beyond the individual pursuit and the communal work
what is the role of those who understand and work magick?
is there a purpose you understand and follow?

the true role of Family, Coven, Order

Hmm that's something I have been thinking about recently, and am still not really sure to be honest. I actually think that at the moment my main aim and role is to discover myself and where my place is in Fates plan.

I guess part of my role is to use what I know to help others where possible, generally seems to be healing work that I do.

maybe not what you were quite asking, as it's a rather simplistic answer and also coming from someone who is not part of any Family, Coven, or Order.

By changing ourselves for the better then we change the world for the better. As above so below kinda thing.

We are here to learn lessons, to evolve and to gently guide humainty forward.

Nope, fraid not. I just... am... Its not my place to try and change the world, or people for that matter. If people want to find things out, want to educate themselves want to change "the world" by changing themselves, then Im all for that and perfectly willing to point them in the direction of some books and thinkers. Im prepared to discuss life the universe and everything, offer my opinion etc but no, generally speaking, I dont think there is a purpose.

To work for my family, kin and community to keep them safe and increase our luck by my actions.

There is a purpose to it, to everything, but what that is? No clue as yet. Maybe things will become clear in time who knows. For the most part Im just along for the ride until clarity comes calling.

Awareness, of the self, and of all things.

As a Magician can cause change in comformity with their will I think it is the role of the Magician to try to cause the change that they believe needs to happen whether for themselves and or other people.
The magician has to be the one who accepts the consequences of the changes they cause.
Only experience will allow the said Magician to be able to make the decision to act or not to act in any given situation.

Obviously the major goal of any Magician is to link the energy of the microcosm and macrocosm together within themselves so they become a conduit for this energy to flow hopefully causing positive outcomes for all.

Karmic debts are the way of the magii.

There are times when healing may not be the correct course of action, sometimes an easy passage from this life for the dying is required. Even a Magician must accept the great wheel of life and death.

Funny I was just talking about this today, very syncretic that this post should be here. A magician is a catalyst, they cause "change" in what ever manner they may be, whilst remaining in and of themselves unchanged.

Truth, honour and loyalty of course have their part and should not be ignored, but in reality the practitioner must be with but apart from that which they serve.

Im not in a Coven, etc, I dont really class myself as a Magick user either.
Though like Herne I am a Healer, I generally work towards Balance on this front.
But as Naimh says I am also very much a 'Catalyst', even when I dont want to be!
I work in the Community in my Job, trying to again, find a Balance, between warring Neighbours usually! Its not Magickal, but it does tie into my general theme!
But again I agree with others posts about Self Development, I suspect that this is intensified and accelerated if you are a member of a close working Group of some type, it was when I was last in one!

I follow my instincts.

Of which one should be aware.

I used to think I had a purpose, you know, a cosmic destiny to fulfil. I used to be very frustrated that apparently I was expected to work out for myself what it was, when I hadn't a clue. Now I take the simpler line: there is no purpose but survival of the species, and everything we do is geared towards either that or survival of our own particular section of the species.

But I don't see that we can know what will work in terms of survival strategy. There is just no way for an individual or group to understand all the processes involved. There is a beautiful relentless logic to evolution, and basically we can do what we like and the consequences will be what they will be.

Personally I prefer to take courses of action that I fondly believe will promote good. But I can't tell if they really will. It's like Quasi said - it's all instinct.

Is it possible then that by losing sight of a/the purpose, perhaps once known, the world drifts away from magick and spirit?

What about the Great Work?
What about Guardianship?
Are they now just fantasy?

I serve the gods. But knowing what they want is another matter

Im not sure that they ever were anything but fantasy to be honest.

Eeeep going out on a weee twiggy limb here!!

Its like an annaolgy I've used before, some people are gifted with the gift of music, and can sit down at a piano like Mozart and compose things that make grown men weep. It doesnt mean he has a higher purpose, its just a gift. My magick is a gift, sort of, its just that part of me that always was and always will be and I dont think its any more special than that. I think there is responsibility with it, using it correctly, but I wouldnt HAVE to.. I could run riot with it if I wanted. Hmmmm... not entirely sure Im getting my point across... Im gonna go have a think.

I was told forty years ago that there was a purpose! The 'Guardianship' and 'Great Work' phrases I have picked up since when dealing with trad. witchcraft families and Temple Orders and the work they do. I understand what you are saying though Xalle, feel much the same these days but that's why I posted this. I do know what it means in the case of some we will not see on any forum but wondered how much had been lost in the general dissemination of magickal lore.
Another thought, if you think of magick 'in this realm' as finite (which is another topic but I don't mind if it comes in here), do we have a loss by usage going on that affects the practitioners?
I was taught that magick per se is in fact finite here and needs channels and guardianship through sites and through gateways.

