I love Stonehenge and though many of the more 'upright' neo-pagans are now going to Avebury [or going elsewhere] at Summer Solstice, Stonehenge will always remain the place to be at Summer Solsitce for me - maybe because I remember the days of the 'Battle of the Beanfield' and the struggle to access the stones over the ensuing years, or maybe because I simply prefer a more Bachanalian atmosphere rather than being forced to participate in some 'self-righteous' ritualistic spectacle that I often feel is more entertainment than a spiritual experience.

Its seems a shame that after all the years of struggle to gain access to the stones that many neo-pagans have now abondoned Stonehenge, complaining that Stonehenge is now simply an orgy for the less spiritualy inclined, using Stonehenge as a new symbol to mean 'un-initiated' and publicly announcing that they will be watching the sun rise elsewhere amongst more 'initated' people, at sites that the general public know little about.

I would agree that Stonehenge is most certainly an orgy at Summer Solstice, and there are the odd few who attend that have little regard for the sanctity of the time or place [a consequence of being such a well known place], but one must remember that the word 'orgia' refers to the mysteries of Dionysius and it would seem that most who do come to Stonehenge do have an inner attraction to some mystery, even though they may not know exactly how to define that feeling or what to do with such a feeling, thus it would be nice if 'real' neo-pagans did not abondon such people [or such a place] in their own 'self righteous' attempt to BE more spiritual elsewhere.

Last year I took two friends with me, neither of whom are Pagan, yet they so enjoyed the experience they have spoken about it regularly since and both have 'demanded' we go again this year. So tonight we will be getting into the car with some brollys [it might rain] a picnic blanket and some food and wine and off we will be going to Stonehenge once again to watch the sun rise over the Hele Stone and to be honest Im really looking forward to it and the opportunity to just BE rather than try and be a 'proper' pagan.

I tend to feel Stonhenge is fulfilling the role it was built for, in all the revellry, though the mini battles between the different Covens, etc probably isnt right and I suspect on the Ancient Equivalent of our HPs and other Tribal Leaders would have been the only ones allowed within the Henge itself, having all discussed previously their roles a the Ceremony and knowing their places. The rest of the folk I suspect would have been there for the party, trade, networking, etc.
I personally am working, so will not be doing or going anywhere tonight, though I do watch most Sunrises!
I personally feel I would like to attend Stonehenge at least once, for the atmosphere. But as a Site I prefer Avebury anyway, though I suspect both sites were interconnected in their use rather than seperate, it may even be that Avebury is where the party should be, it seems better suited for the purpose to me, Stonehenge is somehow more private.
Personally I would prefer to be at one of the lesser known sites in Cornwall, on my own or in a very small group!

Wow. another one with attitude.
'upright' neo-pagans
'self-righteous'
'real' neo-pagans
just BE rather than try and be a 'proper' pagan

You DO have a problem don't you .

Though for me 'a picnic blanket and some food and wine'
sums up exactly why i would not go. Have a good time and don't forget to take the sound system with you.

I'll be going somewhere that people respect the place they have the good fortune to be able to get access too, unlike Stonehenge which was still smelling like a urinal four days after the Solstice last year.

I often wonder if those who fought so hard for access (those that actually knew what they were fighting for rather than the ones who just like any fight with 'authority') would have fought so hard if they knew what the Stonehenge Open Access was going to turn into?

I'm going the week after, for Sunrise, when the Stones will be a lot quieter but still very enjoyable. Chemical cocktails, excessive drinking, constant drumming and a four hour queue to get off the car park because half the vehicles are unroadworthy and breakdown in awkward places, may be some people's idea of fun, but it certainly isn't mine.

Rhiannon

I am one of those who fought to get access to the stones (I still have the bruises ). But i was young and the 'culture' at the time was more respectful and i don't realise just how sick the society was going to get. Now i am (well i would be if i had the opportunity) fighting to get them closed again.

I will be @ Avebury for the Solstice.
For me personally Avebury is the place to be as the whole landscape like Stonehenge is marvellous and covered with ancient sacred mounds, stones, a holy spring and a plethora of old world pagan sites.

Ps. Not forgetting a great pub with good ale etc right in the centre of the circle too!

I don't usually bother travelling for the Midsummer Solstice. For me it's one of the less important festivals. Winter Solstice - that I can feel in my bones.


There did seem to be a certain amount of self-righteousness in the original post.

Yep I certainly do have a problem with the ATTITUDE of 'upright/tight, self righteous woozles who would not go to Stonehenge because others took a picnic blanket, food and wine .

