Love, money, sex, protection, fertility, shelter, knowledge, victory, bountiful crops...

These are all things that people ask for from the Gods/wights/ancestors (if of course you subscribe to those things).

These aren't small things either.

There was a time when most of those things were payable in blood. Mostly animal, sometimes human.

Nowadays what do we give in payment? A bit of incense? Some wine? Some mead? A couple of drops of our blood? Flowers?

What does any of the above actually cost us?

Northern Lore states that a 'gift deserves a gift' but are we giving the Gods crappy gifts?

Just think, some Gods have gone from mass sacrifices at key points of the year, bog bodies, silver items, beautiful decorative swords tossed into bogs to shop bought mead and cake for essentially the same requests.

The Gods are on their way back from a long time lying dormant. Maybe this is fine for them for now, but as more hear their call maybe the demands will increase?

Do we forget the true nature of Gods and the true cost of things prefering instead to think of our Gods as being somehow benevolent in a way that the cultures that originated them somehow couldn't understand?

How much would any of us be prepared to sacrifice for something we want or need? How much would that sacrifice actually mean to a deity that was originally paid in blood?

Over to you guys...

There are a lot of ways to look at what you ask and many more questions to answer in response to it!
Did the Gods create us or did we create them?
Ive heard it said that threatening a God to do something for you is the best action to take, eg 'Grant me this or I wont worship you anymore!'.
This would be a valid threat, if we created them! Reminds me of the recent 'Merlin' TV show a bit.
If however they created us, which is the most common idea, then is it a lot to ask?
Are our Gods that weak that they couldnt supply the basics of Human Need? If that is the case, are they worthy of Worship?
Ive also heard it said, especially of the Northern Pantheon, that many Gods are Deified Ancestors, in a similiar fashion to King Arthur and Merlin or Ghengis Khan.
Personally, I dont ask the Gods for much. Why? Beause I prefer to beleive its something I have acheived myself, rather than having to be grateful / endebted to a God or Goddess.
But the main gift I would think that we offer to the Gods, is ourselves, its not the offerings we make to them, they are just Symbols of our Devotion.
In the past the huge amounts of Blood Sacrifices, Uppsala for example, were also serving a very practical and in some ways self serving Offerings.
The people who were hung, etc were Criminals or Prisoners of War, it saved a lot of Resources to simply Hang them, rather than feed them, guard them, cloth them etc.
I beleive in China, people are still exacuated for types of crime, this costs them about $18, including the 18p for the Bullet. Compare that to the cost of one of our Life Sentence Prisoners!

Weeellll.... I dont offer gifts to the gods, being as I dont have any. So I dont really have to thank anyone for anything.

However. I try to balance things in my own way. For example I donate money to "buy a tree" campaigns, I pick up litter when Im out, Im a member of the World Wildlife Fund for Nature, I do as much re-cycling as I can, I try to be mindful of the planet, of the energies around me. If I take somethign from a tree.. I give the tree and offering.. I do what I can, when I can. Tis the best I can do.

Yup, those types of crimes include protesting against the regime, having more than one child, stealing handbags. Three hundred and fifty people a month executed for 'types of crimes' I guess it's one way of keeping the population down.

Back to the OP question though!

I know people who make sacrifice to their Gods of things that do hurt to give, a whole bottle of whisky or champagne. Blood is still popular but in this day and age it's as easy to get it from a butcher rather than risking upsetting PETA.

There are other forms of sacrifice too - volunteering, sacrificing time, in order to give something back to the world.

Rhiannon

I find the idea of Gods demanding anything most bizzare. But each to his own i suppose.



That struck a chord. Though it may be a bit sissy in comparison to what little i understand of the Heathen (?) view of the Gods, I have always thought that the Goddess, for it is She, has looked after me. I have had a charmed life so far (sproosh, as the lightening falls). I very rarely 'ask' for anything except for others (very noble of me ). I have a very good relationship with my deity. Things go wrong, things go right, but on the whole i get the distinct feeling that She nurtures and always has done. Why this should be i don't know and i don't ask but i have my ideas. I could not conceive of having to pay her for anything. If she calls me to do, then i answer and do, other than that i feel it's a bit like mother and child. I would feel that i was offending her if i offered payment. I give offerings, like giving a pressy to the my mother but there it ends. Love is the only price i think.
If i felt i had to pay back the gods for their protection/services i would not be a pagan for the reason CS said above..