I think we're part of a mosiac and those who work magick are given the task to place pieces and move others around - trusted by something/someone(s) to make the right placings - but for what purpose I don't know. And the burden of moving the pieces falls to the magician/witch - we have to trust so much that we're doing the right thing immediately, and because of that we take on so much responsibility - because we do what needs doing.

As for magick being finite - I'm not sure I agree with that. I think that the more people working with it, the more is generated - which in turn means that there's an added responsibility to make sure it's managed and directed properly.

I dont really know how to respond to that except to say this.

As far as I can work out, magick is as finite as the universe we live in and the energy it and everything in it contains. Magick is the maipulation of energy. So... while, yes there is a finite amount of energy and therefore a finite amount of magick, energy as we know only changes form, it never dissipates, so "finiate amount" is relative. I dont think there would ever be a case of "running out" unless we forget how to do what we do.

As for great works and guardianship. I cant speak of those. I have never been a member of a coven, I've never been taught about guardianship or gates or great works and truthfully, it sounds a lot like men doing what they do through the ages, which is discover they have some ability or gift, be that art, or thinking or something and they wrap it up in mystical blankets, tell themselves its a secret and form themselves into little clubs to "protect" or "serve". Mans need to do this is in my eyes (and please note this is a personal opinion) is seen in all religions all forms of faith and all groups... Leonardo and his lot all sitting in wee rooms patting themselve on their backs and creates things like the priesthood, because thats all this is. Granted its a pagan form of it.. but oooh ooogly boogly.. it (whatever it is) must be protected and we'll call it the great works and we'll pretend we're guarding a gate and we'll call ourselve gate keepers and so on and so forth.

Magick to me is like a sense. I am a man of sight in a blind world, or I am a dog with four legs in a world where most have three. EVERYONE can do magick, anyone can learnt it. Only a few will be competent, very few will be great, we're not special, we just are, just like everyone else.

Just my opinion.

Erm, are we playing on a Masonic rede here or what? The fact is that integrity is in the overall design itself, in which we each already serve our different purposes on a bio-atomic level- whether we realize it or not. Of course the more we realize it, the more we can determine the gravity of our effect- but to assume one can manipulate these things to serve some ideological end, is an accident just waiting to happen. Thus, realizing this, I prefer to leave the matter of judgement up to more bio-atomical distinctions, namely my instincts. They told me of my purpose too some forty years ago, although it was clear from the start- rather the problem started when I found myself surrounded by social peers trying to feed me alot of useless ideological bunk they couldn't even fathom themselves. Needless to say, I've been kicking psychic butt ever since.

Its questions like this that make me glad Im not a Magickian or in some sort of Secret Order!
What Great Work? What Guardianship? What Egos!
I tend to agree with a lot of what Xalle and Quasi are saying!
I trained in Conservation and spent years doing hard, hands on graft to help improve the Environment, that is the closest to Guardianship Ive come, other than the honour I have of looking after the friends and loved ones I share my life with!
The Great Work? That takes care of itself, we play our very small parts when the time comes!
Remember this to put things in perspective, 'If humans die over night, nothing happens, if the Insects die overnight, the world will end!'

Does wanting to determine the nature of what more there is to life and the universe in general and enjoying the process count?

I enjoy doing what I do (most of the time). I enjoy learning stuff and exploring what is out there beyond the mundane.

Yes for me there is a debt owed to the universe for learning and growing. As you build knowledge and guides for want of a better word you owe them for the lessons learnt. As well as a debt to the land. To give something back for what you have gained.

I think the aim of learning and growing is a worthy mission. But I think debt is something that other people force out of you, not something inherent in life or nature. Do cows have a debt to pay for all the grass they eat? We can think in more complex ways than cows, but basically we are doing exactly the same thing - surviving, eating, reproducing, making things good for our kin.

Is a magician making magic somehow of a different order than a politician making laws or a baker making bread, or a couple making babies? I can't see it.

As a fast reply because I've only got a minute or two, I was taught that families of witches had territory they were guardians of, especially the male witch. That territory included a magickal gateway that was kept by the family and was guarded by a spirit they created, by them and by the tribe in the mundane realm that covered the corresponding area. This is almost a 'shamanist' idea. ( a few threads seem to be converging lately, I wonder why?)

Of course the fact that I was told this forty years ago doesn't make it any less fantasy than many other things we hear! However I have seen reflections of this idea, in part, in a few practises in both magical orders (boys own or not) and in traditional witchcraft. I am talking about things I have experienced not just heard of.

Something I wonder is, if this were to be true, have we lost the wholeness of the meaning or purpose in our recreation and relearning of what our ancestors were closer to.

