Death. That's it folks, all done, all gone – or is it?

For many this is a core part of their belief but I don't see much discussion here or anywhere else. Point me at threads I have missed if I am wrong because from time to time this computer goes off for months at a time deliberately, while I do other things in life and magick.

I have been watching some-one I care for a great deal live a desperate life of out-of-control addiction and rapidly approaching total bodily breakdown and mental meltdown. It is on my mind a lot lately, how to pass on my own belief. Not for comfort, that doesn't concern me, more for instruction and aid while they have some mental facility left. Otherwise, I choose not to intervene further. Not simple at all, the concepts I would use require a certain amount of experience to understand.

So. This subject can only be a matter of conjecture, faith, hope for any of us unless we have clear personal experience of re-incarnation or in some cases, witchcraft incarnation. That last is often an area meant not to be discussed and is part of the 'under oath' secret or mystery of some paths and orders.

I am not constrained by this but as I know my personal understanding closely follows that of some here, I will be discreet and not refer by name to any particular teaching in any discussion that may follow. I would like to see what others here think death really is, whether witch, pagan, heathen or ceremonial magician – not just a two line restatement of some creed such as 'return to the great over-mind', but personal thought at length. Thanks.

Wow Jape.

Fantastic topic.

Im going to go off and work out my answer... I want to be honest! Get it out there and expressed correctly!

My beliefs best match the Buddhist theology. Actually, I've reason to think that the Druidic beliefs were the same, or similar.

Everybody has a soul, or a life-force, or an energy imprint of some kind. Maybe it's best to use the term "energy-imprint" as this has less emotional resonance than some of the other terms.
When you die, your energy-imprint is used by other life-forms. EITHER it dissipates and disperses among other living creatures - a thousand blades of grass, a few hundred ants, a dozen sparrows, half a horse, a tenth of an elephant - something like that - OR it is reused, pretty nearly in-situ. Stories from India, where they study these things, show that there are a lot of kids who remember previous lives, up until they are about nine years old. Then they get interested in other things. The previous lives tend to be from monks or people with strong religious practices in meditation. It would seem that meditation strengthens the coherence of the energy-imprint.
The way this belief differs from that of Hindus and other reincarnationists, is that the energy-imprint is divisible. So one human could be a thousand blades of grass or a tenth of an elephant. Similarly, it accounts for previous-lives stories where one individual has memories of two individuals who were alive at the same time.

After dying, the energy imprint doesn't move directly to another residence, but stays a while on the plane of the dead (the "Bardo Thodol" according to the Tibetan Book of the Dead). The stronger your imprint, the longer you'll last here. Typically an individual is said to last 40 days. This would be "Summerlands" in Pagan terms - you might meet all kinds of life-forms there. You're also liable to visions of whatever gods and demons you believed in, in life. They're just illusions, to you can happily ignore them.
After a while you'll see people engaged in sexual activity. You'll be drawn to particular couples, or particular individuals. Choose them with care. They'll be your parents next time.

I started a Similar thread to this on another forum.
but i asked how different paths dealt with death
below is part of what i posted for me

I cope by believeing what I was brought up with(ancestors spiritulism etc)
I have been to lots of different funerals inculding a catholic one (not my cup of tea) and find the human Death culture fansinating
my muggle mates recon I am morbid
maybe I am but death is something that comes to us all why ignore it and why fear it

Moj

I am heathen and a lot of heathens deal with the ancestors. we have many halls to which the ancestors can go to. Death is usually harder on the people left in this plane than those who pass over

hope i understood ya right jape

Mojie

I think death is another state of "being". We understand "being" as alive-ness in this world, because our wee brains can't really comprehend anything beyond, in the same way we can't comprehend the infinity of space, but I think that the term "death" has such negative and final meaning when it's a different kind of existence, in different parameters and with different consciousness.

If you think of life/death, as two halves of a sphere, then the death part is simply another part of the whole, as valid and with as much to teach and learn from as the other half, life.

