Just saw this on the RH update e-mail:

Green Events has an article this month on plant spirit medicine and our adventures to the Amazon and Andes, while Sacred Hoop has an article on fly agaric and its use as a sacrament....The Green Events website is http://www.greenevents.co.uk/ and Sacred Hoop is http://www.sacredhoop.org/.

As it's such an integral part of Western European shamanism and British folklore, I thought it deserved a thread of its own and wondered whether people would like to share their experiences?

I've only tried it the once and it wasn't the most freshly prepared, which I know makes a difference as with liberties the spirit of the plant ages and alters as the flesh of the mushroom itself does. Freshly prepared is often more potent and pleasurable.

I can't remember the dose I took but it was quite small and I found it had a strange effect very different to the PCs. I actually found myself getting quite up-tight and angsty. I didn’t want to sit still and headed into that half-way zone of not quite all up and not down either. When I finally did come down I was left with the impression that it was a very 'male' experience. That there was in aggression in it (or rather that it found an aggression within me) that wasn't so comfortable. Yet it was the female shamans of Siberia that often had the greatest use for it.

I found it very interesting and would like to re-visit one day when/if I return to the UK. I think the ritual of collecting for oneself is important and wouldn't buy ready-prepared again.

I was wondering how other people have found it and whether they would be willing to share personal experiences.

Yes i can give you my experiences...
Sitting in A&E all night while a mate who decided he wanted to be a shaman obviously vomited and shat his guts out and scratched at his cheeks. Nobody knew what he had taken and he didn't want to say. And he had taken the right mushroom too!!
I wouldn't advise anyone on an open forum taking LSD or any hallucinogenic drug and certainly not agaric. Just ever so slightly irresponsible. It goes back to the problem of before, should we not have a closed section for those wanting to show off their intimate knowledge of things weird.

Thanks for your input Woozle. Noted. Perhaps you might like to start another thread for 'why entheogens aren't part of modern Paganism' or 'should we have a special group for these discussions'. You might like to contact Sacred Hoop too and voice your opinions, and Erowid whilst you're at it. There's lot of sites could use your guidance.

The advice I've seen in books and from different people is don't try it on your own and always seek out someone who is experienced in the usage of plants and who know the right doses and measures to use.

Do the Siberian Shamans follow the same precautions as the Sami ?

i.e filter their agaric through a reindeer before consuming.


dav

I must admit Im not sure why the modern pagan that chuntters on about being of a shamanic or traditional witchcraft/hedgewitch path would be so against the use of entheogens, why choose such a path if you are not going to accept this part of the practice (i mean accept others in your traditional may use ethenogens to "ride the hedge" as it were. ).

Some people have said "I don't need substances to have these experiences".

I beg to differ, If you could open up your mind to see things that Shamans experience only thorugh the use of "mind enhancing entheogens" then we would all be living on a different planet

I've had my own experience of it as it is part of my path.

Thinair, I have a book called "Witchcraft Medicine: Healing Arts, Shamanic Practices, and Forbidden Plants"
A must for any witch or european shaman.
Ill give you the amazon link http://www.amazon.com/Witchcraft-Medicine-...n/dp/0892819715

It depends what experiences you want. I do trance work and I don't use entheogens and don't see them as necessary either. I know people who do use them and some who don't. It's a personal choice. In years gone by I have tried some of these things all I got was a blistering headache each time. I guess I must be allergic to some of them

True Wulfric, It depends what path you are on really does'nt it.

Some people get there through alcohol (thats were I get my blistering headaches from )I've seen many a pagan talking to God down the big white telephone:lol:

Now don't get me wrong the use of entheogens for is very few and far between its not nessesary to use all of the time ( please also know that the practice its not drug abuse).
Trance and meditation are also used but to me they are a different thing can't walk around the woods in trance for example, for me trance is more something that can be done inside my head (if you get what I mean) The use of entheogens helps me see the world from a different angle. maybe a dimention that I know is there but cannot see because my "human" mind has put up to many barriers ( ooh getting a bit deep there )

Mmmm, I had heard about the reindeer thing too - that reindeer pee filters out the poison and leaves the hallucinogenic properties intact. I definitely heard that fly algaric is poisonous fresh...

Alcohol is good for shifting states, so to speak. Unfortunately for me entheogens just don't seem to work. Oh well.

I use trance to walk the worlds, to meet the ancestors, etc. I don't meditate often. And trance tends to be in sitting in one place and not moving about for obvious reasons!

