"Saying the "lords prayer" backwards is about effective as saying it forwards. "

PMSL Xalle!

But...maybe that's the whole point... ...and maybe Satan's got to you now... NOOOooooooooooooooooooo.............

Syno

I’m not all that sure what you’re trying to get at. Is it that we should acknowledge the pre-Christian deity that became Satan as we do other gods?

“To be truley pagan one needs to embrace 'Satan’”

This statement I do not agree with for a number of reasons:

- it is too dogmatic for my liking.
- not all Pagans acknowledge gods
-why should the Pagans who do acknowledge gods also acknowledge Satan?
- what is the point of someone embracing a concept if it not relevant them?
- how do you know what Satan is?
- who gave you the authority to dictate what makes a ‘true Pagan’ and what we should believe?

Is it just me or is anyone else wondering if he's actually said anything useful?

Maybe i'm as cantankerous as sin from being sick and feeling rotten but he apparently doesn't have time to explain what he has apparently said on loads of other boards (anyone else here who is a member of only this one pagan board?) but still has time to come on insult, antagonise and patronise.

What results can anyone expect from meditating on that not only backwards, but poorly spelt version of the Lords Prayer?And since when did any deity absolutely need darkness? Its hardly a prerequisite, nice but an absolute to meet something? Ha

As Tas points out how many people here are Neo pagan? Considering he won't add his obviously oh so enlightened opinion to this topic I'm sure that i'll happily survive one being provided. Instead getting some mysterious nonsense.

As for that utter nonsence that CS found? Since when did Kali represent that? She is necessary destruction and recreating, did the person even try to research it or is it stuff they gleaned from that ever accurate source, Indiana Jones? Sounds about right. No rules, wayyy woo we must be 10.

I've found that a people pagan board are not only more open minded, but happy to consider more things. I'm suprised this person being on Sooo many pagan forums while doing all those explanations he spoke of didn't see any evidence of that.

This board is also a haven for people new to paganism, so they don't necessarily have the knowledge to determine bollocks from stuff that could work or make sense

I've never said it backwards actually but I'll agree with Tas? what good would it do, what possible effect could it have outside of what the person's intention pulls it into?

The head is swimming so I'm going to shut up now

Heh, either way its a load of mindless contrary bollox and nowhere near as hedonistically gratifying as this:

http://www.ordo-luciferi.org/O_L_Intro.html

Looks like I opened up a can of worms

And there was me thinking the 'Lords Prayer' was instructions 'on how to pray' rather than a Pray itself! Doh!
Well done Wolverine!

Worms are tasty when cooked with egg, the trick is not to get any ingredients on your face

QUOTE(Synophiucus @ Jun 17 2008, 03:07 PM)

QUOTE(Pomona @ Jun 17 2008, 02:18 PM)

Now, come on Syn, play nice and talk with us, not at us - it's why you're here after all isn't it? 

OK - but let me take a deep breath and compose myself first as this will not be easy for many neo-pagans OR ME - but dont expect me to go into toooooooo much detail as net forums such as this have their limitations and as mentioned above are IMHO more for stimulation rather than deeeep deeeeeeep discussion.

Actually Im sorry Pomona & Ethereal but Ive changed my mind. Considering the dismissive and less than encouraging tone of the last 18 odd posts, I think that my initial suspitions where right and any further discussion on this issue here would be of little benefit to anyone - I will dig out some old posts rewrite them/add to them and then post them in another place in a few weeks time for those who are really interested. I will be happy to share the URL with those who contact me personaly.

Well what did you expect considering your whole tone in all of your posts on this thread? Dismissive from beginning to end without managing to be actually constructive in any way.

You get what your due...

I think thats a real shame and I think you caused the reaction yourself. I for one am very interested, but can not and will not bang my head on a wall begging for answers or discussion. Wolvie raised a very interesting topic, that you chose to enter into by telling us all we were too lazy to look things up.

