Me again.

I was watching a programme the other day on Discovery Civiliations ( I know someone has to, lol) and I saw a programme about a woman that was possessed by a demon.
My question is this: Is it possible for a pagan to be possessed?
The only people that I ever hear of being possessed are Catholics. Do you have to be Christian to be possessed by a demon?
As a Witch, I don't believe in the Devil or Hell so does that mean that I'm safe, so to speak?
I just wondered what you guys thought.

BB Araminta. xx

I have never seen any Pagan become possessed unless that was their full intention, but by "demons", well that's a matter of interpretation. For instance the Hamatsas of the Kwakiutl tribes use possession to exalt and appease their spirits through elaborate purification rituals and dance. Tlingit spirit men use possession to acquire powers from "supernaturals". I have known the odd Wiccan though, who went stark raving mad, for getting into things deeper than they were capable of reckoning with.

I think lots of cultures have their 'evil' spirits that can enter a mortal persons body and take over it. I don't think it is restricted to Christianity. Many ancient clutures believed that mental and physical disease were caused by demons and priests would offer prayers to exerocise the evil spirits. I think today, that anyone who works with spirits would be very aware that it is important to take precautions to prevent being left open to malign spirit entities.

Q

Lot of sense in what Quas and Queenie are saying.

I dont think that there is such a thing as "demonic" posession. Not unless you are using the word demonic as an adjective to mean negative or something.

Working with spirits is something I have been getitng more involved in over the last year or two. There are plenty of negative, angry, pissed off energies out there and certinaly it is possible for them to influence you or attach themselves to you so like Quas said, you REALLY need to know what you are doing and what your limits are.

But like Quas, I've never seen a pagan be "posessed" unless they meant to and were in full control of the situation.

Not something I've done myself, not something I intend to do being as I dont really pick up on energies in that particular way. Im more... empathetic.. emotions etc as opposed to "lets house a spirit for a while and see what it has to say for itself!"

Thanks guys, you've really helped. Not that I'm going to meddle with the spirit world, I'll leave that to the professionals, but you've eased my mind. Thanks.

BB Araminta. xx

Another point of view. Don't believe in demons, don't believe its at all possible to be 'possessed', its all in the mind. The only evil entitys out there are human and some of them can't get any more evil than they are.

I know that you are very experienced in your path. Im not questioning that for a moment, you comment just mede me curious.

Do you cast spells.. do workings.. work with magick.. whatever you like to call it.

If you do, how does that work for you exactly? I mean, do you move energies to create what you need? Do you work with energy balance?

I agree with what you mean about "evil entities" but Im wondering if that includes for you negative energy? You seem to suggest that it does, as both Quas and I have already said that we dont believe in "demons" in the sense that araminta defined them.

Working with magic is nothing to do with being possessed by demons or indeed believing in them. Magic as far as I am concerned is using the life force of this planet which 99.9% of people work with in some way every day.
6 days out of 7, I work to put some energy back into the world, to do what I can for as many people as possible, sorry, that sounds pompous..... I have 3 voluntary jobs and I run the membership of a pagan group, I also organise fun stuff workshops for families.
I firmly believe that evil spirits /demons or whatever you want to call them are the product of imagination and I'll reiterate that evil is something invented and re-invented by the human race.

Product of the imagination? So is causality, if you want to look at it that way. So who or what's imagination are we talking about here?

I have a friend who is Hindu, and the other weekend she came over with her husband for dinner.
She comes from Malaysia, and we were talking about the differences in our childhood and such.
She was telling us about when she and her cousins would go up to some trees on a mountain and mess around up there. When they come home, they MUST wash their feet before going inside if it is after dark to wash away any evil spirit. On this one occassion, one of her cousins didn't wash her feet and they had a terrible 3 nights of what she called "demon possession". She even admits that if it wasn't for the fact that the house was full of people and they can each say to one antoher that it happened, she wouldn't believe it herself and thin of it as a strange dream. Her cousin knew it was happening and was terrified when she came out of each episode, screaming that it was outside the house and running around, and then it would come back into her.
After her mum leading everyone in prayers and chanting, they took her to a preist who marked her cousin and her on the head with a guarding mark. She said she could feel it burning. They took to her to a river and made her stand in it, and they all saw a black shadow come away and go with the water.

