Was going to reply in the post, but something Weatherwitch said caught my attention.

Self initiation was frowned upon, as if it is not legitimate or such.

Is this the case or do people have (as with so many pagan things!) different opinions on this?

If you don't know any other pagans then how do you get initiated?

Is initiation important?

Who is valid to do initiation?

What governing body is there to validate initiation, so that people believe you?

Is it important that people believe you? So many things could be said that one could have no proof of and so why believe them in the first place...

Do you need initiation to be accepted as a "pagan" or "wiccan"?

What is the definitive "initiation" ritual? Is there even one?!


Anyway, enough questions. These questions in no way reflect my views or opinions its just curiosity (Sp??). Please don't flame me....

I'm going to flame you cos you've partially nicked my thread. At least I think on some meta-level we've asked a similar question...
No idea what's the right thing to do, but I'd rather have enough belief in myself and my choice of path to be able to initiate myself.
Why should I need someone else to validate my belief? Might as well go and get baptised...
If initiation is a part of your path, and is a means of being accepted into a particular group then all well and good, but me personally I think I'd rather work alone, not in a coven.
Badger's Moon
xx

(Please don't flame me either. I'm a virgin)

Self initiation for what honey?

For Wicca? Seems to me that if you want to be a wiccan you need to be initiated by a coven or some such. If you want to be a solitary wiccan.. get intitated by a coven and then go it alone. Im sure you could self initiate and in the past I would very much have been all for someone doing that if thats what they wanted to do. But as someone pointed out in some previous post about something similar... Wicca isnt a solitary path. If you want to be a solitary then it doesnt seem to be that wicca is the path for you.

Certainly you can follow the wiccan ways, beliefs and rituals, but if you dont WANT to be part of a group.. why worry about calling yourself a wiccan or about getting initiated?

If not wicca, you can dedicate youself to anyone or anything and frankly I dont think anyone has the right to tell you if you cant or cant.

I've been criticized so much by others because I performed a self-initiation & have never even met another Wiccan (that I'm aware of) let alone joined a coven.

To me Faith is incredibly personal & I feel you don't need anyone else to tell you what you're soul says or to communicate with a higher power.
In my view (& I'm sure others will disagree) coven initiation is organised religion.
I wanted a Faith that was 100% personal that I could link with on my own without having to rely on others, so self-initiation felt right to me.

If you're making a promise to a higher power, why do you need someone to do it with you?

I don't look down on anyone who has been initiated by a coven, but for me it means more to me, that I did it myself.

But that's my path, & I know others walk in a different direction...

<QUOTE>Certainly you can follow the wiccan ways, beliefs and rituals, but if you dont WANT to be part of a group.. why worry about calling yourself a wiccan or about getting initiated?<QUOTE>

Maybe I'm mistaken & not following the Wiccan path....to me, "a rose by any other name.." I don't feel a need to name my Faith, but I believe my path is fairly close to Wicca so if anyone asks that's what I say....maybe I'm wrong.....???
I did feel I needed to take an "oath" so to speak. I suppose it's similar to be baptized, a kind of wiping the slate clean & starting again......I tend to do what feels right. I follow my gut instincts....

I think it's entirely up to the individual.

I oathed myself to Pomona for as long as we had need of each other, and as time's gone on, I've oathed myself to Minerva and to Herne. I'm not following a particular path which requires initiation, so the dedication and oath-takings were enough.

I can understand why people want to self-initiate, for the reasons already mentioned: like a baptism and rebirth idea.

I do understand why people who follow a solitary wiccan path self-initiate: coven Wicca incorporates initiation as part of its path, so it would make sense to follow the same procedure.

well i'm Heathen, so we dont tend to do any initiation other than wake up one day and say 'I'm Heathen ' !

i think that no one individual Pagan is on the same path as another, we can change and make it fit to suit ourselves or just see things from a different perspective.

i dont feel the need and dont understand why anyone would, but if someone else does then thats fine for them.

