The issue of ‘white’ magic and people who call themselves ‘white witches’ seems to be quite contentious and some people appear rather hostile to this concept . Why?

One criticism I have read a few times is that ‘magic has no colour’, however the way I think of it is white magic refers to magic performed with ‘good’* intentions or drawn from a benevolent source and black magic would refers to magic performed with bad/evil* intentions or drawn from malevolent sources. These definitions have nothing to do with magic possessing a colour in a literal sense but rather use the words ‘white’ and ‘black’ to mean ‘good’ and ‘evil’.


*I’m leaving the issue of what is meant by the words ‘good’ and ‘evil’ alone for now (could possibly be a topic of discussion for a separate thread).

All I will say is that whenever I hear of someone who claims to be a "White Witch" it sets of a massive internal cringe factor that is indiscribable to communicate properly.
I know a few witches in the South West and although many perform Shamanic healing and do loads of Magick to help others they would be horrified to be called "White Witches".
Witchcraft cannot be simplified into such childish notions.

An understanding of the forces makes the whole concept ridiculous.

A good weaver cares not one bit for colour classifications.

What next? Dulux magical colour cards that standardise the colour of said working.

People are happy enough to call themselves white witches. I won't argue, it's good enough for me. If people percieve things that way, then for them, it exists. It makes me laugh when people say there's no such thing is white witches, because I know a few people that call themselves this.

Makes me laugh

I dont think the terms 'White or Black Magic' are the issue here, you are correct in that White Magic refers to Magic done for Positive reasons, whereas Black Magic is performed for Negative Reasons.
I dont think colour is even the issue, as I think Im right in saying technically 'Black and White' are not colours, but rather refer to Light presence.
As you say the concept of Good and Evil is a Pandoras Box, which I sure has already been discussed at length and no doubt will be again!
I suspect most Pagans / Heathens, etc would see the Magic that is used as a Neutral Energy, like Electricity, it can be used to power Medical Equipment to save lives or it can be used to power an Electric Chair to take life.
The Electricity hasnt changed its Morality, only its use has changed.
The issue is more with White Witches, which drums up images of the 'Fluffy' brigade, who often are associated more with New Age 'Love & Light' Ideals than Pagan / Heathen ones, they certainly are with me anyway!
In Pagan / Heathen terms I think Magik (in any of its spellings!), is considered a Natural Energy, rising from Nature, which has no concepts of Good and Evil, Right and Wrong, etc, it just is. Nature is Neutral in its Energies, an example of this would be the cute 'ittle pudy cat', playing with its ball of wool, or curled up on a lap purring, or ripping a little bird or bunny rabbit apart, again its only playing, unless its a Wild Cat and need it for food.
I strongly suspect most Witches, from whatever Tradition, would generally describe themselves as a 'Witch', with no colour references, unless a TV Camera is being aimed at them during an Interview, when they may say 'White Witch', purely so non Pagans / Heathens, dont consider them as Evil or Satanists, etc, as this could potentially cause them problems in the Mundane / Normal World.

Yeah, I think that's where the term came from, as alot of peopple still have many negative connotations assoicated with the term 'witch'.

Admitedly most the people who call themselves white witches do fall under the fluffy bunny slippers and crystal ball brigade's banner, but does that make their world view any less valid? There does seem to be a massive backlash against the whole new-age movement, some of it justified, some of it not, but hey, thats just the way of the world I guess.

[quote=SpiralShaman,Jun 2 2008, 12:09 AM]
Yeah, I think that's where the term came from, as alot of people still have many negative connotations assoicated with the term 'witch'.

Admitedly most the people who call themselves white witches do fall under the fluffy bunny slippers and crystal ball brigade's banner, but does that make their world view any less valid?


They can call themselves what they like I suppose, its just one of those things that can set yer bullshit alarm banging loudly.
I have always said " You can call me what you like but don't call me early in the morning"!

I agree with FCM. I don't know about britain but in italy they talk about black mass and black magic. I would imagine that the term white magic was simply used to distinguish other types of intent from this.
Sometimes people can get quite upset about this whole colour thing and i have always found this cricticising of terms used a bit odd. Surely terms arise in an attempt to describe things, so people know where they are coming from. 'Pagan' is a term like 'white witch' and 'fluffy'. How can you use some and get annoyed by the others? Perhaps pagans in general are not as tolerant as i though.