I never believed in Demons as such, but after hearing her story it does make you wonder, and I can't believe that a house full of people were imagining it either.

gina
xxx

Hmm yes, makes me realize that this topic actually boils down to two diametric possibilities. Possession or Obsession? Interesting polarity. Myself, I'm possessed by a trickster that actually runs in the family. Wouldn't go anywhere without it. As for obsession, what the hell, I'm a hedonist.

I would agree with you completely on the point that I have highlighted and I think that you misunderstand my question. Im not saying that magick has anything to do with posession. Im saying that magick works with energy, no matter what way you look at it there is positive energy as well as negative energy.

You say the life force of this planet are the energies you work with, do you also mean the universal forces or do you soley work with the planets life force? And if so, could you explaine what you mean by "life force"? Do you mean the energies that are present in everything rocks, trees, rivers etc etc or do you mean something different?

How do you create balance in what you do? Do you work with balance? What im trying (very badly I must admit).. to find out is.. ok...

Lets say someone came to you and asked you to help them with their abusive husband. Say you chose to bind him. How would you do that? Do you bind his energies? It would be fair to say that if so.. some of the energy from his is going to be negative. How do you balance that?

Have you never had to cleanse negative energies from a person or place?

Also.. Im a little confused. You dont believe in sprits, but you work with the "life force" of the planet. What is the difference?

As far as evil is concerned, spirits or otherwise is something that I too don't believe in as I think evil is strictly a human product. Was there evil when no man was on earth yet?

I believe in spirit energy, which can either be postivie or negative and the trick is to find a balance between the two. I believe these to be a natural product of Earth and the Cosmos actually.

Nature is not evil, yet it can be destructive, but not with an intent of being destructive and dealing with it requires people to get out of the way, and is balanced by the calm following the storm. Forest fires, those started say by lightening or humans, are distructive, but nature uses the seeds in certain trees that explode upon high heat, which spread the seeds creating new growth. There is always an inherent balance in nature and within the earth. It's man's interference that has upset this balance.

If someone came to me and asked for help with an abusive husband I would find the number for the nearest womens shelter for her. I would never use magic to deal with that sort of situation, neither do I do love spells or in fact any other kind of spells for people. If asked I would give someone the spell and a list of ingredients and explain how to do it themselves, but never for something that can be dealt with without magic, for me magic is a last resort and has a cost and a consequence.
Yes, I do believe in balance, I like to think I give back what I can and take as little as I can. As I said I work with the energies of the planet, I don't believe in 'spirits' apart from the fact that everyone has a life force or 'spirit' of their own. I don't believe in 'spirits' of the dead, ghosts, werewolves, vampires or demons, they are invented by humans to frighten weaker humans.
As for the Hindu version Gorgana, religious conditioning can take many forms and anyone can be convinced of anything if they are indoctrinated in the right way.
I don't expect anyone else to feel or think the same way as I do, you are all free to believe in what you want, I just don't believe in demons or possession, I think it was probably a poor explanation for mental illness before the invention of psychiatrists!!

Afraid I'd also be offering practical help plus W's Aid, as I would not fancy doing anything which, by association, bound me into an abuser.
Not all people are able or confident enough to achieve a working as such, but for those a simple candle ritual can help. For others, usually the answer lies within themselves - usually one can help another to arrive at their OWN solutions to theri own problems. It's called counselling.
The problem with "performing"spells for others is that you are literally "performing" - is that really what Witches do?

from my own limited experience energy could be called a spirit. but there are many things I don't understand. Upto press I have believed that this spirit is neither evil or good. My reactions seem to range from being at ease to totally freaked out, feeling afraid. I can sense the spirit of woodlands and thats good but in other places this 'spirit' freaks me out. (see I am not sure that this is the same spirit as used here - but rather ghost spirit - and even that could be a misunderstanding due to my own fearfulness and maybe what I am sensing is a different side of this energy spirit rather than a ghost).

With regard to consequences and costs of doing magic. umm. I haven't done alot of magic but when I have its worked and it feels like I am drawing energy closer to me. In fact its the same feeling I get when I am in woods specifically, I find it reassuring - moorland feels a little different much freer, but more solitary, not emotionally cold but uncomplicated. So far I am not aware of there being any costs or consequences.

