After looking on some You Tube Videos, this has me intrigued.

Most of what I have seen does not seem to incorporate any malefic practice, so why do they get a shitty deal on Pagan Forums ? (forget the media )

Perhaps they were familiar with the statements and behaviors of "God" in the Torah, Bible, and Koran, and are afraid that they have it bassackwards - that Man was created by Satan???

Depends what kind of Satanists you're talking about.

There's the teen rebellion against authority one where they worship "the Devil" as the anti-Christ and it's pretty obvious why they get a hard time on Pagan forums: their kind of Satanism isn't Pagan. If you take the concept that Pagans don't believe in "the Devil" as it's a Christian construct, then why on earth would a Pagan path be one which looks to Christianity as it's main foundation (albeit flipped around)?

There's another kind of Satanism is the more, um, grown-up one, where "self" is worshipped and obeyed as the ultimate. From what I understand deities are eschewed as being unnecessary: self is all.

And then there's the "Setian" Satanists who see Set as their main deity.

The latter two never seem to be on Pagan forums much from what I've seen, mainly because everything gets bogged down in terminlogy: why call yourselves Satanists if you don't believe in Satan etc.

(I'm sure there are other kinds of Satanists, these are the main ones I've come across and I'm just up and my brain hasn't fully kicked in yetL Damn UKP for being so addictive it's the first thing I check!! )

Does the Red Guy approve of that...?

Personally I don't see the LaVeyan satanists - the ones who worship self - as pagan at all. To me it's really just an extremely selfish form of secular humanism. I don't understand why they feel the need to dress this philosophy up in robes, inverted crucifixes and so-called "black masses". There's no need to insult and pervert the iconography of another faith purely to be offensive to it.

Well said re the insulting part!

Pretty much.
Why define yourself by how you irritate and insult another person's religion while simulatneously cutting and pasteing in another God from a different pantheon and religion to be the figurehead. Then worship him in a way that is nothing like how he was traditionally worshiped. He may be happy to be flexable but at least nod in that direction instead of using him as an excuse to wind people up.

Maybe they are trying to irritate as many people as possible thats why they picked one of the bigger religions and one of the earliest maligned Gods.

I for one, wouldnt class Satanism as a Pagan Tradition, Id class it as a Christian one. I dont beleive in Satan / the Devil / Pure Evil / etc, these are Christian concepts, in my mind.
I cant say Ive met many Satanists, they were all just very young / immature Goth (this isnt a dig at Goths in general, I have several good friends who are Goths)types who were doing the 'look at me' thing, there was no real sustance behind what any of them spoke of, other than trying to shock!

I'm with CornishShaman on this one. It's a Christian Heresy. Why the blue blazes would any Pagan want to recite the Lord's Prayer backwards? And an attention-seeking form of rebellion.

Never come across any Set worshippers who call themselves Satanists. That's new, to me.

Many years back, when I wore a pent, a chap came up to me in the pub and asked if I was "one of these Satinists"...

I told him I was a Velvetist and not to worry, as the two were easily confused.

I believe the official term is "schizoid personality disorder", but then two wrongs don't make a right anyway.

Thanks for your impartial reply Pomona

What I have been looking into is *Theist-Satanism* which gives much food for thought. I'm on the borderline as to whether or not that this could be termed as Paganism.

Here is a Video Clip

This I find rather intriguing.

Cheers.


wolvie

Interesting video. Looking it up Lucifer is a Roman translation of the Greek Phosphoros and the Hebrew Helel, all of which mean "light bringer" - Venus. In the OT it simply refered to the planet Venus and not a deity or being but it seems over time over traditions (Roman and Greek) have been added to it and the Christians confused things even more.

Sorry, but I could not take that video seriously. In fact, I switched off. But I may grit my teeth and go back to it. One should be aware after all.

Ive not looked at the video yet.
I would say in defence of LaVey that he probably used the name Satan to wind up the more evangelical types in the USA. Ive read a couple of his books before and looked at his church of satan website and actually dont find too much of their philosophy disagreeable. The temple of Set, which is a more serious breakaway group from the church of satan seems a little more deeper spiritually but still places an emphasis on responsibility for self and ones actions and as far as im aware do not worship Satan.

