Who said anyting about government? Do i seem like a person who ever listens to what governments say? Authority means many things.
And i don't see what legal has to do with anything once we have determined that we are going to talk of such things anyway. If you think that agaric or similar have anyting in common with cannabis and a bodhran perhaps you shouldn't try experimenting.

On that note :

From the Science and Technology - Fifth Report to the House of Commons relating to the misuse and classification of drugs (UK):

"Sir Michael Rawlins, Chairman of the ACMD*, told us: "I have no idea
what was going through the minds of the group who put it in Class A in
1970 and 1971…It is there because it is there". The Home Office has
admitted that it has never conducted any research into psilocin use
and that there is "no clear evidence of a link between psilocin use
and acquisitive or other crime"

Rather amusing.

* ACMD = Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs

You can find the full report here: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/c...1031/103102.htm

after id slept i realised id forgotten a few books id recommend..

surprisingly.. Graham Hancock's 'Supernatural' ! i usually avoid him.. but it seems for once he may have got over himself/his theories a little. this book also has a very good overview of the 'Lewis-Williams' research into cave/rock art that Gyrus has recently talked about.

daniel pinchbeck's 'breaking open the head'.. by no means an 'authority'.. this is the tale of a disillusioned booze soaked journalist from new york who takes an assignment to go and write about a tribal group using iboga...and finds more than he bargained for:) a romping read too.

Dale Pendell- has written a series of books on a whole range of plants and how he related to them as 'allies'. each entry has 'scientific' information interwoven with his poetic appreciation and stuff like dreams he's had (rather like Schulke's books) . ive only ever browsed a friends copy though,, so cant say more...HOWEVER.. 'Three Hands Press' , a new publishers related to Xoanon, are looking to release some of his works (along with reprints/new works by Andrew Chumbley/ Micheal Howard/ Daniel Schulke ! )

DMT- the spirit molecule- the author obtained permission from U$ authorities to do a medical study of DMT (one of the active parts of ayahausca). after the kneejerk reaction of the sixties even scientific research into psychedelics was outlawed!!

http://www.amazon.com/DMT-Molecule-Revolut...s/dp/0892819278


and finally.. not for the faint hearted... (drumroll)

True hallucinations by Terence (& Dennis) Mckenna. in fact ALL Mckenna's work is essential IMO, but true hallucinations is the most 'fun'. a mix of jungle adventure and alchemical masterwork ;-) what more could u want ?!


woozle said.'And anyway I'm not sure though that it is appropriate in today's society' etc..


IMO the context IS the human nervous system.. the experience is timeless/not restricted to culture.

as for society, we find ourselves living in an over-populated, alienated society that is killing the very planet it lives on through it greed and shortsightedness. do we really have anything to 'lose'


Lumi

A few years back Channel Four I think it was did a series called Sacred Weeds I've just found the program they did on Fly Agaric on Youtube. These progs were well worth watching as far as I am concerned.

Sacred Weeds Fly Agaric - Part 1

Sacred Weeds Fly Agaric - Part 2

Sacred Weeds Fly Agaric - Part 3

Sacred Weeds Fly Agaric - Part 4

Sacred Weeds Fly Agaric - Part 5

Check out some of the other episodes there as well. Youtube Sacred Weeds search

or you can watch Four episodes on Google Videos

Sacred Weeds - Amanita Muscaria

Sacred Weeds - Salvia Divinorum

Sacred Weeds - Henbane

Sacred Weeds - Blue Lilly

My point was that you seem to think one drug is ok and another is not. Canabis is JUST as capable of screwing you up and if you dont know that, maybe you should lay off both it and the bodhran. The other part to my point was that they all fall into the same class of drugs. So... who exactly is going to be your "authority"? Who do you think this information should come from? I mean, you advocate canabis and then get all holier than tho and peevish about other "similar" drugs. Why is that? Is it because you have decided one is ok and another isnt? What informed that decision? Where exactly do you think people should get this sort of information?

Personally, Im with Jape on this. I cant think of better people to discuss this with. Adults, with informed opinions, based not just on research, but experience and a healthy dose of common sense.