Oooh goodie I got someone thinking The trouble is I can't vote as the question is way to open. Self initation into what? The Masonic Order? Wicca? Paganism?! My opinion is definately that you don't need to be initated into Paganism as there is absolutely no need. That requirement doesn't exist, it has never existed. Paganism is so massive and varied it would be impossible to initate into every path and why would you want to? You may dedicate yourself to your Gods which is very different

There are many differing opinions about the legitamacy of those who self iniatate into wicca. That by it's own traditional definition requires followers to be initated by a coven and traditionally after learning for a year and a day. But who's heard of a neophyte now? Is a solitary wiccan legitimate who has self dedicated? In my opinion, No, for many reasons Well you did ask

Initation is not important nor a requirement for those alone. Dedication however may be. Whatever your path, heathen, pagan, wicca. (As opposed to Wicca )

If you don't know other pagans but you wish to be initated then the person simply is not seeking hard enough. Hard line pagans take the fact that people used to have to travel many, many miles to be a part of a coven, regardless of health, transport, location etc. There was none of this massive internet forums and meeting places that we have today where everything is possible. To them the I can't find is a cop out. To be pagan is to be tested, to fail the first test is more telling then ever.

Initiation is important - to those who qualify So may dedicating oneself to the Gods as well

The only ones valid technically to do self iniatition would be from the coven. Not some silly bugger online via a school of witchcraft and (gods forbid) wizardy. Nor does taking an online course in wicca qualify you. Although I feel it does qualify the person as guillable.

There is no governing body in paganism, nor is there one for the branch of wicca. Although the red dressing gowned one does claim to be the King of Witches - which is why we all think he is a prat However for me, I would believe someone at their word for having been properly initated, no piece of paper or governing body required.


I would believe them because I believe in people. (I may not trust them but that's a different matter ) Liars soon trip themselves up, as do prats, idiots and so on. The truth speaks for itself

Much of the problem occurs when people have no knowledge of the bastardisation of Wicca. Ameri-Wicca is responsible for a whole load of crap out there

um my understanding of wicca is that it is a religeion, and one that can be practiced by a groupe or an individual. self initiation is talked about alot in variouse wicca books but it is silly too some extent. Initiation is for a group setting, it is a way of welcoming new comers to the collective and belief system. So it is a form of acceptance for the group. you can be a solitary wiccan and even one that has never joined a group, because it is just another religion that can be practiced, in this sentce you dont need to initiate your self cos its just you so you dedicate your self to the teachings(in their variouse forms) to the religion of wicca. in xtianity baptism was a symbol of your convertion to the faith, it has now, however become a form of initiation for the denomination you are in, forexample if a baptist turnd jehovah's witness they would need to be baptised again as the two denominations ideas and interpritations are very different. it may not be the same for wicca but the point is that initiation in what ever form is mainly for the group setting. itis also possible to be an xtian with out being baptised not all the deciples were!

whith that in mind we could ponder the question who initiated the first pagan, wiccan, witch magician?

Initiation into what?

The Cripps? The Bloods? Delta Nu? The Masons? The Wicca? The Catholic Church??????

Yes, WW got me thinking. Bad, BAD thing to do after a can of cider 'cos then i get all philosophical like and start spouting randomness... or maybe they are divine questions from Thoth....

Anyway...

I deliberately left the question open.

As people have already said, what are you being initiated into?

Is initiation a common feature in all the pagan paths, or is it just wicca that has taken this up?

Do druids initiate members?


Personally, I clicked the "slightly agree". Reason being that like other people have said i don't necessarily think that initiation itself is important, I more believe in dedication. Initiation/dedication are terms that can get confused... usually to simplify things for people.

Initiation from some of those lovely books WW is on about seems more to say "hey look at me, i'm a wiccan", rather than anything more meaningful.

Dedication on the other hand is much more personal and meaningful. Its taking an oath and doing things towards that.

As WW has said finding pagans is a challenge and it can be hard. I have found other pagans but as yet not ones I get on with a great deal... probably me 'cos I am not the most sociable person in the world. I'm mostly solitary though sometimes I'm curious about group work, though again that doesn't "feel" me.