I have read about these costs/consequences ie taking it out of health because of lack of balancing between give and take. but from personal experience I don't have a clue as to what writers are referring to.

with regard to demonic possession - why is it that xians see every possession as being a demon? (or am I wrong here.) and pagans find possession useful in some way? (as far as I know I have never been possessed - but I have been told that spirits/guardian angels are around me and that sometimes they communicate with me but in very subtle ways (okay sometimes not subtle now that I think about it) which could be easily ignored or be explained as persons own sense of personal agency guiding their actions).

From what I have read about pagan posession the person seems to control/work with the 'spirit' but with xians its the demon who 'takes over'. I think there may be some psychological differences here (perhaps xians are more fearful of the unknown) maybe pagans because of their beliefs find this less frightening (okay not all - cos I am a big scaredy cat sometimes.)

okay I've babbled enough. am finding this thread very interesting.

fizzy

Naturally you take every other route before using magick.

I was talking hypothetically. I was using an example to try and understand what you mean.

I dont quite know how else to express it.. so, Im going to figure that Im not going to get an answer I can understand. No-ones fault by the way.. Im not being bitchy here, my problem not yours.

Tas..

Performing? Not quite sure I follow what you mean. How do you work out that doing a working for someone is performing? I dont know if you are a witch or not Tas. When I say that I dont mean (again) it in a negative form. Many people use magick within their paths but that doesnt necessarily mean they are a witch. Do you class yourself as one? If so. What do you use magick for?

I see my magick as something of a gift. Granted, theres been a lot of hard graft involved to become adept at it, but it seems a rather useless thing to have if you dont use it and I consider myself to be a pretty responsible person.
I ALWAYS make sure that all other options have been used before resorting to it.
I never do workings for love or some such nonsense and I would never just give a lits of ingrediants and some directions to someone and say.. "knock yerself out". To me that is an utterly irresponsible way to behave. Sorry Ari.

"Perform" as in: carry out, accomplish (a task, action or function) to do something to a specified standard. <-- crafting. As in the craft of the witch etc.

Occasionally some folk "perform" spells/rituals in the sense that they are almost putting on a staged performance - interesting & entertaining maybe, but not really what true magic is all about - again, only my viewpoint here.

And agreed; covering one's options is a MUST before making the decision to perform any working.

Ok.. read what you mean by perform.. still not getting what you mean though. Do I perform spells for people? If the definition is "carry out a task" then yes. I do. If you mean "perform" as in acting monkey then no.. I dont.

Is it what witches do? Um... yes. Certiainly as a Witch yes. Not ritual magick witches... as a practical, everyday, witch.. yes. Maybe Im misunderstanding you hon.. but it seems like a very bizarre question.

Eh? Not bizarre at all - quite straightforward (or so I thought) the first mention of "performing" was in inverted commas to draw attention to the fact it was tongue in cheek, ie it refers to the stagey performance put on by some self styled practitioners.
The other kind, the actual performing (quietly) of an act etc is the real Mackoy, works a treat, solves things etc. And is hopefully - as you stated - undertaken only AFTER due consideration.
(Whew, wee brain now aching! )
And yes, maybe you did misunderstand!

OK. I just didnt understand the question. "is that really what witches do?" Im not quite sure I get you... but sure.. getting old and brain cells aint what they used to be.

{didnt understand the question. "is that really what witches do?" }

Well, obviously NOT - as I keep trying to explain!
REAL Witches don't "PUT ON" a "performance" -i.e. of the all singing all dancing sparkly lights and drumrolls variety.
(Sheesh! As if!)

Buggrit! That was the only bit I wanted to learn...

Someone asked the question earlier if evil was on the earth before man got here. I never thought of it like that before.
Apart from the theory of mankind being evil in and of itself, I'm coming round to the idea that there are "spirits" both "good" and "bad" (call 'em what you like) which are drawn to mankind, rather like the Dungeon Dimensions. I don't imagine the spirits had much to do before mankind stood up and took his first wobbly steps. (Not much point in haunting brontosauruses)
So either way, no, I guess there wasn't much evil in the world before mankind.
Badger's Moon
xx

If anyone I know asked me for a spell it would be because they know in general what they want and what they're doing, I did not mean I would give the knowledge and makings of a spell to a complete beginner, never!!! I know people who do magic for others, but I have always felt that really you need to do it for yourself or the 'magic' is watered down somewhat. I am never irresponsible in my path or with anyone's feelings or safety.

