Another I thought some may be interested in reading. Normally I would just post a link here and a small snippet of the article, but the site I found it on is not east to read due to the background they are using, so I am going to copy the whole thing across to here and reference the site. Having said that I see they do not say where the article was published but I believe it was in issue 81 of The Cauldron.

Okay I've edited this post to remove the article and just replace it with a link due to copyright issues.

you can read the article in question in various places including the following WebArchive page.

Harvestmoon A. Chumbley Article

Thanks for that Herne.
I started to read it and then I saw the length of it(!, lol) so I've printed it out.

Blessings, Minty. xx

p.s it ran to 14 pages!!! lol

Umm yeah normally I wouldn't have posted it in it's entirety. lol I am printing it myself now

Was only five pages for me though.. probably font size I use.

That's an interesting read. Thankyou for posting it Herne

The fact that he uses 'Cunning folk' as a term for witches makes me wary, apart from anything else. 'Cunning folk' are said to often have worked against witches...

I've repeatedly read that Cunningman/woman was another term for the village witch/healer.

I've always got the impression (perhaps erroneously) that it was a delicate definition between cunningfolk and witch.

Cunningfolk weren't necessarily seen as witches per se, but people who had... skills. And those skills could include defence against witches who were generally perceived as wicked, nasty people to be avoided at all costs. There was a difference, a very fine one, but a distinction nonetheless.

As I say, could be wrong, but that's the impression I've had from the stuff I've read.

I reckon you're probably right actually .

I think that is kind of what Chumbley was saying when he said:



I've always had the same opinion as Pomona.

has anybody used the hagstone he mentioned? what sort of results did you get? (if thats not too personal question)

fizzy

There wasn't so much as a "delicate definition" between Cunning Folk and Witches as an intentionally clear one. One of the services offered by Cunning Folk was the seeking out of a witch. This service enabled Cunning Folk to pretty much avoid the various witch trials. In fact from 1670 onwards there were very few cases of Cunning Folk prosecuted at the assizes and beyond 1700, no record at all. Many of them were exceptional charlatans, most worked as a Cunning Man or Woman alongside a legitimate trade, Blacksmith being a popular one.

Although they avoided charges of Witchcraft, or Heresy as was often the charge, many were sued for things such as fraud and defamation (the latter being false accusations when hired to find out a theif etc).

Hmm.. I've thought about this but I'll add it, for what it's worth.

I had a friend who was devoted the "The Cauldron" and thought Chumley wonderful. I was never entirely sure whether the claimn she made for her trad were authentic or whether she'd made it up after reading "The Cauldron" However, she was heavily plugged in to that circuit, and probably still is. And she would wax lyrical about the hours Chumley devoted to researching the stuff her wrote about, and was especially overwhelmed when he interviewed her, for the details of her trad. All the others who were part of it were long since dead, of course, with only her left.

The problem I had with what she told me about Chumley (apart from his apparent lack of rigour (certainly as far as what she told him) in trying to test whether what he was told was true - but, again, how does one do that in these circumstances? - and I never quite felt that someone who had never worked and couldn't drive, and depended on his mother to look after all his material needs and his girlfriend to ferry him everywhere (from what the adoring fan told me about his life), had something missing.

But then again, maybe I'm just prejudiced because I hated his antique writing style!

Does anyone know if he actually got anything published anywhere that he didn't have to pay to get published?

he had some stuff published early on in 'chaos international' and also the typhonian OTO published some of his stuff in their journal 'starfire' (if they count as 'didn't have to pay to get published'...?

LUMI

The information on hagstones is nothing new - they have been used for quite some time! Yes, they work, with a variety of ways/usages and act as a means of focusing. The Brahan Seer was a famous user of the technique - and HIS stone WAS rather special!

Considering copies of the Golden Toad now fetch up to £3000 per copy, I think he did ok. Although that is the advantage of keeping everything to a limited edition.

I had the misfortune of selling a signed copy of the Azoetia (actually signed to the author Nigel Jackson from AC) slightly below market price not long before his death.

Yes, but couldn't you argue that was semantics, that the work being carried out by persons of both descriptions was pretty similar, and that it would merely take a viewpoint in whether you were perceived "good" or "bad" and therefore called "witch" or not?

The magic (or alleged magic in many cases) of Cunning Folk was heavily Christian in it's bias. They would draw from any available source, Roman Catholicism and Ceremonial Magic in it's various forms being very popular.

Since it's publication in 1531, Cornelius Agrippa's work was probably the most popular source. Cunning Folk would buy up any magical book or manuscript they could get their hands on, regardless of whether or not they could read as such items in their home would add to their image. These were business people operating behind a lot of smoke and mirrors, in many cases, nothing more than this.

Okay, so, then, in your view, what would be the difference between what they did and someone accused as a practising witchcraft?