To put it short and sweet, I really don't know and I doubt I will ever really know until my time comes.

For years I keep pondering it from time to time, sometimes I feel that it will be a new beginning, a reincarnation to another being etc, other times I feel it will be an end completely a "gateway into nothingness" so to speak.

Last year when I had an operation and went under a general anaesthetic, it scared me somewhat, because when I came round there was just no recollection of anything while under.. No dreams, no memories, no anything... total absence of anything to let me know that two hours had passed by. It scared me somewhat and did make me question again, "Is this what death will be like?" is it just a passage into non existence, a lack of any form of conciousness?



I think death is harder on those left behind, rather than those who have gone. even if death is a passage into nothingness it doesn't matter as you will have no conciousness for it to bother you. if it's a reincarnation then you will only have vague patchy memories of your past life. and if you go to the halls of your ancestors then you will be surrounded by those who loved you and who you loved those of us left behind are left with a concious emptiness where once our loved ones filled that void.

I still am not sure what I believe death is, but this thread has renewed my thinking on it again.

To quote a rather good book;

"to die would be an awfully big adventure"

Personally, I think it's one of those things thats beyond our comprehension, for now, but we'll all work it out in the end, when we do.

Read this if you dare!:

http://www.emergentmind.org/MillerWebbI3a.htm

No thanks I prefer plain English rather than quantum holography scientific jargon I cant understand... and no it's not because I'm thick either...

I don't think it matters.

I believe that the core, the soul, the essence, goes on after death.

But if I'm wrong, then there is the reliance on physics. Energy cannot be created or destroyed, and every atom of our bodies is made up of pure energy, mixed with quite a lot of nothingness. Even when I am spiritually gone from this earth, the energy that my body is made up of, the energy that creates the electrical impulses of my consciousness, this energy will go on and will become something else. Even if there is no after life, one day I will be the trees, the sea, the wind that blows, the snow that sits on the mountain, or even the mountain itself. How very exciting!

Rhiannon

For you the simple version:

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_adn10.htm

Now I'm not being difficult, but is there an italian version also so that i might understand it even in two languages

Jokes aside, interesting read.

Good link. I'm going to print it off and read it at leisure later.

I am not sure I can explain the interference patterns of co-ordinated awareness and the holographic instantaneous consciousness (creating self) that exists between energy stabiles and waveform telepathic IEG's, to a dying drug addict Quasi! But thanks. It confirmed a lot I had worked out myself.

That is it isn't it? What we work out for ourself might give us peace or acceptance but how do you pass that to another troubled soul locked in negative energy feedback patterns of fear, self-loathing, and full of drugs that repress the actual energetic cycles of reinformation and healing?

My individual problem was, I thought, how to teach/show the understanding that brings me peace but already in reading all the above posts I have realised I don't need to do that. Just love and maybe be there if she dies. I will walk with her where I can and show her love if I have the opportunity.

It is my wish to help and that is a natural part of the connection amongst all that I recognise. In vaguely quantum terms, she is dead already and I needed to recognise that consciously for myself and not impose my own life will on her.

Back to the thread.

Death. Of the individual. Inevitable unless the coherent consciousness is able to hold the patterns after physical organism death? A sense of self that will remain or rekindle even if the particular labels are lost? interesting stuff so far, ta.

My own belief is that I will join my ancestors in their hall. So death is but one stage on our particular journey. In that I suppose there is some solace.

However, I must be open to the possibility that my beliefs, or all our varying beliefs, are a load of old hogwash and all that will actually happen when death comes is ... nothing. We just cease to function - our bodies and minds slowly dissipating and the energies that once bound us escaping to be recycled. No soul, no consciousness, no reincarnation, nothing.

But hey ho, we'll find out one day

This is a great topic.

Death it seems is not a major issue within Paganism. I know of no Pagan path in which death is the main focus, unlike Christianity which is a religion of death, if you were to take death out of Christianity the religion would cease to be.

What are my thoughts on death? Simple, I’ll know when I die (eschatological verification).