Well, I tend to try and match what I'm asking for with payment in terms of time, money, work, and yes, sometimes my blood. Sometimes the required payment will be indicated at the time of seeking assistance, other times I'll be doing something and I'll get a nudge "THAT'S what I'd like!"

I know that technically the word sacrifice means to make something holy, but I've always used the interpretation that it's to surrender something of value to me. Which might be going without something, or in one case offering up my skin to be tattooed and therefore marked for life as having been required to do so.

Yes, sometimes I've had the "is this it?", and I've made adjustments to whatever I was offering, but I guess the point is to listen to what you're being asked for - whether that's in response to your "if you do this, I will do x" or "thanks very much - what would you like?"!

All humans have is time and energy, so I guess thats all we can give, though we can choose different forms.

Whether the 'Gods' need or want our offerings is a matter of opinion.

IMO the more remote and natural forces, like the Wind say, or the Night, and their personifications, have no need of our offerings. They are constantly worshipped by all living things. I'm sure the Owl gives silent thanks to the night as he hunts... On the other hand more culturally specific deities, like Odin say, or Teutates, were created (perhaps I should say 'brought into focus') by the thoughts of people, and although they may incorporate or be ensouled by natural forces, that particular identity is in need of human relationship to be maintained. Gift giving would be an aspect of that relationship.

Just my opinion mind. Hard facts about Gods being difficult to come by...

Good (and important) question Elswyth.

Oh, and nice to meet you all!

Time & effort, the most precious things we have.

I agree with this. I don't make sacrifices as such. I maintain my altar and keep fresh flowers there. I put out appropriate Runes and crystals at festival times. I make offerings of music or meditation.

I guess I see it more as acknowledgment and communication. When I bless our food as I prepare our evening meal I don't feel like I'm asking for something, rather acknowledging something already freely given to my family. When I say my morning blessing (I use the one from "The Troth") I feel like I'm dedicating myself for the day as much as asking for protection and luck. I honour the Gods by living honourably. I try to stick by the 9 Virtues, and I specifically gave up alcohol and cigarettes 5 years ago as part of taking up my path and expressing my faith in my life. I devote a lot of time to reading relevant material and studying the Runes in order to learn more about the nature of the Gods and feel that this in particular is appreciated and rewarded. I suppose my body art is kind of an offering, but done for other reasons as well. I don't find the idea of reconstructing such ancient practices all that helpful. I believe we are different now and the Gods are different too. IMO we can't really know the meaning of sacrifice in those times, nor recreate it now.

As Gawain says - walking the walk.

Good topic Els! You are absolutely right, there is always a price to pay for using magick. I do make offerings, and have on occasion had other things demanded of me. My backpiece tattoo for one. It is bigger and more complex than I originally had in mind, but the basic design came to me in a dream, and I worked with the tattooist, an Art graduate, for several weeks until her sketches matched the image I'd been shown. It was then done over 6 hours, in three sessions, and since I was out of work at the time represented a substantial financial sacrifice as well.

You have to try to give back something for what you have been given, whether this is working in some way for the environment or for those around you. The woods near me have some truly ancient trees, and the energies are sometimes disturbed. I take along a couple of carrier bags in my pocket, and pick up the cans, bottles and whatever rubbish is around. Then I sit quietly and 'feed' loving energy back into the trees. Friends of mine often do their workings in local forestry land, they've been going for several years and have a good relationship with both the trees and the warden. Local chavs have several times tried to start fires there, and they did one working to discourage this. Which apparently worked so well, the smokers among them found it difficult to light their fags after the ritual!