First impressions Tas ?

I watched the vid, her pronounciation of Cernunnos, had me confused for a bit!
She is basically correct though, I am a 'Satanist', as in 'I am opposed to Christianity!'
However the 'Witchs Hammer' (she mentioned the books latin name) is a purely Christian book and basically talks a pile of shit (to be blunt), it allowed virtually anyone to be Witch. Especially if they had something you wanted!
'Aradia the Gospel of the Witches' by Leland, I would also classify as shit black magic mainly, with some myths and legends mixed in,plus it isnt that old!
The spell; 'to turn a woman into a dog & bring her to you, then change back into a woman, so you can have your way with her and then return home again as a dog and when she changes back to a woman, have no memory of you having had your wicked way with her', is one that springs to mind, definetly black and pathetic at best!
Witchcraft, however, is far older than Christianity, so it doesnt matter how Christianity defines it, the actual Witches of the time, would not have classified themselves as Satanists!
Yes, the Christian Church, turned the old Gods into Devils and Demons, in the same way they nicked our Festivals and built Churches on our Ancient Sites! In the same way that History is written by the victor, not the loser who often had a different opinion!
Plus she states that the 'Creation of Satan by the Catholic Church', doesnt mean there is an actual being known as Satan, just a Symbol for non Christian Gods.
I beleive that the original depictions of Christ in the Celtic Church also showed him as having Bull Horns, a common Symbol of Power at the time, which latter joined and became the Halo.
So again I say I prefer the term Pagan and really dont give a shit how the Catholics / Christians refer to me!
If thoughts and fear generate power, then the Catholic Church HAS created a being / thought form known as Satan, as they are the ones who spend all their time worrying about him!

I'm a little curious as to why they call themselves Satanists if some of them vehementally deny any connection with Christianity. Why not call themselves Luciferians as some groups do, or Phosphorians (even though that sounds like something from Doctor Who!)

Satan, in the OT, was not the enemy of their god but was on his side - he was the Accuser in the Celestial Court, what we would call the prosecutor I suppose these days. Lucifer (or Helel), as I mentioned above, was the name of Venus.

Well, here goes Wolvie.

Gospel of Aradia? Aye, right.
As for the Malleus Malleficarum, well, the Hammer of the Witches was written BY xians FOR xians. Nuff said on that one, I think. She seems to be unaware of what Witches do and believe as opposed to the modern day practices of followers of the Wiccan Faith.

How do Witches and Wiccans in here feel about her attempts to tie Satan and his worship to that of the Horned God?

She seems genuine, if a tad pedantic, but I'll stick with my first impressioins. No thanks pet.

Did you watch both parts Tas ?

Argh - you mean there's MORE!?

Tas takes a deep breath and heads back into U Tube Land...

"What is more liberating than to mock one's former beliefs?"
My initial response to that was to shake my head - mocking shouldn't be necessary if you really know what you are doing!
Thankfully, this practice is one that seems to be quickly outgrown.

The Dark Archtype I can understand.

The attempts of xianity et al to mould followers into an "ideal" I also understand.

Why call it "Satan" ism though?

All in all, an interesting video. What's your take on it Wolvie?

I hadnt realised there is another vid! Several other vids by Miss Satanus I notice!
Groan!
I suspect she was raised a Strict Catholic and feels the need to do something like this (eg 'mocking her former beliefs' without being struck down by thunderbolts!)
to prove to herself it is OK to not be a Catholic, hopefully she will move on swiftly into something more mature.
Interestingly, when I was raised a Christian Spiritualist I was taught to 'mock the Devil' to disempower it.
She also speaks of the Catholics as simply 'Naming Satan' as a power that is inherrent in Nature. This I totally disagree with, I have never experienced anything that could be classified as Evil within Nature, Neutral at worst.
Humans are the only Species, were something, even resembling Evil could be found.
It is true that we are a part of Nature, but we are not governed by it in the same way all the other species are, we seek to modify it for our own needs.
So I still say this is a lot of nonsense!

