It always strikes me as quite odd that there are people out there who genuinely view paganism through rose tinted glasses. They skip on through fields of floaty long green grass, full of poppies swaying in the breeze, bluebirds spiraling in the air around them as they sing 'We all come from the Goddess' with little fluffy bunnies with bobbing white fluffy tails jumping in and out of their way before arriving at the clearing in the woods where they call out 'Yoo Hoo Goddess, I've come for my daily cuddle'. *ahem*

Where on earth do they get this idea from? It isn't the land I live on that's for sure. Paganism for me is knowing the dark side of life, knowing the brighter side of life, knowing the land and understanding that it means all land, not just the land of the countryside. Any pagan who seeks this without knowing the land immediately beneath their own feet is seriously missing, and not just on brain cells Sure it's grand to be out in the fields, woods and hills but how many even think about the phenomenal land magic and desolate, yet potentially devasting energy of the moors or the sheer raw power of the magic of the sea? Or the gentler magic of a lake? How many even stop to consider the land magic of the town or city where the pulse is so strong it can be felt through spirit and feet? Beneath that concrete is the same earth, within the cracks of the concrete many of the same flowers grow that are found in the countryside. Above in the gutters more flowers grow, in my local town I love to see plants growing out of chimneys on the three storey ancient buildings Why do people seek a magic other than the one found naturally and local to them? Is it like cows sticking their heads through fences to eat the grass the other side because it's greener?

And what is with gentle sweet Gods and Goddeses for goodness sake? Ones who hold your hand, blow your nose and wipe your ... tears away And the new invention of the Morrigan as a total sweetie, when she is a war goddess. I could go on. In fact I will What is that make some folk shudder at the very thought of working with *gasp* the dark of the moon, it's one of the best times for me, always has been on the extremely rare occasions I require magical workings.

Or that you need all the tools and paranaphenilia before you start. You have yourself that's all that's needed, the rest isn't neccessary. How about blindly following a book because it tells you too, then believing that book as given fact. One book does not count as research. Your entire lifetime counts as research. The best tip for book learning ditch ones without a bibliography and that all Llewellyn's books are great for lighting the fire with

But really what is it with blinkered pagans? Why can't they see that you have to question everything, and not follow blindly. (Oh look another weatherwitch bugbear ) Why are some people simply not able to think for themselves but then preach bollocks to the rest of us stating it as gospel?

*weatherwitch temporarily ranted out*

But I always thought The Morrigan was kinda like a favourite auntie type of lady? Gosh! Have I been getting my deities mixed up? Do you think she'll mind terribly that I dedicate my pansies to her and use a pink candle in her rituals? Cos pink is such a lurving shade innit? Innit?
And the crystal bell was, I thought, a rather nice touch - I mean what self respecting Goddes could POSSIBLY object to being summoned with the tinkle of such a pretty object?

PS> I disagree TOTALLY with your suggestion that I use Llewelyn's (ahem, coff, coff) books to light my fire with. As far as I am aware, shite is not, and never has been, particularly combustible!

LOL!

I don't know hon. Maybe it's because there are a lot of Pagans who come to the path from Christianity and feel the need for reassurance and "nice" things after the threats of hell and Satan and so on?

As for shite being combustible, Tas, surely it depends on how dry it is? I don't know how dry Llewellyn is because I've never read it, but it's worth a try as a firelighter, surely.

But I have got a book of spells by a lady calling herself Soraya. Darling hubby bought it for me because he thought I would enjoy it, and I couldn't bring myself to chuck it out. Or read it either. But I'm writing a story which uses 'that' kind of spell working, so I've been dipping into it by way of research. And do you know, all the spells she recommends are to be worked on a waxing or full moon? Because of course they are all meant to raise positive energy. Or something. It's a bit hard to follow, to be honest.

I am interested to know what you connect with at dark moon, Weatherwitch? As a bye-the-bye, our neighbour in France cuts walking sticks to sell to tourists for cake money - very reasonable, only 2 euros each, and I bought a lovely twisted one from him - but the point is, he said he always cuts the wood at the dark of the moon. I think it's probably something to do with the sap or the woodworking properties - most likely not anything vaguely magical - but still, it must be related in some way to the energies that go with that time.