Im not saying you dont have those Woozle, in fact, I appreciate your points made earlier, I just cant accept or understand your POV on discussing this here.

Hmmm. Some of the books mentioned here sound useful - and thanks for the links to Sacred Weeds - I'd forgotten that, interesting series.

All my experiences with liberty cap (it used to be legal then!) were useful. I did drop a tab once at a festival, and spent the whole trip bored senseless, waiting for it to turn off.

All my hallucinogenic experiences were done in a spirit of searching, before I was able to articulate what I was searching for or knew anything about shamanic paths or wicca. I would be quite interested to do explore this again sometime in the future, but I'm not too bothered.

Fascinating to see what different things all these things mean to other people.

And does the academic/literature validation of these substances and their effects make a trip more meaningful, or indeed more valid, or is an "uneducated" approach to the plant simply naive or more honest?

In reply to jape
Ever the great magus eh jape?! Your knowledge and wisdom and experience obviously knows no bounds.
Your last paragraph creased me up but then your truth is obviously the only truth.

To xalle
read what you want into my words but do not say i advocate the use of cannabis because i don't.

To everyone else, sorry if i appear insulting or offensive. It's not my intention (and never is).
As for my ignorance, well maybe i am but then each is ignorant in his own way. But i apologise for mine anyway
Perhaps i should limit myself to talking about the weather or gardening as a safer option and not delve into the domain of the experts.

ok.. we'll split hairs... you use it but dont advocate it.

Still didnt answer my question if not here where, and if not us who?

Been reading this and I am a bit bemused at some of the angsty defensiveness being displayed - but - it's a free world I suppose. Unless of course you're trapped in the flashbacks and dealing with nasties from some previous bad trip. Which I know to have happened with a few (albeit relatively few) folks who have taken hallucinogens.

All part of finding out. Like riding a bike. Or discovering that maybe Russian roulette isn't such a nice game after all.

Thin, the wonderful chap who took his alsation for a walk on the moors the day before heving to have her put to sleep - IMO that's a bit selfish. Or else it's a stretch of the imagination...

If she was THAT far gone, how on earth was she fit enough to go walkabout?

My views? I shall continue to read from my position sitting on the fence. Some things are personal.

I find this remark so offensive
Are you incinuating that we don't take our paths seriously, someone who lives their "path" is an authoritative source.

One of the problems of sharing your path and the use of "drugs" in it is there is always someone calling you a flaky,wierdo,loopy,druggy or your just having a laugh, it is highly offensive and a very blinkered view, and when we try to explain it we are then chastised incase someone young might read it. So basically no one except the OP has told of any of there own actual experiences good or bad.

And I shall continue to do so. I've been called much worse in my time Condescension never bothered me either, I just ignore the t!ts and strive forward in the hope of meeting healthy like-minded folk. If I'd never started this sort of waffle I'd never have met Lumi for instance. If others didn't, we wouldn't have such wonderful books as we have. Long live the line-walker.

Ach I know, just a bit fed up with it lately

The only substance I have used within a ritual context is Some very strong Skunk. I did find it great to use for an aid to meditation and visualisation it made it much easier to get "into the zone" and really feel that connection with the place I was at the time (middle of the woods leaning against a big oak tree)... it is something I would do again though I have stopped smoking now so would possibly bake with it instead of smoke it... which would give a different hit and possibly a different angle to the spirit of the drug.

For me personally I haven't used any hallucinogens because I would be too nervous of the effect, and would be spending too much time worrying about going on a bad one, as such I would get little out of it. (though maybe a bad one would actually gain me much insight too in it's own way)

Jesus and we wonder why the world is so fucked up!!
Did i mention paths? My capacity to offend amazes me, i must find a use for it.
l'll rewrite the phrase.
"I" would much rather read about it from some AUTHORATIVE SOURCE (my mate Tabs for example who is very knowledgable and who i know well but yes even medial texts, reserches etc.would do for me) than from a discussion with people who (as far as i know) MAY only have used it once or twice (if that) and even then MOST PROBABLY (because most people who take drugs do it for recreation adn not for serious spiritual resons) for (what i consider to be) the wrong reasons (i.e. nothing to do with sprituality) and whose degree of loopiness (FROM 0-100% - the world is full of loopy people and i don't think here is any different. As we are only writing on here and i don't have people in front of me i can only sumise as to whether people conform to MY ideas of normality and in any case i wrote) I CANNOT BE SURE OF.