At the risk of getting deep, I do wonder if we can get past the social and mental barriers erected around our perceptions. Recently I've noticed that I seem to see the world differently - not all the time - and it's not something that's easy to describe. Perhaps by interacting with the wights, the gods, the otherworlds our perception filters change?

dunno if I should get into this one, we've done this before and I usually get told off but anyway, with care

these are a true part of traditional craft
but should only be tried in parts of the planet where it is legal, lol

and for most, they are essential for some purposes (some do not need them)
they can be dangerous because dosage control almost impossible but start small and see how you go
most wouldn't need a guide, but I usually suggest it because this is a public forum, but my truer feelings are if you need a guide for this sort of thing you really ought not be going far into magick as the states you will experience with or without it will often be akin to insanity

fly agaric is less hallucinogenic and more toxic IN MY BODY than psciloscybin, I can't suggest it;
dope, unless as oil or best skunk or chitral (try and get that today! good luck) is ok but the hallucinations can be distracting
i would no longer recommend acid
peyote is brilliant for this work, as is mescalin and pscilocybin but it really should be part of your path, not just an explore or a trip, the effects are still in me after four decades, transcendental experience is just that you see
yes, find your own is a true part of it, but make sure you can identify
TAKE CARE it is not a game or a trip and only real grown-ups should go to this part of craft work

Never used it, never had the oportunity to use it.

I would tho... under a couple of very strict circumstances, them being that I knew that I was trying it with somone who knew what they were doing, had prepared it before and soemone I felt I could trust and feel safe with.

I think its really important when using anything like this for the first time that you are with someone who knows what they are doing and can stop you from doing something stupid, just in case!

I do use grass tho. I mean I use it for recreation, but I also use it at times when Im meditating or working magick. Its in much lower doses granted, but I find it quite useful. The doors it opens can be opened without it and if I dont have any, it doesnt cause me any problems, but I do like the addtional aspect it can give. I have no problems with people working with "drugs".

I've not tried any hallucinogenic drugs, nor do I have or ever had the inclination to. Which is not to say that I never will, i'll wait until i'm a real adult first
I find that alcohol works fine for me.

Then there are those who don't need or use anything at all.

No-one needs to use anything.

Sometimes its just nice to experience something differently, and sometimes its nice to take short cuts and sometimes its just for the shits and giggles.

I have tried fly agaric, a long time ago and in very small doses, brewed as a tea. And felt a little drunk, nothing else. I have also tried magic mushrooms, it was a particular working at Samhain, again a very long time ago and very small dosage. and nothing happened. But I wouldn't do it now unless there was a very good reason. It's never really been a part of what I do, and I think that showed when I did experiment. There are other ways to journey. (tea & biscuits works just fine!)

... when we were at the hospital and the doctors eventually found out what he had taken they were obliged to contact the police. A very nice policeman came and asked us a lot of questions. As far as the police were concerned it was/is a halucinogenic substance and did/does constitute drug abuse.
But then taking drugs for shamanic purposes is of course not the same as taking them just for recreation.
I would be very interested, as my experience of agaric is limited to this unfortunate episode, to know what classification it comes under legally but really can't be arsed to find out.

Xalle - I couldn't agree with you less on the use of entheogens for 'short cuts'. That suggests you can achieve the same without them if you just work hard enough at it. It's a totally separate issue, and whereas dropping entheogens for giggles (are they still entheogens at that point?) is one thing, I think there's a lot more depth to it.

All of this 'I've heard...', 'I've heard...'. Erowid, it's what it's there for. Also a very good book: From Chocolate to Morphine.

The way I was taught to do it by regular takers was through oven drying. The harmful properties of agaric evaporate leaving it safe to consume. People go picking each year, it's especially prevalent around the Pendle and Yorkshire areas. If you don't prepare it properly, or if you mistake it for its cousin Pantherina, then yes, you stand damaging your liver. Same as eating red kidney beans or cassava without preparing it - you're going to get ill. First rule of any entheogen or new food-type: do your background research.

There are quite a few previously interesting threads on this forum regarding entheogens:-

The Opening Eye
Spirit or Broom Flying
Dreamflesh
Drugs and Paganism
Santa was a Shaman
Alcohol

(Woozle - which do you feel are acceptable to this forum, if any?)

It saddens me that people who are quite within their rights to choose not to take entheogens would seek to sensor those who do, but I didn't want this to turn into an argument over whether people should or shouldn't - that gets boring as it seems to happen to a lot of threads on the topic. There will always be a few t!ts who don't do their research or think it'll be a right laugh just to down something and see what happens - if they end up getting their stomach pumped, well it's a lesson in personal responsibility I'm afraid.

Actually, the reindeer part is debatable as to whether it was for safety - unlikely. It was more common for it to go my hierarchy - the head female shaman would consume the original mushroom then the urine would go down the rank of shamans who each had a lesser potency of experience. This is because it's not all that common enough for everyone to have an agaric to themselves and because of experience/rank. Similar to alcohol and the aboriginies where only the elders would reputedly consume it for ritual purposes.

Woozle, then you're not 'very interested' are you. Hate to see you apathetic

Left off the Peyote thread.

As you are entitled to do!

I quite agree that if being used fo the giggles then they arent being used as shamanic devices but it doesnt stop them from being entheogens.