Here’s something to think about: what is it about a rock that makes it non-living and an animal living when, at its basic level, everything is (or at least appears to be) made up of the same stuff?

Perhaps then if everything is made up the same stuff then nothing is living, or perhaps everything is living; either way there would be no death.

Is life to be defined as ‘matter and energy behaving in a certain way’?

Of course this is all abstract thinking and does little to change the human* reality of death.

*also magpies and elephants (there are probably more but I can’t think of any)

I believe that every living thing has a spirit or soul which never dies, never fades. When a persons body dies the spirit is reincarnated and becomes part of another living thing, whether it be plant or animal. I think its all part of a learning process and that once you've reached a state of enlightenment you move on to a place of rest.

hmm, flaw in the argument, if we become dissipated nothingness (can that exist, lol)
we won't find out!

I think death is a mystery and we won't truly know what happens until we experience it......

Jape I don't know if this is of any help in the situation but will recount it anyway. I worked as a senior care assistant for around a decade and in that time was faced with the dead and dying many times, some would go peacefully and others would go fighting all the way kicking and screaming (literally) to the last breath. there were times I wanted to help ease someone's passing, and can remember several instances where I did this. How did I do it? by talking to them about the good things in life basically....
Their fear stemmed from a feeling of not realy knowing if there life had been worth it in a sense along with the fear of the unknown on the other side... I remember one old lady in her 90's who was terrified and fought for so long, I sat with her all night, and started talking about her old hobbies and pastimes. (I knew she liked to bake for her family so mentioned that, and described the smells of fresh baked bread, or of Cinnamon and spices in cookies and Cakes etc. I tried to invoke those pleasant memories for them. mentioned her grandchildren and their visits to her, the games she used to play with them etc... anything and everything to bring out the happy times she had lived. Then mentioned her relatives who had passed before her, telling her they would be waiting for her to meet her with open arms etc this gave her a sense that it wasn't all totally unknown when she passed over, there would be those she knew there waiting etc.
For her it worked, she died in the early hours of the morning with a smile on her face instead of the fear that had been etched there previously.

Is it possible to do something similar in the situation that you are facing. some way to help their passing be easier than it is. you don't really need to bring about comfort by explaining your own beliefs on the subject, but more try tap into their own beliefs about it.

The information I provide for your own understanding, however, in the application of shamanic healing, you could explain to him about the divided or fragmented soul. Here are a couple of links that give you a general idea of how that works:

http://website.lineone.net/~dr.mgm/index-soul.html

http://www.kondor.de/shaman/texteindex_e.html
Specifically this section: http://www.kondor.de/shaman/soulloss.html

I think Ive said this before, was it here?
I spent years trying to figure out what happens, but despite having had 3 out of bodies and speaking to a couple of ghosts, Im none the wiser! So Im just focusing on living now!
So in short I dont know or especially care, if something happens after this, I'll notice, if it doesnt, I wont!
My Shamanic Beliefs tell me that the Spirit is made of 3 parts, the Suld, Ami and Suns.
This I feel explains why I have no past life experiences, when everyone is always telling me Im an Old Soul!
The Suld returns to Nature after Death, it is very Individualistic and only resides in a person once, it has no Past Life experiences.
The Ami is related to our genetics and can be reborn in our Bloodline.
The Suns is more like the Spirit we generally think of, after Death it returns to the Underworld, but can be a Ghost, it does carry Past Life experiences and can be Reincarnated, though not necessarily within the same Bloodline.
So to return to this Incarnation there must be another Group Spirit formed, possibly even more than one! But there must be 3 parts to each.
Its an interesting idea, from Mongolian Shamanism, I prefer it to most ideas!
As to whether its true or not????

after death

Well I am going to be controversial I think - I don't get reincarnation! My beliefs are probably a hang over from my xian days but I believe we go on to 'the summerlands' and stay there meeting our ancestors and friends/family who have predeceased us and just have a good time!

Broken Link!

Odd - works for me.

