Well no, we work hard to make our lives work and it's best not to pester the Gods un necessarily. Your son was born healthy not because of any Gods getting involved but because it was your Luck to birth a healthy child, his luck to live and the luck of your family to gain a new member. The birth of your son also brought more luck to your family.




Or maybe all of the above can be put down to you finding a way to make sense of the world? It's amazing what a bit of clarity can do. When you understand the 'game' better you can better anticipate it and this can bring courage.




Ultimately Snippety, it's not really a case of having to have a certain set of beliefs in order to be a Heathen. Heathens are just as varied as any other type of Pagan. I've met Vegetarian and Vegan Heathens who consider any kind of bloodletting to be wrong. I've met Heathens that don't believe let alone bother with the Gods. You probably wonder how they can be Heathens, because after all it's all about the Gods right?

No. For people that have a Heathen world view it's all about having Heathen values, a belief in Luck in the Heathen sense of the word, respecting the land, the spirits of the land you're on and working with them. It's about your ancestors and honouring those who have passed. It's about community and building community too.

I know you've mentioned in the past that you are somewhat estranged from your family, well there are two different ways to look at that from a Heathen POV (at least the way I see it!).

If it was your cock up and you'd harmed your family then they commited no foul in walking away from you as families have shared luck and if you'd harmed your family then you harmed their luck and would only drag them down. Heathens shouldn't ever do anything to harm their own family.
If you hadn't harmed your family but cocked up in some other way then your family would have lost luck from not standing by you and trying to get you to sort yourself out.

If you did nothing wrong and were estranged because of whatever reason then they would have lost luck for pretty much the same reasons.

Either way it's a moot point because you have rebuilt and have you're own lovely family unit and that's the family that counts.

Heathenry is not about figuring out what everyone else believes and then dropping in line. Everyone had their own ideas floating around back in pre-Christian times. Hell there were probably so many creation myths floating around depending on region and embellishments through retelling....we just get a peek from the lore and lucky for us that peek involves a cosmic cow!!! I mean how genius can you get?!

Like I said, Heathenry isn't about figuring out what everyone else believes and then dropping in line. Believing in some of those things is a start and then it's more about deciding what type of Heathen you will be.

If you would like to talk more about this kind of stuff, I'd be more than happy to - just drop me a pm or something

rereading the posts it seems that old ways are the best. The old gods and the old ways and that the right way of pagisnism was in the past and the gods have not moved on even a little bit. But in reality times have changed, people have changed but the old gods still know best and demand their sacrifices as always. but then they don't. If it is true that they required serious sacrifice in the past but don't now have they evolved or not? do they in fact evolve?
If the gods demanded sacrific of swords and armour and blood and goats and actual human bodies and stuff which as far as i have read they did, why not now or is it that actually things have evolved just enough to suit modern laws.
I find it all very confusing. It seems a bit like fishing and thowing back the things that don't appeal and popping those that do into the basket for later digestion.
But i repeat, heathenism is a total mystery to me so nobody get offended.

Yes, I think even the back-breaking sacrifices to Thor would have been local to some societies/cultures rather than a universal/national view of Thor. I do think this sort of thing is a human display of power and a bid to control others, with very little to do with the gods.

Another way to put this is to look at Christian beliefs - you have your witch-hating, OT believing fundamentalists and your live-and-let-live types; yet they all assume they believe in the one Jesus and that he would agree with them! People use gods to justify/amplify themelves, whatever culture they spring from. I just know a blood sacrifice isn't something I want to use to emphasise the validity of my own beliefs or to show people how important my gods are....

When society was more rural, addressing a chicken to the gods before you ate it was relevant and showed some respect for both the life of the chicken and the gods and the swing of the seasons. Now it would seem contrived, as you buy your chicken from the butcher, to kill a chicken just for the sake of the gods.

Old Gods do new jobs...well at least for the most part. Some basics of human society have stayed the same.

For all we know their concept of payment may have evolved too which leads nicely to Honeywitches point about going buying a chicken and killing it being contrived.

In a way it would because a chicken or a bull doesn't symbolise the same for us as it did for them. It's not the difference between starvation and life. Sacrificing something that you needed was putting ultimate faith in the Gods to sort it out. The blood was important too but so was the act of absolute trust.