Also, I disagree that some of the "achievements" cant be made without them depending on what you are doing and which drug you refer to. A state of altered conscious can be achieved without drugs.

For me.. I use grass (when the notion takes me) do do some of my workings.. usually the more complex ones because I find, that the grass helps me reach the "place" I want to be through meditation more quickly.

I am aware that you are talking about more complex and shamanic journies, but I wouldnt rule out the use for the more.. mundane (for want of a better word)

It's a Class A - however this depends on if it is "prepared" or not, there is no clear definition on "prepared" therefore is the arresting officer is arsey enough he/she could claim that if it's picked, it's prepared!

From someone who has been involved in Youth Work for nearly 20 years and sat through regular drugs training sessions the only thing I would say is that I wouldn't recommend it if you have any history of mental health problems and be VERY careful!!

Ive never used Fly Algaric, but purely because Ive yet to find one in a suitable condition to use!
I am well aware it is very poisionous and should not be used unless you know how to properly prepare it, which I wont go into here!
Needless to say Reindeer are not the most readily available filter, to most of us.
It was and is commonly used in Shamanic Cultures along with many other halucinagens.
Often they are used for people having difficulty reaching an altered consciousness, using other safer methods, so as a training aid.
I have limited experience of these things, as I wouldnt buy illegal powders etc, but I have picked and taken a large quantity (300) of magic mushrooms in the past, as smaller amounts did nothing! However on that occassion I over did it alot!
Half would have been enough, I had a terrible trip (I was also in the wrong emotional state, never do that!), I shared it with a Wiccan friend, and the intersting thing was we did share the same trip! But the experience scared the shit out of me!
Example at one point I was trying to get through a wall, the door was only 2 foot to my left, but it wasnt near enough for me!
On the upside I did have 3 months of pleasant flashbacks.
But after that I left my path for 3 years to refocus on grounding myself!
So I guess best advice is, if you want to do these things, then make sure they are fresh, make sure you know where they come from, do it with someone you trust and preferably is straight, know how to prepare them properly, dont do them if you are in an emotionally vunerable state.

That is a very important proviso that I alluded to already and should have emphasised more. But there is a problem within it already, a lot of magick workers already have 'mental health problems' caused in part by the quotidian ignorance of the altered states of a mind already psychic and untrained and by the stress of being forced to act sociably within the mundane world. What is called by some here shamanistic work, for the self at first and for other when connected, is a sound way of learning, harnessing and exploring the altered/different perceptions.

These substances can help with that. Having experienced people around is part of the ongoing assistance and connection to self and other that comes in a measured teaching environment for those whose craft bent is so shaped. Some will gain more from working alone, maybe thus risking more but that is balanced by the will and integrity they gather. Magick is never an acquired skill, it is an accepted submission.

These substances can open doors to ways and worlds of experience that enlighten. They are short cuts in that sense, a direct route to an adjacent vision let us say but perhaps also for many, keys that open what nothing else may. They are not necessarily short cuts in the implied sense of unearned gains. The risks mentioned above preclude that. And that, dear Athena, is why I mentioned grown-ups! The risks are real but as much from where you are going as how.

i have never found opiates or alcohol to offer the same positive potential. That may be my own metabolism. Hallucination yes, perception, no.

When it comes to 'recreational use', well .... not sure there is such a thing, even a light happiness from grass is an altered and often welcome state in this dark world!

No experiences to share, but I must confess it fascinates me. I'm quite curious about the use of ethnogens, but don't know if i'll ever experience them as I'd want somone experienced to guide me through it, don't feel up to expermenting on my own.

I've had some mental health issues, so I don't even use alcohol all that much as it pulls down some of my barriers and can reduce me to a wailing banshee.

Q

Great post Jape

One of the nice things about being almost 50 is that you can look back and reflect on all the things you have done. I have used a lot of acid in the past for spiritual reasons (yes really!!), in company with at least two guides in the group who didn't take anything. Each trip was guided for a specifc reason. Sources for the various acids were different, each brought his or her own including mescalin sometimes and so on. We often had a medic friend present. So it was as safe as we could make it.
But despite this most of us, 30 years on, have the same problems (but also the same awarenesses). For the last 20 years i have not taken anything. The occasional tug on a joint maybe but never once anything harder. I am still suffering the consequences of my joyfull youth now and will till my death.
I am not saying don't. It's your life after all. I think that you have to be aware of how emotionally balanced you are before embarking on something as variable as mushies. Acid is chemical and can be controlled mushies can't. You only need one bad trip to mess you up for a long time. Sure they can help you cross barriers. I learnt a lot, but now, if you asked me if i would do it again, the answer would be a definite no.
A thing i have learned is that showing off and fashion are the wrong reasons, but probably the most common, for taking drugs (particularly in and around universtity age). I feel as a pseudo-witch (i obviously can't be a real one) i have a deep responsibility for others by my actions and by my words. I don't know why because i spend half my time loathing others, but i believe very strongly that some things should not be publicised, they should be left to be sought by those that want to seek. And casually chatting about drugs, though intersting and oh so very cool, may entice someone unprepared and unqualified do to it, rather than them seeking to do it (if that makes sense) and i believe i, personally, have a duty if i can to prevent that person from approaching something they are not prepared for. For me the mystique of taking stuff has gone, i don't (and never have done) find it grown up. What you do with drugs is a personal thing. Do it sure, you may have a good time and learn lots as i did, but I think as witches or similar you should already have grown out of the 'tell me about your experience and i'll tell you mine' phase in relation to anything which may even remotely cause turmoil to another.
Sorry if i come across as an old grandaddy Woozle but maybe that's just how i am.