So as for flaky types etc. Are you really so insecure that you worry about a bit of name calling? Anyway why would i have a go at myself? I've done enough stuff to get my blue peter badge but i regret it enormously and with hindsight am quite embarassed that i at one time believed that doing drugs would help me with the spiritual. IMO I never really needed drugs to find the spirit world that i was interested in finding . I just had drug induced experiencesIMO.
I do not wish to share my peronal experineces because they are not particularly relevant and anyway anything remotely spiritual that i may have experienced is personal to me and as you will have gathered by now i am not in favour.
Basically although commenting, you too are not sharing your experiences so why don't you start the ball rolling as the OP intended.

!!!

I want to talk about this actually

I've had a couple of experiences, including one on a very non-organic substance, whereby I've just sat through it, bored! It could have been an alcohol mix reaction. I felt like the swami. I know the stuff I was taking was okay as it's been fine before and again after, but on these two occasions I'd enjoyed a little drink beforehand. When I took it, I became totally sober again and just wanted to go to bed. I was tired and disinterested. The first time I was gobsmacked, according to anything I'd ever read that certainly wasn't a 'normal' response - was it even physically possible? I spoke to others who had taken it and none of them reported the same thing. I wondered later on if it was a reaction to the person I was with although it did happen to the other person I took it with the second time. It was truly bizarre. With PCs I find there's a come-down point where I can feel suddenly sober and apathetic/lethargic. Not often, but sometimes. I reckon it's just something about me, or a particular chemical reaction going on that nulls it - well, a combination of both. The entheogenic null.



Is that the same as the thread on 'if science could validate magic, would it still be magic?'

Fight the good fight

(that should have been Lumi and Heathenheck...)

Just to clarify bored - it was the kind of active boredom that you get when somebody you don't like at a party traps you in the corner! Extremely irritating! The reason I was so bored was because the drug state was very one dimensional (lots of pretty colours but emotionally colourless) and I am used to feeling this way one second, that way the next... I enjoy the quicksilver impulsive responses I have to everyday life, even if they get me onto trouble sometimes, and I found myself missing the "company of me". Other more organic experiences have been much more interesting, but it isn't something that I have any great desire to do any more - maybe that was the lesson!

Could well be. I know I've had times when I really haven't wanted to put aside the time for a trip. I have to be very careful when I think about one - I'm a bit of an impatient person and I can always think of something to amuse myself with, giving up life-time for a trip into the spirit realms isn't always something I feel like doing particularly and when I have, I've had that bored sensation. It is interesting. Not in danger of becoming psychologically addicted to anything any time soon

It took my ages to see them all, but I managed to watch these 5 parts and they were very interesting. I would tend to go with it enhancing what we already know, but I haven't tried it have I!

Psilocybin mushrooms are relatively safe, but Fly Agaric should be avoided if you value your brain cells. Amanita Muscaria contains two psychoactive alkaloids, ibotenic acid and muscimol. Ibotenic acid is an excitotoxin - it kills nerve cell bodies whilst leaving transient fibres intact - like its sister compound Kainic Acid, and is used as a tool by neuroscience researchers on rats. Having seen what this compound can do I wouldn't touch fly agaric with a proverbial barge pole. Even though most of the ibotenic acid is converted to muscimol before it reaches the brain, not all is taken out of the system, so I would advise strongly against taking this particular risk.

Wow, what a lot of videos there are about this subject! I watched the 'Sacred weeds - Fly agaric' set. It seemed to have a bit from a different programme in it, because in part 2 they were all set to try out fly agaric, and in part 3 it was different people and they were doing some Egyptian lily.

It was all very interesting, but no conclusions were reached. You can see the taking of mind altering substances either as a spiritual experience of another reality, or as a chemically induced change in brain function. It would seem that you can't even predict what the experience will be like, and the subjects were having different experiences from each other.