Death is something we can achieve in life and we don't have to jump off a high building to do it! Before the detractors and nit pickers jump in, let me say that I realise all of my experiences and interpretations are subjective and can be viewed in other ways, from delusion and illusion to insanity. I prefer 'personal enlightenment' as the descriptor! It is part of my path understanding and is also experienced by others in the same path in the same or very similar way. That is what makes a tradition, similar understanding that is transferable to others.
Through meditation and ritual work over several days and needing more than one attempt, one process I used was to travel inwards to a place where my sense of self was tenuous to say the least, a mere observer of my own mind and then beyond.
As I find a point of balance between myself and the Other, a major principle of my magickal working, I usually get knocked away by various energies, sometimes impulses of need or desire, sometimes subconscious urges and sometimes just extraneous input that seems to have no connection. Still, I observe and that can lead to understanding of an issue to be resolved, a breakthrough in understanding of myself as a human being or even a vision of a purpose or connection that is shaped toward me. The main tool is openness to possibility coupled with acceptance.
In the working I was doing, to follow the sense of self as witch, I managed to achieve a good balance of breath and heartbeat and hold it. One of my methods is to use that technique. I have others. I was then filled with a flood of imagery and emotion. I will describe it briefly as a vision of myself as many beings, all connected with the same sense of self, but of course, nothing of 'jape' other than as observer. I saw the cycles of life and death in a linear manner, passing through this being of many lifetimes and I saw that that connection was what is called 'witch incarnate', born to more than one life and with inner knowledge of that.
The term 'linear' is limiting and incomplete as I also experienced another chain of connection, let us say at a different angle, from the viewpoint of awareness and energy in which I was quite 'low' in the chain but still as one with the higher self. the glimpse of higher self was a connection to what in my path is known as the witch mother, at once the beginning and the end, the Source. It is also your own angelic energy in a ceremonial magick school I am conversant with. And as an aside, some feel it is the true connection to ancestral energy, not to your mum and dad and good old great great great grandpapa, but as your own ancestor.
The extrapolations possible from that experience and others are many. Here the relevant point is that death is not for me a final darkness and disconnection but just the interface between lives. Whether there is a timeless space of peace, a conscious awareness in-between or not doesn't matter for me, I was not looking into that.
'jape' will not be the name of my next self probably, and I will not regret that much! jape has been a bugger to be and at times I even look forward to death.
There are some interesting corollaries to this that may interest some. I have also explored in this way why I am attracted to the bow and swords, only some types not in general and in meditation I have experienced the sensation of holding and using these weapons. I have also done this with sex, art and dance and have experienced and displayed subtle understandings and abilities I have absolutely no waking skill or practise in!
Also, I have taken a few people over the years into joint trance where the vision is shared. That is well worth trying for anyone who is scared of their powers. The connection is immensely re-assuring even if it keeps falling away before any journey is achieved. I have walked with a young female witch into trance and watched as she experienced her own awakening as 'incarnate witch'. Well, far more than watched, I experienced her being. I now know what it is to possess a womb and other bits! This is one of the mysteries of craft work and tradition and is I believe the real background to what Wiccans use as third degree initiation. I also believe from talking to a good few Wiccans that few do it right! But, her experience was intrinsically the same as mine.
I have other stories I could recount that have made me at peace with death. This one will do for now.

Thank you very much for that. It is a good help for me as however detached I have trained myself to be, to see an ex-lover and friend choose such a road is almost impossible to bear, I always want to dive in and save her. But of course, I may not and will not. I hope that the situation I have put into place will enable her to save herself, and if it doesn't I hope I will be there to walk part of the way with her.
Loving, as you so obviously do HOS, is a very very powerful energy and needs no shaping or ritual. I will do my best to do follow where you have led. thanks. jape

Well, it works in that it links to a UKPagan page. But the page says:

"Sorry, an error occurred. If you are uncertain how to use a feature..."

And the addressline shows a search URL with nothing after the equals.