Sorry Ari. I misunderstood what you meant there.

I seem to be doing a lot of that recently!



I have to say I disagree with this point tho. I dont really see the point in doing magick only for me. I dont think its what a Witch is for. I suppose you could say it all depends on the path you are on... but Im not sure I believe that.

**edited to say**

Ari, Ive just taken a wee look at your profile. You say you are a hedgewitch. Now Im really confused. I dont get it how can you be a hedgewitch and NOT do stuff for others? And if you are on a shamanic hedge path, how can you not believe in spirits?

I wouldn't call it 'possession', but...

There are times in my practice that I open myself to the voices of the dispossessed (ironic, huh?), the angry, the confused and the dead (sometimes a being is all of these things, as you all know). It is sometimes described as 'breathing in the vapours' of these beings, to achieve a higher awareness, so that we (as shaman) can connect with their world, however sordid or tortured it may be. We accept this into ourselves despite our reservations, because we need to feel what these spirits feel and we need to *understand* their world. Have I ever been possessed? Well, probably so. But I had helpers and people around me who were able to ease the pain of it. At times it can be joyful, almost ecstatic, but it remains, for me, the emotions and feelings of another being- never something that *I* need to act on. I think of myself as a channeller, not an instrument or weapon.

And I never feel guilt about what I hear.

I'm glad you pointed this out Etayne, as it does elaborate on what I mentioned in my first reply to this thread. Understanding the integrity of one's being, gives your instincts a clear line of communication. Indeed "guilt" or uncertain fear, not only impedes this but inclines to attract predators in any form. Instinct is Nature's universal web of communication, be it biological, material or etherial. This is why animals seem more keenly aware of a "presence" than your average human.

Now it's time for ME to be confused Xalle!
Maybe I need clarification about the meaning of the word "hedgewitch" and all that this entails, but where does it say one of these HAS to "do stuff for others"?
Also where on earth does the reference to "a shamanic hedge path" come into things?

Linkie

Take a look at this thread and read herne's post. Pretty much sums up hedgewitchery.

THEN ask me how I dont understand how you can be a hedgewitch and NOT do for folks.

Ah - THAT explains it! Herneoak on Rae Beth, plus of course his own take on the subject. For a minute there I was wondering if there was some sort of invisible writing on Arianrod's profile, and that I'd missed something glaringly fundamental!
Ta fer that.

Nay bother.

This is too good for the Snug

Moving it to General Paganism.

I know what you mean Etayne but for me at the moment I'm not in control of these. They come and they go however I don't feel as though I am in anyway being possessed by them, just that I'm 'tuning in' to a particular wavelength but without knowing I'm doing it until I hear them. Of course I could just be going mental . The other annoying thing for me at the moment is that I can't actually tune one of the voices in enough to hear what they're saying properly. It's just a few voices all at the same time and making it hard to understand what they're trying to say. Occasionally one of them will be strong enough for me to hear clearly. I'd love to know how to control this better. (yeah I know...meds will help and all that! Don't worry guys, I'm spending a lot of time at the moment questioning my sanity.)

As for Possession - it's got a hell of a lot of bad press and who says its just about demons? Generally speaking possession is either voluntary or involuntary.

Some religions are possessory faiths, Korean Shamanism for example (I've been having a good old look into this one seeing as I'm moving there in 3 week or so ), the would be Shaman is tormented by spirits for years on end, have all manner of physical ailments that prove to be incurable, they lose their appetites, they don't sleep much, they totally lose their grip on this reality as realities blend for them - the only cure for them is a type of ritual called a Naerim-kut/gut (k and g are the same letter in Korean so the word is usually transliterated either or) in which the Shaman undergoes a difficult ritual in which she will dance for several hours through several different possessions by various spirits. At the climax of the ritual she'll(because male Shamans are something of a rarity) dance on sharp knife blades while possessed. I'm sure Crow could fill you in on the whole being ridden by Orixas thing in some of the African traditions (sorry about the Brazilian spelling - only really know about Candomble).