Oh - is that what I've been doing wrong?? You mean I can't do magic by daylight??

Wot happens if I want to blast someone and it's the full moon, then? Do I have to put it on hold for two weeks?? "Er, you know that unpleasant thing you want to leave your house, well do you mind putting up with the nightmares another couple of weeks because it's the wrong time of the month..."

And The Morrigan's not the only one. I've had people tell me (I can't say with straight faces as they were posting, not talking, but it was sincere and serious) that they do, too, have a relationhip with Sekhmet/Kali/Odhinn and s/he's a warm, nurturing soul as well as whatever else. Yeah. Right.

The "Dark Goddess" ™ is glamourous and sexy. Having one as your patron, or to whom you at least talk to and who takes you seriously, mean that you must be someone whom everyone should take seriously. If you can cope with a "Dark Goddess" you must know how to handle yourself and be a person of power. How many people do you know tell you all about having Venus, Idhunna, Bast or Sirona as their goddess? Is there some book out there of "must have" goddesses?

Heh. Total Shite.

I have always abhorred new age shamanism as something that belongs on "sell-a-vision", rather, gained much of my knowledge through congenital psychic ability, Prussian pragmatism, Welsh family tradition and growing up amongst Native Americans of various paths. When I finally gained internet access with a brand new computer back in 2005, I thought I might check out the general concensus of Paganism in the English speaking world. I started on a eclectic forum in the United States, that despite all efforts to reason with those people, it proved to be much as Weatherwitch described. Indeed, their view of Native American paths, let alone other traditions, reeked too heavily of new age evangelism (not to mention all its sexual taboos). This caused me to review other North American pagan forums, only to find much of the same widespread misconception. That was when I turned to the listing of "Critical Pagan Forums" and finally found UKP. Here I have thoroughly enjoyed watching any half-baked ideas go down in flames, after all, that's what Nature's really all about.

I don't know.. surely the balance of light and dark is part of paganism, so why not part of the gods as well? The Celtic Goddess Sulis, patron of the hot springs at Bath was a solar deity associated with both cursing and healing, for example.

The most detailed example I can think of from my own pantheon is Erzulie Dantor, a very, very dangerous Goddess if you cross her but also a very loving and nurturing one. She's like a mother bear - she'll do anything to protect her cubs including fight to the death for them. I've felt her presence in both her aspects; aggressive and nurturing, and for me that's what makes her so special.

Basically she's the "opposite number", if you like, of Erzulie Freda, a Venus-like goddess of love, beauty, wealth, luxury and creativity. Erzulie Dantor is a strong, independent woman who works hard for her children, is shrewd in business dealings and tells you things straight, but she is also pure rage and dark female power. Coversely, Erzulie Freda, although she's gentle, highly romantic and idealistic, is possibly the most powerfully magical of all the loa in the pantheon, and a hex done under her provenance will mess up the life of the target almost irreparably. It's all about balance. And yes, I serve both the Erzulies!

Dantor is frequently called upon by women who are oppressed or who have suffered rape or domestic violence, and woe to the man who disrespects a woman who has even a nodding acquaintance with her! She's called on by the heartbroken when they need a strong shoulder to bear them up, and by women who need help with their financial lives.

I think I'd find it hard to serve gods who aren't associated with the good times in life as well as the bad. It's my nature that I'm drawn to the darker deities, but I think my spiritual life would be a lot less rich if I didn't find and explore those dichotomies, and work with deities who have both aspects to their personalities. Or maybe it's just that Vodou is a path that explicitly recognises in its deities both the gentle and the aggressive.

It rather depends on the god, Crow. As you've very ably pointed out.

And I picked on Sirona rather than Sulis having seen the curses thrown into the latter's springs. Idhunna, from my own religion, always strikes me as a bit of an airhead, bless her. (She knows what I think and doesn't seem to mind). Venus, actually, isn't just roses and sex, but I threw her name in just to make the point.