I was intrigued Tas. I enjoy looking at other peoples Spiritual Faiths.

As to her mocking one's former beliefs, I'm sure a lot of us (Pagans/Heathens) have done this to some degree & she *did* say to be fair, that it was not a part of her regular practice.

As for the *Aradia* bits from what I could gather, she does not use this material herself but was making reference to Luciferian Wiccans who use this as their source material, she did the same re the Malius (feck it) "Witches Ammer" in respect of that being Xtain source material.

Like I said in a previous post, I'm on the borderline as to whether or not this can be seen as Paganism (she actually does not see herself as Pagan).


Now as to your comment Another thread perhaps?

Thanks for your input


wolvie

Just seen this thread. Watched the vids. Well according to her I reckon most of us on here would be Satanists.

Only met a couple of people who said they were Satanists and to be honest they were not happy go lucky types. In fact they were really morose and boring. It was hell talking to them

Did they in any way seem as being Malefic

POMONA: Thanks for the psychoanalysis!

CS and others above: The myths have the god Jupiter as much bigger and brighter than now. Another god/body "mated" and a comet was "born" of the belly of Jupiter [even though he was a male god]. I think that the passing body separated [via gravitational tidal forces] the gases of Jupiter from its previous solid core. Pulled out of its formal orbit, the molten core/comet wreaked havoc in the Solar System, with a bright comet tail. When the comet had near approaches to some other planets, the tail would be gravitationally drawn to the front in the direction of travel, forming the mythical "horns", then return to the trailing position after passing. Some myths named the comet and the tail as separate superior beings in battle.

As well tevidenced in the Old Testament and elsewhere, Earth twice passed through the tail of this comet (fire, brimstone, liquid sulfur, etc.). The omens, seers, prophets, etc. predicted the end of Earth in fifty years from the second close encounter, with a direct collision.

But - blessedly - the comet had a major encounter with the then-inner planet Mars. As Mars "won" the gravitational battle, Mars became the "top god". Mars was moved to its present outer orbit.

The comet/goddess/Lucifer/Satan of various cultural myths assumed a non-threatening orbit and is now our planet Venus. Native tribes in southern South America and elsewhere still have celebrations every fifty years when it is found that Venus has not left its orbit to bring the end of Earth.

The mythical polytheism and religious tomes of the past 3,600 years are based upon these events in NATURE. As others have said above, nothing "evil" or "Satanic" about it.

OH Dear

As yet I have not watched the vid as mentioned above, but already Im feeling exhausted by the lack of understanding that most neo-pagans have regarding Satanism, simply repeating the same Llewican platitudes that one can find in any off the shelf neo-pagan book written to make neo-paganism appeal to the Xian masses.

Considering how annoyed neo-pagans become when confronted by the usual misinformation and prejudices repeated by Xians about neo-paganism it is realy suprising that neo-pagans themselves are so quick to react so similarly when discusing Satanism. One would assume that having been the butt of Xian ignorance for so long themselves they would be a little more carefull about their own knee jerk conditioned reactionary prejudices - however it seems obvious that Satanism will remain neo-paganism's scapegoat, especialy while neo-pagans continue to clamour for social acceptance.

I myself have argued the Satanic case for years on neo-pagan forums presenting the real facts for neo-pagans to digest, yet I find I am still confronted by exactly the same misinformed prejudices that were repeated years ago. All that trouble I have gone through, to inform people of the facts and the 'hate' mail I have received, just seems to have been for nothing - its now become exhausting beyond belief - and it is becoming increasingly obvious that neo-pagans have no intention of actualy listening to the facts about Satanism or being reasonable about this subject just as most Xians have no intention of listening to the facts about neo-paganism and being reasonable about that subject.

However I will add as a end note before I go to bed that Satanism [a word that was reclaimed from Xians in the 60's, just as Pagan was reclaimed from Xians in the 70's] has a very distinguished pagan heritage and the fact that neo-pagans are so quick to deny this [specificaly to succor acceptance from wider society] only highlights that it is neo-paganism that is itself the Xian hybrid, not Satanism.