It could be said that today science performs much of the 'magick' for us. Far speaking, far seeing, manipulation of energy etc. But in doing so it uses the energy unwisely and with destruction. I understand well enough that energy in a universal physics understanding only changes state and is not lost, however we live in a finite and limited supply of energy that is bound to a particular form and relevant to the daily world but is not disassociated from magickal energy.

Dammit, sorry to be in a hurry, hope that made sense, if not and if any one responds to this bit I will make clearer explanation of my meaning in a few hours.

oooh SUCH an interesting discussion and Im going on holiday tomorow and am likely to miss much of it!



Right.... to me... and please dont take offense at this because this isnt directed at you but the idea. This to me is a load of bleather. Areas, male witches, territory... it all smacks of men pissing in corners to mark their land. I have never heard of this. No thats not strictly true, I've heard of this, but not "in the real world" only from people who claim to be "families" and to me, its all rubbish. The closest I can come to this is my belief that most villages have/had a witch, or shaman, or something like it. Witches are and were needed and you tended to get one in "an area" to serve "a" community... theres no point in there being a village full of witches, its not needed. So, certainly, witches had areas, but thats because you really didnt wanna walk more than a day or two to get sorted out. So yes, areas... but out of practical necessity. Its like... um.... 1 lion, maaaany zebra. Thats maybe not a good analogy cause someone is BOUND to get their knickers in a twist and say Im trying to say witches are superior, so... eeeeh... one pile of shite... maaany flies, there... covered both ends of the spectrum!

Gateway... to where or what? And if you cant share maybe you could be vague about it... like.... "the afterworld" or something....



Oh I know you do hon, I didnt mean you didnt I was just expressing for othersmy take on it.



I dont quite follow. The universe IS energy, everything is energy, so Im not sure where you see the limit, if you get me. To me the limit is the energy in the universe, I just cant see how we could "run out" so to speak.

Hope that all makes sense!

I too believe we have to have care of the old places.
Enjoy Scotland Xalle - but 'ware the magical midge!

I posted most of this on another forum so please forgive me if you have seen it before, but it saves me typing it all out again ...

The purpose of magic must surely be the same as the purpose of life, which is:


















































































"To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women." --Conan



Only joking. Alternatively, these are the words of Siduri (Goddess of Brewing...) to Gilgamesh, who is spending his life searching for the secret of Immortality after the death of his friend Enkidu:

"Gilgamesh, where are you hurrying to?" she asks.
"You will never find that life for which you are looking. When the gods created man they allotted to him death, but life they retained in their own keeping. As for you, Gilgamesh, fill your belly with good things; day and night, night and day, dance and be merry, feast and rejoice. Let your clothes be fresh, bathe yourself in water, cherish the little child that holds your hand, and make your wife happy in your embrace; for this too is the lot of man."



Siduri Goddess of Beer

IMO Siduri's words seem pretty good. Magic would seem therefore, like everything else over which humans appear to have control, to be a tool for fulfillment of human life's fundamental aims, which I would personally define as pleasure, kindness (love for all), romantic/familial love (for a few) and wisdom. These are the mainsprings of humanity, though they have many forms and some neglect one to favour another. Wisdom does not appear directly in Siduri's instructions, but I see it as a different kind of pleasure (in the whole beauty of life without grasping at anything) and kindness (mainly towards oneself, but also towards the Great Mystery). And then a peaceful ending. Perhaps magic could help us with these things.

There are things I feel fulfilled when doing, like playing music, making instruments, or encouraging other people to be creative, but I wouldn't want to limit myself to a single purpose, especially one that is there just because I am a spiritual (magickal) person, as opposed to some other kind of person. I feel my purpose shifts from second to second, and that if I were awake enough to be aware of these changes then the path would always be clear. Making some bits of wood smaller will be my purpose in a moment... Perhaps a single overarching narrative to my life might become visible at its end, if so then that is something to look forward to.

Let's get things in the right perspective here. No, science does not perform the "magick" for us. Science, like magic, is an idea intent on being applied to a process of realization. Either way that means using your brain, because no matter what the device- unless you know how and where to apply it viably, you're not just wasting energy, but especially time and resources. We are each responsible for our own actions.

Oh hum. I don't have much time until the weekend, but it's an interesting discussion.

For me, 'purpose' etc is part of religion, and something to discuss with my gods.

Magic is a craft or ability. As (IIRC) Xalle has said, it's something one has; it doesn't mean it has any more of a purpose than my skill in putting together IKEA flatpacks. Why am I I better at that then others? It doesn't make me more moral, or ethical, or give me a Higher Purpose. That tends to depend on what I want to do with it, or what I use it for.

Which rather brings me back to my relationship with my gods.