Well, flames. They indicate Hell don't they? The abode of Satan - him wiv the horns and the pitchfork, the evull one? I still fail to understand why everyone regards him as evull or scary.

Only he's a REALLY nice guy - I know this from when I go out toparties, and I have too much of the amber nectar and it makes the dimensions go all wobbly so I can't aim for things properly. Things like crudities, and hors d'oevres.

When this happens, I just summon Satan, and he ALWAYS comes to my rescue. He uses his little pointy pitchfork to skewer the errant olives and pickled onions for me, and then he feeds me them, gently, and with a knowing grin upon his little scarlet face. He is a PROPER gent., and no mistake!

Of course, I always make sure I pay him homage for his efforts afterwards. It would be very rude not to, especially when he's come all the way from the Seventh Level of Hell to serve me.

I make him an offering of daffodils (or other seasonal flowers) and a libation of Irn Bru. He seems to me to be highly appreciative of my efforts. And I ALWAYS remember to banish him back to his dungeon dimensions afterwards. Tis only polite after all.

Hypothetically, if I were in the position of being annoyed by the beliefs of such pagans (if I ever were to meet one, which I luckily haven't yet ;o) , there are two options FOR ME most likely to work to help solve the problem. One is to change my own attitude so I wouldn't be so easily annoyed. The other is to be a good example myself, to show them what I know, believe and work with. The best way to bring about positive change in another person's attitude, in helping them to break down their self-imposed spiritual barriers if they're open to that, would be to get them interested in what I'm doing, to get them asking questions, to show them my own path and that it's not scary or negative just because I'm not 'fluffy bunny'. (Well maybe hippy-dippy on occasion, but very rarely fluffy bunny!'

Hmm, never met Satan, at least not personally, but I do know his cousin Lucifer from the Netherrealm Holiday Resort. Quite a charming chap actually, and really knows how to delight the truly hedonistic palat, so it must run in the family. His Teutonic counterpart Teufel, was premier of Baden-Württemberg until recent retirement, while his brother Belzebüb drops by occasionally to share in the ritual mischief and spiked cup of tea.

Indeed I tried although knowing, from much travel and experience, that this just doesn't work with the hopelessly "god-fearing" in any form. On the other hand I have no sense of god-fear that feels the need to save such futility from itself.

Oops, I must have misunderstood. I thought we were talking about pagans, not 'god-fearing' people (like my Christian parents, for instance). Anybody who is god-fearing, in that sense, is most likely not pagan. And you're right, there is very little open-mindedness in the evangelicals in the US. But I'm just saying it doesn't hurt to try. After all, I was brought up in a southern baptist home for my first 18 years . But when I was old enough to know that wasn't me at all, I got the hell outta there. If I hadn't learned what it was like on 'this side', from meeting likeminded people who were great examples of living the pagan lifestyle, who knows where I'd be right now!?! So it IS possible. Just sayin'.

I suspect Quasi was using the phrase to describe a certain mindset that can be found in any religion.

I don't think the problem lies with those who appear fluffy because they are seeking; but with those who are not seeking; who have come to their own conclusions, however hopelessly contrary to the experiences of others, and who do not wish to know anything different, despite anything that is said to them, so that no amount of reasoning, being gentle etc will break down the barriers because they prefer their own ideas. IME, if presented with information or 'help' in whatever form, and however gentle, they can become quite vicious.

It's my view that the majority of rose tinted pagans have found the mind body spirit section of Borders or Waterstones and picked up the books on LLewelywicca taken it as Gospel truth and never wavered from that. never striving to find out if there is more, never questioning. Because it's in a book it must be true... You know.... Idiots.

To an extent (at least these days) I think many start out like that because they are the easiest books to find, at first most people just don't think well sod that book on Living wicca let me have a look at this local myths and legends book instead and see what connections there are in there.

The rose tinted ones go for the easy route all the time.