Come on now
Do you see us as children? Poor old you!

But woozle your telling us 'yours' and it's valid points your making and in any discussion someone thinking about engaging in any form of experimentation needs to hear both sides of the argument before making any decision.

I don't think anyone is advocating that it's cool or showing off, people are talking about the risks involved and how to manage some of those risks (and not experiementing is one of the ways you can manage risk).

I'd rather see the debate, with the pro's and con's then someone hearing ooh ethnogens they sound fun lets just go and forage for interesting things on the forest floor.

Q

Ha ha, Poor old me!!! I'm having a great time.
I think you have missed the point somewhere.

Tas breaks out the Lego...

Yep, you're probably right. Take mine as a con.
I just hope that some of the underage readers of this forum, after maybe seeing an episode of 'witches' (a TV prog over here), don't go 'oooh ethnogens they sound fun lets just go and forage for some on the forest floor' because they read it here.
But i'm ok with it. I beginning not to care about this type of topic anymore. It's a losing battle from where i'm standing.

I have read this thread with interest. My perspective is on the conservative side. I don't understand why it's ever necessary to risk your mental and general health by taking these sort of substances. But then as anyone who has read my dazed and confused posts in the past will know, I have never really settled into a serious spiritual path. I don't understand why people get blind drunk either, or smoke so much that they ruin their lungs, but obviously there are real reasons for it.

I don't see why people sharing their experiences on this forum will encourage anyone to make rash experiments. Sharing experiences can only be good. I appreciate Woozle's experience with his mate, as much as I appreciate those of any who care to share their spiritual gains. So far I've read nothing about spiritual gains that persuades me it's worth the risks Woozle describes.

Ok Julai, I will try!

I see some of the posts above do mention path-walking, altered perception and understanding. These are gains if that is your chosen road and some come about because of the substance and the subjective experience of altered brain chemistry.

There is also the simpler attainment of states of relaxation, happiness and for me, sometimes peace in the exploration and experience.

There is possible, aided by guidance for some, an awareness of space and time that is different to the normal flow of perception. This can be very instructive.

There is possible, an overlap with what are described as 'other realms' of a differing spiritual content. Deity, faery, spirits are concepts most would understand. The world of the unconscious, the subconscious and the imagination can be explored with will and control. This has two obvious (to me) spiritual benefits; one, the possible understanding and resolution of subconscious patterns and behaviours, two, the personal understanding of a consistent magickal theme, other realms of being.

The synthesis and integration of these, 'above and below, lol' leads to at least the consolidation of a personal belief system, maturity of will and purpose, experience that can be illuminating and insightful when working with others if you so choose. Of course, the traditional path of shaman is a s intercessor and mediator in the metaphysical path of the tribe or community.

There are also psychic states of telepathy, empathy, mediumistic awareness that may be present in an individual naturally. these substances may be used to enter these states by will and alone or guided, one can explore and learn to control the ability and its manifestation in ones life. That can in itself be a healing method, not without risk, that enables the participant to find balance and understanding beyond the intellectual.

For some, these psychic states are reached only by ingesting such substances and perhaps for them taking part in rites and methods that lead to for example telepathic shared consciousness, empathic shared feeling, even epiphany, allows them to explore communion, to break down barriers and truly achieve union. It is not false because it is aided.

Thus it may be a personal journey or a communion. It may be a vision quest or a shamanic intercession. It may be the considered analysis of symbolic states of being within. It may just be fun - an often ignored or underestimated spiritual state.

There is no difference between so called chemicals such as LSD and natural bio-active substances except in possible dosage control, and that is subjective and personal and certainly not something you can be sure of with street manufactured drugs. There is a very definite perceptual difference between the states offered by different substances.

In terms of magick, this is the earth element fully obtainable and enhanced. It may be used as a gateway to earth exalted and with understanding and experience may become a key to the achievement of the body of light, through Ishtar's seven jewels if you like that stuff. Just thought I would add that, this is a magickal and pagan path forum in part, not just a social debating society after all?

Woozle, the forum is over 16's and to be honest if they were going to do it they'd do it anyway!

