Hey guys!

I was just asked if there was a difference between American & UK Pagans/Wiccans & how the UK see it.
I haven't a clue how to respond!!

I admit I've found Americans to be alot more serious & don't really have much of a sense of humour when it comes to belief systems but besides from that I've not noticed anything else.

Have you guys come across any differences?

As for how UK society see Paganism/Wiccan I've only really had one negative response but that was more to do with how I was dressed (I'm "Goth").
Everyone else I've met have been been respectful & curious (well except the born again Christian that I had a few run ins with!)

How do you guys believe The UK see Paganism/Wicca?
Do you think they're tolerant? Disrespectful? Not bothered?

BB
Sootica
xXxXxXx

I have a few Pagans friends in the states and they seem pretty cool *shrugs*

TD.x.

There is a HUGE difference between American & UK Pagans/Wiccans & how the UK see it. In the main because America has completely re-written Wicca and turned it into something totally unrecognisable and extremely disrespectful to those who actually started it. Self initation for a start, not to mention all the new types of 'wicca'.

Actually what gets me is the complete misunderstanding that all witches are w/Wiccans. Utter rubbish. W/wiccans are witches but most witches are not W/wiccans. And the worst offenders for the misunderstandings are the pagans and wiccans themselves not those who aren't of that path.

And another appalling misunderstanding from all round is that a hedgewitch is a solitary wiccan, folk couldn't be more wrong.

Err, well you did ask It's a huge bug bear of mine, the misunderstandings that blight us all and tar us all with the same brush.

*Chuckle* someone touch a nerve there weatherwitch

What books on paganism tend to say about American pagans is that they are more likely to mix their practice with political activism than Brits are. But I'm Swedish, so I wouldn't know. However, the Reclaiming Witches (Starhawk and her following) in America would probably be an example of this viewpoint...

...and I agree with weatherwitch's post as well. That is a very good point!

If it's relevent and if it's not i'll start a new post on it.

Could someone explain the differenece between "wiccan" small w and Wiccan big w? As Im slightly confused

I don't know if in England there is any difference. But personally (in discussions on forums etc) I use wiccan with a lower case when I'm talking about solitary, not initiated people who define themselves as being wiccans and Wiccan when it's about initiated coven based Wiccans. This has nothing to do with hierarchy or anything like that. I only use it to clarify what I'm actually talking about. And I should also add that this is what I do in Swedish forums mainly. It would be interesting to see what English people reply to this question. Maybe a topic for new thread, though?

My own observation is that many of the the American Pagans I've met online and in real life have a very... homogenised... outlook on Paganism.

Not that many Polytheists and a lot of "we all come from the Goddess". When I was in Salem a couple of years ago I was in one of the witchy shops and overheard a customer applying for a vacant shop-assistant post. She said that she was a Druid and the manageress gaily replied "well, it's all the same thing isn't it? Same Goddess!"

It seems to be a much more feminist movement over there.

There also seems to be a real willingness to accept without question things like "The Burning Times", Triple Goddess authenticity, and how wicca is an ancient religion. And, of course, like WW said, the complete bastardisation of Gardner's Wicca. Although, I think Doreen Valiente wouldn't have minded so much, she did say that she didn't really have a problem with self-initiated wiccans.

Though, like Anath, I use the lower and upper case "W" to differentiate between coven-trained, initiated Wiccans and self-initiated ones. Even though I'm Scottish

Do any of the U.K.'s finest have a ritual offering of the marshmallow?

Don't know about marshmallow, but Paddy Slade does advocate calling the Quarters/invoking deities with chocolate rather than an athame...

Well, I once served Legba with Dolly Mixtures... does that count?

Maybe jelly babies would have been more appropriate!

No worries, the more point of views the better!
I wanted to give a balanced as possable answer so all thoughts, opinions & views are important!

BTW I do agree with alot of what you say......

I'm with weatherwitch on this by and large. Although not ALL Wiccans in the US are of the mix 'n' match ignorethe tradition variety. Also, US druidry appears to be very different to uk druidry. Much closer to uk trad Wicca in outlook.... some might say 'darker'.