I don't think magic is either white nor black, good nor evil. It's all down to the practioner's intent. One "good" thing may be seen as "evil" by one person and visa versa.

Personally, I think that White Magic and Black Magic were more created as an expanation to non-Pagan's rather than anything else.

Because people are not always as logical or rational as we would like (and that includes you and me). We all have things we are intolerant about - some of them are understandable and some of them just bizarre.

I remember a having a conversation with someone and she said that the only thing she couldn't tolerate was intolerance and thought that people who were intolerant were lacking something. I did point out that because she was intolerant against intolerance then that meant she was also intolerant and thus the very thing she despised. She left at that point.

Just call yourself what you want!!
As has been said before, people percieve things in different ways and colour may be important to some or insignificant to others. The same goes for your magick.

Not to them, no. To others, yes. It's all down to perceptions of reality. However, having spoken to several of what some would call "fluffy" I've often been struck that their view is a little naïve perhaps. I also wonder if it could be a little unbalanced - in that the "dark" side is just as necessary as the "light" side (to use inaccurate labels).

Magic and the use of supernatural forces is about balance. You cannot have the light without the shadow. This is my main objection to Christianity (and many other Pagans' obection). It attempts to be all light and all good and consequently draws in darkness and evil in ways Christians themselves feel to be unimaginable. To me and many others, this darkness and evil is an unavoidable consequence of the attempt to be "all good".

Similarly, a witch or pagan that professes to be a "White Witch" is either lying, or setting up a situation where a lot of bad stuff is going to happen.

Or both.

Indeed, I would not assign them any colour, rather, if there are any two general categories magic falls into, it would be either "domestic" or "otherworldly". Too often the premise of "doing good", has that vain-glorious habit of achieving quite the opposite. Sod's Law.

I agree with the posters who say - magic is a natural force and thus of no morality / colour and the comments about the 'white' epitaph being used both by fluffies and by those who are trying to show the mundane world that we are not evil devil worshipping etc etc. Both uses do hold a kind of validity - after all that is thier world view and sound for them...

From a personal PoV I am suspicious of those who feel the need to explain thier 'flavour' of magic in the rarther simplistic terms of colour.
As even the best intentioned magic can have unforseen and decididly 'grey' tones....

For example healing is normally termed white by such people - but what if the person you heal has been or goes on to be a rapeist? At that point to heal was it good or bad or just a mix of grey?
The answer of cause is that it is all a mix - in exactly the same way as any mundane healer has to get to grips with treating everyone and any one who enters thier surgery.

There is no such thing as BLACK or WHITE - the closest any mortal can get is whiteish...

BE bright, be bold
Fillionous

*nods* found that myself.



Completely agree with this.

[COLOR=red] On reflection, I think I'm a red witch![/COLOR=red] [COLOR=blue]And make that blue on tuesdays...[/COLOR=blue]

Anyway, the black white thing in the UK comes from the times when reconstructed wicca (eg Gardner, Crowleigh etc) were putting their ideas together in the context of a UK society where ppl were still going to Church a lot. A lot of ppl were very nervous about the devil and satanism, and needed a way to justify to themselves taking a wiccan path, so the white witch idea was born, because they were a little bit afraid of other ppple's reactions and also some pple were frightened of exploring the occult because of the Church's line on this.

Remember in the 60s and 70s, the occult and dabbling in it were seen as very dangerous (Hollywood good reflection of attitudes at the time) whereas in the 90s, New Ageism started to make it commercially viable and therefore a lot more socially acceptable, together with of course, the growing UK apathy towards the church.

In Italy, of course, the Church is a lot stronger, so the good v evil ideas hold a lot more sway. The Pope and his scary cardinals have found it very useful to have an enemy as it grabs a lot more seats so they spend a lot of time and money on declaring the actual existence of the devil and the occult and rushing around "saving" witches and the damned. They have declared that dabbling and white witchery are just the pathway drug to rocky road and ruin, so in European Catholic countries, these terms are part of cultural norms that mean that WE ARE ALL EVIL. Or at least damned.

I think you may be taking the colour thing a bit too literally.