Julai, people take drugs/smoke etc because plain and simply, they like it! For the most part I don't smoke, really the only time you'll see me with a cig in hand is if I'm drinking, but when I do I really enjoy it!!

My drug is grub, which is unfortunate as it's the only bad habit that really shows on the outside!!

There shouldn't be any underage readers here, as were all over 18 as per site policy!

But, I for one have really appreicated your input, and I don't think you should see this thread as a battle, and I certainly don't see a winning/losing camp. I just see adults having a debate!

Q

You see this is precisely my problem. People forget that this is an open site. How many teenageers do you know, who when they see an 18 limit, actually respect it? I know i never did and we had real rules when i was a kid.
I know two who regularly read on here. 13 and 17 and they're reading in a foreign language. Think how many english speakers there could be.
For me, this type of thing is a battle - a battle for common sense.
My tone here is friendly Queenie. I like your posts.

xx

Hi Xalle,

[quote]I quite agree that if being used fo the giggles then they arent being used as shamanic devices but it doesnt stop them from being entheogens.[/quote]

I was about to argue 'yes it does' for the sheer definition:

"‘Entheogen’ is derived from Greek (ἔνθεος (entheos) and γενέσθαι (genesthai)) one translation of which is: ‘God Within’ (Nichols, 2004). It is an expression used to describe hallucinogens used in a ritual or spiritual context. Other translations are given as: ‘that which engenders god within’ (Psychedelicist, 1993) and ‘becoming divine within' (Erowid 2006)."

(Excuse reference blurb, was used in one of my MA papers They didn't like it much but I was bored of the usual and fancied a break).

The general census tends to say that if it's not being used in a spiritual context then it is just 'a drug'. However, in the same breath you could parody that actually, the entheogen is an entheogen regardless - thus all drugs are entheogens - and thus all experiences valid in a spiritual context. Which, thinking about it, is right. So you're right lol

[quote]A state of altered conscious can be achieved without drugs.[/url]

Yes, of course it can. But not the same states as the spirit of each entheogen will take you. You won't end up in Harner's Jivaro world of shadow dragons drinking fanta and you'll never fly the demons of flying ointments humming Ommm for twelve hours. entheogens are keys to worlds of reality. Meditation is a key - a whole bunch of keys. Dance trance is a key. But none of them take you to the same place. Each spirit invites you into its home. People may view the home from different angles, in different levels of light at different times, but the theme is a shamanic constant, everyone who's been there can relate to anyone else who has been there.

[quote]For me.. I use grass (when the notion takes me) do do some of my workings.. [/quote]

Aaaaaah, I've got to talk about this! lol Never in my life has grass done much for me. There are certain entheogens that don't ever seem to hit the spot and some (including chemically manufactures that you'd expect to be constant) that are temperamental. It's always about mood and setting. Anyway, the other night I had a session with a friend and I have never in my life experienced the full-on effects of it as I did then. We were both in the same headspace and it was really, really amazing. I suddenly 'got' it - the spirit of that plant. It had never taken me in before. Now that I've known it, I've been able to find it again - we've greeted each other. It was a phenomenal experience for me. I have had sessions before, even with the same guy, but nadda. That night the spirit came rushing through us both and took us off to play. I heard both whispers of alcohol and mushrooms in it, which surprised me. There was a little familiarity about part of it that I wasn't expecting. Really interesting.

Live 'n' learn eh

x

The mods are usually pretty hot at spotting underage posters (if they post and aren't reading off an adults account).

Personally, on that front (and as the mother of a 14 year old). I monitor my child's internet, access the only PC that has internet access is the one in our bedroom.

So I think parents have a duty to 'police' where there kids are going online, rather than the site policing was is said.

But this has all rather gone off on a tangent!

Q

Yep, it can be an excellent drug. I love the way it enables me to really reach outside myself.

I'll be honest, Im a real novice when it comes to drugs. There are lots of things I would like to try, experiences I would like to at least be able to say... "yup, gave that a go!" before I shuffle off this Mortal Coil as they say.

I think too... and I suppose this is the whole OTHER argument about drugs that people ignore... drugs have been used in spirituality for so many ages. I mean sure... there's abuse, but thats because it got away from those who used it right into the hands of the uneducated masses and bang, you got a world wide drug problem (took a little longer than that lol but you get the idea ) Doesnt change the fact that there is a reason that drugs have been used in magical practices since time began. I'm open to that!

Mm, thanks Jape for your astonishing catalogue of benefits. It makes me wish I was a bit more involved in all this so I could have these experiences, but I really don't think it's my way, I'm not dedicated enough. Or possibly I'm too lazy to want to upset the nice comfortable equilibrium of my life as it is. We can't all be shamans, can we?