The US has a different social history, the psyche is different. The whole civil war and crafting of the constitution thing affects how they see their lives. That leaks into how they see their spirituality too. So the politics creeps in quite a bit more. I think both UK pagans and US Pagans have things they could learn from each other though.

BB

Mike

I personally don't like generalising differences between the countries but I can tell you what my experience in the US has been. In 1996, I was initiated into a Gardnerian coven in the US. It all started when I went with a new friend to check out what she termed as a 'Wicca 101' class. It was basically set up in the Priest and Priestess's basement and we were given a home-made book with articles and excerpts from other books about all the aspects of Wicca, from its origins to its beliefs, information on how to do a basic ritual, meditate, set up an altar, all about the cardinal points, correspondences, symbols, male/female duality, gods and goddesses, tools of the Craft and so forth. I started going to these classes on a weekly basis and they were free. We even had homework!

What was soon discovered was all these people who came together in that basement from the first moment on would become the truest friends I could ever imagine. The Priestess and Priest initiated us into a new coven and we took part in many rituals, mostly for healing, some were just raising energy for prosperity, peace, inspiration...etc. The coven lasted about one and a half years because almost all of us started feeling like we wanted to walk a different path together. By this time, we all were friends and spending just about every evening together after work...I can't tell you how special is was. Over time, we held circle together whenever we felt the need, but it was so relaxed and yet amazingly powerful too. This circle of friends is still together and over time several more people have joined the bunch. I can't imagine that there are more friendly, open-hearted, wonderful people on this earth. We've danced and drummed all night around the fires in the woods of Tenessee and welcomed in the morning sun. We've been to festivals and shared our talents and knowledge to help those in need, those that were seeking or needing healing. When you meet anyone of my Spiral Clan brothers or sisters, you will feel at home. You will laugh. You WILL be hugged and cherished. I really miss them most of all since I have moved to the UK but we have a yahoo group to keep in constant touch with each other. Our little group has diverse beliefs now, all falling under the heading of paganism, and we have really aged gracefully as a group. I really don't see how anyone could consider their beliefs disrespectful, even the more eclectic of them who don't feel they have to stick to one specific unwavering tradition. Some people can only do what works for them. None of my friends or extended pagan family would get the concept of Witches and Wicca mixed up. I wouldn't say that they're all goddess-worshipers either. It's just that most of the good songs we learn just happen to be more associated with the goddesses because they're much more plentiful and/or easier to find. We have a good balance of male/female too. And I wouldn't say they're any more politically motivated than I see in the UK groups I've come across.

Since I've been here in the UK, I've met a few pagans, and have attended some gorsedds. But I can say it was a bit daunting at first. People here still seem to be a bit more reserved than I'm used to, and so being an introvert makes the whole process much more challenging. I'm still learning about paganism in the UK, so like I said, I can't really go into the differences too much. But I hope to get to know you all on this forum and maybe develop a better understanding of the beliefs and attitudes here.

That was a really interesting and well informed reply - thanks Hollyberry!

(And I hope you soon get together with people here who are on your wave length too )

here here

Quote HollyBerry :

In 1996, I was initiated into a Gardnerian coven in the US.

Unquote:


Hail HollyBerry .

Interesting!


Was this Initiation held by Raymond Buckland by any chance? Sorry for being a nosey git

In Frith.

wolverine.

Hehe...I didn't expect that question, but no, it wasn't.

Gotta love the frith.

Hols

General thoughts ... from having spent time both sides of the 'pond'.

UK Paganisum is still quite hidden, beyond University campus type groups many folks are totally solo and this way because everyone is so reserved that you just don't find out about the person next door. It seems to be gentler, quieter... not so in your face... in part because this country is such a mix of peoples ideas and faiths and generally quite tollerant, folks just don't see the need to get all ancy.
Yet in compleat contrast to this there is also a large well organised (well as well as you can every organise Pagans) deep rooted open movement/s. Although they can be a bit cliquey.
We have the advantage of the roots and history... both physical monuments such as various circles and henges, a vast wealth of archology, relevant to our land myths and ledgends and the origins of the Druid and Wiccan movements... folks like Gardner, Crowley et al.