But I think that the price we pay is sometimes hidden. If whatever we have given is deemed insufficient, then I believe the cost may be extracted in some other way. When you dedicate your life to the gods, you are offering yourself as a potential sacrifice. The story of the witches who took part in the Magical Battle of Britain during the Second World War is a well known though often disputed example of this. Be that as it may, initiation ceremonies or self-dedication ceremonies imply that you are agreeing to work their will to the best of your ability, and to willingly give whatever they may ask of you. Our ancestors understood that this meant that your life belonged henceforth to them, and that if they chose to demand it of you, then so be it.

It is unclear to me whether we are talking Gods or magick. If magick then i agree there is a price. Gods No. Or do you(pl) see it as the same thing?

Both, I suppose. In magic, the price is more about maintaining a balance, a giving back of something in return; but also taking responsibility for ones actions. This applies in whatever you do and magic is no exception. But since when I do work magic it is within the context of my faith which does include Gods, its hard for me to separate the two. I do accept though that this isn't the case for everyone. Hope that helps .

One way is not to grow up. Go for what you want and get it, put your truest will behind it, disregarding conscience and all that stuff. Then keep your eyes open and watch.

The balance works anyway. You might learn a lesson about yourself, ie 'woops shouldn't have done that' or conversely, 'blimey that was easy' but it is more about flowing along than about working it all out before hand cos there is usually something you missed. As Tas said elsewhere, awareness, but I would add, awareness needs little thought..

Try and avoid all payment ideas as that constrains you and don't be moral, that makes you something you rarely are. When you are 'dedicated' as a witch you just do it without thinking, both sides of the coin. The dedication is the payment, it is all of you.

Do you not think that this is a particularly modern idea about Gods though? About getting things for free because they 'want to help us' and that we're their children or whatever other reasons are flying around out there.

I am yet to find a Pagan culture in which people thought that the Gods would give them freebies. There is always a price and depending on the ask depends on how big the price is.

It's not a case of them being too weak to provide for human need, it's a case of our expectations of Pagan Gods being too coloured by other religions.

Way back when in the conversion period, that argument was used a fair bit and for people who would quite happily 'drop' a deity if they didn't answer their needs that was a really good argument. Unfortunately the deity they were dropping for on that occasion was not only a liar but a jealous one at that and so they ended up stuck.

I am not particularly talking about magic here. That is a separate issue and can be done without a deity going anywhere near it. I am talking about the times when you're desperate (unless you're a bona fide godsbotherer) and you need that extra help because as much as we sometimes like to pretend otherwise, we do have our limits.

That is for me the key issue - why SHOULD I expect to receive help and not pay anything in return? It's an age-old "done thing" - someone does something nice for you, gives you something, you try and repay the favour. It's not that different with gods.

Im not saying the Gods dont deserve a 'reward' or more accuratly a 'thank you' for their help.
I think that is true and comon courtesy, but I also think that is an entirely Human angle!
Gods are not Human! They may present themselves in a recognisable Human Aspect, so we know who we are dealing with, or more likely the type of Energy Manifestation we are dealing with.
But they are generally not Human.
So assuming God and Goddesses are Omnipotent Beings, how do we give them something?
They already are Everything! Probably works better if I say 'It', rather than They!
No, this isnt some left over Xian twot, the Single Being scenario, has always just made the most sense to me. But it would be like a Yin / Yang Symbol, eg 2 seperate Energies entwined; another way to consider it might be the God and Goddess entwined in Passion, the act of Creation.
A bit like me saying 'thanks for doing a good job CS' to myself and rewarding myself by keeping one of my own fingers!
BUT, we are Human, as such we try to understand and respond in our Human Nature.
So the giving of Gifts, especially to Loved ones, which lets face it, is what the Gods and Goddesses are to us, is totally natural.
Personally Ive always felt, they use us for their purposes and take what they need from us anyway. But they are entitled too, after all they gave us Life and all the things we will ever need in the form of the Earth.
Which is a Gift I truly value and that is why I devoted about 5 years of my Life to looking after the Environment, free of charge! As well as all the lesser little things I do to show my appreciation!