Yes I started out like that to a degree, ok not looking at only the positive in live/nature (hell when you have had so much negative in your life it's hard to see the positive ) but with the LLewelywicca books, all you need to do is read my intro post here to see what I mean and to see how much I have changed on my path and beliefs.

As long as you are prepared to work and continually seek out the answers or question what you read then you soon loose the fluff and rose tinted outlook.

Nature isn't all Love and Light it's Bloody Tooth and Claw all the way.

Ah, I see. I suppose that I've been lucky not to have come across any pagans with that kind of frozen mindset. (Believe me, it's something I would recognise because I have seen/continue to see it so blatantly in the Christian church.) But then again, I was not on any forums until just last year. Before then, all the pagans I've met have been in 'real' life.

Really well put Moon. Thats exactly the problem. You can forgive the newbies, because as Herne says, for some its the only way in.

What confuses me is I dont see what they get from it? Its not reality, it certainly not understanding life. Its very "we all come from the goddess and the goddess is love and light". I personally would find that very unfulfilling. Mind you I have never been one to go through life with my head stuck in the sand.

I don't get where this is coming from!
What really gets me is that any pagan is bothered!!
I actualy thought that paganism was about allowing people to believe what they want to believe, how they want to believe it. Or is that being too "fluffy"?

Why, if I state to anyone here that I am a pagan should it be a "problem" or "confuse" you how I practice my paganism?

Why is your knowledge and practice more valid than mine? (I won't actualy use the word better because no one else has but thats the feeling the thread gives)

Why should I be prepared to work and continually seek out the answers, or question what I read?

And why should it strike you "as quite odd that there are people out there who genuinely view paganism through rose tinted glasses. They skip on through fields of floaty long green grass, full of poppies swaying in the breeze, bluebirds spiraling in the air around them as they sing 'We all come from the Goddess' with little fluffy bunnies with bobbing white fluffy tails jumping in and out of their way before arriving at the clearing in the woods where they call out 'Yoo Hoo Goddess, I've come for my daily cuddle'. *ahem*"

They do it and I do it sometimes. Go on admit it, so do you. Sometimes?
Is there a need to ridicule it? If I get through one day by means of "love and light" then to me, its valid.
bb
RamsHart
Fluffy and proud.

Well said Ramshart.
I have sat here at my pc and written 3 replies to this thread, but each one didn't say exactly what I wanted it to say. I am not very good with words BUT, you have said exactly what I wanted to say.

Being a Pagan is about following your own path and your own beliefs. There is no right or wrong way to be Pagan. This is what you have all taught me while I have been a member on here. You are now saying that what I believe is wrong because I dont look at things the same way that you do??? I don't look at paganism through rose tinted glasses, but so what if I did want to be full of fluff, love and light. If that is what makes me a happier/better person, then who is to say I am wrong??? I dont skip through fields singing, but I do like to look at all the good things in the world rather than the bad. I don't deny there is evil/bad, but I dont dwell on it either.

gina
xx

Hi Gorganna
This wasnt my first draft either, I think that was my third attempt.
The first thing I wanted to know when I read this thread was; was it put here to scare or test some of the "newbies" that had joined since Weatherwitch had been away? Since Weatherwitch started it only she could answer this, but I didn't want to rub up one of the, what seems to me, most respected people on the site. But what the hell I've said it now so if you'd like to answer it Weatherwitch I'd be greatfull.

bb
RamsHart
ps If you like being rubbed up the wrong way let me know, I'll do it some more.

Yay, somebody said what I wanted to say! Thank you Ramshart & Gorgana for putting it so clearly. I just joined a few days ago and didn't quite feel ballsy enough to question the 'my pagan ways are better than yours' tone I got from the thread. Honestly, as an expat, sometimes I don't know if attitudes I come across are a cultural consensus and I should just keep my dang mouth shut, or just an individual's opinion, but it's nice to see others in agreement. I also wanted to question why any pagan would get so annoyed annoyed/upset by what other people believe. There are a lot more important things to get pissed off about in this world. It seems more of a 'Grumpy Old Pagan Women' kind of thing to do.