FRED: That link works for me too and I have no idea why it doesn't for you.
Try this:
http://thevalley.ukpagan.com/http://thevalley.ukpagan.com/index.php?showtopic=21713&hl=

Or copy and paste it

don't work for me neither mate, i reckon there is a bit missing after the = when you cut and paste it

Don't be so quick to consign any lack of belief in reincarnation to hangovers from Christianity....
Reincarnation was a part of some sects in early Christianity, there is still some debate as to whether there was any idea of reincarnation in Northern Europe pre conversion era or not!

There are a few of us out there that dont get reincarnation

As for death, I've nearly been there and I can tell you what happened to me.

I was being choked to death in the middle of nowhere in the Pyranees by some not so nice chappie. Originally there had been a large party of us but folks had paired off and f**ed off and I was left with him. He tried to get me to sleep with him, I refused, he called me a lesbian, I called him gay and the next moment I have hands round my throat and Im on the floor fighting for breath.

Now this sounds awful but I never look at it as being that because I learnt some valuable stuff from this. Firstly I learnt that being throttled hurts like hell and is scary as hell up to a point. The point when the realisation hits that you're going to die and then it all becomes calm. You don't notice the pain or the fear anymore and you feel all floaty.

At this point I was losing consciousness and had been oxygen deprived for a pretty dangerous amount of time (the git was squeezing so hard that he left finger and handprint bruises around my neck).

So I was there, ready to float off or whatever we do when we pop it and there was no tunnel of light, there was nothing of the sort just this really comforting feeling and flashing back through life and darkness.

Cut a long story short....this voice that came from outside of me told me 'like fuck you're going like this' and I somehow managed to kick him in the head, get up and run through the woods.

Maybe I wasnt far enough along to see the good stuff, but from what I did see it wasnt that scary - which is kind of good because death is one of the few constants in life but I think its down to how you approach it.

I went away and thought really long and hard about this and about what I think death is and after a couple of days of serious thought.. I have come to the conclusion that I dont know, I havent a clue what happens, (funny that.. no one really does), however, I know that there seems to be a difference between what I hope would happen and what does.

I mean, everyone would like to think that there is something after, that there is another form of conscious, a summer lands or heaven or something, me included regardless of my athiesim because I would like to think that eternal happyness is an available option! Who wouldnt! but Im not convinced. There is nothing I have experienced that would lead me to believe that is the case.

I think about ghosts and spirits. I know they exist, Ive seen them. I know why I THINK they are there and I know why I THINK others arent. I believe, that our energy dissipates, that it holds form briefly, and then kinda disolves like invisible mist. I cant explain the exact HOW spirits hold together or stay in one place, or even why, even if I do have my theories but I know... like I know I have fingers that some do.

I cant explain reincarnation. I cant figure out with what I know about science and energy how that works, in fact, I dont think it should but I believe that it does, it must in happen in some way because there are too many things in my own life I cant explain unless it does. So I've had to form tenuous links between my science, my knowledge of the world and how it works and my actual experiences. I can not reconcile them all.

I also wonder why not everyone has these experiences. I mean, if we do reincarnate, why do so few remember anything. Does anyone else remember more than one life, one era? I do. I remember objects, and places and things. Dont mean I have complete memories, but there are objects I loath, and I know I loath them becuse of something I remember... I just cant remember what. Does that make sense to anyone else?

Finally.. I think I have always been a woman. I have no idea why, I cant see why that would be the case, energy doesnt have a sex....

So... to sum up. I dont know what death is, but for some reason I dont fear it. I fear the dying. I also fear I'll be back again.

Upon my body dying I will be released from this slow and painful plane of existence and be able to move freely among the worlds. The restraints and limitations of this Earthly plane will cease to bind me or my Magic.

Personally, death is just a change in state of being. I don't know what comes after death, I don't know if our energy just returns to the earth.

I had past life regression, and those experiences were interesting (but to paraphrase Jape, those experiences might be considered by other to be simply delusion or illusion).