Perhaps it depends on conviction and how you find your god/ess. I have no doubts about mine which makes debate difficult. I didn't go searching to choose a God i liked and a religious form that sat well with me. I didn't read up on the Goddess or even try to find a name for her. It just happened so therefore i don't know if she sits within a demanding tradition or not. Apparently not though. I personally don't think that what happened historically has much relevance. Were the Gods more real in the past than they are today? If you (impersonal) had not read up about nordic gods (for example) demanding stuff would they still be demanding or do they become demanding because you are told they are rather than you experienceing them... or summat?
As i said i tend not to ask for anything for me. If i do it will be important and so far, it has always been granted. I'm sure if She wanted something in return i'd know about it soon enough.
I agree with how Pomona expressed it. If she does do something for me, and she does, I am eternally grateful and express my gratitude in many ways, usually daily.
Sometimes i do magic with the Goddess and sometimes without. Magick without i usually have to pay for.

Aye, but...

I think that the gods know that WE are human, and they deal with us as such - and that they recognise that although they are indeed "more" and don't actually need what we give them, I believe that it pleases them to be appreciated and that they understand the human need/etiquette to pay for goods/services.

I just think that the terms of the bargain have changed. Here in Western society the things mentioned in the OP are pretty much taken for granted. If for some reason I found myself destitute I would apply to the secular authorities for help, rather then my Gods.

In some ways it would be more of a cop out for me to go to a butcher's and buy blood to sacrifice, or even cut my finger a little, than to give up the precious hours of time I have when my boy is asleep to Rune study and meditation rather than resting, or getting the veg peeled or the washing done. It would be easier to make such sacrifices in private rather than live by my beliefs openly which sometimes sets me apart in society. It's just not the relationship I have with the Gods as I encounter them.

Excellent topic, Elswyth.

I think there are a few things to consider here. One is that our culture has significantly moved on from the days when people needed to appease the gods, and while I can perfectly understand their need to, our understanding and experience of the world is far less brutal, and more sophisticated.

But I also think it depends VERY much on the deity you have the interaction with. And in my experience, they do make you work for what you want, they are not above stripping you of things so you sit up and take notice. So is that sacrifice ? its certainly taken something from you.

But also I feel that seeing as we live in such a 'one god' world - and the pagan gods (if thats how we need to define them - I would argue that they were all there at the beginning, same as the abrahamic god, and he just got popular by accident or clever conniving, depending on your point of view) are very much in the minority in terms of devotees, and that what they seem to 'respond' best to is devotion to be recognised.

How you interpet that devotion (as opposed to worship) is down to you and your own values and expectations as a human, and the nature of your deity and your interaction with them. Therefore the sacrifice might not actually be needed, but you and they might prefer it. But I get what you mean about the offerings of today being a bit on the pathetic side, but then, again in my experience, the gods will take what they feel is due recompense anyway, whether we want them to or not.

I also think that your deity knows your intent, and if its genuine, and honourable they will assist, if not, they'll kick your butt no matter what you offer them.

Just my thoughts

See this is interesting because people have so many different views and for myself I feel the opposite of this is true .......... or nearly.

It really depends on how you do a working.

Most of my magic is energy work and it is raised externally and then used for whatever purpose. Spellwork can be a part of this and so long as this is executed well, there should be no come back.

Any atheist witch would say the same I believe

The Gods on the other hand are not the benevolent Gods of Christian belief and I think this is a mistake people make because we are attuned to believe this this "God is good" phenomena almost from birth because of the society in which we live

But mythology reminds us that the Gods are often vain and selfish and will many times demand a price. Not because they need to, but because they feel that it is owed.

Very much a "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" type thing.

For myself the biggest sacrifice (or punishment really) I paid, was when I refused to acknowledge a specific deity and was really made to pay the price for my (what can only be called) insubordination.