The US is generally a lot louder and brash, it is more politisised... there is a much more mixed homogonised faith... it is a lot harder to distinguish Wiccan/wiccan/Heathan/Druid etc one from the other. It is like all the information from Europe has been put in a blender, a dash of native American added, some translations / continuations of myths like the burning times sprinkled on top and put on fast spin. There also seems to be more of a band wagon thing going on out there.
Again there is a contrast to this where people are litorally afraid of thier jobs/homes/lives as they are persicuted as Devil worshipers... seems to be more of a South thing. Thus they remain Very firmly in the broom closit.

Of casue there are always exceptions...

Be bright, be bold
Fillionous

Really? They do? I'd never noticed Seriously a perfect round up of my bugbear. Good to hear an opinion from one who's lived both sides of the pond Fillionous

Some of these opinions are perhaps affected by the fact that most of the people who have weighed in are in the UK and not the US, and thus tend to see more caricatures and broad generalizations about US Pagans and know more UK Pagans personally. While I'd say there very probably *are* some general differences, I must make mention of the fact that the US people you see preaching the Overreactive Blender philosophy are usually just the loud ones. There are a lot of them, and they are a lot of the reason I have great difficulty admitting to any sympathies in this spiritual direction to a lot of people. I'm not usually very covert about my beliefs, so it's quite odd that I am here. But, yes. I think you guys got Spiritualism more strongly and we got New Age, and somehow the effects of those two are analogous, yet very very different. Perhaps after lunch I'll figure out what I mean by this.

However, I've been slowly discovering that most of my friends are Pagans as well, whether they're very serious about it and perform all manner of appropriately-timed rituals, or whether the belief system on which they base their largely secular lives simply fits with it. And we have a pretty varied group. I do not, admittedly, know too much about the religious practices of the Druid Grove the members of which I am acquainted with, but they seem to be pretty specifically thataway inclined. I myself tend toward searching for a personal understanding of the world based on experience and intuition, which happens to cross over with Paganism in enough ways that, despite my personal distaste for anthropomorphized deities, I think it's a fair classification. I have casually known a lot of people involved in a lot of ways in Paganism in its varied forms, and I think we might just tend to be quieter about it in a lot of cases. A lot of lip service is given to Christianity over here, but in truth most people are pretty secular, and don't feel a need to publicize their religions so much. Those who do are going to be the ones who get into the news and post everywhere talking everyone's ears off, and, well, they're often enough just unhinged. Please don't take them as *all* of US Paganism. Allow for them of us what doesn't talk much, too.

I would say that the US population as a whole probably has less Respect For Tradition than the UK population. We simply don't have as much of it, and the nation was built on rugged individualism and personal desires and ego. That's why Americans make dreadful followers of Buddhism, as well. And that's the root of the Blender Philosophy-- if it works for you, go with it. To which I too subscribe, because after all I'm not following a path laid out by anyone else at all. For me, this is purely personal. But I think even for a lot of people who purport to be following a Path the idea holds-- if it feels right, why not add it in? And if we recognize the legitimacy of any eclectic path, well, where's the line? When is it not legitimate?

Okay, I need food now.

I don't like stereotyping but I will say in my own personal experience americans with ANY religion or belief seem not to have a sense of humour about such things. But that's only most of the yanks I know.
It's all terribly important all of the time.
Know what I mean?

Exactly so I'm Canadian and I've been remarking on that same thing for some years now and not just about Paganism.

I think the BIGGEST thing about "American paganism" which has spilled over into Canada, is the need for instant gratification and gratification in general. This were you not only get your MacPaganism, or the "do what feels right and call it whatever you want" but also the apparent drive for "degrees" and other titles as status symbols.

Trying to explain that one gets a "title" or "degree" AFTER doing the work and results in large amounts of responcibility falls on deaf ears.

Now that said, this is just a rendition of the popular paganism that is most visible. the Americans I call friend all tend to be of the sensible, down to earth type who understand that one's spiritual path isn't a free ride and who will happily join me in hunting the wild fluffy bunnies

Heck yeah WW!!