You should understand the concept of self fulfilling prophecy, which is exactly what you have here. People asked and were interested, you chose to approach with a rather odd attitude. You said people were too lazy, too willing to accept "llywellan" style info on statanisim, you called people "neo-pagans", you then told us that to be true pagans we had to embrace satan and then went on to tell us that really... what we needed to do was say the Lords prayer backwards. NOW you tell us that because we reacted with annoyance to your attitude and quite frankly your inflamitory comments, you were right in thinking that we all along would "grasp the wrong end of the stick" so to speak. You have to take some of the responsibility for that yourself.

How about we draw a line under what has happened and we TRY to discuss this again. How about you tell us a little about Satanisim, where it comes from, what it means to you and how you feel it informs your life and your attitude to life. How about we try and be grown ups about this?

well said Xalle!

Well said

What a wally, here's me sitting waiting for enlightment about the lord's prayer when i could have gone to bed and got warm. Still a week should be plenty enough time for you to do a bit of research then

Well part of my original question was


I can now see why *some* Satanists do.

I was looking for some *impartial* discussion, I got some impartial replies.

So as Xalle has pointed out, how about being more Adult about this thread ?

In his absence, i tried googling Hir but the only thing i came up with that made any sense was the gender neutral pronoun. Anyone know any different or is it that?

Woozle thats why I added Satan after the Hir bit, I got gender neutral stuff too!
But I did find some stuff I posted!

Well if anyone is interested I have found the website of the Lady who provided the Youtube Videos I posted. I have not looked at all of her material, but it will at least provide *some* information.


http://www.spiritualsatanist.com/

It certainly looks a better site than the rubbish I found!

Don't get me wrong - I'm still interested!

However I do rather take exception to my post being referred to as "odd"!

QUOTE(Xalle @ Jun 17 2008, 08:18 PM)

and then went on to tell us that really... what we needed to do was say the Lords prayer backwards.

This is exactly why I refuse to discuss this here now, as people have already started making asumptions as to what is and is not, allowing their own prejudices and fears to dictate their perceptions, without taking the care to follow what has been said WITH MORE care.

I NEVER SAID THAT ONE NEEDED TO SAY THE LORDS PRAYER BACKWARDS - I WAS SIMPLY RESPONDING TO A PERSON WHO HAD ALREADY STATED THEY FELT NO NEED TO SAY THIS PRAYER BACKWARDS, AS IF A SATANIST WOULD DEMAND SUCH A THING FROM THEM..........BECAUSE IT SEEMED UPPERMOST IN THEIR MIND, I THEN SIMPLY SUGGESTED THEY TRY IT ANYWAY.

Anyway nuff is enuff, I have neither been encouraged by peoples initial attitude toward Satanism [which was hardly showing interst and no better than any xian discussing neo-paganism] and am certainly not encouraged by their continued lack of care and reason in trying to discuss this issue - SO NO, IM NOT WILLING TO DISCUSS THIS ANY FURTHER HERE AND I THINK THE NEO-PAGANS [who are NOT Paleo-Pagans] WHO HAVE RESPONDED IN THIS THREAD NEED TO SERIOUSLY ASSESS THEIR OWN PART IN WHY I FEEL THIS WAY INSTEAD OF TRYING TO PASS THE BLAME ONTO ME FOR THEIR OWN LACK OF REASON AND INAPPROPRIATE RESPONSES.

But hey Im just one lone voice against the majority, so I will now leave you all to pat each other on the back and collectively validate each others brave righteous battle aginst the big bad Satanist - Im sure Ive simply confirmed what you NEEDED to have confirmed that Satanism IS NOT FOR YOU - shrug.

Thank you for the Omelette.

Syn, how would you define a "Neo Pagan" please?
I ask because I am genuinely curious.

Oh Synophiucus you old tease ... you made the common rookie mistake: Broadcasting hints at possession of occult knowledge and then failing to back up statement with any explanation.

Syn...



Im quoting that from your own profile. The reason? Well.. people came on here and asked GENUINE questions. People responded with what they either knew or had experiences and quite contrary to your claim in your profile you launched an attack at us and our lack of knowledge.

RATHER than come in and say... "guys you have got this SO wrong, lets see if we can straighten this out" you said, "Sigh.... nopagagans with pixi dust in their eyes". Way to go mate, excellent way to have yourself taken seriously.