I don't know if this makes me fluffy as a cotton tail, but I sincerely believe that life is a journey and the purpose is to love and learn as much as you can (Practicing as much random kindness and senseless acts of beauty on the way). I like the idea that when we die we can take time out or choose to return to learn and experience new things. To me the afterlife is just a big waiting room in an educational institution, were we flick through the prospectus and choose our next courses.

As to supporting someone terminally ill, Herne gave some very sound advice.

I think Jape that you are doing all you can. Being with her, giving yourself, your time, just talking and hand holding, while it may sound trite, is probably all she needs. I don't think you have to be taught about death it’s a process. I think (and I could be wrong) that you just don't want her to be afraid, you've had insights that you want to share, to remove the fears, you feel she faces.

When doing a working for the dying, generally all I do is ask that the passing be as pain free and fear free as possible. Sometimes something to guide the soul to where it should go (and its odd how when you try to do that, you find that it's managed quite well without any interference thank you very much).

I lost a lovely lad to a terminal illness, had the shittest life you could imagine. Being ill was the first time he'd got any positive attention in his life.

We'd talk about death, dying, what lay beyond. I think it's the death part that scares the dying witless. Will it be painful, undignified, will I be alone, those kind of things. I think that if you can let her know that you will walk with her until the end, you'll have done all that needs doing.

Sorry if I've waffled I keep pausing to think of that lad.

At his funeral, there were more ‘professionals’ there than he's own family.

I had a bunch of teenagers, hard arsed street kids, balling their eyes out.

We were by the graveside, another youth worker was wearing a skirt, it kept blowing over her head and exposing her fusia pink panties, a male Salvation Army youth worker couldn't stop staring at the aforementioned panties, now it's my sincere believe that was a last joke played by our dearly departed, exactly his kind of humour, it had us laughing, as my colleague desperately tried to keep her wayward skirt down, muttering 'It's only a pair of legs, you'd think he'd never seen a pair', to which I replied 'I don’t think it’s the legs he’s concerned with, he's Sally Ann, he’s probably considered that women have legs, but lingerie is probably a whole new world to him'.

But sorry I digress, but that's possibly another thing that the dying want, is to know that we will remember them with affection, keeping their memory alive is perhaps another little way to achieve immortality.

Q

As I said in the other thread I like to believe in some sort of afterlife with my ancestors, whoever they may be. I'm not afraid of death, although now I am scared of leaving my son alone; something which has never bothered me about anyone else before. I like to think of death as being like the end of "The Lord of the Rings" when Frodo goes into the West:

"...Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air and heard the sound of singing that came over the water. And then it seemed to him......the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a far green country under a swift sunrise."

I also love the bits in "Havamal" about death and rememberance:

A son is a blessing, though born late
To a father no longer alive:
Stones would seldom stand by the highway
If sons did not set them there.

and:

Cattle die, kindred die,
Every man is mortal:
But the good name never dies
Of one who has done well

Cattle die, kindred die,
Every man is mortal:
But I know one thing that never dies,
The glory of the great dead

Herne & Queenie- I found your posts very moving. People like you are truly special.

Hi Fred

I think that I know what the problem is. You may not be a member of The Archives in the Special Groups section.

I hope this helps.

From your link:

"The same researchers suspect the ability of chromosomes to transform their own genetic-sign laser radiations into broadband genetic-sign radio waves. The polarizations of chromosome laser photons are connected nonlocally and coherently to polarizations of radio waves. (Thus, we seem to have an explicit physical analogue for the traditional mystical apprehension of "inner light" and the "audible life stream"). This is the main information channel of DNA, the same for both photons and radio waves. Superposed coherent waves of different types in the cells interact to form diffraction patterns, firstly in the acoustic domain, secondly in the electromagnetic domain -- a quantum hologram -- a translation process between acoustical and optical holograms."

This once again suggests to me the spiral patterns so beloved of our ancestors, such as those at Newgrange, etc. Also the use of sound in trancework. Maybe they knew things which have since been lost/suppressed? Could explain a LOT of phenomena...