In another way it wouldn't. Have you ever killed anything bigger than a bug? It's not an enjoyable thing to do and it takes conviction to keep yourself steady and not mess it up thus increasing the suffering of the animal. A sacrifice has to cost for it to mean something.

What else would be a modern alternative?

Taking a big wad of cash and burning it? I can't see many folks doing that either.

The good thing about incense and mead and flowers or whatever - while nice gestures, there's no real cost involved. Of course if the mead is homemade then that has a magic of its own, especially if made for the purpose.

That occured in Iceland at the Allthing and happened mostly with people who were judged to be criminals. The Allthing wasn't like the temple at Uppsala where it was pretty much a display for social control, it's pretty much where the idea for parliament came from and law was the most important thing, decided on as a community and enforced as a community.



That's not how I would use it, nor would any of the folks that I know that actually do participate in animal sacrifice. Is it so hard to believe that one could offer an animal to the Gods sincerly and without any aims of emphasising validity of belief or as a form of social control?

If I were to sacrifice anything, not something that I would ever rule out. It would be an act of desperation and it would cost me, just like taking any life would.

Hmm. Cost the animal more though.

To be honest, I do believe that there have been people throughout the ages who absolutely did/do believe in the sanctity of their offering.

My point was more that the people who blood sacrifice originated with are far less likely to have had such pure intentions, but would have been using it as a power grab.

Although I do take the point that societal punishment and justice had a role to play, blood sacrifice in a democratic society seems to me redundant.

But you cannot know that and so at this point it's theory. However if you look at the people that were sacrificed and the circumstances of those sacrifices I would say that it's unlikely. If it was all Kings or tribal leaders being sacrificed then I would agree however that was relatively rare. I'm currently reading about bog bodies and the processes that sacrifice entailed. There was a hell of a lot of care taken over those people in order to ensure them the 'right' death.

Also if you look at early burial customs, it was common for people to not only be buried with their goods but in cases their horses to use in whatever they then believed came after death. Surely if they thought that killing a horse and burying it with its owner enabled the owner to use it in the after then it's not such a leap that in sacrificing an animal or a person to a God or Goddess they were doing it in an attempt to please that deity as opposed to being part of a mad power grab.

Not that I think that didn't happen. Only that when it would have happened surely they would have been shooting themselves in the foot by sacrificing someone they considered to be enemy enough to depose? After all, they would be making them sacred by the act and sending them to their deities...who knows once there the deposed could maybe plead their case to the deity and make an appeal? Surely it would just be simpler to just ambush and kill that person?

Also they would only have gotten away with demanding a chieftain sacrifice if there was a drought/crop failure/something serious and other sacrifices hadn't worked.

Hell of a long way to go about things if you ask me.

Another aspect to consider about sacrifice relates back to a famine in Carthage where the city was faced with starvation and the children and babies were obviously going to be the first ones to die being smaller and weaker. What did people choose to do? As contemporaries related in horror, they had massive child sacrifices. A whole generation was pretty much wiped out. Sounds horrific right? Look at it from another angle, they knew that their children would die anyway from starvation. However in killing them they spared them dying a slow death from hunger and also gave their deaths meaning and honour. In being sacrificed they would forever be remembered by that community as dying an honourable death for their people as opposed to dying of starvation.

That's something that we also forget, sacrifice was also considered an honour (probably not by the person or animal being killed).





Well that's your view honeywitch. But really what is the difference between augering that a serious criminal should have his back broken on a rock in sacrifice and a democratic court deciding that a person should be put to death? I'll tell you. The criminal is made sacred through the sacrifice. Maybe that would be a society's way of putting someone to death who usually didn't cause trouble but for the crimes in that instance had to die?

Els - I'm against the death penalty in civilised democracies, which won't surprise you, but let's not open up that debate here - it's been done to death on other threads.

Some interesting points you made. However, most of your examples seem to be showing established religious or societal ritual. I think I am talking about the original motivation for someone to bring in blood sacrifice into god/goddess worship where it didn't previously exist and before it became the norm. For me, this has to be about power seeking/demonstration. I don't think I'm being too cynical here...

I suppose however, that need could also play a part - the stronger the need the stronger the sacrifice?

You don't think it would have happened out of desperation at a crop failure and trying to appease whatever was unhappy?

I'm sorry but complex political intrigue just doesn't fit with what sacrifice became.

Doesn't have to be complex, could start with one person - eg witchdoctor in the village ruling by fear through poisonings, etc...