Forums like this are good for sharing ideas and thoughts and its good to know that there are people out there you can discuss things with if and when you need them. Plus people out there who will happily shoot you down if you get too arrogant and self-righteous. Think we all need that kind of support every now and again.

Anyway... rambling stopped!

Personally I found my self-dedication a much bigger step than my Wiccan initiation.

When I dedicated myself to seeking the path of the Wicca, the oath was sworn between me and my Gods. There can be no pretence, no hiding, no falseness, no lies, no other person to support you if you falter, when it is just you soul-naked and completely honest before your Gods. Perhaps this could be termed "the initiation of a journey"?

The Wiccan initiation is about more than an oath before the Gods, it's about being welcomed into the family of the Wicca, it's about signing up to a certain heritage, and not something that one can join without the family welcoming you. I think that's a point that those who think they can self-initiate into the Wicca don't get. To put it simply, say your name is Smith and there's a family of Jones who live down the road from you and you want to be in the Jones family. So you start calling yourself Jones. You still wouldn't be part of their family unless they decided to let you live with them and recognised you as part of their family.

There are other paths, such as Seax which one can self-initiate into. If you "do the doings" then other Seax have to recognise you as a valid Seax, anybody can set up a Seax group or coven.

Also, anybody can start their own group or witches and have initiatory rites into that particular group, just as school gangs, college fraternities, Masons, etc. have initiatory rites.

< rant >Because of the over-emphasis on "initiation" it gets lots of crap talked about it. Why is there such an obsession with "initiation"? Why don't people put the effort into learning about their path, their Gods, and spiritual growth instead of obsessing about a word? How come no one tries to self-initiate into the various degrees of the Golden Dawn or the OTO? Does the thought that there might actually be some work involved scare people off? It all seems like a lot of ego-w**k to me. Initiation into ANYTHING doesn't make you a better witch, a more spiritual person, a nicer person, more intelligent or anything. It just makes you part of a group and whichever group you are joining gets to decide whether you're in or out, not you! < /rant >

Rhiannon

Its a very personal thing. Myself, as a solitary hedgewitch (who likes to play with others) I'd 'read' about solitary initiations, but never felt drawn to do one.

After I'd found a mentor type personage, who had been Gardernerian trained, once we'd been working together for a year, she asked me if I wanted an 'initiation to my path' type ritual. Again I didn't feel drawn to do it.

I don't know if at a later date I'll feel the need to do some sort of inititaion or dedication to my paths or my gods, I'm sure they'll let me know.

However, anyone else is enitled to do whatever they see fit. As Pomona says the idea of wanting a symbolic rebirth onto their path makes a certain sense, I gues that would be particularly relevant for someone wanting to cast off a past religious alliegence.

However I also understand why covened Wiccan's get a little upset, the idea that someone can pick a book of the shelf at Waterstones on Friday morning and have initiated yourself by Friday teatime. For covened Wiccans I think it might appear to belittle the journey from neophyte to initiate.

At the end of the day a person gotta do what a persons gotta do. However, you can't expect everyone to accept the validity of what you do.

I think what a person needs to ask themselves is why are you doing an initiation / dedication? Who are you initiating for? Yourself, to your particular path, your gods or for others. If its for yourself who gives a tinkers cuss what anyone else thinks your doing. If your doing it cos a book told you that you should...prolly a big commitment to make for the sake what a book told you to do.

Q

I ticked strongly agree. I think that we can self-initiate (haven't done it myself). I think that if people want to do that then that is what they should do.

I don't want self initiation at the moment because I feel that a path is a continuous thing which is experienced like a dawning awareness - your sense of spirit gradually reveals itself until you recognise who you are. for me being a pagan is an inner thing I do not want grand ceremony (which is something I tend to dislike in real life in general) or even small ceremony.

for me it is more like a relationship - the doing is more important than the ceremony.

but I respect others who feel they wish to have ceremony, everybody has their own way, their own learning, their own path to follow - in my view there is no place for mockery/put downs/or 'my faith is better than yours' attiitude because everybody have different needs or things to understand.

fizzy

I dont know if what i did was initiating or dedicating but i took myself through a little ritual where i put aside my past beliefs and declared openly to myself and any passing deity that I was now following this path.