Els .......... good to see you darling

Yery Good Question Elswyth. My own thoughts on the matter.
Some Gods demand a gift or sacrifie of sorts-Ive worked with the Goetia and Yes they they expect some kind of payment, the type of Payment for the Goetia is someting personal or something of value-getting yourself tattoed is a excellent appeasment*. (Maybe thats where some of the Negative attitude towards the Goetia comes from?)
Iv'e also done some Working with the Enochian Aythers. More Magic than Godwork-The Aythers will change you as a person, they make you see things diffrently they literaly rewire your brain. I suppose the price i paid for this was that i was no longer able to see things in the "old" way once I have done the Workings. So i guess the price I willingy paid was a change in myself.
As far as Fetches/Servitors/Egregores go, then I find they need to be paid for with energy-Makes sense I suppose as Ive drawn the engery to create the servitor from myself. After doing a servitor working I feel quite drained.
This is all from personal experince feel free to disgree or post your own experinces.

*If its not given then the Goetia have a habbit of first reminding and then taking the payment.

I'm curious to know what kind of payment the gods ask you all to make and why you think (if you think) only some gods ask this and others don't.
As an after thought, no dig intended, but re tattoos, could it not be that one wants a tattoo and gets one under the pretext of thanking the Gods? Just a thought.

I was having one of my "moments" a few years back and decided that she who must be obeyed, would appreciate a tat.

So off I went and had her likeness (as I saw it) inked on the top of my arm.

Trouble is it's dark and scarey, and disgusted as I am to admit it, people either think its my girlfriend or assume its a rather lousy portrait of myself

Needless to say I spend most of the summer months trying to cover up the damn thing.

So she had the last laugh, I reckon

As I've said I think my payment comes in the form of time, effort, energy and acknowledgement. For example I show my devotion to Thor by openly wearing a Thorshammer which in turn gives me protection, but might also carry the risk of persecution or at least misunderstanding. If I choose not to wear it, then that protection will cease. I've never felt that the Gods want blood, or an animal sacrifice any more than they want a ham sandwich or a handbag.

For me it has to do with right living and acknowledging the gifts I'm given. That said I don't do any magic and I don't really ever ask the Gods for anything above and beyond what I have. I believe very strongly in the virtues of self-discipline, self reliance, industriousness and perseverance and feel that this extends to my relationship with the Gods. If I want something I'll get it myself. If I can't then maybe it's better I don't get it

Edited for crap grammar

Aye, could well be. Could also be that they "implant" the desire to have the tattoo done - who's to say what is personal desire and what is the gods'?

ELSWYTH: Fandamntastic question!!!

Interesting topic - and I think very revealing of contrasting attitudes to the Divine!
While on the topic has anyone read the latest edition of the Pomegranate - which features an article by Michael Strmiska entitled "Putting the Blood back into Blot" (Abstract - Animal sacrifice, once among the most universal of religious practices, is now among the most reviled and rejected. This article explores how a small number of Modern Nordic Pagans in the United States are experimenting with recreating the practice of animal sacrifice as part of their project of revitalizing past tradition).
Having read it in an open minded (and occaisonally meat-eating) kind of way - it did cement my attitudes very firmly against this kind of behaviour. Theologically I think that there is far more justification for "giving of ourselves" to thank the gods -through work for others, through efforts to make the world more of the place that we want it to be, and through being (however we may perceive it) "Good people".
Any damn fool can pour out a bottle of mead, and think it a suitable sacrifice - but giving up our own time and energy cuts much deeper (and how many in our community just can't manage to do that so often?)

The Blot Book of The Troth contains an interesting article on Sacrifice.

It suggests that the object of Heathen sacrifice is not self denial or as a gift to the God/esses but to make the object/animal/food/drink sacrificed sacred to them.

Which makes sense to me, I cannot think of an Heathen blot I have attended where the folks present didn't share the 'sacrifice'. Which is hardly self denial and if the 'sacrifice' was intended as a gift to the God/esses wouldn't partaking of it be stealing from them.

Although not common today, animal sacrifice is a valid part of Heathen practice. When practised, the beast is not just some cheap piglet, lamb or bunny picked up from a local farmer or pet shop but from the start it is treated with reverence and respect and leads a petted pampered life, [think Gordon Ramseys piglets] and is killed quickly and without stress by a qualified person. Any other treatment would be abhorrent to Gods and Man.