To be truley pagan one needs to embrace 'Satan' and see hir for who hir realy is [with the same open mindedness that neo-pagans have given to the horned ones] and not deny hir, for it is only this acceptance of the Satanic presence that will truley liberate one from that ever lurking Judeo-Xian plastique which has been a constant hinderance to real understanding and awakening.

Call Hir (Satan) what you like, at the end of the day it is all Judeo - xian, and cut it how you like, but Paganism in its earliest forms of Animism and Shamanism predate Judeo - xian by thousands of years, Witchcraft in its original sense (Wicca is a modern form) stems from these earliest Religions!
Therefore 'Satan', Hir, God /dess's in general are all new!
In the beginning there was man and woman, they found themselves in Nature, Nature surrounded them and supported them, Nature was all there was! None of this, this is good or this is evil crap, just Nature!
Its Predators preyed on us, as we preyed on their prey, things were resolved quickly and violently in the beginning, then we formed bigger groups for safety and began to think, not about what was good or evil, just about how to survive!
Look at the cave paintings (my Avatar), they dont show Satan! They show what is commonly beleived to be a Shaman!
So, Satan / Hir, is not and has never been a part of Paganism, apart from only within the xian perspective!

As for the first Gods, they were drawn from what we knew, as children our parents provide everything for us 'as if by magic', at least until we are old enough to understand where and how, they get the food and other stuff from!
So the first Goddess was a Mother, our Ancestors saw the life spring from Woman / Female / Mother all around them.
The Father / Male / Man was the next, though I suspect a lot latter, as his role in creation is less obvious! He was probably depicted with Horns, like my Avatar, why? Because he was the Hunter, to get near enough to the prey to kill it with a spear, it helps to camourflage yourself, by wearing a Deer skin.

Well, would you care to share your own understanding of what Satanism is and why it has a pagan background, rather than simply decrying what you perceive to be our lack of understanding?

Erm, I doubt that embracing Satan is going make me truly pagan, when my path has no relevence to that Judeo-Xian plastique whatsoever. All very interesting to visit but I wouldn't want to live there.

QUOTE(CornishShaman @ Jun 17 2008, 01:54 AM)

Call Hir (Satan) what you like, at the end of the day it is all Judeo - xian, and cut it how you like, but Paganism in its earliest forms of Animism and Shamanism predate Judeo - xian by thousands of years, Witchcraft in its original sense (Wicca is a modern form) stems from these earliest Religions!
Therefore 'Satan', Hir, God /dess's in general are all new!
In the beginning there was man and woman, they found themselves in Nature, Nature surrounded them and supported them, Nature was all there was! None of  this, this is good or this is evil crap, just Nature!
Its Predators preyed on us, as we preyed on their prey, things were resolved quickly and violently in the beginning, then we formed bigger groups for safety and began to think, not about what was good or evil, just about how to survive!
Look at the cave paintings (my Avatar), they dont show Satan! They show what is commonly beleived to be a Shaman!
So, Satan / Hir, is not and has never been a part of Paganism, apart from only within the xian perspective! 

OH DEAR, HEAVY SIGH, SHAKES HEAD IN DISBELIEF - it just amazes me that with all the info that is now available at the touch of a keyboard that neo-pagans still prefer to repeat these same old empty fantasies constructed back in the late 70's to 'white-witch/wash' neo-paganism and are completely incapable of recognising Satan for who hir is, stripped of hir Judeo-Xian image. Interestingly neo-pagans are oh so quick to try and strip away the Judeo-Xian veneer that has becone attached to other pagan gods [in some attempt to white-god/wash them] but still refuse to offer Satan the same sort of honour. What is even more worrying is that this self imposed blindness simply highlights how most modern neo-pagans are nothing more than 'Narnians' ie Christians in pagan disguise.

QUOTE(Pomona)

Well, would you care to share your own understanding of what Satanism is and why it has a pagan background, rather than simply decrying what you perceive to be our lack of understanding?