I think its whatever floats your boat, if thats what you want to do then do it. I dont think someone can tell you that its wrong.

temps

To me, initiation as a concept is about beginning something. You could say that we are all going through initiations into new states of being throughout our lives. When you break a leg, for example, it's an initiation into pain. When you're left screaming in the reception class, it's another initiation. Or when you first fall in love. Or if your mother is a rampant feminist and wants to make a festival out of your first blood.

There would have to be a reason why you wanted to undergo a planned initiation. You would perhaps be looking to join a group, as others have said earlier in this thread, but you might equally well be looking to commit yourself to a certain path, or to open up to a new level of consciousness, which you certainly could do on your own.

But I really don't think you either 'have to' be initiated at any point, or need to see it as only one point in a lifetime - it could happen many times.

Ah but it's often that type of thinking that brings forth the best questions When the mind is free of stress or worry, although after a few cans of cider the best enlightened moments are usually not that bright in the morning

And the curious thing, something I'm sure that more than a few of us noticed, many people simply voted without knowing the facts, ie, the what? Perhaps rushing headlong into this as well without consideration?

Fabulous, I so agree with that. Initiations of certain types are definately about the hey I'm a WITCH, be scared of me .... please? brigade Some however are about the same thing as dedication. There's more to magic, witchcraft and ritual than mere books.


cos it sounds soooo much cooler to say you're initiated

Because you just answered it yourself, effort. Once initiated you can stop learning as you know all you need to learn. Yeah right, you never, ever stop learning along your path. You re-evaluate and think and live it, don't play at it.

You said the 'W' word Yep, that's it too

Just a tiny weeny little bit it would

Exactly, especially with some of todays wicca wannabe books. Some of the books have truly appalling misinformation in them, about things that any sane person would spot, Yorkshire being next to Scotland & that crawling beneath a table of 4 (or was it 6) legs when you've been cursed would undo the curse ... Yet these books (and those are genuine mistakes in magic books people) are telling folk how to self initiate. If the author can't get basic facts right, how accurate is the rest of their work? Their rituals? You don't mess with magic for the repercussions are drastic. Truly know and understand what you are getting involved in, so doing something like that on the basis of the book told me to is a highly interesting move


Well said in that the path is continuous, we never stop learning along it, from beginnng to death (after which it continues if reincarnation is your thing). You evolve along your path but learning is the most valuation lesson. Research and learning cover many aspects, but both are crucial along the way. Poor research is shown by a slow, unrewarding path. No path is clear and all are extremely difficult, if they're not then the person is extremely likely to be missing out on highly valued lessons and mile high signs. Respect however for what created the path so long ago is extremely important for if you don't understand your beginning you will never fully grasp your path.

To any passing deity? Blimey, that could've been very interesting


Brilliant Perhaps it's how the initiation is marked or even recognised that really counts?

I'm a Heathen as well and I did pledge an oath to a particular god but it was a purely personal thing and not necessarily what all heathens do.

I don't understand the reason behind initiations. I can imagine that initiations came about when there was a need for absolute secrecy amongst members when the world was more hostile to such things. Is it something the gods require or is it something the coven leader requires?

I have had this convasation with a number of folks now... and it seems to boil down to different interpratations of the words 'innitation' and 'dedication'.

For me, Initiation is something that you go through to join a group and therefore can only be done in a group setting.
Dedication is something that you do for yourself... so can be done solo or in in a group.
I think it is perfectly posible to be BOTH dedicated and initiated...

I have dedicated myself to my path, but I have never been initiated - nor would I want to or claim to be... after all I am solo and not joining a group/coven/specific Pagan path.