But yes, I can see that appeasement is an equally likely start. However, whoever controls the killing process is gaining power for themselves...

Sorry, I'm a cynic!

Setting myself up as devil's advocate here...
In 'primitive' (term of convenience) societies where you hunted for your food and where you fought hacking and slashing battles to protect you family or tribe and you killed daily in order to eat, death was not what it is today. There would, as still happens among the hill farmers here and most of the romanians i know, no concept of killing switftly to prevent the suffering of the animal. It's a very modern concept. The same with the bog bodies, the victims were not spared the pain of death by humane treatment as can be seen from the pathologist's reports. Here animals are referred to as beasts and are not endowed with the modern concept of soul. You cannot even accuse them of cruelty because they simply look at you as if you were weird. There is no concept of that. To me THAT was the past world a place where the value on life was much much less. How is it possible to equate the offering of a bit of mead, even made yourself, to garotting,stabbing and drowing a man in a bog, even a criminal, to appease the gods? If the gods communicate to the modern witch as i keep reading they do, how come all these demands for sacrifice are not completely obvious and unequivocal and the same for everyone? Instead some say blood, some say mead and tattoos, some say incense etc. It all seems a little too convenient to follow a path and say categorically that, what was it,
a gift demands a gift (which is not a gift its an exchange imo) but then to get something important and instead of hacking someone to pieces as a sacrifice (as the god demanded in the past) you go the supermarket and get a bottle of wine drink half and give the rest to the gods.
To me there are just too many interpretations to make any sense.

Yours faithfully

even more confused

However those same reports usually show that the stomach contents of bog bodies contain some kind of psychoactive ingredients that were added to the ritual meal they almost always ate before death. So while death is always painful, they might not have been fully cognisant of what was actually going on until it was too late or they may not have cared as much.





There is evidence to suggest that in some parts of the world, the idea of soul didn't exist as we know it even for humans.




No, you're right. It's still the same in some parts of the world today and I have to admit that after having lived in 2 such cultures and witness animal sacrifice, I have developed a certain hardness to that kind of thing.



that was the question I asked in my first post!! It doesn't even equate!!



Well as others have mentioned, it would depend on the Gods in question. Some Gods and Goddesses are more bloodthirsty than others. Look at the Indian Kali for example.

It would also depend on your personal relationship with the Gods in question. Some people only work with them on a superficial level,some go deeper. I know that both Comfrey and I have pretty deep relationships with our particular deities and believe me, they have ways of making it pretty bloody clear what they want and then really messing with you until you do (funny how all the nasty horrible 'coincidences' just stop when you give in....)

Then I would imagine that some people just aren't prepared to give what may be being demanded and convince themselves that a bit of mead would do.

I also think that it's a lot to do with the old Gods waking up and initially taking what they could get, as Moongazer said - devotion but as they gain power who's to say that won't change and they get more demanding?

There are so many different factors in all of this to really make sense right now. Maybe things will be clearer in a few more years?

So am i right in understanding that it is the working with gods which envolves the sarifice? The deeper you go the more serious the demands?
Because that brings me round to what i said before, but i'll try and be a little cleareer this time - if one witch (banner term) uses god X who is nice and easy going and gets you result B and if another witch uses god Y who demands heavy sacrifices but gets her result B too where is the advantage of not telling god Y to sod off and working with god X? And please don't say that whatever your gods are they are more powerful or powerful in a different way to the other gods because i've heard it all before from others. You and others and myself all say that you are chosen, so why aren't more chosen? It can't be because there aren't many real witches etc around becaus pagans in the past were not witches, most were just people.
How come all the other 99.99% of the poplulation pagans and xians alike aren't having a really hard time because they are ignoring the gods?

I think that this has to do with archetypes and quantum mechanics and the realities that we create for ourselves, Woozle.

A bit like, as a Catholic, to be excommunicated might be rather dreadful - a blight on your life and afterlife, in fact. But as a non-believer, it's just a giggle.

I think that we choose the archetypes we want; again, those fundamentalists versus fluffies to be found in all religions, who appear to part of the same religion but in fact are on quite different paths.

So yes, I think if you "need" a god with a stronger way, that's the one you get. They are all amplifications of ourselves and it is human nature to change the story to suit your own experience. I don't think this is a bad thing, I think evolution of the gods is inherent in evolution of civilisation, and this is how it happens. And I think every human and spiritual experience is valid. Just mine is the most valid for me!

