Would the Experts on UKP agree that *Seidr* is Witchcraft

I dont know an awful lot about it myself. I've done a little online reading around it, but dont seem to be able to get beyond sites that tell me that its a form of meditation. Im not sure that I would lable it Witchcraft. I would definately lable it craft tho, a form of magick. What I mean is, it appears to be a technique rather than the whole of the thing... but I could have completely misunderstood that...

If you could ppint me in the general direction of a site or book that can explain it more fully I'd be appreicative!

Oh.. and BTW... I dont think anyone claims to be an expert.

As I understand it 'Seidr', is a form of Astral Projection / Journeying Method, performed from a raised platform which allows you to travel to the Otherworlds using your Power Animals form, most commonly performed by Volvas??
If this is the case, then it sounds more Shamanic than Wiccan to me.

Sorry! Totally misread that lastish bit!.

aaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrgh! shiver, the very thought of wiccans as witches, lol
as a non expert, I would say same as Xalle (hi) that it is a 'magickal' technique similar to some in witchcraft employed by practitioners of a path that some would call a religion ...

Dr Jenny Blain's Nine Worlds of Seidr-Magic is a good read. Runic John's Book of Seidr is also good.

Shamanism.

I think its more a shamanic practice that has kinda carried through to other paths/beliefs.

But again, I'm no expert, unless you take ex - has been, spurt - drips under pressure.

Or is this just a topic to see who thinks they're an 'expert'?

I wondered that too!

But then I didn't think that Wolvie would be so... provocative...?

Or would he??

Dear Wolvie,



Surely one of the defining characteristics of Experts is that they don't agree about things?

I'm not an expert of any kind but at least some Witches certainly practice Seidr. That includes some Wiccan Witches, Jape, so if you truly believe...



...then I'm afraid you have a very shivery life ahead of you, and might be well advised to take to your bed with a hot water bottle and a glass of toddy lest you suffer the indignity of having other Witches, possibly even Wiccan ones, kindly offering you healing spells .

Seidr seems to be a reasonably well defined magical technique. However Witchcraft is a rather pragmatic business and Witches seem to draw on whatever magical techniques they know and find both appropriate and useful for the purpose in hand, so I'm not sure if it's possible to categorise a particular magical technique as 'Witchcraft' or 'Not Witchcraft' on its own merits. Wouldn't the answer depend on the context Seidr was being used within?

Best Wishes,

John Macintyre (who is desperately resisting the urge to unleash terrible puns about Heathen Witches travelling between the worlds using Volvos)

John, seriously... tea spat all over my computer is not good for it

I THINK when Jape said about the whole Wiccan witch thing, it was because Cornish, by his comment, seemed to think that witches and wiccans were one and the same thing... I think what hea meant to say, was what I was going to point out (again... its something we seem to have to say on here every week)


"AHEM"

*clears throat and rummages in bag pulling out a small brown lump*

"THIS is an old chestnut... and on it are the words..."Not all witches are wiccans, not all wiccans are witches"... I thank you for your time and attention!"

You might find THIS THREAD on another site to be of interest, I'm sure it will answer your question Wolvie

Surely sejd must be shamanic? And I supose you are talking about Völvor (more than one) or a völva. Or was it Volvo? Makes sort of sense since the Völva travelled between worlds. But then, the sejd should be the Volvo, and not the Völva.
But I am no expert. I travel by bloody Rover. And the occational drink. Not at the same time however.

Deerheart

Thank you Herne, very interesting

ooo! that looks like an interesting forum.

can any old heathen join or is it for a Kindred.


dav

Sorry to confuse everyone with my term 'Wiccan', you are correct Xalle, when you define my terms of Witchcraft, I tend to say 'Wiccan' to include ALL 'Witches', because I cant be bothered to list every type of Witch, every time i want to use the Witch word!
Im not intending to be insulting, but if I listed everyone in every form of Witchcraft, Druidry, Shamanism, Heathenism, etc,etc, Id never get around to the actual reply!
Deerhearts version of my late night spelling is spot on and I love the idea of travelling between the Worlds in a Volvo, but I'll continue to use my Jag for now!
Wolverine, l guess you must be one of the so called 'Experts' as you have already answered your own question elsewhere!
You also spend a lot of time talking about the Shamanic Aspects of this Witchcraft.
As Shamanism is the older of the 2 religions, I stick to my guns and say Shamanism in its origin, though it may have been adapted to Witchcraft usage!

yup, and I usually add the bit about ceremonial magick practises not being witchcraft too and that one of my best friends is Alexandrian, lineaged what is more and that all healing energies sent my way by wiccan witches are gratefully accepted, thanks Mr Mac, always because I KNOW wiccan witches can't wish me harm.