However I do hope you have a nice Solstice at your nice proper little austere pagan gathering/ritual wherever that be, be it in your own private fairy revealed grove or a hidden sacred site that the general public cant possibly contaminate with their gross unspiritual energies .

Wow. No self-righteousness there at all, hardly.

Ive heard people rant and rave about the rubbish and every other conceivable criticism from the noise to the crowds, but to be honest, using last year as an example, though the car park was full, the amount of people around the stones at the time of sunrise was very pleasent and certinaly not what I would regard as crowded. There was very minimal queing to leave, there was not what I would regard as excessive dringing and certainly no overt drug taking or vast amounts of rubbish and the drumming was very pleasent even restrained and I didnt once see any one peeing or climbing the stones. In fact the whole atmposphere was extremely pleasent and very friendly and the only people who seem to be spreading this kind of negativity about Solstice at Stonehenge are those so far up their own spiritual arses that they are unable to see daylight.

If you actualy think the culture was more respectfull then you obviously were not there - or simply living in some kind of drug induced Steve Hillage bubble.

I've never been to stonehenge for soltsice, mainly cos I don't like crowds, but if this bickering is typical of the people who do turn up, I'm glad I've never been. Why bother asking a question if you're just going to have a go at anyone that answers it?

Well that's good, looks like things have improved since 2003

Youtube


dav

Avebury for Summer, Stone Henge in mid-winter. My preference.

Rollright for Samhain and Tinkinswood for Beltane...two other hugely enjoyable festivals and places.

Considering the music that accompanied that video it would seem to suggest that the person who took those pictures was certainly seeing Stonehenge through their own particular tinny drinking, splif smoking 'rock' lense [which does not necessarily mean that was the general artmosphere for everyone else]. However the 'crowd' last year was no where near as large, only being 'crowded' within the stones itself, thereafter very very thinnly spread outside for no more than 30/40ft beyond the stones.

hey wozzle can we all join you in that bubble seems like alot more fun than watching silly gits treating stonehenge as a party site

Though the main Trilthions at Stonehenge are aligned with the mid winter Solstice sunset and archaeolgical evidence seems to suggest midwinter feasting at Woodhenge, suggesting that the mid-winter was the main focus of the year for these monuments, I still prefer Mid-Summer Solstice at Stonehenge and it is significant in my view that throughout history the Summer Solstice traditions at Stonehenge seemed to have survived longer - though maybe thats because like me most people just havnt got the stamina to deal with the British winter and prefer to remain close to home at that time .

and thus also keep uptight self righteous gits from coming to Stonehenge and raining on everyones joy - perhaps after all its a good thing that religious types are all going elsewhere - and may they forever stay away from Stonehenge

thank god im not so up myself to give a damn all that bothers me is the damage being done to a truely wonderful place.
those stones travelled so far lasted so long and get treated as climbing walls and chairs by silly twonks thats just disrespect.
things like stonehenge should be there for all to enjoy for many years and not be run down. i hope one day the guardians of the stones give back to those that disrespect the sight.
how the hell can you watch the solstice come up over the stones when there are hundreds of people packed in getting plastered.
truely a wonder being wasted by those who claim to be pagan but obviously dont really know what they are doing

I would love to go to stonehenge just once for the experience but the experience would be in seeing the sun rise over the stones and feeling the magick and beauty in it. I cant see how anyone can feel spiritual when there are million of people getting drunk and playing music. I would loved to have gone before all the hype. I have been to avebury and think its lovely. I wish people had more respect for land marks though. Stonehenge has been there for a long time but the way people treat it now it wont be for much longer. I think if i could stop people being able to go up to the stones i would. It would be a shame but id rather that than seeing them distroyed.

Oh dear. Well as always its my good fortune to only just arrive somewhere and whats the first post I click on ???? Something which yearly sends me off on a rant

However because I dont want to cause ructions the minute I arrive I would just like to ask people to view the whole Stonehenge thing from a local perspective.

Its a particularly unpleasant time of year and the danger around the 303 is made a hundred times worse than usual, and all caused by people who I feel care more about the stones than they do about the people who live with them on a daily basis.

I myself will be spending the solstice at home in my garden remembering that all land is sacred and worth honouring.

By the way ............ its raining

Espicially about the last line

good on you comfry

Rant away Comfrey i'm sure nobody will mind.
Not being funny but what is 303 and when you say those who live with them on a daily basis who are you referring to?

Like the last line too, very true.

Oh sorry Woozle, I'll explain. The 303 is the main road going through Amesbury towards Salisbury and east to west past Stonehenge.

Its a death trap and its made so much worse at times like the Solstice.