I suspect that not all white witches are Pagan/Heathens. Some may see themselves as Christian and practice Christianised magic i.e. invoking the name of God, Jesus, angles or using bible verses in incantations or for divination etc. much as the cunning men did in the past. Whereas practitioners of ‘Pagan witchcraft’ see magic as coming from nature and being neutral ’Christian witches’ would see the magic they use as coming from God (who is perceived by then as being intrinsically good) thus the magic is good and called white; so as only magic that comes from Good is good then magic that comes from anywhere else, whether that be Satan, demons, Nature, other gods/goddesses etc., must be evil and thus is called ’black’.

Therefore in Christian-witchcraft ‘black magic’ and ‘white magic’ would exist as separate opposing forces that would possess innate moral qualities, the magic itself is either good or evil. Because the magic itself would possess and innate moral quality the intentions of the Christian-witch become meaningless; if a witch invokes God in a spell to kill babies (generally considered a bad act) such a spell would be inherently good (because God is good) and the witch would performing a good act (because it is in the name of God and God is good), this would be called white magic, whereas if a witch was to invoke Satan in a spell to heal the sick and dying (generally considered a good act) such a spell would be inherently evil (because Satan is evil) and the witch would performing an evil act (because it is in the name of Satan and Satan is evil), this would be called black magic.



Then the problem is not so much the terms ‘white magic’ and ‘white witch’ being used but rather the character of the individual using the terms?




This would depend upon the moral beliefs of the witch, it could be argued that the act of healing itself is good and separate from the past and future actions of the rapist. Perhaps another example of white magic going a bit grey would be that a witch casts a spell to get a patient a heart for a transplant without which the patient will die. This spell then causes a close family member of the patient to die and leave their heart to the patient (both the patient and family member are the same age, sex, and have the same occupation).

Well, just to set the record straight, I fall into the distinctly grubby category.

Most Heathens would not classify themselves as witches at all, actually.

Dunno what most pagans would classify themselves as.

However, I do happen to be a Heathen witch.



I work with gods when performing magic. IME this is true of all Heathens, but not of all pagans (as many pagans are atheists, but I have not come across a Heathen atheist)

Heathens do not generally view magic as coming from 'nature' as we do not view 'nature' as an entity. However, we may view magic as natural.

Magic may be neutral but the intent of the magic is not. The problem lies in intent and time lapse. By that I mean that one may work magic and the effects, over time, may be one thing in a short time frame and entirely other in a longer time frame.

I don't go along with the Christian thing of what gods one works with as a simple indictment of what colour the magic might be, Again, IME, the number of Christian witches is very much a minority - I could count the number I've encountered on one hand, so don't feel one should make rules by their apprehensions.

As others have said, I view the whole white/black issue as one of PR i.e. that the person who makes a point of labelling themself as 'white' is fighting against a perceived bad press. Personally, I don't give a damn. One uses magic to achieve results. You may as well talk of 'white knives' and 'black knives' in the context of either culinary equipment or knives put into people to harm them.

Christian Witchcraft! Bit of a dichotomy!

Ceremonial MagicK maybe, but witchcraft?

Does that make the High Priest of the Coven his Eminance the Pope?

Now now PK - PC and all that! You NAUGHTY boy - you KNOW we don't tolerate that sort of inflammatory remark in here! Tsk tsk.

So we should ignore them because they are a minority? Which if that is the case then all Pagans are evil worshippers of Satan, this is the view held by many Christians and as Christians vastly outnumber Pagans it should be up to them to make the rules.

Also many Christians would say that your gods do not exist or they are demons sent by Satan to lead you astray from the one true God.



I would not say that Christianity is incompatible with witchcraft. Yes in the past when the word witch referred to someone who practiced malevolent magic and swore allegiance to the devil but now the meaning of the word witch has changed or at least taken on more meanings.

If I remember rightly throughout history many popes have been accused of witchcraft, mostly by protestants I think.

Are you speaking of all heathens, or just the UK?

I personally don't care much what 'colour' someones magic is. I know 'white' witches and sometimes I envy them their naivity.

The only reason to call yourself a 'white' witch is to disassociate yourself from the thousands of years of prejudice that is attached to the word witch. It just reassures the unknowing that you aren't going to start sacrificing animals or eyeing up their first born for that all important soul-selling ritual.

If someone doesn't feel comfortable in dealing with the darker aspect of the Craft, then that is up to them, I would rather that they stay 'fluffy' and feel in control then start messing with things that they neither know nor understand.