Ill try and list a few benefits too!
1) It resulted in me grounding myself. Prior to this I was floating about off the ground!
2) It made me look hard at my acheivements and what I wanted to acheive.
3) As a result of 2) I trained in Conservation and have done my bit to help the planet as a result!
4) As a result of training in Conservation, I learnt to identify a lot better with Trees, as a result of that and other practical Conservation skills, my Magical Tool Making skills improved 3 fold.
5) I qualifed in various Healing Fields.
6) I wrote a book, which will be published soon!
7) I got a proper job and bought a flat!

All of these things could be attributed to the bad trip, If I hadnt had it, Id probably still be floating around acheiving little of consequence!

I must add some bad points now!
1) I could have been classed as insane for at least a couple of months!
2) I was a total wreck for about a year!
3) I did a lot of dead end stuff, that was pretty pointless and lost my Spiritual Centre, my point of balance.
4) I lost several lovers!
5) I lost myself!
6) I had to leave Cornwall!
7) It took a lot of effort to sort myself out and that hurt like hell on all levels!

I've never tried it on my own, which is something that would be interesting. The spirit of entheogens often seems to change between social and isolated experiences. I tried Khat not long ago, which is a very social drug in Uganda, they sell it in paper cones on the street for around 15p (and 30p for the bubblegum). A very mild stimulant apparently but I think my curiosity overwhelmed any effects



*nodding* I have to say, curiosity was always a big part of it for me and the further I went, the grater the curiosity became. You know as a kid when you see an adult getting drunk and you play mimic it, wobbling about and falling over. Then you actually get drunk - nicely drunk - and you realise it's a totally different experience to what you were told not to do in school Same with smoking I guess.

I was very lucky in the sense that I had someone who taught me an awful lot about the use of entheogens, especially mushrooms and MDMA. Taught me to pick, to take, and beyond everything else, to interpret - to be psychologically healthy. He also taught me a lot about the way entheogens work and potentially, what they can do to you (both very good and very bad). And of course, to do your f*ing research lol Things you should do, things you shouldn’t do - and the sacredness of all such things as they interact with the core of you.

I was fascinated by that. I read a lot, I watched a lot. One of my earliest memories of this stuff was watching someone on PCs at a stone site, interacting with the spirit of one of the stones. There was a lot of howling and funny noises involved, then he ran off into the night and we didn't see him again 'til the next morning. I just thought 'wow, I have to try this'. Before that it was like playing at being drunk, I imagined what it would be like from what I'd heard and seen, I couldn't help thinking that the reactions looked so over-played that to some extent people must be over-acting what was happening. Then I tried it for myself and I realised what power it had - that the whole universe was communicating all of the time.

The fundamental thing that my mentor-of-sorts taught me, was how to deal with bum trips. Not how to stop them, but how to interpret them, how to ingest them and how to accept them within my worldview. I needed that because my psyche is one a little prone to dark places and I've had my share of difficult trips. But because I knew this person, because he'd invested time telling me about it and talking me through things, and because he knew me so very well, I came out of these darks with an overwhelming sense of privilege. I had really understood something about myself. I had really 'been there' and met things that my daily barriers and perceptions kept at bay. I felt a little healed each time and although the moment when you think you know yourself is the moment when the spirit will pull the rug from under you again, I honestly partly credit entheogens with my current, stable, frame of mind. I could have been a very different person.

To reiterate the personal responsibility theme again though, the worst trip I ever had I honestly thought I was going to die. I was a self-professed prat about it and took something (Hawaiian Baby Woodrose - LSA) without doing my research properly beforehand. I basically didn't prepare it and ended up poisoning myself. I have never been so ill in my life - I wanted to die part-way through just to make it stop. But was certainly another lesson learned about respect lol



And for the treatment of schizophrenia and abuse: Groff.

I'm not sure they were used for, I think they were the beginnings of. All else followd.



And also, the spirit of these things will show you what you are and what it is. There's no room for pretence and sociological ideals. The drug itself can educate - the 'teacher plants' - but only if the student is willing to listen. And we have this very self-centric approach to learning - we go into things already half knowing what we're going to come out with, we've got the preconception to hand. Especially on a lad who hates authority, skives off school, likes getting drunk with his mates, shags the nameless meat and pisses away his life up against a wall. He knows everything already, what's he got to learn. Sometimes these drugs can really make a difference, but the majority it hurts their heads and bruises their egos - 'won't do that sh!t again, f*cking evil stuff that'. It's all about what something did to them, not what it taught them or showed them - because often it wasn't good. Drugs are great up until you have a down, then they're regarded rather like a butterfly that just stung you. For young lads who give and get crap in all directions, one more thing - especially an escape route - that kicks them in the shins is just one more pile of crap to disregard. Carries right on over into adulthood. For people with a destructive streak who like being kicked, hello long-term psychological damage. Entheogens won't lift you out of anything, they'll push you into it.

Sorry, waffling

CS - wonderful posts

Personally Woozle I think it works both ways. NOT talking about experiences leaves people to learn from others in a far less open way. Only hearing from friends who "use" is not a way to make an informed opinion.