Define your terms

A "Witch" back then (a badly reclaimed word nowadays IMHO) could be a herbalist, a cripple, a neighbour whose land you wanted, someone you didn't like, someone practicing magic for gain at anothers expense, someone who lived alone and away from the rest of the community, someone still practicing a pre-christian religion, maybe even some form of satanist, the list goes on.

"No change there then folks!" as the one eyed cripple lesbian procurer said to the leper! (Whilst stirring her cup of herbal tea...)

My definition would be broadly similar to yours : a herbalist, cripple (ugh, horrible word); neighbour whose land you wanted, someone you didn't like; someone who lived alone and away from the rest of the community.

I'd suggest: midwife, someone feared, agony aunt, someone who used charms as well as herbs to heal, someone well versed in the superstitions of the area, someone very perceptive of the lives around them (useful in fortune telling), someone probably illiterate. Quite probably someone who would recite remembered and handed-down, local area rhymes over various herbal concoctions to increase their efficacy, or when handing over treatments to "customers" would recommend the best timings for application, words to recite to increase the chances of them working. Not a definitive list by any means.



Do you mean for personal gain at another's expense? Or gain for the person who paid them at another's expense? Wouldn't the "for gain" and "at another's expense" be applicable to nearly all witchcraft practised? Even today? No matter what you do it will (a) always be for gain of some sort, else, why bother? and (b.) there will be someone down the line affected in some way. Surely leaving the sentence at "practising magic" would be enough?

Wouldn't that then apply to the Cunning Man/Woman?

Okay, my idea of what the Cunning Man/Woman would do/be: midwife, someone feared, someone who used charms as well as herbs to heal, agony aunt/uncle someone well versed in the superstitions of the area, someone very perceptive of the lives around them (useful in fortune telling), someone probably illiterate. Quite probably someone who would recite rhymes over various herbal concoctions to increase their efficacy, or when handing over treatments to "customers" would recommend the best timings for application, words to recite to increase the chances of them working. Not a definitive list by any means.

Pretty similar to my witch definition.

What else? Maybe someone respected in the village, considered eccentric enough to be left alone unmolested, someone whose land wasn't worth that much, maybe someone with some connections.

I would still propose that the skills and talents and services offered would be nigh on identical, just the perception of the outsider would determine whether they were regarded as Cunning Man or Witch.

Practising a pre-Christian religion? Um, let's just say I'd be very sceptical. WHAT religion?

Ditto Satanist. That might be how the villagers perceived and painted the person but if that were actually the case I'd be surprised. The "confessions" from the people charged with witchcraft during the 17thC make some lurid reading, but I'd be prepared to bet that only a tiny fraction of those caught (and un-caught) were "Satanists" in the way that society then perceived it.

[quote=Pomona,Apr 28 2007, 10:38 AM]
[[quote=Pomona,Apr 27 2007, 01:06 PM]

Practising a pre-Christian religion? Um, let's just say I'd be very sceptical. WHAT religion?

Ditto Satanist. That might be how the villagers perceived and painted the person but if that were actually the case I'd be surprised. The "confessions" from the people charged with witchcraft during the 17thC make some lurid reading, but I'd be prepared to bet that only a tiny fraction of those caught (and un-caught) were "Satanists" in the way that society then perceived it.

[/quote]


I'd be very sceptical too. Yes, there may have been pockets where elements of pre-Christian tradition (I'd hesitate to call it religion) survived, but I think that they were pretty few and far between. I imagine the majority of the people identified as witches and cunning folk were probably Christians to some extent.

If you take Iceland which adopted Christianity later than most of the rest of Europe, it's true that some traditions have been retained for longer and are stronger than elsewhere in Europe. Belief in elves for example (upwards of 60% of the population) and many of the old stories about trolls. Most of those same people who put out offering to their house elves, believe firmly that spirits reside in rocks and you have to ask their permission before you move them to build a road, and will warn you off going to certain places because a troll lives there, will also attend church on Sunday, call themselves Christian and be slightly puzzled if you think that's odd (like my grandma).

I'm always very cautious about claims re survival of pre-Christian religions. I'm not saying it hasn't happened, but I think it was usually in a form that people didn't consciously associate with religion.

Frey

LOL I am beginning to like you (no offense, it usually takes me a long time to like someone!).

The Satanist and Pre-Christian religion parts were a little "tongue in cheek", I thought I was humouring the masses there, evidently you are smarter than the "masses"

I would agree that the difference would mainly be the perception of the outsider. However, that perception would have been cultivated by the professional "cunning person" as it was a career rather than a practice. I feel the "witches" if indeed they were such rather than the various unfortunates I listed (I hate the term cripple too but I was making a point, anyone "different") were people of such practices such as heralists, midwives etc. The "Cunning Folk" made a point of appearing to be of the Christian persuasion, even when Christianity tried to list them along with witches. This was a career rather than what some outcast practiced in their "little house in the woods" as the assizes would lead us to believe.