Of course there is an easy way for Valley residents to make a sacrifice. Just go HERE !! and make some of your money sacred to the God/esses.


dav

edited to add

as elswyth has said a gift demands a gift .... be careful what you 'give' to the gods, you may not get quite what you expect in return

Well said Dav!

It's interesting how today we take "sacrifice" to mean to surrender something of value when in fact the word itself means "to make sacred".

Hello Cornish Shaman,

It's not a human angle. It's based on reading the lore about my Gods and years of building good relations with them. The Northern Gods have very human characteristics and like us, they also have their limitations. From our background where we're raised to think of a God as being automatically omnipotent or just crap - this could be a shock however I like my Gods as they are, regardless of any lack of omnipotence.

Not all Gods are omnipotent. All the Gods I can think of right now from pre_Christian europe have their limitations in what they can do. There's only one God I know of that claims omnipotence and most of us don't bother with him any more.



Hello Moongazer.

I agree totally, it does very much depend on the Gods in question. Some are more exacting than others like the Aztec or Slavic deities for example!

I suppose that the stripping things from you thing would kind of like be like deity debt collection LOL.



Ahhh but will that always be the case? More and more people are being called back to the old Gods. When will devotion stop being enough?



Hey there!! o_kiss.gif



Hello Woozle,

My Gods have asked me to make all kinds of payments before now. Usually some mead will do but if I am asking for more then usually blood is required.

Funny story here. Everyone associates Odin with human sacrifice, usually by strangulation, hanging or by the infamous blood eagle (which is still disputed) however I always found Thor to be quite exacting in the blood department too, even in spite of the impression that most folks have of Thor being a 'jolly good fellow', the God of the common man. So I looked into it, did some more research and found that Thor was originally one of the Gods that demanded sacrifice (usually in the form of backbreaking on a rock).

As for why some demand blood and others don't - I have no idea but the ones that do certainly have their ways to make their needs known.



Well I did want a tattoo but not of a hammer on my leg. I wanted a tree on my back to represent Yggdrasil. I also really didn't want a tattoo in that position but I sort of didn't really have any leeway on it.

This is one of the best threads i've read for a while
While the discussion rages about what constitutes payment and what kind of payments are required. It also throws up the question of What is effective or Who is Effective.

Payment is a mortal conciet, Yet the Gods seem to respond to it. I'm mulling over the point about Is a God worthy of worship if they dont respond/reward? It also leads onto the question Why does it seem easier to belive in "negative" Gods (Devil/lucifer/Loki/Hades etc) Why do these Gods seem to have so much power?


(sorry if this seems rambling i'm really tired)

It's not that they have more power, it's just that they give more to suck you in, make you think you're the one in control and then take payment.

I'm finding this really interesting too. I just don't see my Gods in this light; as granting and giving stuff or needing material things. I always felt that it was more like when going through good times and bad times, my life was just better for the Gods being there. They share the celebration or help shoulder the burden but in an emotional or intellectual sense rather than a practical way. So a meditation might bring forth a new idea or approach to a problem, but I wouldn't consider asking for material things, or to change the course of life.

I believe it's good to acknowledge that with loyalty and right living. Much as you do close mortal friends. Aren't the Gods at the mercy of Wyrd as much as the rest of us ? I've never done magic, and depending on the Gods for happiness or wealth or whatever seems to much like the Jewish or Xtian idea; unless you worship me I'll punish you etc. Or have I got this totally wrong ?

'A gift deserves a gift'

The Havamal......

Also even the Gods sacrifice if you read the lore. To whom...that would be the question.

Hi Elswyth, who wrote the Lore? I bet it was a Human and not a God!
Are you a Human or some other form of life? So the relationship YOU build with the Gods is a Human one! It couldnt be any other way!