The whole point of paganism is that it allows people to be and worship whatever they wish, if it's right for you, then it's right....end of story. Although I acknowledge the darker side of this world, I have no desire to dabble in it myself....does that make me 'fluffy' and 'white'....could be, do I care what other people really think of my choice of path...nope, not at all. My choice is not anyone else's, just like their choice is not mine. I may roll my eyes at some of the things that I hear and see, but never would I tell people that it was invalid, just because it's not 'dark' enough. I'm betting that not one of you/us started our walk in our chosen faiths at the point we are currently at, it would have been starting small and gradually getting to here.

There is enough darkness and intolerance in this world, so I am not going to add to that. If someone wants to call themselves a 'white witch' just leave them alone, they are hurting no-one, are they, and if you are a 'white witch' good on you, and long may you stay that way


Minty. xx

It's the voices they made me do it

There is some nonsense written in some of the posts above that it isn't worth the bother of argument, just statement, however arrogant it seems.
No witch works with gods or goddesses of any kind as part of the craft, but they can as part of the magick. If you do not understand that difference, you are NOT witch.
Christian witches did/do exist, if you understand what I just said, you would see how.
A witch can be anything, including magick worker or deity worshipper, but none of those assume 'witch'.
However modern interpretations of witch include any bugger who can lift a wand or wear a pentangle (only part of the journey) so why not allow white witches too? In fuckin' and fightin', all is fair. But face to face and sometimes farther, we recognise another.

Jape = don't I know you from somewhere?

PK = trust the voices mate!


Minty = "If someone doesn't feel comfortable in dealing with the darker aspect of the Craft, then that is up to them, I would rather that they stay 'fluffy' and feel in control then start messing with things that they neither know nor understand."

Weel said.

Lol, depends what bit of you you recognise in me Tas! Lets hope its a good bit.
Was that you on the motorbike in my dream last night? If so, thanks for the lift.

Jeez jape, will you ever manage to write normally?
Please explain the above because i for one can't figure it out.

And i still can't figure out either how come you have so much authority to deal so much in absolutes. Are you candidating yourself for pagan pope? Has anybody elected you? Are you related to Kev in some way?

I know some Heathen witches who do. They call on the gods to aid them when doing magic. Or do you think that anything that doesn't conform to your idea of witchcraft isn't actually witchcraft? We have to remember that witchcraft is a bit of a loose term and different cultures and times had different ideas about what witches do and did, although like many things there are common traits.

Completely agree here. I've been labelled a white witch (not by myself but by others) in the past but i don't object to the term because i look at it as exactly that, a way to distinguish ones workings from what would be perceived to be "black" magic or the workings of "black" practitioners. It implies workings for a good cause as opposed to dabbling in the many shadier areas of magic.

I met a lady in Glastonbury at the weekend who described herself as a green witch which is obviously a description she's comfortable with. If i had to pick a colour i'd choose amethyst but i don't mind what colour i'm labelled so long as i'm never perceived as black.
BBs LL

I find the whole colour concept ridiculous. White, black, green... its nonsense to me. What the heck ARE black practitioners? I have never yet met anyone wanting to do harm on a daily basis, or have some sort of mad plan to take over the world. There IS no colour in magick. ALL magic has consequences, all magic has repercussions. I can not get my head around people who claim to be "white", or only do "white magic" it doesnt exist.



What does this even mean? Black mass... a xtian concept, as is black magic, to allow them to say... OUR way is the right way.. it's balls. Colour used to distinguish intent? Again... what intent? I've met a lot of eejits in my time, people who THINK they know magic, think they can use it to make themselves more popular, more confident, who think themselves as wizards, warlocks (thats another one that gets me) witches and really.. all they are are sad little boys (usually) who think its "like cool" to be different. But that does not make them "black" or any other colour it makes them pathetic.

I also have to say. That being a practicing wiccan, heathen, ANYTHING pagan or even an athiest, and someone who dabbles in magic, or even would on occasion use magic, does not make you a witch. Its like saying because you cook dinner at night your a chef. You're not.

[/quote]

So we should ignore them because they are a minority? Which if that is the case then all Pagans are evil worshippers of Satan, this is the view held by many Christians and as Christians vastly outnumber Pagans it should be up to them to make the rules.

Piffle and balderdash utter bollocks with a sprinkle of shite for good measures

The term white magic has become synonymous with love, light, healing and the likes of the publicity seekers such as Kevin Carlyon. For me there is no such thing as black or white magic, it is all down to the intent of the caster.