Those who live with them are the residents of the villages around the Henge who have a constant plethora of "informed" opinion of what should happen to the area, from people who dont live there and yet still consider themselves experts simply because they believe themselves to be Pagan.

The people who are living and breathing and coping with day to day life NOW should be considered first I believe and I'm quite sure the ancestors will forgive us our selfishness.

The Henge doesn't belong to anyone, it belongs to us all.

Failing that, there's always Barry Island!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7463669.stm

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

We visited four days after the Solstice open access last year and the Stones still smelt strongly of piss. A friend of mine who was there last year said that there was no shortage of various drugs, and people he didn't know were sharing them out publicly, so yes, there was overt drug taking.

It only took two days to clear up all the rubbish this time - the new contractors made a very good job of it. In previous years when we have visited after the Solstice, and after the official clean up, we've still managed to fill several bin bags. The rubbish clearing is our way of giving something back to the Site and to English Heritage for allowing us the private dawn access.

There was also video footage of people climbing on the Stones - some people don't consider the fallen stones to be 'the Stones' and use them to sit/stand on through the night.

However, I'm glad that I don't enjoy the behaviour of the main open access event, otherwise I might never have bothered to sort out private access and would have missed out on some truly amazing and spiritual experiences.

Rhiannon

Forgot to mention - the year before last someone carved a triple moon into one of the Stones during the Open Access celebrations.

(The Stones are photographed regularly so EH were aware of exactly which day the damage took place.)

"Over the Wire" By New Model Army.

And that's all I have to say about that.

Gotcha. Thanks. It must be hell on a daily basis.

I suppose one will see, hear, smell, touch and taste what they prefer to see, hear, smell, touch and taste and one cannot deny that persons experience, yet there is that ol biblical saying:

'To the pure all things are pure'

I suppose that is very true to some extent, what some see as crowds another will see as a gathering, what some see as drugs others will see as indulgence, what some see as rubbish others may see as simply fallout, what some see as sacred others see as sin. Of course this doesnt deny that there are some things that are best avoided for the common and personal 'good', and that there are those who do have little regard for the common or personal 'good', however in many respects such things are simply relative to how one prefers to see it.

Synophiucus
What would your perception of road congestion, accidents (my son almost lost his life at the Countess roundabout a couple of years ago!) and drunken idiots staggering around a normally peaceful town??

What I call it isnt printable

Unfortunately there are situations one must accept and if one cannot accept them change them.

In regard to ancient 'sacred' sites one would then assume that if one was to apply the above view to every 'pagan' site in Britian, each local resident, from the evangelical Xian to the Atheist, should have a say in how it is used, AND ONLY THOSE LOCAL RESIDENTS - and we all know that the usual response is to keep outsiders out and restrict 'progress' for each 'selfish' want and preception - even the Rollrights should then be handed over to the local residents to do with as they so feel.

However Stonehenge DOES belong to everyone, and if one cannot accept that at certain times of the year certain groups will want to visit such sites then it is about time one decides to change the location in which one lives, or simply adjust/change ones everyday living routine to accomodate that access.

However I agree it is a matter of compromise and visitors should consider the needs of the local community and act responsibly [WHICH TO BE HONEST IS NOW BEING ENFORCED - AND LARGE NUMBERS OF PEOPLE MUST ALWAYS BE TREATED ACCORDINGLY - WHICH COMMON SENSE DICTATES], but as I said it is a compromise and the local community should likewise act responsibly and consider the needs of those who wish to access the site and no one group should be considered FIRST simply because they had the good fortune to live nearer to a place so many others just dream about visiting.

since the topic of this thread was where to 'real' pagans go for solstice from the answers in this and another thread i can safely assume avebury or somewhere that is relevant to our own path.

this due to stonehenge although being a wonderful place is not always central to a 'real' pagan to join the fluffies making a fool of themselves one night of the year.

comfrey my heart goes out to you having to suffer that disturbance. if people were more reponsible, i'm sure your life would be easier and your worries about people visiting would be calmed.

right rant over i'm back off to perch on the cliffs ready for my own solstice.

I've been pagan all my life, and only been to Stonehenge twice. And you know what I found when I was there ? Not the uplifting surge of spirit that I found with Avebury, and have felt at other places at intervals throught the years, but a deep dark, resentful energy. It was as if the place just wanted to be left alone.

It is my understanding that it fell into disuse in the past and that is how it preferred things.

I do not understand how people who are supposed to be so in tune with energies cannot see the damage and disrespect they are a part of by gathering at the Henge and having the kind of brainless 'fun' that has been seen on videos of the solstice 'celebration' year upon year upon year.

Spiritual? Respectful ? I dont think so.