As mentioned above:

QUOTE(Synophiucus)

it is becoming increasingly obvious that neo-pagans have no intention of actualy listening to the facts about Satanism or being reasonable about this subject [prefering that ol and very tired Llewican reply] just as most Xians have no intention of listening to the facts about neo-paganism and being reasonable about that subject.

and at present I just hav'nt got the energy to go through it all over AGAIN, so I just hope that someone will take their que from what i have already said and do a bit of personal study to inform themselves a little more and perhaps deepen their own understanding of neo-paganism, instead of choosing to float around in neo-pagan chiffon with pixie dust in their eyes.

Pity.

On two levels:

1 That the point of the site is to discuss - it's a bit difficult when it's one sided, and

2 By refusing to enter into dialogue and demonstrate your willingness to discuss, you're basically displaying the same closed-minded traits you're dismissing in other pagans...

Now, come on Syn, play nice and talk with us, not at us - it's why you're here after all isn't it?

Having read Leveys Satanic bible I do not see any problems with the ideals behind the practices. Ive even met a few down to earth Satanists with which Ive spent many a pleasant hour discussing their beliefs. It is not personally a Path that I can entirely get my head around, not because of the way its praciced, but because some of the basic concepts are a little too "law of the jungle" for my tastes.

It is a very empowering belief system for those involved in it, but a little too quick to tear into others at times.

I would like to hear your view as Pomona has already said, before launching into another ramble about the Neo-pagan shoot down of it, perhaps you could sit back and consider that most here wont now what you are talking about beyond the detritus found in the media.

Would like to stick an addendum on the end of my last, I have gone away and done a lot of personal study into various beliefs and faith systems, many of which appeal to me greatly but just arent quite me. Satanism was one of these, the concept of God being I, inherent in the self as opposed to an outside entity works for me. I just couldnt quite get my head around the sometimes brutally black and white view of things.

As for the opposition to christianity angle, Satanism from what I have learned does oppose christian viewpoint but not in a combative way. Rather it seeks to make people view the world from a less down trodden perspective, emphasising personal power and progression. Rather than the heirarchical set up of christianity, which places people in positions of status above the self. But what would I know about the topic after all Im one of those fluffy Neo Pagan types right?

Poor you, it must be such a burden. I mean you are quite right, the age of the internet and all that we should be able to just.. flick a switch and gain full understanding, I mean, thats what thousands do every year for wicca, and witchcraft, and the burning times and ooh history in general, the genocide during the war and the Northern Ireland issue and whats actually happenging in afghanistan, I mean you are right, the internet is nothing but accuracy and fact written by those in the know and we, like the many others regarding the above should just, take what we read as truth and not bother you with questions. Because I assume in Satanisim you dont have idiots like Kevin Carlyon and you dont have llywellan book equivalent, everyone who writes about satanisim does so with only truth and full understanding. *nods* sorry... foolish of us to ask a practitioner.

On this issue [and many others] I now often feel it important to get involved only so far as it is important to simply let people know that the usual neo-pagan Llewican reply regarding Satanism and Satan is not sacrosanct, in the hope that this will stimulate someones interest enough to study further - which in my view is often the best way to impart info by encouraging others to seek and study for themselves.



Maybe - however see reply above!



OK - but let me take a deep breath and compose myself first as this will not be easy for many neo-pagans OR ME - but dont expect me to go into toooooooo much detail as net forums such as this have their limitations and as mentioned above are IMHO more for stimulation rather than deeeep deeeeeeep discussion.

Psalm 23 MP3 backwards (link)

Y'know played at full volume, my computer hasn't suffered from a disk meltdown, no spirit forms emerged from the woodword, and I still cannot hear the Skeptic Files's (Crunchy Frog) "I saw a girl with a weasel in her ear".

Disappointed be I

I Googled 'Hir' 'Satan'
I came up with the 'Official FAQ about Satan and Satanism'.
Read that,copied some of it below to enlighten us dumb 'neo pagans':

5. Do Satanists actually worship an evil god?
The term 'worship' is often abused. When this means being required to submit to an external entity, then this is NOT Satanism, whether the classical ruler of the Christian Underworld is the object of adoration or not. This of course doesn't mean that we are *prevented* from submitting to an external (or internal or other) deity. I like to throw myself before the Queen of Demons, personally.