I am not persuaded that I, for example, would gain anything by trying these things. Even if there are insights to be had through it, there is such a risk of harm that it doesn't seem like the method of choice, given that you can gain insights through all sorts of life experiences. For example, reading books seems to me to be a relatively safe and potentially limitless option for learning, growing and enhancing one's ability to make the most of life. Or indeed, just talking to people.

Aye, indeed Julai, I agree with you in some respects, however does the *chemically* induced brain function bring on a *state* of spiritual experience of another reality

This seems to me to be the key, subjective or objective

The way I see things is there are two types of knowledge - head knowledge and soul knowledge. Books, interacting with people are great for head knowledge, but not for experiencing other realities or worlds - although I'm not advocating nor condoning the use of chemical aids but they are not what I would chose.

Julai, entheogens are both chemical and spiritual, you do not need to separate. You are both flesh and soul intertwined - change one you change the other. Low in spirits leads to illness, physical illness leads to spiritual lows etc. It's a balance. The chemical reaction of entheogens is always fascinating and important to understand. However, chemicals are the key to many doors and as much as a trip is part chemical, it is also part something else, part spiritual. Same with the chemical/spiritual process involved in eating and what we put in our gob-holes on a daily basis

As Lumi said, if you want to understand better the individual reaction to the same dose and substance, check out Timothy Leary's information on Set & Settings it's hugely important to entheogenic use. Many people attribute it to the spirit of the plant/substance, which could still be a subtle chemical interaction - but same rose, different name.

It's not really that strange though, surely? Endogenous dreaming, every night of our lives, is build on the strongest hallucinogen known to man: DMT and can you predict exactly what's going to happen every time you close your eyes?

This essay may be of interest.

http://www.world-mysteries.com/sci_gridlines.htm

Interesting article. Not sure about the opener though: In the very early years of his evolution, man only worshipped that which he could not control. When he looked up at the sky he saw the Sun – and at night, the Moon and stars. Much later he observed the movement of the planets, and these were perhaps among the very first things that he worshipped, as he did not have any control over their movements across the sky. Indeed, it was perceived that these “Gods” of the sky actually controlled the lives of mankind, through the cycles of the seasons and the connection of the planets movements with nature.

Purely speculative of course but never been sure about sky-obsession until a bit later in time - and Stone Henge is later. I think man probably worshipped/acknowledged the things far closer to him at first: animals and weather. This idea of looking up to the heaves... not sure. Of course the stars were important but the sky itself was often a singular god or goddess - night sky and day sky. Yes it would come as an overwhelming fascination, but the things that are more immediately close to us tend to have the greater pull. I'd imagine animal spirits/totems and weather gods to be more firmly recognised at first than separating out planetary gods or maybe even fertility/conceptual gods.

'Sun God' . . . the Moon a Goddess actually, gender reversal in many cultures.

The planets were given names - not until muuuuch later in our history we can probably assume.

I don't hold with this 'control' business and I don't think man bestowed god upon things originally - that's not how an animist mindset works.

Already it seemed that man's ego would not allow him to believe in any higher power that did not look and behave like ordinary man,

Sorry but this article is shite. The Celts didn't tend to humanised their gods in art (which the Romans found very strange) tough they often did as animals or objects. This article is very opinionated and generalised. I really think these guys are assuming a hell of a lot from a modern perspective. They talk about 'early man' then refer to the resurrection of the Pharaohs...

They really haven't referenced any of this.

and from these early concepts came an insight into the importance of morality and the learning of right thought and behaviour. - highly sceptical. If Kim's here she can recount her thesis on voodoo dolls and poppets lol

I think these guys are talking out their arses mostly. Sacrifices mostly taking place at powerpoints in the land? No, archeologically of course they'll be best preserved at such sites, but shamanic cultures today sacrifice happens wherever the ritual does and that's not always static, and if it is, the place itself is made a powerpoint rather than putting it on a 'power line'. People in 'primitive' or 'under-developed' cultures (as these two twits seem to like to say), don't think like that - maybe they haven't read the article yet

This is absolute crock from the perspective of an animist culture. To be fair, ley lines are highly questionable at all in the way we have developed them in the UK. Perhaps China/Asia is a better place to look and read around the subject.