Hi Everyone,
Just as a point of interest here are some definitions of Deity:

'A Deity is a postulated preternatural or supernatural being, who is always of significant power, worshipped, thought holy, divine, or sacred, held in high regard, or respected by human beings.
Deities assume a variety of forms, but are frequently depicted as having human or animal form. Some faiths and traditions consider it blasphemous to imagine or depict the deity as having any concrete form. They are usually immortal. They are commonly assumed to have personalities and to possess consciousness, intellects, desires, and emotions similar to those of humans. Such natural phenomena as lightning, floods, storms, other 'acts of God', and miracles are attributed to them, and they may be thought to be the authorities or controllers of every aspect of human life (such as birth or the afterlife). Some deities are asserted to be the directors of time and fate itself, to be the givers of human law and morality, to be the ultimate judges of human worth and behavior, and to be the designers and creators of the Earth or the universe'

By this definition, though obviously defined by Humans and not Deities themselves, many of your points are valid.

In contrast, here are some definitions of God:

'God is most often conceived of as the creator and overseer of the universe. Theologians have ascribed a variety of attributes to the many different conceptions of God. The most common among these include omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, omnibenevolence (perfect goodness), divine simplicity, jealousy, and eternal and necessary existence. God has also been conceived as being incorporeal, a personal being, the source of all moral obligation, and the "greatest conceivable existent'.

So although I didnt see a definition of Gods, this refers to a one God, I suspect most of what we define as Gods and Goddeses are Deities. Deities I assume are Deified Concepts / Ideals, probably linked to some Architypical Heros.
Which would imply they are Human in Origin, in other words we created them!
By these standards I wouldnt want to offer any Blood to them.

I dont really have much of a problem with this as I only really worship 2 Gods, I consider them both to be Omnipotent and Male and Female in gender, In nature I consider them to be Universal Nature.
In name, I have no idea, so God and Goddess, or Mother and Father, work for me, all other Deities and Gods are for me just aspects of them, like Personality Traits.

It was a human (well several), just like the people that came up with the concept of Yin and Yang and the concept of deity were human. The people that came up with your definitions were human and subject to their own opinion of just what constitutes deity.

The concept of worshiping the masculine and feminine is also human.

Yes it's all very human.

I would venture to say that for me, the Gods were originally human but that through worship they gained power. That's not an issue for me. As a non_dualist I have no problem with ancestor worship. The thing is....in spite of the possible human origins of Gods, if we want their greater help now then there is a price.

And really....you wouldn't give blood for something as lowly as a human?

Plenty of people give blood for others every day. Yes it can be in the form of donation, it can be in the form of jumping in to save someone and biting the bullet yourself.

Blood is important, it's essential and it's precious. It's something that links us as humans.

Blood can be life and blood can be death.

To me that makes more sense than all these transcendental ideas about high falutin whatevers.

Elswyth, Ok, ok! Youve made your point!
Blood is very important and so are Humans, I know this cos I am one!
If you choose to spill your blood in Sacrifice (obviously a very 'sacred' action) then that is your choice! I have no problem with it! Just dont catch any nasty infections and tend your wound well, I'd hate for you not to be here to banter with!
I however have never felt any Gods or Deities ask me to spill blood for them, though I obviously make my own Sacrifices and yes on numerous occassions whilst doing Conservation work, I have spilt my share of blood, so although accidents, I guess it counts as I was doing it for similiar reasons!

So its very "Dark side of the Force" then?

Maybe I should include George Lucas and "The Force" in the Modern Magical Role Models?

"Fear is the Path to the Dark Side, Fear leads to Anger, Anger leads to Hate, Hate leads to suffering" or "Harm ye none, lest that harm return threefold upon ye."

Both simialr ideas?

I bet theres more Jedi's than Pagans on the census figures.



Actually Begs the Question wether The Force and being a Jedi can be construed as a stlye of magic (Before you scoff, I know of a Chaos Magician who Invoked Batman with a fair degree of sucess)

Maybe John and it would be really funny if it wasn't so destructive.

I've seen this happen too many times, usually with newbies that get attracted to the 'dark' deities and then need help.