When worshipping begins to mean a steadied focus, a listening and a respect paid to an entity or being, whether internal or external, then this is more like worship with which I'm familiar and is indeed involved in some Satanists' practices.

Take me, for example. I am married to the Goddess of Destruction. I don't feel I have to bend over for Big Honcho Satan, but I have a healthy respect for Hir and think SHe teaches valuable lessons.

Not all Satanism has this religious overtone, however. It is similar to the way in which some Witches simply love 'Nature' and some focus upon a particular god, goddess or pair for their journey. Some of us even (GASP!) change gods/idols as we ourselves change!

6. Then do you *really* serve Satan?
Yes, I choose to serve Satan/Kali/Nature. I have a vow of humility. I am under all things by my own free will. Thus the Temple of Kaos is *Under Satan*.

7. Why do you identify with such a negative force?
I think of myself as a Witch, a Christian AND a Satanist. Am I being self-negating? There are very positive meanings (commonly held! :>) which one may attribute to the terms 'martyr' and 'cult'.

If anything the term 'GMC' (Great Martyrdom Cult ) is overly POSITIVE, not negative. I call the cult GREAT. I mean it in terms of size, history AND value . Does this mean that I judge it 'morally'? Well, I don't think morals (i.e. social evaluatives) are worthwhile except for the establishment of legal structure (admitting the sin - the ignorance - of the natives).

In terms of my own thoughts and values, I will admit that I think the GMC is VERY valuable.

8. Didn't God create Satan?
Well, yes, most intelligent Christians side with the intelligent Jews and Muslims in attributing the CREATION of Satan to God and in this way seeing that SHe is quite perfect. The term 'Satan' is taken from Judaism, where 'Shaitan' is God's Attorney, a sort of 'Bad Cop' to Jehovah's 'Good Cop'. Satan seems to be the representative of the Id, to put it in psychological terms, who challenges us to explore, expand, experience ecstasy, exultation.

Satan isn't 'the Bad' to all Christians. Some see Hir as the essential SYMBOL of our world, as sensuality and its beckoning pleasures. Some see Satan as the Deceiver who lures us, as does Maya, to do that over which we'll suffer.

Does Maya have a personality, traditionally? I think that Sri Ramakrishna and company give Her one. I know that some Christians see Satan as one of the Faces of God, and no more fear Hir than they would a horror-show.

Some see Hir (Satan) as a spoiled brat who disobeys the Good and Worthy God-Parent. However, some see Hir as a Guardian to tremendous Mystery and Wisdom. Some see Hir AS the world. Note how often Satan and the work of this being are associated with 'evil' by fundamentalists and identified with 'the flesh'. Satan has many faces for many people, and I think that this exemplifies some of Hir titles ('the adversary'; 'Father of Lies', etc.).

9. What *is* Satanism? What are its religious rules?
No rules, sorry. We're talking about anarchy, the lack of rulers. If you don't understand this, then you better start reading some Western philosophy and quick.
I espescially liked this bit:

What initiation rituals do you have?

Initiation ordeals which secure membership in TOKUS must pertain to the Four Pillars of the Church of Euthanasia: SODOMY, ABORTION, SUICIDE, and CANNIBALISM. They're shared experience which are unusual and/or challenging, instilling a proper reinforcement of the virtues promoted by the CoE, which we have all previously joined by taking a life-long vow never to reproduce and sending in our attestation to that with a $10 administration fee to The Church of Euthanasia P.O.Box 261 Somerville, MA 02143, USA.

The first ordeal upon which TOKUS was founded was the mindful attendance at the abortion arranged by one of our members. Subsequent ordeals have included being present at the slaughter of a hog in a slaughterhouse (from the gunshot used to deaden the animal to the cleanup of the fountains of blood after the flesh had been sliced apart and set aside after washing).

hope this helps, I may have broken copyright here, not sure! But I was just being antagonistic and anarchistic, so thats ok!

Here is a link to a religious group who live in and around Iraq/Turkey called the Yezidi.

They have been persecuted for their beliefs by the Abrahamics for centuries. They are accused of being Satanists. The parallels are interesting as this faith is far older than the 3 Abrahamic death cults.