I can (as other posters pointed out) totally understand the frustration and anoyance of groups about solo bods getting a book and self initating and thinking that they have done thier learning and are as good as those who have worked with a coven for serious time before getting the hounour of initiation.
I have respect (and this seems to be a fairly wide belief) with those who self dedicate... this is an aknowlegement of where you are wanting to go and how you are wanting to travel... rather than saying you are at the destination.

People do like the Kudos of saying 'I am initated...' it is ego, in many cases I am suspisious of those who flaunt such claims and titles... I am more interested in where they are in reality.
If they are genuinly part of a group then the initiation does hold respect.

Just thoughts
Be bright, be bold
Fillionous

from WW:

Perhaps it's how the initiation is marked or even recognised that really counts?


Yes, I think it is important to understand where a person begins there path, even if it is only vague point in time, for example, I could not say exactly when I decided to be pagan except when i made the decision (and even then I can't remember the specific date), but I also think that the reasons behind becoming a pagan (or any other religion) is of equal interest.

I have found that as time wears on we change our perspective of our beginning (or middle or ending for that matter). So an initiation in this sense could become meaningless because the reasons change. (not saying that it actually is meaningless - just that it might feel that way). This is main reason why I do not do ceremony because I feel that I change as time wears on but my 'path' is there always it bolsters my own sense of inconsistency precisely because it is always there, guiding me.

by gum, where did that come from?

fizzy.

When I dedicated myself to one of my Goddesses it was me to her. She didn't ask, my loyalty, my allegiance is with her. She already knew me a long time, had worked with me but dedication is something I take extremely seriously and see it as for life. I am polythesist with other Gods but that Goddess is the only one I have done this for. Personal choice on that. Her consort is active on my path. Of course this is different to self initation obviously

Good points Where did that come from? Wisdom, knowledge and understanding of the path hon The path may guide, send us in the wrong direction because we need that lesson, trip us up, or drive us nuts seemingly going in circles. Tis always so well worth the work in the end

Good thread- have just returned from a wee break in St Andrew's where I carried out my self initiation into the bardic grade of OBOD - so yes think self initiation is ok. Was a great time - powerful. Gonna get a tattoo to mark it!

Quote our weather witch



Initiation is just the start o the path...the wrongdoing is when people think initiation is the be all an end all o the path. They are the ones that get stuck at the first gate.

Initiates that get stuck at the first gate are next to useless.

I dont believe in self initiation. I believe a person can dedicate themselves to a path, but initiation comes from being excepted into somin, an that require an outside influence, not necessarily mortal either...it takes two to tango. an not always human.

Rain

congrats. Eagledance. fizzy

Thanks Fizz

Any suggestions re poss tattoo - am toying with an awen inside a celtic sun

Agree with Fillionous really.

My understanding of initiation is that it's about being validated in the eyes of others, surely contradictory in terms if you're solitary!

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

PRECISELY.

Is this really a self-initiation? OBOD will now recognise you as a Bard within their path and/or tradition so to me, this would count as a group-initiation, even if other members of the group are not there at the time it is carried out.

bb
Rhiannon

That is assuming the solitary initiate does not suffer from multiple personalities.

I think there are so many ways to define 'initiation', the question can't be answered in a way that would satisfy all. I think the term is used mostly in a group sense, as in being initiated into a fraternity, coven, richest CEOs of the year, club etc. But I believe that very rarely can anyone be completely solitary. There is always a god or a spirit or an essence/person/thing the 'solitary' is interacting with, maybe...swearing oaths, pledging their life' work to, for instance. There could be a thousand spirits attending a self-initiation ceremony, which might fit the description of 'being validated in the eyes of others'.

that'll look nice and it won't look overstated or brash. umm why didn't I think of that.

I like spirals meself - but I am not sure how that would fit with the design. is there certain animals you have a long standing affinity for?

A friend of mine from uni had a sun tattoo and she asked that hard blue/black outline not be used and it looked more like a piece of body art rather than a tattoo - the effect was really quite good.

fizzy

Why would you need to be?



Depends. Are you wanting to be part of a specific tradition? then yes. Are you happy doing your own thing? then no.