This whole thing to my mind begs the question if my deity/goddess is benevolent and (i am convinced beyond doubt) helps me in the daily life struggle (wow!) why follow any other gods. I can't see the point. If there is all this choice and you have to get a tattoo becuase your god says you have to then change god surely! Seems a bit masochistic.
My Goddess who like CS has no name, works fine for me and has never asked me for a tattoo or mead or anything concrete. She seems to like good deeds because the more i do the more i receive (no not the threefold law).
Because my goddess has no name and therefore no tradition associatedI have a problem getting my head round this specifically foreign stuff (nordic/egyptian/mesopotamian etc) simply because if nobody had read the sagas or egyptian texts noone would know what to believe.Sort of like the bible. God is there, great, so what do i do now? Ah, here is a description of what i need to do in crimble's saga so now i know (no offense to heathens here as i am totally ignorant in the matter).
I know the gods choose the wo/man so how come they didn't choose me? The wife says i'm not worthy but then i am very happy i am not worthy (I think she meant it as a joke) .

Maybe because they can spot those that want something for nothing and those that are prepared to take responsibility and pay their dues?

You have also just answered your own question about 'why bother with that God if they want.......'

The Gods choose the woman/ man, right?

Like it or not, payment has always been a part of Paganism. We can say that it's different now and the times have changed and our ancestors were 'misguided' or whatever else we say but it all comes down to the same thing at the end of the day. Moderns are not prepared to accept and pay the cost. People always want something for nothing and when they find that it doesn't necessarily work like that - they say that that deity isn't worth the bother or whatever else and that that's not how a deity is supposed to be.

Like I said, only one God is supposed to be omnipotent and benevolent all the time....not that he is. All Gods exact their price - just look at the crusades and witchhunts....blood sacrifice if I ever did see it! At least ours are more honest about it.

Aah! a bit of healthy pagan one-upmanship.

and also elswyth, i can't see the point in discussing somethig if people just take one phrase out of a context and deal with that. I said other stuff as well.

Your entire post stank of Pagan one-upmanship.

I simply stated fact.



Oh I am sorry. It must be the way your posts are laid out. Not very readable see.... Now if you really want to make a point maybe you should look at format.

But then again, what else was there to discuss in your post?

You believe in the Goddess™ and she's very nice to you and you think that getting a tattoo as payment for something a deity does for you is masochistic.

Oooh claws out again! grrr grrr.

Agreed It's just the nature of the gifts both ways I'm having trouble with. Before I ever was a Pagan, even when I was briefly a Xtian in my teens, I had shelter, food, a certain amount of disposable wealth etc. So I don't see these as coming from the Gods. My son is a blessing in my life but he is also my husband's child and he doesn't believe in my Gods. So can I count his safe birth and health their gift ? If you never ask for anything how do you now what has come from the Gods. I see things as coming from my own efforts, but my mental strength being sustained by the Gods.

I know that since I found my path I have gained immeasurably in knowledge, health, calm, happiness, insight and courage. These things I count as gifts from the Gods, which have been given unasked for and unanticipated. I just can't get my head around making a material sacrifice in this way. Maybe I'm not experienced enough to understand what you mean. To me the old ways are there and knowledge of them should be preserved, but in today's world some of them have lost their meaning. This feeling is one of the reasons I've hesitated to call myself Heathen, so this debate is really helping me. I don't mean to be argumentative, Elswyth, or to disrespect your view. I'm just trying to winkle out more about your experiences

Very interesting thread.

Personally, I feel that as all archetypes are man-made (loved John's post about Batman!), blood and especially human sacrifice did not originate with the gods and archetypes but with the powermongers who wanted to be special and control their fellow men. Priests and kings and polititians....

Having said that, I think that once an archetype/god is "out there", with associative human sacrifice/dark forces, that the quantum universe/serendipity and mankind's beliefs will send these things their way...

So I mainly believe in fairly positive stuff (yes, positively fluffy!) and so the dark things have no dominion over me. Or so goes the hope! Certainly I do feel there is enough to be contending against in this world with man's evil to man, without feeling that the gods I subscribe to might be against me as well and want to brealk the back of my enemies (and quite possibly me if I don't sacrifice enough or in the proscribed manner). With enough blood.