Because isn't that what spiritual, and intellectual, growth is, isn't it? You wouldn't seriously suggest that you'd learn something, accept it without question, and then never seek to build on that knowledge?



Is it? Where does it say that?!

No, I guess when it comes down to it, that's absolutely right. There's no rule-book, no dictats, no commandments.

One's draw to Paganism is generally the result of UPG (Unsubstantiated Personal Gnosis)

There are two points I guess: how far should modern Paganism evolve from the beliefs (in many cases recorded beliefs) of our ancestors, and when does "your own beliefs" become just a reason for believing whatever you want, regardless of rationale and authenticity?

"Love & Light" ?

Can someone explain please

How do you tell the difference between what someone has made up and written to earn money or kudos, and what is true? Or does it not matter?

Wolverine, it's an ethos that no matter how dire and black the situation, sending out positive energy, or love, will solve the problem. That if someone does you harm, it's because they are damaged in some way so healing them will help prevent a re-occurrence of their "offending".

I'm not trying to be offensive to anyone, but how does that deal with emotional vampires?

Don't vampires feed off negative energy? By sending positive energy at them it might be possible to make their heads explode.

There's nothing wrong with a bit of fluffy love and light, and for someone who's been off-balance all their life it's nice to stand still and smell the roses for a little while.
I know the world is a hard, black bleak place full of struggle and strife just to survive. It's just that sometimes I need a break from thinking about it in order to retain my own sanity.
Badger's Moon
xx

No I wouldn't.
But I also wouldn't ridicule or call names of someone who wasn't prepared to work, seek answers, or question what they read to the nth degree. If that person is content to do little work in seeking answers and plump for the first thing they read, then good look to them.


Agreed.




Ha Ha, Its that old, "you show me yours and I'll show you mine" argument.
Proof, that is.



Point 1a :As in, evolve away from? I don't see that it should, if thats the path you choose to walk. If you have the knowledge of the ancestors then I feel rather jelious. In a good way of course. Although if you don't pass on yours and others knowledge it will eventually fade. (Untill somebody 200 years hence re-discovers it!)

Point 1b: As in, Taking the beliefs of our ancestors and interpriting them into modern day life? I might be wrong but I thought thats what NeoPaganism is. Its just that to go round saying "Hi, I'm a Neopagan" all the time would be a bind. Plus you'd get people asking you what the difference was. Don't know 'bout you but that would get a bit tedious after a while.

I don't quite understand what your asking in point 2.

Maybe thats what "your own beliefs" is, just a reason to believe whatever you want.
I don't see how you can have a belief system without some rationale though. I personaly don't think you need any Authenticity for a belief system but I would say you need rationale.

How about this..

Mmmm, don't know about that, I'll have to go ponder.

bb
RamsHart

But what is the problem with that?
It may well be naive, but it ain't gonna hurt anyone.

Or would you rather the "fluffies" took whatever energy they have and start hurling hexs at everybody?
bb
RamsHart
ps
Can you hurl a Hex?

Many people have been killed in the name of Love

But you wouldn't applaud a student at school for refusing to build on any knowledge gained, would you?

Would the Renaissance have happened if the scientists of the day didn't question the perceived "facts" of the day?

I guess what it comes down to is that I cannot envisage Pagansim as a path on which one does not continually learn. Every time I go out into the woods I see something new that I didn't know happened. Every time I read something it gets stored as something to consider, every time one of the Gods points something out, it's knowledge acquired.

Further, I can't get my head around how someone would CHOOSE a Pagan path and also choose NOT to learn anything. Why bother?

As for the other point ("your own beliefs becoming a JUST reason for believing whatever you like") - I'll let you ponder

As for



Have to say that in my experience, some of the most vicious, nasty, manipulative people I've ever had the misfortune to meet were "love and lighters". You'd be amazed what can be spouted in the name of "love".