I also think you are misunderstanding what people are discussing here. This is not a "heeey maaan lets like, share our experiences and see if we can out do each other on our trips"

This is SUPPOSED to be a serious discussion about the use of drugs within spirituality.

I also agree as a witch I have a responsibility, but I also have a desire to learn, and I cant do that with my head in the sand.

Thinair mentioned this thread may be of interest on my brief return so here's my ten denk ;-)


there's been lots of talk of whether this thread (and its topic) are 'responsible'.. a suitable subject for an open forum. Whilst i see where ppl's concern lies it my belief that NOT talking about the use of 'entheogens' in our practices actually leads to more potential dangers..


a few points ..in no particular order:) just my opinions/ideas

'Drugs'... to discuss the matter fully it would be helpful to drop this term altogether. It's silly to lump together substances which have WIDELY different effects.
this thread is specifically about Fly Agaric.. the alkaloids it contains are NOT restricted under the misuse of drugs act, so legality/illegality is a moot point.
'Drugs', in the general sense, cause addiction. the active compounds in many 'hallucinogenic' species have a tolerence effect, so u simply cannot become addicted as u cannot use them day after day. 'drugs' in the sense of 'hey lets paaaarty' dont really apply here either, im pretty sure no-one uses fly agaric 'recreationally' (least i hope so!!).

The Fly Agaric contains several active compounds.. which CAN induce a 'visionary state'.
HOWEVER... the alkaloid content can vary according to SEVERAL factors.. age of the 'fruiting body', soil conditions, genetic factors, plant to plant, even year to year etc.. in other words -u find several fly agaric in a wood.. fruit A could contain upto 5x the amount of active compounds as fruit B ..which grows 10 feet away!! so its a kind of 'entheogenic russian roulette'... UNLESS u visit the SAME plant.. year after year and build a relationship to THAT plant (and its level of active compunds).
( this is also the reason im horrified when i see it on sale in 'head shops' after the short sighted psilocybin mushroom ban.. its simply FAR more dangerous)

there has been talk of LSD and psilocybin as well in this thread. these substances are well known for the 'visionary' properties, but they are radically different from fly agaric chemically speaking.(so different in fact that they are illegal to possess under current UK law).

ive tried fly agaric all of twice. each time was very uncomfortable... and u were so busy monitoring yr body's signs (breathing/heart rate etc) that any gnosis that is there was easily missed. (makes me think of 'ordeal poisons'! ;-)

Fly agaric can be classed as a 'delirient' more than a (purely) 'visionary' substance IMO, the same could be said of deadly nightshade/belladonna. both have a history of use within 'Witchcraft' (especially of the more traditional kind) but for me the states produced are too fraught with danger (mental and physical).

in short-- id simply advise against the use of fly agaric..full stop.

id also advise against 'recreational' use of such substances.. in principal. but the last thing u want if u work with these substances is any subconscious xtian guilt over yr 'hedonism' ;-)

SO if u intend to seriuosly try these things.. do so with CLEAR intent and step LIGHTLY (in spirit and dosage). there was mention of 'over doing' entheogens earlier in this thread.. the classic,, 20 didnt do enough ..so i took 300 and regretted it i can only echo this warning
With other 'spiritual disciplines' the emphasis is on dedication/repetition- the more u put in the more u get out, IMO entheogens are the opposite. if you approach with the notion of 'throwing yrself into it' you'll do more harm than good. yr foot should be firmly on the break, with an attitude of OPEN exploration. leave yr 'high n mighty' magick robes at the door,drop any notions of 'control'.. be receptive and honest.
large groups are to be avoided, a 'straight' (non-participant) TRUSTED friend is useful but try n throw away any ideas of a 'Guide' ala Leary in the sixties. Terence McKenna's idea of a 'Sitter' is more useful- a trusted non-participant u can 'summon' with a call from the next room etc, who;ll stick their head round the door or chat if needs be.
working with entheogens OUTSIDE can be VERY rewarding, but disorientating. indoor use first would be far better. IF outside, pick yr spot carefully.. u dont want random ramblers interupting you;-) (and dont go to local sacred sites and then wonder why yr suddenly a bit 'freaked out'!)

of course u should also research thoroughly before setting out..