I will be greeting the dawn wrapped in a chenille blanket in my back garden in the middle of a city.

Does Stonehenge belong to all of us? What does it mean to say that something belongs to you - that you can appropriate it to your own purposes regardless of the effect it has on others?

We can't all appropriate it simultaneously, so I think it's meaningless to claim that Stonehenge belongs to all of us. It belongs to those who appropriate it, and the rest of us who might have wanted to experience it in a different way are prevented by those who make the most noise.

Like our neighbour opposite, who this evening, as most evenings, revs up his vehicles in his drive for ten minutes at a time. I think he must think we all want to hear and admire how marvellously loudly he can make his engines vibrate. What can anyone do but keep away and hope the noisy ones will shut up soon?

Persactly

well it was a damp and dreary dawn here on Salisbury plain, but happy solstice everyone.

Just going back to the henge for a mo...............

Strictly it actually was left by its last owner to the residents of Amesbury, Shrewton, Durrington and Netheravon.

Given that I live in the latter I reckon perhaps I have a good case

Mmmmm Not many things get my back up but dissing NMA has to come top of the list. It's a wonderful song - listen to the words !!. Mini rant over.

Seriously it's this kind of behaviour - the prevalence of drugs and alcohol and associated malarkey - that keeps me from attending bigger Pagan events in RL. I can't bear it. I think there's more than a little room for a more austere approach, or at least something that is family friendly instead of festivals that attract a large number of hangers on. It's this kind of behaviour that stops us being taken seriously as much as King Kev and his ilk.

Well said. I made a lot of enemies arguing this point rather publically. But I still stand by every word.

IF we are going to be represented by people and IF they are going to be perceived as the voice of Paganism then we owe it to ourselves to ensure those voices are respectable at the very least.

Sadly this isnt the case and until we find an end to Pagan apathy and the "if it dont directly hurt me I'm not interested" attitude so prevalent, then I doubt anything will change any day soon

Trying not to bash anyone's religion here, but your mention of family Snippety made me think that i would LIKE sometime to go to stonehenge with my family on solstice, but i can't because i don't think it is a family affair as it is at the moment. It annoys me that any famous cathedral open to the public all year would then be respected and closed to drumming public, music, drugs, cigaretts and rubbish during services. People have respect for cathedrals, even non christians. Christians have respect for their places of cult. It seems that stonehenge is not considered such in the normal way of things. I am not generally in favour of large pagan organisations but as they exist i would very much like to see them attempt to restore decorum to stonehenge (maybe they have already tried). I don't mean shut everyone out (though i would under present circumstances) but ensure that PEACE and everyone's right to quiet reflection is respected.
In the youtube clip there was a weirdo banging on his drums for most of it. How is that anything to do with pagan worship in this context? To me you can have festivals take drugs, play music, go mad whatever it takes to keep you happy, but not at stonehenge or any other site of 'religious' interest.

Woozle, there were 30,000 people there this year

Certainly wasn't dissing it! I've followed NMA for about 25 years now. (oh and I paid my own way, unlike the great unwashed "followers" that used to beg outside every gig)
I digress though, Snippety I agree whole heartedly with your sentiments about the gatherings at Stonehenge.

Sbadank! (sound of woozle falling to floor in shock)

I know

Imagine all those people converging on once eensy weensy little place all at one time. And folks wonder why it makes me so cross.

The locals, (pagan and otherwise) have been driven from their home circle because someone, somewhere designated it "the place to be" and sadly Avebury is going the same way (but dont get me going on that, I always end up blowing a blood vessel)

I dont know why people dont go to their own sacred spaces, if they feel they need to go anywhere. After all Britain is awash with them. It really doesnt matter if they aren't "grand"

Surely they would have more empathy for the land they walk on, than some place miles away from what they know

I is very confuzzled by it all.

Even if they weren't at the wrong end of the whole world, I think I'd steer clear of both. My enjoyment of any given event tends to vary in inverse proportion to the number of people present, particularly if they aren't there for the same reasons.

Isn't there a motorway running right past stonehenge or something, anyway? A definite no-no for me.

No its the A303 and its a way from it really. Thats the big bone of contention actually, because it filters into a small single lane road just before the Stonehenge turning and its there where a lot of the congestion and/or accidents happen

The locals are very much of the opinion that a small overtaking lane could probably solve much of the issues, but the voice of Paganism (that is those who shout loudest but dont live within a hundred miles of the place) say it would be sacrilege because of the earthworks or something.

The fact that the road is there anyway, and a small widening of it would do very little damage, and certainly less damage and FAR less cost than the alternatives is apparently unimportant and local opinion even less so