All of the above can sound distinctly “New Age”, however, there is growing evidence for the science, which backs such ideas and indeed shows these New Age concepts to be especially “Old Age”. - go on then, reference some, I dare you I don't mind opinions I disagree with but in this context it really needs back-up.

Sorry, I flicked through the final chapter.

So we have established, that first of all man had only worshipped those things that he had no control over, - how have we established that? Oh yes, that's right, you said so Silly me.

Whatever this theory of mind matrix - yes, it's been mentioned before by more academic types and there's maybe something to it in modern psychology. But it's not what the animist mind perceives or uses to interpret what it experiences. This is the important split I think. I think we make far too much out of it, I really do.

Sorry Tas - usually love your article selections but this one was a bit wet

PMSL! Glad to see you're still on the button pet!

(I only said it was "interesting" - maybe I should have added "coffs" in brackets? Ah - but that would spoil the fun!)

can i just ask ,how do you know you are having a genuine spiritual moment when taking these substances and are not just stoned
i experimented with drugs back in my 20 s(that probably acounts for my terrible memory) and i cant say there was anything spiritual about it,i ask this question in a genuine spirit of curiosity so dont shoot me

I'm not entirely convinced that you could tell the difference. I've also done a these things in my teens and twenties. Some would say there is no difference and I suppose it's down to individual interpretation.

so it could be just a chemical reaction in your brain then and nothing to do with going on a spiritual journey,im finding it hard to explain what i am trying to say here

Indeed, I did persactly the same & gained nowt whatsoever. I had a really bad Acid trip, what did I learn from that ???

DONT FECKIN BOTHER WITH DRUGS !!!"

Very good point. Surely if the spirit world could really be accessed through the use of drugs everyone would have the same perceptions and experiences but it usual works out that if you're an artist you see art, if you're a musician you discover music an animal communicator wil be able to talk to animals and if you're a pagan you experience the spiritual and so on. There are many more people out there who don't give a damn about the spirtual, taking drugs for pleasure and fun than those who give a spiritual excuse for taking drugs so how do they fit in?
And if there is the spiritual what are bad trips all about then?

Please, please, please read the previous reply to Julai regarding chemical/spiritual. Post 15 on this page. Just can't be bothered to repeat myself

Regarding stoned v. spiritual - set and setting again. What did you go into it expecting? Building a relationship with a drug or a food or a meditation technique takes time. You work at it. Not a short-cut to spirituality, you put some effort into learning and developing. Saying 'man, I dropped some acid in my 20s and tripped out, but it wasn't spiritual man' - no shit Sherlock

Best wishes,

Marion.

Actually, it also depends hugely on what you consider to be a 'spiritual experience' and what the substance wanted to give you at that time. That's the thing about entheogens, you're not calling the shots.

That's what I was thinking too.

As I wrote , some people don't need (need as in, need the help of) drugs to have these kind of vivid/spiritual (whatever you wanna call them) experiences. I just feel that for myself , if I ever achieved these experiences without the aid of drugs, they would seem more 'real' and credible to me, than if I had used something.

I never though of that, perhaps that's it. If you already have the spiritual then what need of drugs? But then if you don't or if you are not happy with the amount of spiritual then i can see why you might want to try.

It is up to each individual, but to suggest you can have entheogenic experiences without the entheogen...it's a neurochemical impossibility. Although you do experience one type each night whilst dreaming, when your endogenous MAOIs kick-starts a DMT/tryptophan/pinoline reaction. So however sober you consider yourself to be, you are tripping your tits off until the sun comes up (and in order to do that you have to get the essential acid which makes it happen by eating certain foods - so isn't a 'natural state' your body can make happen on its own).

But yurs. It's fine never to have those experiences, it is of course individual choice, but you'll be working at it a very long time if you think you can make it happen on a cup of coffee and some rice crackers.