I know one "love and lighter" who believes, quite sincerely, that a mutual friend who was badly abused as a child should "suck it up" because the suffering is teaching her a lesson she needed to learn and she should love her abuser because they hurt more than she does...

I'll leave the emoticons out of that statement - you can add your own.



Seems as good a verb as any!

Emotional vampires - and I've know many (it was part of my professional duties at one stage to try to neutralise them) - feed off all and every emotion. Those who try to feed them love and light get sucked dry and fed back anger, until the person wanting to give love eventually gives up (often blaming themselves for being inadequate in being unable to fill the vampire's black hole) or becomes depressed and unable to give any energy.

{edited to get the quote marks right}

I go with the hex hurlers too Pomona!
Just remember folks, if you try this at home, mind and LET GO when you hurl it!
Otherwise you end up in orbit.
This can be messy and distressing for innocent bystanders!

Indeed Moonhunter, you hit the nail on the head, however its not so much their reaction to what I might present or advise them on personally- that, I prefer to avoid at all costs. I suspect its more my independent-minded ambivalence, that neglects to see them as the center of the universe. As much as I may post on topics truly open to discussion, it doesn't stop them from that cat and mouse game of trying to subordinate me until their intent becomes just a little too blatantly obvious. Its only then that I see any worth in shooting them. Given my largely militant background and its advanced knowledge of strategy and tactical applications, they should at least be glad that I AM TRYING TO BE CIVIL ABOUT IT. In that respect I would rather leave the "soul-saving" to those of more domestic interests.

I used to spend a lot of time hunting them, but then I realised:
(a) they bred faster than I could kill them, and
( the fluff gets up nose and sticks in one's craw until one can neither eat nor breath.

Eventually I decided wholesale slaughter was the road to asphyxiation. I don't mind taking the occasional bite now and again, if other game's a bit thin on the ground, but it's only a hobby by comparison.

My point was that I wouldn’t call names and ridicule.
As you ask though, it would depend on the situation.
Mathematics is not the ability to add, subtract, divide and do long multiplication, although everybody is taught these “basics” in school. If a student learns “the basics” that’s ok, you wouldn't call them names and redicule them.
You don’t need to be a quantum physicist to get through life.
Quasi might tell you different though!




Probably not, but who’s to know what wyrd and wonderful things would have happened.




Neither can I, I agree completely, well apart from the Gods. Not sure about them yet.



Did I say that? I don’t think you can CHOOSE a pagan path without first learning something about it. If a person chose not to learn anything then I’d agree with you, “why bother?”



Yes well that’s just f*cked up! Don’t know how anybody can be that naïve!
I’ll admit there maybe some wires crossed here because I was refering to Weatherwitches first paragraph.

when I stated

Oh come on, its nice to go for a cuddly wuddly wiv da bunywuny abits inva wiblibibly woods.

bb
RamsHart

Is this the ickle wittle wabbit who's munched his way through the veg patch I was relying on for fresh veg this summer?!



Actually, I agree with her inasmuch as I know too many Pagans who shy away from the reality of nature.

It is, to me, bizarre: they profess to follow a path in tune with nature and yet they shy away from the realities of nature.

EG, the Pagan who watches a wildlife programme, and ooohs and aaaahs over the adorable antelopes and gets really upset and angry over the horrible, nasty lionness for killing said cute antelope.

Who will not "get" the necessary deer culls that have to take place, or that the rabbit for the pot is a meal for the family. Who will refuse to believe that some whales torment their prey for no other reason than for "fun".

That nature is not sweet, adorable, "cute".

That it has a terrible beauty, it's fierce, it's terrible, and it is sometimes cruel.

That blood and guts are involved just as much as the rainbow is.

And that the gods necessarily "nice" and biddable and "here to help".

Oh give it a rest! I've said more that once that I'm not a goddamn quantum physicist! but even that fact seems too hard for some people to accept!

That's very true, though you might be a bit narked if they started calling themselves a mathematician and claiming to have a PhD and stuff.
Especially if you happened to be a mathematician yourself....