Fluffy and proud of it!

Yes it's working with the Gods that requires sacrifice but only for the bigger requests.

Most things are fine with mead and devotion but if it's life or death then something else is needed.



But that would depend on what result is required and not all Witches 'use' Gods. Some just raise energy from various sources and direct it. You don't need to be any kind of witch to go to a God and pretty much say 'if you give me this, I'll give you......'
Like I said, the price also depends on the result wanted. A gift deserves a gift. The gift given has to be pretty equal to what is being sought.
And to be honest the Witch who uses God Y will get presented with a bill eventually/price deducted. I'd rather stick with my upfront Gods.



And please do not tell me how I can answer your questions, especially in such an impolite way!
You're asking me to share very personal parts of my dealings with the Gods on a public forum. And while you obviously think little of my beliefs, my Gods and my relationship with them, if you are going to ask for that information then kindly have a bit of respect.



*Takes a deep breath*

For the last time, this is not about being a Witch. This is about relationships with Gods which is not limited to Witches. Lots of people have relationships with deities that do not identify as being Witches.

Maybe the chosen are simply the people that have the ears to hear the call?

You say that you yourself are chosen, why do you think that? Why do you think that you yourself are chosen over others? Do you think you had a choice in this choosing? Could you have walked away or would things just have kept bringing you back?

By the way, my post was not meant to imply that Elswyth's beliefs are fundamentalist - the fundamentalist vs fluffy thing was in direct response to Woozle's post about heavy sacrifice versus easy going and to show that in all religions you get polar responses to the same entity.

I never took your post as implying that Honeywitch

While some here may indeed consider me to be a fundamentalist, I think that those who actually know me would laugh their heads off at that. I'm just a girl that believes in not shirking bills (unless it's a council tax bill and I can get away with it).

I won't rule out sacrifice because if that day comes when it is a life and death situation then I probably would.

Well as you are very forthcoming about your beliefs i didn't think there was a problem. As for rudeness, from what pulpit? However my comment was not intended to be rude at all so sorry.
I don't think little of your beliefs or anyone's. I just like to understand and as i see the important questions are often brushed away with trivial (not you specifically) replies i still do not understand. But i am persistent.



Because i know it. simple. Then i was chosen because i am speshul too. I had no choice. Yes i could have walked away but i would have had no convenience to do so.
But then i have no tradition so it's very much a dialogue and then only one deity so i have no possibility to pick and choose and as you pointed out, everything is easy.

I have no problem with discussing my beliefs in public as theories however you are asking me to go into the realms of personal experience.



Your comment did come across as being a little rude to be honest. I'm glad to hear it wasn't meant like that.



I also like to understand things and also suffer from incurable persistancy.

However some things cannot be understood on as deep a level as we would like because of existing beliefs. So while you can understand the concept on a purely superficial level, you won't truly get it deep down and it won't make sense properly for you.

Don't worry, I am the same when it comes to this idea of an all encompassing The Goddess thing.



Or you had the ears to hear.....

But you get the concept of not being able to really walk away.

Something for you to consider. There is no real evidence for worship of a Great Mother Goddess, that is a very much modern concept. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with that at all and it doesn't diminish the power in that because people believe. Now seeing as the Goddess is a modern concept, why would she demand blood? The people that believe in her don't believe in that so why should she?

The older Gods came about in a time when blood was an issue.

Why not dump them and go for the nice bloodless deity?

Because some Gods speak to some but not others and some Gods are bloody loud about it too.

I agree with you, Els, on the fact that the old gods appear to be 'waking up', which brings back the old question of if more people believe, do they gain in strength, which implies a very reciprocal relationship, which raises other points to debate - lol.

What you said about your relationship with your gods being deep, and referring back to my comment about things being stripped away - sometimes they strip away to get you pay to attention when the knocks and bumps dont work

And what I meant by devotion, wasnt just about setting up an alter and doing observances, altho that is a part, it is only a small part of what I meant by devotion. Devotion in as much as you take the time and effort to listen to and to understand your deity, because alot of what is written in 'popular' literature, for instance, may well have become distorted over time. Also acknowledging that deities influence in your life in general, not just for the big stuff.