I know a number of Heathens who venerate the ancestors, the elves and wights (spirits of the land) don't have any magical dealings with the gods or even call upon them at all.

I also know those of various traditions who are witches who work closely with their gods as part of their craft because it is what they feel is right for them, not working with gods in your craft is right for you Jape and as such is a valid a way of working as working with their gods in their craft is for others.

Storm Raven

I know as someone without gods this comes from a biased standpoint...

But HOW do you work with magick and gods? I dont understand it. If I make, work a "spell" or working, its about the manipulation of energies. Now.. I can understand asking a god to... help you get it right, before you start, but beyond that? Magick doesnt need gods to work, and surely if you depend on you gods to make it work, then, its not magick. Its prayer with trimmings. No?

It seems you can often be insulting and suggestive but I may not on this forum, perhaps you are just more able at walking the fine lines of discourse where I am not, strange then that you do not understand plain english. You try my patience.

I talk with confidence from my own experience and belief and feel no need to explain to fools, but remain always willing to converse with intelligent souls who, although they may dislike my views or disagree, can keep control on that and debate and discuss. I have suggested before that you just do not respond to my posts rather than be insulting but as I am not very thin skinned I have tried to bridge the gap between us more than once. However, I am never particularly patient, a flaw I try and overcome. You have crossed the line again.

I do not write everything here with you in mind, I do not care whether you understand or not. You will not be alone in that, but some do understand and they correspond with me in and out of forum. So, I wish to take this nonsense between us, beyond this post for which I apologise to the thread originator, off forum as it is tedious and childish and appears to be just some sort of male ego trip on your part which I am sure no-one else further wishes to see appear as antagonism in their threads.

Perhaps if you explain it to me privately by PM I will be able to understand your constant and egotistic carping at me. Then I will either educate you or deal with you depending on your actual rather than self-assumed significance.

Black Magick I've heard used regarding Satanic cults and also the term 'white' witch is frequently used. I think that they(christians, catholics) use this term to feel less guilty about going to 'see' her, because of the church's views on this. It's convenient also for the Witch. But the Witch does allsorts really, mostly warding off 'evil' eyes and the one that I knew, was also psychic.

I don't think that the colour is relevant either, but it's a personal choice, just as it is as to what you call yourself.

Jeez Xalle. You Jape's sister??
Black magick exists. You can argue all you want from the point of view of a modern pagan witch. But What about christain witches? Are you telling me that they do not exist?
because you have not met any? Is your definition of witch the only valid one. Do you know nothgn of christianity? The devil and how all that crap works?
You live in one little country in a big world. Thinair even says there are witches in africa. So are they the same or different or are they just inventions because they don't conform to your idea of witchcraftr?? Are catholic witches inventions too? Talk about narrow minded.
And your words

"I've met a lot of eejits in my time, people who THINK they know magic, think they can use it to make themselves more popular, more confident, who think themselves as wizards, warlocks (thats another one that gets me) witches and really.. all they are are sad little boys (usually) who think its "like cool" to be different. But that does not make them "black" or any other colour it makes them pathetic."

Sorry if i offend but boy am i getting tired of you implying that YOU and only YOU have all the world's knowledge on witches and witchcraft. Yours is only an OPINION.
Others on this forum might perhaps have their opinions too and continually setting yourself up as the authority on the subject and everything conerned with it is beginning to annoy.

What is magic? How do you define it? It is different for different cultures. If magic is the manipulation of energies then that's a wide net which takes in a lot of science as well. We manipulate energy constantly - converting energy into heat, for instance.

I think you have just restated what I actually said Wulfric!

I made my first statement as a witch and replied to the thread premise, then expanded it as a witch to explain there is a difference between being a witch and being a magick worker who calls themself a witch, and that as a witch you can use magick but that is not what a witch is or does. Magick is one tool of the witch is all. I then went on to say that outside of my own stricter definitions of witch, there are modern values to the name witch that are less narrow. That doesn't make them right though.

Of course, I do expect that the term 'witch' used here is UK based - allowed broadly enough it still meets my definitions because they (other British witches) would understand the concepts I use even if their individual practise and choice varies from my path. Other cultures and beliefs will have 'witches' but their definitions will not apply here. And as all here are in the main 'pagan' rather than 'witch', naturally there is misunderstanding at times as we cannot write an essay to explain or prove every minor post or point we make - but hopefully questions and answers like this that do not go too far off course aid the threads.