I think Mr Wolvie was being provocative or at least ironic, I would hate to think of anyone on UKP being sarcastic. Before lunch anyway.

Oooh!

Regarding the "witch" issue tho Cornish, I would suggest you just use the term "witch" rather than "wiccan". Wicca is a specific religion. Witchcraft is not. You may as well then say... I use the term "Druid" to mean all Witches.... Its just, incorrect.

I dunno, does it matter that much how we label something, isn't it the experience that counts most and what we understand of it?


fizz

Hi Fizz!!!

Well.. yes, but that doesnt mean you go around calling a hen a penguin and saying it doent really matter cos they're all birds, you should use the term Birds... not sure Im making myself clear here...

Dear Jape,



Do you attribute that to an inherent incompatibility between Ceremonial Magic and Witchcraft, or simply to the fact that the former was developed by, and largely restricted to, people from a social class who would probably never - at least until relatively recent years - have considered what they did as Witchcraft?

I'm asking that because I can't see any reason why, for example, if a Witch was practiced in the Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram, and felt it to be appropriate for a working s/he was doing, s/he should not incorporate it within that working. And if s/he did that, in what sense would it not be Witchcraft?

BB,

John Macintyre

Dear Xalle,



But think of the social benefits. Wiccans could stop to catch their breath. Druids would have the perfect justification for clouting folk with sickles and flinging chairs around in self-defence.... .

BB,

John Macintyre

I would say that Seidhr is more Witchcraft than Shamanism.

Yes you do have the trance journeying between worlds malarky but I would say that's Northern European themed core shamanism. I dont know about anyone else on here but Im yet to find any evidence that folks went off fannying about around the worlds....

Never mind attempting to find a definition for "Witchcraft" and "Seidr" - -what about defining "expert"? Or even "expertise"...

Hey - at least I know what a Volvo is - only mine's a Micrap - does that count?

Heh, I'll second that motion!

Hi Xalle.
yeah, sure I get what you mean there, its about distinquishing types of things?

fizz xx

I kinda agree with you on this. I dont think Ceremonial Magic is witchcraft, but I again dont see why it cant be used within it. Its kinda like the thread a wee while ago about knot magick. Someone got hissy about it not being from "here" and it wasnt something that witches would have used and I think thats just daft. Witches use what works in my experience. I had mentioned in that thread how some areas of craft I was useless at or, more accurately... I couldn't connect with and I found, that (thanks to the joys of the internet and tv... ) other cultures, witchcraft cultures be that Druidisim, wicca, voudoo, shamanisim, cermonial magic, from here, africa, spain, wherever, have allowed me to make connections in other ways to what I am doing. So sure, why not aspects of ceremonial magic.

Yup... there are certain things you can atribute to all birds, wings, feathers, beaks, eggs... that makes them birds. Same goes for witches. After that, they fall into their categories, hen, duck, penguin, wiccan, athiest, druid. You cant use the word Wiccan, to denote witches, no more than you can use Penguin to denote "birds".

Right, so following my passing comment about it being 'more Shamanism than Wiccan',we appear to have established that Wiccans are not Witches, No, thats not even correct is it? Some are, some arent!
so does that mean Alexandrian and Gardnerians are Witches? Or is it purely Traditionals and Hereditaries ( excluding the Alexandrians and Gardnerians who could probably classify themselves as this), then there are the Heathens, who I assume may or may not call themselves Witches!
Oh and the Christian Witches (that just does my nut in!), and the Seax lot......!!!
This all seems very confusing????!!!
Druids dont generally argue about these sorts of things Ive noticed, I dont see Shamanic Practioners arguing about their paths either, maybe this is why I dont classify myself as a Witch, though many people call me that!
So in future I will refrain from using the term Wiccan and replace it with Witches!

Is there an Expert who can define who is or isnt a witch, please?

