the time off. But on my current contract I have to take bank holidays as annual leave - which I onky discovered with the last bank holiday, wasn't particulary happy about it althought the extra cash was useful this week - so I guess any religious days would come under the same banner for me.

At college I couldn't justify taking the time off, and once I've done the journalism course and (hopefully) have a job in journalism I'm not really gonna be able to do it then. I tend to do something in the evening and then have a proper celebration over the weekend nearest to it.

My employer can refuse to allow annual leave if the timing would be inconvenient. I thought perhaps this legislation was designed to overule the employer in cases of religious activities. If this isn't the case then I plan to take off every sabbat, new moon and full moon

The current legislation is that you are allowed time off for religious festivals but that it needs to come out of your Annual Leave allowance. (Christmas has a few Bank Holidays around it, but other days off come off the annual leave entitlement.)

If an employer had a large proportion of, say, Muslims, working for them, it would not be reasonable to expect the employer to give them all a holy day off, so that would need to be done on some sort of lots or first come basis. Or it may be that the employer decides to shut up shop completely for that day, as happens over the Christmas period, and oblige people to use up their Annual Leave.

I have heard of some employers giving people additional days off for religious festivals, although an atheist could then claim discrimination. The new legislation also says that the beliefs of atheists should also be taken into account, and vegeterianism is also covered by the new legislation - a vegetarian can request a non-meat shelf in a fridge for storing packed lunches!

Obviously it's a lot harder for people who have set holidays, such as teachers, to get time off for specific festivals.

I've always found employers to be very flexible and have never had a problem with taking time off.

bb
Rhiannon

Why would atheists need time off work for religious purposes?

Maybe they do holiday ignoring... like taking a religious day off then pretending it's not happening? Perhaps they have a flask of weak lemon drink for the occassion!

It's something to be borne in mind, definitely - that said, I usually celebrate either before work, or more usually, after. That way I'm not rushed and I can get some time on my own. However, having a day off for religious purposes could obviate the need to squish a ritual in at one end of the day or other, so it'll be something I'll be studying in depth and in conjunction with the work policies, to see how it would/wouldn't work. The NHS don't tend to be very accomodating when it comes to staff!

Rhiannon is absolutely correct in what she has said, if you have used all of your annual leave you are can take the day off as unpaid leave, your employer must have a very good reason for not allowing you a day off for religious purposes.

The ACAS document on religious discrimination in the work place is well worth having to hand if you feel that you are going to have a problem. I know a couple of people who are using the ACAS document against managers or department heads who have refused to recognize their religious beliefs as valid.

Storm Raven

The legislation is about more than just having time off for religious purposes - it also covers working conditions. For instance, if an atheist was working between two evangelical Baptists, then they could ask to be moved to a different work area because of their (non)beliefs.

bb
Rhiannon

I'm not so sure about this, substitute Muslim for 'evangelical baptist' and that attitude would be racist. The Baptists (who believe it is their duty to save) should be the ones discriminated against as their belief is active (to pester) rather than passive (not to be pestered) - a good question for an employment law exam.

bb
Boris

Yeah but Rhiannon but then isn't that bordering on discrimination? This is all getting a bit serious now

Boris practical implenentation of the rules is that the evangelical baptists are not allowed to try and convert the atheist at work because then they are discriminating against his religious beliefs. Being a muslim is not a matter of being a member of a tribe or race, butt is a religion, people of all different racial types are muslim so it would not be racist.

Storm Raven

In an ideal world I think people should be allowed time off for religious festivals, but in practise this is very hard. I certainly do not think people should be paid if they choose to be off work. Why should an employer pay wages when they are getting no work in return? This would be especially hard for a small business employing one or two people.

As a pagan I think one should be pragmatic about it. Most festivals are well suited to evenings which make it easier for some of us. Others fall within set Christian or bank holidays (Yule or Beltain). Pagans have always had to be practical about things and most employers would accomadate if possible.

mike

Fortuna, it is not an ideal world and we are allowed time off for our religious festivals by law now, but it comes out of our annual leave entitlement or if that has already been used you negotiate with your boss about taking unpaid leave. I know how hard it is for small businesses as I work in one.

Storm Raven

I usually take the time off as leave.Always have done.
I work with christians and they dont think it's necerssary to take extra days off for religious holidays and if they did rhey'd take it as leave as well.
So nobody where I work is fussing over it and I dont mind using my leave if I want a special day off.

when i did work, yes they did, or they just thought i was weird, lucky i worked shifts and got to choose when i wanted a day off.
i think they gathered that something was up because i was the only one who didnt mind working the xmas period. and i never gave xmas cards.
oh know sorry that has nothing to do with being a pagan, it was because i was tight, i didnt understand why id want to send a card to someone who for the most of the year i wanted to kill.

I think it works both ways, for example if we want our pagan days off then surely they could expect us to work the xtian holidays like xmas, boxing day, good friday, easter monday (I know some people do anyway like my other half).

I personally have not yet "come out" about being pagan in my job (haven't been there a month yet ) plus apparently the solicitor I work with is a "good catholic woman" doesn't drink, smoke so somehow me thinks it wouldn't go down too well

I like having the xtian holidays off because I spend it with my family and Helgi's family.