A few years ago while doing a sceance at uni, my dead grandmother 'stepped in', it was weird, very bizarre and while I was still 'there', it was almost like watching myself but not being in control. However I didn't feel as though I was being completely taken over - just sharing.


As for demonic possession in the traditional sense and possesion of an involuntary nature - whether you believe in the devil and demons or not, it's a very interesting topic and one that shouldn't just consigned to being 'something Christian' and therefore to be put on the 'ignore' pile. For example, Plato described different grades of demons, types of possession and ways of curing possession in his 'Republic'. Plato was very definitely what one would call a Pagan too!! It's not just about demons either - for example in Japan a common negative possessing force is the Fox spirit. According to Robbins' encyclopaedia of Demonology and Witchcraft, there are 3 typical manifestations of involuntary possession.



In the Christian tradition - the Devil can initiate possession (albeit with God's permission - the bastard!!), however Demonologists from the Middle ages generally credited a witch with causing the possession. There have also been recorded group epidemics of possession - most likely attributable to group hysteria and funnily enough, quite a lot of the cases I've read have involved groups of nuns...(more evidence for my theory that nuns are evil!).

As for curing possession - it is my opinion that the worst thing anyone could do is to organise an exorcism, this is an opinion shared by Guy Playfair (investigator in the Enfield Poltergeist case and 'The Flying Cow' about Umbanda, Candomble and Spiritism) and Marc Cramer (author of 'The Devil within') who actually said that exorcism may be 'deliverance unto evil'.

I actually came across a woman who claimed she'd been exorcised (or delivered as she put it) somewhere down in London - from what I could tell from what she told me of the experience, the ritual provided the psychological transformation necessary for her to move on with her life. I do think that there's a largely psychological aspect to possession. We haven't got a clue what the majority of the human mind can do. Just look at poltergeist phenomena and the theory that the minds of pubescent teens can telekinetically cause the phenomena!

I also don't buy the POV that if you don't believe in something then it'll be irrelavent to you. If you go off the idea that believe creates reality then there's many many years of many many people believing in devils and demons - you sticking your fingers in your ears and saying that they don't exist for you and ergo it's all irrelevant is just daft. It doesn't change the thing where you still have these things floating about and doing just what people believe them to. Xalle, you mentioned negative energies - maybe calling them demons and devils is just giving them a 'face' a name and an M.O?? Belief over centuries just reinforces that.

I've had negative beings try to enter me before now and I've fought my best to keep them out. One time that sticks to mind - I could actually feel these icy sharp finger nails pushing into the skin of my back and passing my skin. Really really creepy.

eeeeeeeeeeekkkkkkk lol! nah i dont believe in such

Els.

*nods* I completely agree with what you are saying about energies being given a name. Dont have a problem with that at all.

I also want to say well done. Brilliantly put response. Dont think theres any of it I disagree with! I also Know what you and Et mean about the posession. I havent quite experienced it in the same way you tow have.. but yeah.

I must say there are some cracking debates on here at the moment!

Why thank you kind Xalle

As you can probably tell, I'm quite interested in Possession as a topic

Very interesting yeah.

I was wondering if you dont mind me asking on here, is it something that you are actively trying to work with at the moment?

Picking up on energies is something Ive always done, empathetic more than anythine else. Ive never really tried to push it to see just what happens. No other reason than just getting the right time and place to do it. I was considering looking into it more somtime this year (its ona schedule with so MANY other things lol). Ive been on what I suppose some would call "ghost hunts" .. except that brings cheesey images of Most Haunted to mind and this couldnt be more different. I seem to pick up quite easily when it comes to emotions and through that I can pick up "entities" but have never experienced anything like posession as you discribed it.

Would you care to share a little more of your experiences or would you rather do this through PM?

Are you talking to me?!

I'd prefer to take this to PM

I like you don't believe in the devil or hell...as christians see it but I think there has to be bad when there is good right...i mean nothing is perfect lol it never is.
As for posession though...there might be some bad spirits but why would they be intrested in a human? unless that human done something to them of course...so maybe, lol...this topic has made me think.

Or maybe if they'd dabbled with the wrong stuff and left themselves open to it?

Or maybe they want to experience physical sensation again? The pleasures of eating, drinking, alcohol, sex.....