I would suggest that anyone interested in the difference between "Cunning Folk" and those hanged for heresy (not burned for witchcraft, please reference history not crap Llewellyn books) read Owen Davies book "Cunning Folk". Although currently selling for fairly horrendous amounts of money as 1st edition out of print hardback, it is due out shortly in paperback at £12.99.

If this post has grammatical errors, please excuse me, it is the 7th anniversary of my handfasting and I am a little drunk to say the least!

In much of the historic works I've read Cunningfolk were seen as being like witches with the same powers, but also acted against witches. As Pomona says a " a delicate definition between cunningfolk and witch."


I'm sure there's been discussions on here about hagstones before fizzy, I have one that's very powerful & very useful



There really is little difference today then as the word witch is still used in derogatory fashion. Also in that list above, a witch would quite simply have been of the wrong christain faith at the time (ie. catholic versus prostestant) or one who supported an opposing political party. The witchcraft trials rocketed at times of civil war & unrest which also gave futher meaning to the name. To call someone a witch gave you power over them, gave you the ability to steal their life through superstition, misunderstanding & malice through the courts, or by sheer public opinion.

There really is little difference today then as the word witch is still used in derogatory fashion. Also in that list above, a witch would quite simply have been of the wrong christain faith at the time (ie. catholic versus prostestant) or one who supported an opposing political party. The witchcraft trials rocketed at times of civil war & unrest which also gave futher meaning to the name. To call someone a witch gave you power over them, gave you the ability to steal their life through superstition, misunderstanding & malice through the courts, or by sheer public opinion.

[/quote]


Unfortunately true. Must be just human nature, as even some pagans, who should know better, also sometimes fall into this same trap of 'mine is older/ more authentic/less fluffy than yours.

When it comes to magic, the only thing that matters is whether you can do the things you want to do, and feel good about yourself.

The rest is pagan politics, other people's egos, and your own doubts.

Can't resist a cackle - to think that the Witchfinder General got his just desserts - accused of Witchcraft and burned! He he!

With all due respect what difference did it actually make if Chumbley didnt work,depended on his mother or got his girlfriend to drive him around?What was missing?Im sorry but to me it seems your prejudice stretches beyond his writing style.

I very reasonable question, but one which demands an answer at greater length then the time I have immediately available. I'll return to this tonight or tomorrow.

I can't drive either- it doesn't make me not worth listening to. What does a driving license have to do with anything? Not having a go, just interested...

Hokay, let me try to unpack this a little.

First, let me clear that by 'work' I am not confining my thinking to paid work. Indeed, some forms of paid work, such as those one does in near total isolation from anyone else, have less value in the context I am placing this in. For me 'work' is a multifaceted symbol. It can imply:
(1) that one is sufficiently socialised to obtain, and hold down, a paid job
(2) that one is capable of producing a product that is subject to critical demand, and has to work with others and be flexible in order to shape it to those demands
(3) that one is able to run an organisation that requires the meeting of needs of others, negotiating deadlines and resource, and involving recurrent self discipline to meet those needs, in a way that enables the organisation to function
(4) that one recognises demands on one's time and is able to deliver products or outcomes (a fancy word from non-quanitifiable things) that satisfy those who pay you, or your colleagues, or your family etc etc

Now most of us should be able to meet at least one of those criteria, whatever sort of work we do, paid or unpaid (including running a family). some of the barriers are quite low - for example, I've met an awful lot of under-socialised people in paid employment - sometimes relatively or very highly paid - who were total shites in terms of getting on with people. But they had to make some sort of adjustment to others, however inadequately, otherwise the money would stop.

What I tend to distrust is someone who isn't physically prevented from working (either biologically or socially) yet doesn't work, and chooses to be totally dependent upon others meeting her/his needs. That smacks to me of something missing - as though the person wishes not to grow up. (And pure selfishness, for example, is simply another form of not growing up - of remaining at an age of two or less).

So whether one has paid work, and whether one can drive, are not things that, in themselves, are relevant to me; but when they fit together with other things, I do sit back and wonder what it tells me about the individual.

And yes, I know that 'Amadeus' taught the lesson that genius and morality were not connected. But I'm not talking about morality here. Rather, I wonder that, if someone is so far divorced from ever having to subject any of what they do either to negotiate the needs of others in their life, or take into account other views and desires, they can manage to be, at the very least 'grounded'. And if not grounded, then what prevents them from living in a dream world where they no longer have any grasp of reality, and simply create their own rules?