Then i'll just 'dream my tits off' and bin the coffee and rice crackers
As you wrote, it's an individual choice. I'm not suggesting that you should or that you shouldn't

Entheogens are not the only way to enter different realms and experience different things. Alcohol can do it for some, but not others. Different people react to things in many ways, not all of them good. Drugs are not necessary for shamanic journeying and not all shamans use them to achieve this.

It should be impossible for humans to be able to embalm themselves - but some Buddhist monks do at the end of their life. And I hear some people say that if it's not chemically induced then it's not a real journey. And I think to myself, what a narrow and arrogant view.

Wulf, alcohol is an entheogen!

But last sentence of first paragraph is absolutely spot-on.

I left-out mentioning yogis, swamis and Buddhist monks, given that none of us are that or ever likely to be that. I never said drugs were the only way - but each substance and each meditation/trance/diet/thought technique takes you to the spirit of that substance or technique, and they are all vastly different. So to suggest entheogens are the only way to go somewhere would be as wrong as to suggest you can go to each of those places, open each of those doors, without the right key.

It's quite a common happenstance for hallucinogenics to be overlooked. Most people that still use naturally occuring psychotrophics often get discounted as druggies and ne'r do wells by the rest of the spiritual community. I find this rather offensive to be honest, as we know full well, for want of a better phrase, many many 'holy people' throught history have been totally off their tits.

I think the key is to approach it properly and take it seriously. If your doing it for spiritual reasons, do it for those. If you want to use it to get off your head, do it for that. In my younger days I took alot of man made hallucinogens. I'm not sure I would now, well maybe, for old times sake

Can't remember who pointed it out first in this monster thread, but it is part of tradition, and part of tradition that should evolve with us.

I have read this thread with great interest. And can only offer my experiences and opinions.
Certain drugs do take you to a place of spiritual thought and enlightenment. You see things differently, feelings are enhanced, inventions created. I have taken many and at the time thought it was wonderful.
HOWEVER, by gods am i paying for all that 'enlightenment' now!!
Severe anxiety, depression, agoraphobia, irrational thoughts, manic behaviour.
I have NO doubt in my mind that these difficulties that i have now ( not all the time! ) are attributed to my drug taking in my teens/twenties!
So yes, you can have great spiritual experiences( if that's what they truly are) but are they REALLY worth the risk of the aforementioned side effects?? Trust me they most certainly are not.

Well and courageously stated Naneva.

i didnt go into expecting anything ,im not disputing the fact that you might have to work at it etc ,i simply wanted to know if or how you tell the difference between a spiritual journey and just being stoned,i dont see how you will ever know if the experience was genuine ,its like saying witches used to fly on broomsticks ,no they didnt they took substances to make them think they were flying ,so really they were imagining it under the influence ,ie stoned
im not suggesting for a minute that my dropping an acid tab is anything like what you are referring to
the last sentence is not what i said either,i know i have had some strange experiences while under the influence,i have also had some while not under the inlfuence(not spiritual ,paranormal) but i still dont know how i would tell the difference

this says it all for me,they most certainly are not worth it

I'm quite shocked that in all this high and mighty discussion about *drugs* that no-one has mentioned that Amanita Muscaria ("Fly Agaric"), which can be dried for a couple of days by tying it to your shower curtain and then enjoyed as half a mushroom per person, is very similar to Amanita Phalloides ("Death Cap") which will kill you fucking stone dead just like that. I mean a small bite.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amanita_phalloides

I know, the pictures look different, but if you watch Fly Agaric as it grows its colours change, as do those of Death Cap, and they can look *very similar* for a while. Be very careful.

Or as another poster suggested, go for Psylocybin cubensis and friends http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psylocybin which are far safer. Just look out if you break the stalk and it goes blue, you have the wrong species and need to worry about cyanins.

Regards,
Peter

K.
Why?

It means you have the wrong genus/species and it will make you feel ill :-)

Another possibly of interest to space cadets is Ipomoea
http://www.erowid.org/plants/morning_glory...ing_glory.shtml.

Best, Peter

Fortunately or unfortunately these days the seeds are treated with a persistent rapid acting poison which means you can-t get enough of the seeds down you to have much effect before you start to vomit.