Kristofski x

I was drunkenly constructing arguments all the way down the thread until I read Pomona's last post. And that pretty much covers what I would have wanted to say about the reasons that fluffies are annoying. Same thing as meat-eaters who refuse to accept that what they're eating once had eyes. Way of the world-- it can be VICIOUS. But that's all part of it. Everything doesn't exist to serve you and make you personally happy. (And that's the only thing that hasn't been covered yet-- it's VERY EGOCENTRIC to assume that your version of Happiness And Light is what is Best for everyone else in the world). But follow it right, do what's right for you, and it might.

Okay, drunken Ondia out, because her boyfriend is threatening to burn the apartment down if his computer doesn't reinstall a program correctly, and she has to help him because after all some of her stuff is here.

I agree that we need balance, we need to see the light and the dark. However, it takes time to build a relationship, when you first fall in love with someone, you see all there positives magnified and all their flaws are ignored. For a lot of pagans, the first steps in treading the path comes from books. The most accessible ‘literature’ out there on paganism tends to be the stuff that the majority of the pagan community seems to want to use as fire lighters.

However, books can’t teach you how to build and sustain a relationship with the land. Only time can, being in nature, observing the light and dark dance.

Love can be awfully blind, when you meet a chap or chappess, who you think is deities gift, eventually you bring him or her to have the grand inspection by your friends or family. They might see flaws that you have over looked. So, for me at least, UKP became that ‘grand family inspection’. Ideas I thought were ‘truths’ someone could gently point out might not be a historically accurate as the books that I had read suggested, or that it was completely necessary for me to wear so much occult jewellery/have so many pointy shiny things.



I think that critical thinking skills, especially when it comes to belief can be quite difficult skills to acquire. Being able to question often means you have to leave your comfort zone. I think that this is especially difficult for people fleeing a religion that told them X is the truth and who f**k are you to question it. People take comfort in books, there is an assumption that someone else has written and researched their topic thoroughly. It’s only when you hear or read a different perspective that you start questioning and positioning where you stand in relations to that different perspective.

The idea of recreating a totally historically accurate ‘paganism’ is a bit of a grail, mostly mythic and we’ll never get our hands on it. There are so many things that we just don’t know, sometimes we’re all just working on best guesses as far as our research goes and instinct. Look at any thread on the board and there isn’t a unified UKP pagan response, we all come with different perspectives, and I for one would soon sod of all we ever did was agree with each other.

I think that ‘rose tinted’ paganism is often a developmental milestone on a pagan path. You’ve got to be bloody confident that you can handle what you’ll see when you whip those specs off before you do.

Also, if someone wants to wear floaty green dresses and have a daily huggle off deity, if it works for them, if it floats their boat, I’m happy to leave them to it. As long as they’re not marching me out at gun point to chant along with them, and trying to convince me that their path is the only true, valid one.

However, if they invited me along, I’d give it a go to see how their way of doing things feels compared to they way I do it. I wouldn’t dismiss something before trying it, blindly dismissing something cannot be far off blindly accepting something. Who are any of us to judge someone else’s path, you might doubt the validity of historical claims that they make, but if it is effective for them live and let live.

Q

To an extent we are all rose-tinted pagans - although I'm not talking about the fluffy wabbit variety.

What I mean is that the way we view our respective paths and traditions (be they old or modern) is not necessarily based on reality. I know reality is different from person to person and how we view the world (and nature) is also slightly different. We bring our own meanings and translations to things which differ to other people's.

Some traditions go back a long way (heathenism, Greek-based ones and so on) but to an extent they are all reconstructions because we bring our own modern perception to them which is may be radically different to what the original followers would have seen or felt because we don't live in their culture and don't have the same concerns that they had (at least not all of them). Our experiences and our societies experiences do colour how we perceive things.

We also have an idealistic view of history (people always have had I think) which is not necessarily based on what really happened - because we'll never know what really happened. We'll never know what the meaning of Avebury was to the people who built it, for example. The Avebury we see today is a largely 20th century construction (the stones were buried in the 18th century and only dug up - those that survived - in the 1930s) and of course it is now Heritage managed. Our view of Avebury is coloured by everything that has happened before and our own modern world-view.