I know that some geeks in the Sci-Fi world have made a mint from their geekdom. I recall, for example, a book being produced, and selling well, on the subject of technical production errors in the early Star Trek series. I have no issue with that - for Star Trek geeks. But outside the ST world, if you try to persuade me that that book will inform me about life, or even about Sci Fi in general, all it will tell me is that some people can spend their lives producing books about how many angels dance on the head of the pin, which are rapturously received by others as though it had any significance.

And at least the Star Trek book was objectively researched.

But again,what has any of that got to do with Andrew Chumbleys personal life and his expertise in what he wrote?you have answered my attack on what I see as secular prejudices with an attempt to analogise his work with Star Trek and other Sci-Fi writings.
This is not a defence on Chumbley but a stand against assessing written works per se within the parameters of an authors failure to meet ones own personal criteria.

(edited to remove the entire previous post to save everyone reading through it again)

Er...it's a question of grounding. Well, it is for me, anyway. In this context what I mean by 'grounding' (which is more in line with the meaning given the word by the Quakers than the way it's usually used in pagan circles) is the ability to make connections between Midearth and the other worlds. If I've failed to adequately explain my thinking I'm not sure how to make myself clearer. The grounded people I know are those whose connections are (IME) the most reliable. The consistently ungrounded, OTOH, though capable of great things - in magic as well as Midearth - are not the best judges of the effects they produce, in any world. Indeed, they often leave messes of large proportions for others to clear up, at some metaphysical expense.

Sorry, RH, I don't think I can produce any better explanation, and this is only my opinion. YMMV.

Tas's tuppence worth: MY own personal criteria? Hmm. I'd LOVE to be able to devote myself solely to my Path, without having to juggle the demands of life with work, teens, OH, bills etc etc.

But - whether having the undoubted luxury of being a "kept woman" would somehow make me more effective in what I do - that's a bit like asking how long is a piece of string!

Having said this, I imagine it would. Being able to focus on ME is a luxury I and many others (I assume) would relish, though it might be self-defeating as we all need a reality check from time to time. When we get too far up our own backsides, the Universe has a nasty habit of "nudging" us to redress the balance!

The propagation of Self to the aggrandizement of I has always been the Magicians aim.But there must be balance and this is worked out on the physical plane with work,bills,teens etc.as you say.Else Self ultimately manifests as Selfishness-which has no place on any Path.

That's one way of puting it HR!

But despite diagnosing that a person might be bewitched,Cunning Folk often DID find themselves prosecuted for witchcraft.The prime illustration is the case of the Cunning Man who had failed to heal a sore on a woman who had sought out his service.Found in possession of a written magical charm,it seems he was ironically charged with causing a deterioration of her malady and prosecuted at the Norfolk Sessions in 1654.(NRO.MSS41A)
Another mainstay of the Cunning Folk 'library' was 'Occult Physic'(Anon.1660)which mixed astrology with herblore and this seemed to have found acceptance amongst the judiciary if not with the more Puritan writers.A bigger problem was the linking of Cunning Woman with Brothel-keeping,and that,in Italy at least,developed a conclusion that witchcraft and prostitution went hand in hand.

Temple prostitutes...

No that was before

Get away? Really?

Its rather different in form and has little to do with witchcraft.

Do you mean that witchcraft as you understand it started later than that or that witchcraft runs later or parallell to those (Roman) practises?

It wasnt so much witchcraft rather than the prostitution that was pasted onto it.This followed assumptions that some of the Cunning or Wise Women also kept brothels.Demarcation became increasingly blurred as time passed.
Temple Prostitutes were from a much earlier era.

The Church was always eager to discredit women - they after all used their filthy feminine wiles to tempt men (re Adam & Eve etc) & the bible (OT & NT) is stuffed with mysoginist injunctions to beware women's temptations.

It was perfectly natural to condemn so-called Witches and cunning folks for the sin of harlotry - no mention of course of their clients!

Temple prostitution, as most will already be aware, is another matter entirely, the term "prostitute" having had entirely different connotations to today's understanding of the practice.

Look up Inanna et al.

I think Moonhunter is alluding to the maxim "if you haven't got your mundane life together, how can you expect to have your magical life together".

(exept life is usually exchanged for another word)

Rhiannon

As in "Life happens?"

Tas adds "and one large shovel please" to her Santa list!

I dont see shortcomings in the mundane life having any bearing on the magical persona.

I kinda know what you mean there. Everything else can be going to hell in a handbasket and the one thing that keeps you sane is that the otherside of you is"right". But there is an argument for being more able to focus and find balance on your magical life if your muggle ( LOVE that word, I really think we should adpot it ) life is running smooth. I suppose it really depends on the person.

"Muggle"? Arghle.

(But I know what you're getting at! Couldn't we find an alterantive handle? And is this another thread?)