You funny little weasel! Of course Xalle is my sister! She is witch. And make your mind up, you gave me the accolade of the 'all knowing Woozle angering wiseguy', now you are giving it to Xalle! I am honoured to share with her.

Mod Hat on

Jape and Woozle, this is directed solely at you two.

Woozle, your post was (deliberately?) provocative and for that reason only I have let Jape's reply to that go. You've each had your jibe. Equal, no claims of victimisation/favouritism etc.

But that's it. If you two want to duel, snipe, bicker, argue at each other, then take it off forum. You both know where the Ignore User function is, so either use it, or use your own common sense, but do not bait each other on forum again.

Kinda hopping back to the start of the thread (leaving all the interesting grrness aside for a moment) I think the biggest issues I have with 'white' or 'black' magic is the way that it supports colonial ideas of whiteness/blackness. Personally, it's something I want to move away from. I don't believe there is a 'colour or magic', it's intent, and most things aren't black or white but shades of grey.

Q

Point taken.

Petty.. and an attempt to insult, which it doenst. Sorry.



Right... lets take it slowly since reading seems to be causing you some problems.

I said, you can be a witch of ANY faith. You can be a xtain witch (although I think that one opens up a whole can of worms) you can be a wiccan witch, you can be a heathen witch, you can be any faith and be a witch.. I am sorry if I didnt make that clear.



Im going to ignore this comment, and assume if comes from a misunderstanding of the above.



What exactly has that to do with witchcraft? With being a witch? How the devil works?? Whats that got to do with anything? Is it that you believe the devil is the one who encourages, entices, black magic? Or is that what the xtain witches believe? Either way, I dont really see how their faith has bearing on magic, it doesnt/shouldnt. How they justfiy to themselves is comepletely by the by.



What? Did you get up this morning and think.. " I know I'll just wander into discussions and completely misinterpret what people write and get pissy with them over it!" Catch a grip! I am well aware there are witches in other countries. Im also pretty sure there are some catholic witches.. so what? Where did I say there couldnt be? Most witches that I've met, no matter what country they come from OR faith for that matter, do conform to what I consider to be a witch. Because a witch no matter where he or she is, is a witch. First and foremost. How they interpret what they do, justify what they are, or come to terms with their craft and their faith is entirely up to them.



And? What do you want from me? Im entitled to my opinion, I am entitled to the opinion that people are wrong. How is this any different from any other debate? You dont like my opinion, or from the looks of this debate and your last couple of posts, it might be more accurate to say you dont understand it? My response is...

Its not my problem. I have equal fedupedness of everyone wandering round saying things like.. "whatever way you WANT to do something is the way you should do it." "No-one is wrong..." "Everyone is right and entitled to lable themselves what they like" What that results in, is the wanker I met a few months ago that CLAIMS to be a Wiccan HP, but actually doesnt know his arse from his elbow! Anyone can be any faith, no effort, no understanding, no knowledge. I have no real problem with people calling themselves witches when in reality all they are is dabblers, because there isnt another word for them. What pisses me off, is when they then try and tell me what being a witch is, and start talking nonsense about black and white magic.

Having just had a slapped wrist and though i would love to reply I think it best not to.

Woozle, you should be able to debate this without being personal or petty. If you have something to say, say it. Im a big girl, I can take it.

Ooh I don't know if this should be hived of as a thread on it's own, cos it's a very interesting idea.

For me, the craft side is the 'workings' I do. The 'faith' side is my belief/s, my relationship with deity, but for me those two are so intricately entwined, and it’s hard to know where one ends and where the other begins.

I don't necessarily agree that it's just prayer with trimmings. I think it's just thing that atheist pagans and God lurving pagans do slightly different things to a similar end. I've been trying to think of a stunning analogy but can't, so this will have to do.

For the purpose of this not too fabulous analogy magic is going to be 'making a cup of tea'

Deity lurving pagans are going to use an electric kettle.

Atheist pagans are going to use a billy can on an open fire.

My relationship with deity means that I can nip into the kitchen flick a switch.

Not wishing to offend the Gods by likening them to household appliances, but for me, working with and through deity (and occasionally deity working with and through me) is a way of harnessing and using energy.

Atheist pagans, for whatever reason, have a different way of harnessing and using power/energies.

The point is both ways will boil water!

Q

Thank you Queenie!

Thats a cracking way of explaining it.