And you have the gall to point the finger at me!? Accuse me of being prejudiced, of having fears when it comes to religion and faith. WRONG person to point the finger at. Seriously. There are comments on here, that I personally, think are WAY out of line, people who think that its ok to ridicule, belittle, I dont like that, MY comments were to you, they didnt make fun of your beliefs, they didnt misunderstand your beliefs, they were directed at what I perceived as a bad attitude and I stand by that.

What good does it do to read someones comments that condemn satanisim and rather than actually address it, insult the people concerned and flounce off? HOW does that help? What does that achieve?

So its something you need to repeat, its something you have said before somewhere else. You are new to this site, you havent said it here and people asked a question. GET OVER IT. Join in the discussion and help correct the misconceptions.

Final offer of the olive branch.

Hm, to go back to Wolverine's original question as to why satanists get a shitty deal on pagan forums, the first question is surely, DO they in fact get a shitty deal?

I can't answer this definitively, as I only have experience of one pagan forum - this one.

But from my limited experience I have the impression that it isn't the title you practise under that causes the problems, if problems there be. Come to that, 'satanism' appears, from what people are saying, not to be one thing but something different to every person who cares to define it. So it can't be 'being a satanist' that causes problems for anyone.

What causes the problems, the shitty deals, is simple personality clashes. Anyone can be the sort of person who gets other people's backs up - you don't have to be a satanist or a neo-pagan or any other sort of afficionado to do this.

My Mum's a Quaker and she says they can be as bitchy as anyone. It's not their label that makes them so, but their human condition.

satan seems a bit paranoid to me
i prefer lucifer
the world is his book and easy to read
just make it up as you go along and call the gods whatever you like
they won't listen
unless they want to
cause they don't exist
unless they want to
nor do we

satanists don't get a hard time on pagan forums more than everyone else because people sit and wait for someone to pick at and use all their skills of rhetoric, knowledge of big words or their own personal stupidity to do so
and the nicer ones try and balance it until they all get bored and go away

or someone thinks of something else to get the wocky jabbing at

Exactly what it looks like to me, as the term "satanism" itself comes from a long line of popular misconception. It begins with "shaitan" a jinn who was not impressed with Yahweh's creation of Adam. Then comes the confusion between "Baal Hadad", "Baal Zebul" and "Baal Hammon", to name a few.
These were each head gods of different regions that came to be demonized along with their fertility cults- and gradually replaced with "Yahweh" in the course of conquest. Thus with each revision of the biblical texts, these "demons" in their different aspects were gradually merged into one- while any question of the different names could easily be explained away as part of its deceptive guise.
Thus we have a mixture of the jinn's fire, all the sodomies of the fertility cult, the goat features, serpents eyes, venom spitting, fly plagues and you name it.

As for what falls under the modern misnomer of "satanism", it seems Synophiucus has no less confused the issue. While Baal worship and Luciferianism may have its relevance to the Devil in the Christian mind, they are two entirely different cups of tea to modern worship of Satan the Antichrist. In fact Baal worship is strictly OT as it was with the Kabballah still intact- namely old hermetic mysticism.
Lucifer, on the other hand, seems of most ancient Greek, perhaps even Etruscan origin- once attributed to the bright light of Venus in the skies. In modern times Lucifer the lord of light is iconical of various illuminati groups, as seen in the link of my previous post. It is self-explanatory.

Thank you Quasizoid, I've learned more in those two paragraph than I have in these last three pages.


I think the only way to explain your own 'faith' is to be completely open about how YOU practice it. If Satanism is about pleasing 'the self' and putting your self first do you need somebody elses rules to follow?

Good information there Quas.

I cant help but feel however that we are all groping around in the dark a little, does anyone know a satanist we could ask to come in and give us a "lecture" or discussion on the matter?

Im interested, but for me the internet and books on it are like many of the other ones out there on various religions, useless to those that dont know what they are looking for and which authors and sites/groups to avoid.

Aye, even within these three groups there are so many variations. Rather like looking for a needle in a haystack. Myself, I've had good experiences with two well-seasoned Luciferians in Nova Scotia. It's the novices that tend to get overwrought with their self-esteem.