Why are people chosen ?? I have no idea, because until my deity literally whispered in my ear, I thought people who said they communicated with gods were delusional, and to me there were no 'gods' just a universal energy that was both male and female, but also neither. Very Zen, I am told - lol. But a brush with deity shakes you up in lots of ways.

I think it might be nice to have a kindly deity who demands nothing. But I wouldnt swap my deity, I am quite devoted to her, you see

I think those gods who demanded or required blood/animal/human sacrifice at the times when they were strong are the ones who probably demand the greatest sacrifice still today - but relative, if you see what I mean, to what would constitute the greatest sacrifice to you.

But it also brings to mind the question - is that what the gods really wanted in the first place ? Or was that just the human interpretation of what was required which then became tradition and written into the histories?

But I very much get the point that what is offered now, is paltry compared to what was offered. But we live different lives now, and I think it depends on who the deity is and what is being asked for - or demanded.

I suspect Animal Sacrifice began with Hunting!

Thanks for your thoughts Elswyth

I'm really enjoying the different debates on this forum and seeing w hat others think. it doesn't affect my beliefs but I think it does affect where I place myself in the wider Pagan community. I am wary of calling myself a Heathen, or Asatru for example, because some of my beliefs and perceptions seem to fall outside their canon as it were, and I'm wary of stepping on other people's toes, or claiming to be something I'm not. I guess that's another thread though

I'm off to do a bit of re-reading with this thread in mind.

I'm curious, how do you feel that some of your beliefs fall outside of the canon of Heathenry?

I've a Question here.
What about Semen as a form of Payment?
I've never expermented with sex magic. However if the Gods demand payment then as a Man its much easier and more fun to crack one off.

Yes and how about menstrual blood???

Is an offering somehow less valuable if it´s painless?

Well, please bear in mind that until joining here I'd never spoken to other Heathens and had only what I'd read in books and online to go on.....

My spiritual experience seems to be quite subtle, intellectual and esoteric for want of better words. I've always felt an affinity with the Norse Gods from a very early age (9 or so), and have read the Sagas and Eddas and numerous books of mythology and history throughout my life. At some point all this began to kind of curdle (again probably not the right word) into something more. Something "other" and I began to explore Paganism & Heathenism and Asatru properly about 6 years ago.

It's more about things I have difficulty accepting. The main bits that I've read about Heathenism and Asatru which didn't seem to fit in with my experience are the very direct nature of relationships with the Gods/Wights, the gathering into Kindreds, the importance of alcohol, Ragnarok, the importance of ancestors, and leaving food/drink sacrifices. I am also sceptical of the value of trying to recreate ancient paths outright as I feel that both human society and the Gods have evolved and morphed into something so different that we can never really recapture that experience.

On the other hand some of the other aspects like the Nine Virtues, Disir, and Rune study/meditation have seemed so right that I have not really been willing to seek another path. So I feel neither one thing nor the other, and end up describing myself as a Norse Tradition Pagan. Sometimes I despise this vagueness in myself as I am someone who likes to know where they're going and have definite boundaries

Now, since joining this forum I have learnt, mainly from yourself and Wulfric, that not all I have read is true. There are solitary Heathens. There are those who don't use alcohol. There are those who don't believe in Ragnarok. There are also concepts out there that I'd never even considered - like atheist Pagans. Yet still most folks seem to be practising magic, or experiencing something more concrete than I. Sometimes I feel that I have more in common with other religious faiths that have a deity and a moral code, than with other Pagans

To be honest my faith is going through a bit of a state of flux at the moment. At times it feels like I'm trying to cram my spirituality into too small a box by treading the Norse path, but then I sometimes think that my rational mind is setting false parameters where there are none. I have turned away before in my life and always been brought back somehow. I would welcome any thoughts you or other Heathens may have.

Sorry if this is badly expressed and somewhat fluffy

My own take is that there is always a price to pay, regardless of how small or how large that payment may be. However I do wonder if that payment is different for different people. - not everyone can offer the same things and although the heathen gods can be bloody-minded, obfuscating (in some cases), awkward bastards at times I don't think that they are always unreasonable. I also sometimes wonder if that payment is necessarily always a physical offering.

Snippety: I suspect that not all of our ancestors had direct relationships with the gods or the wights either, some people do and some don't or don't see the need. True the term Heathenry is a box but it's a rather large one in which no two heathens agree on everything and all sorts of beliefs mingle.