This isn't a bad or negative thing because it is very human and we all do it.

Firstly, whoever wrote "We all come from the Goddess" should be shot at dawn as a warning to anyone who feels like writing a bloody annoying chant.

Secondly, what sets mankind apart from animals is that we have reached a point in our evolution where we can enjoy nature and move away from the "red in tooth and claw". If I go out into nature to enjoy it, I am no longer just surviving as my ancestors did, the Gods/fate/whatever have made it so that we can go out and enjoy nature and be safe, secure and warm whilst doing it. We have the time to take pleasure in the beauty of the sunrise, the wild storms of the sea. Yes, nature is still dangerous if not respected, but we are removed from the harsh realities of "kill or be killed".

So yes I skip through the fields amidst the swaying poppies looking at the potential fur coats bunny rabbits. You might call it "rose tinted glasses", I call it optimism. Optimism that the world is as it should be, that my life is good, that the Gods have blessed me with another wonderful day, optimism that the food on my plate is healthy and worked for by people who are treated fairly and well. Pessimists may never be disappointed, but optimists have more fun getting there.

As for "love'n'lighters", some of the nastiest people I've ever met in paganism or anywhere else have been "love'n'lighters". Luckily most of them gravitate towards Glastonbury so they're easy to spot, and easy to avoid.

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Rhiannon

Hmm, not according to the lastest violent crime statistics, and then there's people who lost family members in the "War on Terrorism".

Wow - must be bad in Germany. Over in the UK violent crime is a rare event. The person most likely to murder you is your partner, your parents, your children (in that order). People are murdered every week, yet the media, for the most part, ignores it completely or is asked not to publicise it to prevent further killings. It's only when a murder is deemed "Newsworthy" that we get to hear about it through the media.

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs06/hosb0206.pdf has more information.

As for the "War on Terrorism" we aren't losing huge numbers. Yes, people are dying, and it's a dreadful thing that they are, but the vast majority of people are removed from this reality. Unless you're a soldier, or the family of the soldier (like me), then it's something that happens to other people on a box in the corner of the living room.

So I stand by my comments that the vast majority of the UK population are very removed from the "kill or be killed" rule of carnivores and omnivores.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6157944.stm

Not much domestic violence here, other than East Germans killing their newborns because they're often too daft to go through social services for a proper abortion or adoption. In fact all crime rates here were quite low (with the exception of Frankfurt) until the collapse of the East Bloc. Since then all kinds of low-browed mafiosies have been trying to overrun the place. This what both France and Germany are presently trying to sort out with the EU, especially where new member states are concerned.

Crime statistics may be flawed when it comes to a "soft" physical assault, that is one that doesn't require medical attention. However ALL stab wounds and bullet wounds, (and of course all murders), are dealt with and recorded by the police. If you attend hospital with a stab wound then the police are automatically called in whether you wish to report the crime or not.

OUCH! Mmmm it smarts Sooo much...
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RamsHart

What harm do they do when they do this?
Why ridicule them for doing it? It might not be your type of paganism, but as Queenie says

I can understand you getting p*ssed off by someone who does this

I would too.


You might not get it (neither do I) but my point is why do some feel the need to ridicule them for doing it?

I'm sure that with time they will realise the neccesety of the cull, that rabbit is lovely, that the lioness has cubs to feed and would starve if she didn't kill said cutee antolope, that whales, like us, have a sik sence of humor at times and that nuture, with all this in, is f*cking brilliant!




Who, in there right mind, would claim to have a PhD when they only knew the "basics"? They would all too soon be found out.
The thing is, those who have PhDs have all gone through the same set learning system and within a few degrees of each other know what each other have learnt.
Also I doub't that they would ridicule a first year student or prospective student for not having all the knowledge they have.
And besides...


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RamsHart
Ps Pamona, if you're having trouble with our furry friends you may want to find the rabbits run, and set one of these snares.