I"ll be watching for the answer to this one with baited breath.

You really are having a problem with this arent you!

All those things, Christians, wiccans, druids, alexandrianisim, Gardnerian, heathens, seax, shamanisim are all PATHS. Within those paths you can also be a witch. Think of it this way. If you scooped up a handful of people, they would be all sorts of relions... christians, muslim, jewish but some of them would have blue eyes, you might even be more likely to find blue eyes within one of the groups, but it is NOT relevant. Eye colour does not denote faith and faith does not denote eye colour. Same goes for being a vegetarian, you MIGHT find more... I dunno... buddists are vegetarian, but it is not confined to that religion or any other faith for that matter and the fact that someone IS a vegetarian, does not automaticly make them anything other than a vegetarian.

The fact you find it confusing is unfortunate, but it doesnt mean we just chuck terms about and lable people incorrectly because we have problems getting our heads around things.

Er, I think you'll find that all Wiccans are witches.

However, not all witches are Wiccans.

In other words, there are a lot of witches who are not Wiccans.

You're unlikely to piss a witch off by referring to 'witches' as a general terms, rather than a whole list of witches of different religions or none.

Oh, thanks Xalle! I think that helps!
I never have these sorts of problems at Moots, honest!
So a Witch is a type of person, who can express themselves through a number of Paths, so for example being in a '...fill in blank...' Coven wouldnt necessarily make you a Witch?
But a Witch who was practicing Shamanism for example would still be a Witch or Shamanic Witch?
Take me for example, I tend to be drawn most strongly to a Shamanic Path, mainly Celtic / Nordic in nature, I have also studied Druidry and been in an Alexandrian Coven, so other than 'myself' which is the obvious answer, what would I be described as ?
(This could be amusing!)

Errr.. no. Not all Wiccans are Witches. Some are, many arent.


Correct!


Well whatever they chose to call themselves. Most choose to say.. I am a Heathen AND a witch or a Wiccan and a Witch. Shamanisim is a little different, because to me.. shamanisim is very very close to witchcraft, HOWEVER, that could be my lack of knowledge and understanding regarding shamanisim coming in there!



Difficult?

No, Im kidding! I think, it discribes a man who has realised that on his path there are many ways to knowledge. Some speak to you, some dont, you seem to choose to use what speaks and works for you, so I'd say that makes you a pretty smart individual!

Is that as in not everyone who calls themselves a witch...

no... its as in.. not all consider themselves to be one...

Aint life lovely when its awkward!

Thanx Xalle & Moonhunter, I think that helps a lot!
I love your Pratchett Quote about Witches Xalle!
As for 'Difficult', I wouldnt argue with that!
So in answer to is 'Seidr' Witchcraft (or Shamanism) I suspect the answer is yes ...both!

I sit watching you all biting lumps out of each other on this thread and I have come to the conclusion that I shall stay out of it. It looks like no one knows which witch is which.

I think you are over reacting, I think we are debating and I think its really interesting. I dont see anyone taking lumps out of anyone else!

I agree, I think that was a good example of how to hold a polite, un offended debate!
Though the 'which Witch is which' was worth a smile!

lol true!

No expert, but I'd say Seidr is somewhat reminiscent of shamanism. But then, so is certain forms of witchcraft. Yer european witch being the european shamanic tradition, innit.

BB

Mike

I always find it amusing that 'seidr' sounds like 'seizure'

And 'seid' like seidh-folk

Anyhoo:



No you see, to me, witchcraft is the broken remnants of a shamanic culture - it's what's left after 2,000 years of Christian folk and invasions.

No = now

Or possibly Shamanism evolving, I certainly beleive all Pagan / Heathen Religions evolved from Shamanic Roots!

It's pronounced Say-d or say-th

yes, i'd agree with the above (intuitively rather than actually finding evidence and back it up so to speak), i think there is/has been a natural progression from shamanism to witchcraft historically. but I think witchcraft (as understood during the burning times) has been corrupted because of xian interpretation of that time period. I think.

From what I understand generally of that time period, so called witches were those who had knowledge of plants and stuff to heal, were midwives. xianity and to an extent, medicine (as an institution) acted against these old forms of helping by using xian interpretations of the devil and devil worship to undermine and destroy an ancient belief system.

my, that was somewhere near a sensible reply.

fizz