Erowid.. is THE essential online guide to effects/dosage/experiences.
Shroom- by andy letchford (review on this site somewhere) is a SOLID piece of research into both fly agaric and psilocybin mushrooms.(not very 'practical' though)
Timothy Leary.. GASP! although discredited in many circles his work on SET and SETTING is still invaluable IMO.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_and_setting


i could recommend more but ill close with..
just lie down/sit still.. keep your eyes closed;-)


Lumi

I agree. Just not sure that this is the right place. I would much rather read about it from some authoratitive source that from a discussion with people who may only have used it once or twice and even then most probably for the wrong reasons and whose degree of loopiness i cannot be sure of.
And anyway I'm not sure though that it is appropriate in today's society. With all the safer substances with metered dosages available, just using stuff because the shamans supposedly used it in order to be "authentic" seems a bit infantile. The shamans did not have our awareness. They were living in diffent times. Synethesia to them was probably a message from the gods and whole belief systems probably grew up out of this one phenomenon. We know it is just an effect of the drug. No mater how hard you want to believe it, we are no longer our ancestors, we cannot reconstruct 'them' in us.
I don't believe that, if you are talking about halucinogens that there is much difference between substances, just the safety factor. They all push the same button.
But hey, everyone's free to discuss and use to his heart's content, i've lost too many friends both mentally and physically to the use of various 'natural' susbstances to really worry. Perhaps we could talk about mescalin next
Just as a foot note. I have had experiences which have been just as informative using weed and a bodhran as those with other stuff and with that, i'll leave you to it.

What exactly is an authoritive source? Someone from government? I mean sure, that'll give you the facts and figures, but lets be honest, its not authoritive, its opinioned. These are the same people who cant decide if canabis is a class B or class C drug. These are the people who IGNORE what their scientists are saying!



So a drug right? An illegal drug... and thats ok because.... Whats the difference? Its one you are comfortable with? Its a bit hypocritical that.

The difference between LSD, LSA, Psilocybin, DMT/ayahuasca is vast. What they do chemically is different, what they o spiritually is different, the way they teach is different, the way they speak is different.

Lumi - welcome back if you're back. *wave* if you're just passing through x

Outdoors. My experiences have always been far more interesting outdoors. If I start indoors, I often find myself wandering out. I did once wander around woodland where I came across a couple of people. Veeery interesting and strange. Animals know too - dogs. Fascinating stuff. My friend’s daughter has a very interesting run-in with a horse.

One of the first accounts I ever read, long before trying, was - well, I used to run this website called Raining Gaia's Tears, yeeeaaars ago. I must have been about 13/15. This guy was talking about his German Shepherd. He'd had her since a pup and after taking her to the vet, discovered she had cancer. She would have to be put down. On the last evening before taking her in, the guy took a good dose of mushrooms, washed it down with a beer and went walking out on Ilkly moor (b’ah t’at) with his dog. He described the trip he took into the ancestral pack of her breed - the communication he shared with her. I was in tears by the end and it was the most wonderful advocate for the spirit world. I remember the dog was called Witch Queen in Latin (Velrox Hex or something?). I must have read that a good 13 years ago but I still remember it.

Regarding sitters - always an interesting one. Should be someone who's been there before with a very grounded head on their shoulders. I know I sometimes swing wildly between wanting to be near people and on my own. Others always want to be on their own. I find people who are not in my headspace a bit disturbing really - be they sober or in another place with some other spirit. The most profound and wonderful experiences have certainly 100% been on my own and outdoors. If I find myself wanting to be near people I then find I get a bit funny when I think about being on my own and it can introduce an element of paranoia which I haven't quite worked through.

I always find it particularly interesting when you start a trip off where you finished the last one, like a reoccurring dream. I went through a phase where I got stuck in a down and each time I took off again, I'd feel this slow, melting weight of inertia come over me again and my body, face and mind would start melting into the earth. I had to work my way through it. It manifests itself in wake-time as that horrible feeling you get when you don't want to write an essay

The first PC trip I ever took began with the tingly sweats and numb nose and I suddenly couldn't move. I was in Hebden Bridge at the time, there was an impromptu Ostara festival going on on this green half-way up the valley. The terrace houses were all open and you could walk in and make a cuppa or go to the loo. Wonderful place. We were sitting around this camp fire with fire dancing and a make-shift maze. People playing instruments and everything getting passed around in a circle.

There I was, not moving, and suddenly the bricks in the houses all individualised, I could have counted every one of them, and the clouds became individual water crystals and then I got stuck staring into space and this huge iron mask came out of the sky - female with two fangs, one longer than the other and glowing red-hot eyes and it just stared at me impassively and I stared back, unable to move. After a few moments it disappeared again and the trip began. But I had this knowledge that if I ever took a really, really bad down, that's where I'd go. She'd be there. Some primeval goddess, the incarnation of the Caillech, ready to rip me apart.

Thankfully I've never been there. Had downs but never her type.

The one book that influenced and inspired me more than anything?

Be Here Now, Dr. Richard Alpert/Baba Ram Das. I read that when I was about 15 - found it in my mum's partner’s old boxes. I loved it with a passion at that persuasive age. And, although I'm about to spoil the ending, the thing that got me most was when he finally found the great swami guru in the desert, and he downed that vial of LSD...and he just got a headache.

That, to me, was all that could have happened. I loved that. I wanted to be the swami, not Ram Das lol I wanted that ultimate mental assention.