Again, it depends. are we talking something coven based? then it's someone who has the knowledge and ability to pass it on. I could initiate someone into my way of doing things.

Are we talking Shamanic paths? That can be up to the spirits or a combination of spirit initiation recognition among the human community.



Eh? Why would I need anyone to believe me? A) initiation is for ME and the furthering of MY path. Knowledge will out. Walking your talk is far more impressive then name dropping.



See above.



Why would there be? There's more then one path out there.

Faith is very personal. No argument there. but "faith" and "tradition" are not interchangeable. They aren't always even related.

If you're happy doing your own thing, that's fine. Nothing wrong with that. What gets my dander up is when someone claims to be something they aren't.

Lets use Wicca as the example. Wicca is a RELIGION, that mean sit has established practices and beliefs. to be Wiccan you need to follow these things. And here's the rub, there isn't' a book out there that has EVERYTHING that is part of Wicca so you can't learn the religion from a book. Much of it is experiential and you won't know what you're' experiencing is a Wiccan Mystery or not unless you have another Wiccan to compare notes with. So unless you've been not only initiated but through the basic training and mysteries, you aren't Wiccan.

And there is nothing WRONG with that. If you want to just commune with your give gods, you dont' NEED a title or anythign else to do that. But communing isn't going to make you part of any given tradition. There's a heck of a lot more to it then that.

As for "self-initiation" it's an oxymoron. look at teh defiatnino ofteh word. it's somethign done TO you by an OUTSIDE source.

Now if you want to talk abtou self-DEDICATION that's mreo then doable.....

As mentioned above faith, and in this case, initiation, is a very personal choice. This reminds me of an article I wrote seveal years ago on ancient Egyptian initiation in the Great Pyramid, for I believe that this was the original purpose of the pyramid to begin with. In it I mentioned the fact that the individual initiate went through his own proper initiation only after he/she felt ready for it and only when he/she felt that he could go through the initiatory act without assistance, as it was a very personal progression and there was no going back. In the end as the initiate transisted from his/her "old self" to a newly changed state, whether it be illmination or enlightment on a particular perplexity, he/she gained in mastership and self-knowledge.

Johanna

How is that an initiation? Sounds more like life experience to me.

Generally speaking when people are talking about the initiation they are talking about that ritual or action (as done to a person by an outside source) which brings you into a group or tradition. I for one am not talking about to initiate=to start something.

I would think that that "start" had occurred long before the initiation ever took place.

I, personally, don't see anything wrong with initiation being interpreted as a word which means a conscious decision to start your own journey...

...as opposed to someone else teaching you the knowledge required to join them on their journey...

That distinction may be the source of many of the arguements re: the initiation debate...

yes/no ??

I'm a bit confused by this thread because I can't quite work out what you mean by initiation - do you mean into a tradition (what if you're eclectic?) using traditional ritual or a ceremony to mark a stage in your pagan life or commitment to path...in which case what are you being initiated into, and should that necessarily be an initiation? I think Rites of Passage are extremely important so I'm not doing down the subject, just being confused by the language used!!

I agree it's fine, but not what is commonly meant by the term in this context. if you mean a ritual to mark the commencement of your own journey then what's wrong with calling it what it is: Self-Dedication.

To be honest the way that some carry on about self-initiation and completely ignore self-dedication it seems that they think of the first as being of more worth then the second, which I find very strange.

I think a lot of people are and current trends by many pagan authors don't help the situation. I don't know about over in the UK, but here in North America people seemed to use "self-initiation" when what is really being talked about is a "self-dedication."

Initiated into what? What I was born with is not something you acquire through initiation, and certainly not to be messed with by anyone seeking "recognition", as its most certain to draw the worst kind of attention...as for those who insist on waving that pent in my face, don't be surprised if it leaves an impression on your foreheads. I prefer to get my lessons from that higher source called NATURE!

Oh yeah, so know what you mean there Quaz (hey, I got the 'a' in at last). There are things that we seem to be with us regardless of initiation or whatever.

fizzy