I totally agree with you.
Think lots o them have forgotten what a witch is . Its nothing to do with being Wiccan,, non wiccan , hedgewitch etc.

Its about making a difference... being the one that chooses while working behind the scenes. Thank feck for the basic instinct of the 'knowings an the doings' eh. All them American wiccins can go prancing around fancying the lord an the lady..while others of us are kneeling in dog shit an setting light to our feckin hair on our journey fires.

Ho humm....we see eh..lol

Rain

probably safer too.

it happens here, as well.

There are any number of High Priests or Priestesses I've met I wouldn't want to spend time with because there's nothing going on between the ears. Even Gardner ignored the practice of linking degress with a minimum timeframe (a year and a day) to learn things required to show one deserved to be acknowledged by an advance in degrees when it suited him to do so.

But the whole thing is out of kilter, anyway. The ancient Druidic practice of studying for years was the result of a culture where that was the sole spiritual path, and was governed by those who had studied. Even so, no doubt there were rogues, as there are in any culture and religion.

Neo-paganism has few colleges to impose standards, and many pagans do not want to submit to discipline, either from an organisation or even self imposed.

On the other hand, although the variety and freedom means it's very possible to encounter Macpagans of all sorts, one also comes across the seekers who are nervous that they're not doing it 'right' in some sense, and for whom all that freedom is slightly uncomfortable as it can seem there are (often unexplained) expectations they cannot meet, for which no training is provided.

Then you get those who come into paganism already self disciplined and with gifts, for whom a time based degree system doesn't work.

My own personal view is that we each, in the end, not only discover what suits us (or else drop out) but also which people we listen to, and respect, regardless of any 'titles' or the absence of them. On the whole, I treat anyone claiming a title of some kind with suspicion, unless they can prove to me they can walk the walk.

I remember having a conversation with a BTW friend of mine about that, though she mentioned MANY more then just Gardner. She referred to it as "hot-tub wicca"



You and me both. I've very much of the "don't tell me, show me" mentality about a lot of things

Just a comment about standards. No we aren't regulated "profession" (for lack of a better term) but I think personal standards do go a long way. And while there is no grand magical counsel handing out licenses, it's more then doable to check out any claimed linage. To butcher an old adage: Seeker beware.

I just returned from an annual family visit to the States and I have come up with similar findings as many listed here. U.S. paganism is more refined and somewhat standardized; many pagans don't feel the historical "strain" that European pagans do. By that I mean that in Europe we still have our past history "the Burning Times") to remind us of the past, of our ancient heritage that through out the ages has suffered yet prevailed, and this in its original form as the Old Religion. America is a young country and as such has not really developed an original historical support for its beliefs, whether they be Christian or pagan; most of these beliefs have been carried over from other places outside the North American continent. I have many pagan friends and feel they refer to rituals and "programed" group meetings more than European pagans. They have a pre-eminient need for that, that covens and similar groups are more predominent in the U.S. and that solitary practioners are basically those who are highly "advanced" and can operate or get on without the need of group co-ordination. It's as though they need a "leader;" as though they have some kind of reluctance to do anything on they own.

As an American living in Europe (33 years) I feel a greater affinity with the Old Religion as defined by European standards. I am not sure I would have ever had the opportunity to meet any American pagans in the extremely close-knit Christian atmosphere I lived in. It had to come after some 20 years of searching after I left the U.S. (I married a French citizen) and gradually finding my way into the Craft as it is known here in Europe. I had this tremedous impression that I was returning home after a very long absence, and have never felt so much "at home" as I did, and finally realized that this was indeed my place. I learned quite a bit of the principles of the Craft in a short period of time; it was as it I had never really stopped to begin with, was just waylaid somewhere along the path and got lost. Now that I am familiar with both "types" of paganism, I feel that for the most part Americans have a longer way to go concerning concrete beliefs, that everything appears "too new" and recent. But they do have a sincere willingness and desire to carry the torch of their pagan beliefs, especially in the light of recent discriminations coming from U.S. Christian fundamentalists.

Johanna