There have been atrocities against them recently.

http://www.redicecreations.com/article.php?id=1678

Go on have a go - you might just like it - wait till night fall, light a black candle and burn some appropriate incense, then repeat:

NEMA! LIVEE, MORF SU REVILLED TUB NOISHAYTPMET OOTNI TON SUH DEEL SUS TSHAIGA SAPSERT TAHT YETH. VIGRAWF EU ZA SESAPSERT RUA SUH VIGRAWF DERB ILAID RUA YED SITH SUH VIG NEVEH NI SI ZA THRE NI NUD EEB LIW EYTH MUCK MODNGIK EYTH MAIN EYTH EEB DWOHLAH NEVAH NI TRA CHIOO. RETHARF RUA!

Why is the text reversed from the reversal spelt all wrong?

Go on just repeat it as you see it, just repeat and meditate

Good point Woozle, I wondered whether this might be a reversal of an old english or phonetic spelling, then again it could have just been copied out of The Demonic Bible By Tsirk Susej available on Google eBooks later to be repeated on several YouTube videos

Oh my Gawds and any lurking Demons! I haven't had such a good laugh in here for ages!

Synophiucus - have you ever heard the saying that "the lady doth protest too loud"?

Now, forgive me if I'm wrong here (or consign me to the Seventh Level of Hell, if that's your pleasure) but for someone who is assured of the rightness and validity of their chosen Path, then why, in the name of all that's unholy, do you have such a burning desire to evangelise amongst those sorry Neo-Pagans who refuse to accept or understand your beliefs?


What Christians choose to think (coffs) about Neo-Paganism I neither know nor care. I am niether a Christian OR a Neo-Pagan.

You state that,

"it is important to simply let people know that the usual neo-pagan Llewican reply regarding Satanism and Satan is not sacrosanct, in the hope that this will stimulate someones interest enough to study further - which in my view is often the best way to impart info by encouraging others to seek and study for themselves."

Well, I for one reckon that anyone who takes Llewelyn's pap as sarosanct deserves to remain in whatever fuzzy world they have discovered. Each to their own etcetera. Though, having said that, many people begin with the pap and actually progress under their own steam.

Still, it's a comfort to know that there are still caring and concerned folk like yourself out there, intent on showing them the error of their ways, and giving them a helpful prod in the right (or should that be left?) direction, and all that.

And as for the Lord's Prayer said backwards? I take it that mere details such as syntax and punctuation are optional?

I have a vast range of things i am interested in and satanism is unfortunately not one of them. However i am curious is a distracted sort of way. If you want to be vague and all mysterious (ooooh) about it fine but rather than stimulate people's interest i feel it just seems you are just trying to make us believe that you know something that we don't and are a much much better person for it. They come they go all the time, some stay.
Anyway, i have my own ways to meditate and i use things that have meaning to me. This doesn't. So i reapeat it, then what? is somethig supposed to happen? Ach, there see you've gone and scared me now. I'd better go and change my undies.
My question i think was a polite one. I am much more intersted in language than people just spouting superior knowledge. Is there reason? If you don't know, or are googling it to find out as i write, just say, there is no shame in not knowing.

After you've changed them Woozle, save the contents - perfect incense for the task in hand!

Interesting, its the Lords Prayer as set out by the Holy Catholic church as opposed to the "protestant" church, being as after the words "deliver us from evil" In the protestant version come the words, "for thine is the kingdom the power and the glory for ever and ever amen". Why is that?

As for carrying out your instructions... been there done that, now what? I mean come on, who hasnt done this as a kid? It like standing in front of a mirror and saying "candy man" three times. Been there, done that too... Saying the "lords prayer" backwards is about effective as saying it forwards.

And Im sorry, but just thinking about this... its kinda pathetic is it not? What exactly is the POINT to taking a religions main mantra and repeating it backwards? Its just a way to show that you are not shackled by the perception of the xtain god. So? What purpose does it have?

Good idea. I though those little cones would be nice. I've put them in the oven with the ground ivy to dry nicely.